How does it feel to be in a profession dominated by women? :p

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Speaking of superhero movies, I still would argue that women are far more objectified than men. Just look at how men are posed vs women.

http://feministing.com/2012/05/09/wh...y-superheroes/

Originally Posted by wigflip

Aw, shucks, thank you.

I know that I don't want male colleagues, students, or superiors (profs or otherwise) to make assumptions about me based on me being a woman (i.e. that I need to be treated as though I'm fragile, catered to as someone who is assumed to like some stereotypical cluster of "feminine" things). I would consider that to be paternalistic. I really just want to be treated equally, boobs and all.

As Pat Parker writes in "For the white person who wants to know how to be my friend":

"The first thing you do is to forget that i'm Black.
Second, you must never forget that i'm Black."

The entire poem can be found here (there are typos though ):
http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/Poems/white.htm

I think the deceptively simple principle for multi-/cross-cultural things (including gender) is to keep in mind that group or privilege factors play into things, but you can’t assume a person is group norms personified, either. It’s an incredibly difficult thing for everyone to balance, and I think it’s impossible to perfect. I think it's also important to remember that privilege isn't an all-or-nothing thing and that all people are more likely to notice the privilege they lack than the privilege they have (for example, I lack male and able-bodied privilege, but I have White, Christian, heterosexual, middle class, etc. privilege. Both the privilege I have and that that I lack affect me and how I view the world).

(And while we’re talking about privilege, can I go off a slight tangent about how much I HATE RUNNING? Or, rather, how much I hate the attitude that running is *everything*, that it is the only thing worth doing, that it is Jesus/heaven/nirvana /ecstasy/life/the meaning of everything/the cure for everything/whathaveyou, etc.? I’m a martial arts student, and I grew up relatively athletic (skiing, cycling, swimming, horseback riding, etc) in a relatively athletic family, so I’m not opposed to or unappreciative or athleticism, really. But as someone who has never—and will never—be able to run, I don’t get running at all. I don’t understand what it is in the slightest. It’s my blind man’s sunset, and I’m *so* tired of constantly hearing about how it is perfect and wonderful and how just everyone should do it or they can’t be human and Nike ads as FB profile pics and so on and so forth. /rant over)

Please ignore if too personal, but would you mind saying what your disability is? I'm just a little confused because you say you do martial arts and are athletic, and from an athletic family. Is it that you don't like running because you can't run or you find it pointless as an exercise? The reason I'm interested is, in part, because I am overweight and I permanently damaged my knees several years ago when I completely ignored what my body was telling me and engaged in a game of soccer with a few people. So I can't run/jog either. But I was never athletic to begin with. But personally I hate walking. I actually rather jog. Walking bores the hell out of me.

If it helps, I hate running. High-impact exercises aren't the best on your joints, too.

Originally Posted by futureapppsy2

I think the deceptively simple principle for multi-/cross-cultural things (including gender) is to keep in mind that group or privilege factors play into things, but you can’t assume a person is group norms personified, either. It’s an incredibly difficult thing for everyone to balance, and I think it’s impossible to perfect. I think it's also important to remember that privilege isn't an all-or-nothing thing and that all people are more likely to notice the privilege they lack than the privilege they have (for example, I lack male and able-bodied privilege, but I have White, Christian, heterosexual, middle class, etc. privilege. Both the privilege I have and that that I lack affect me and how I view the world).

(And while we’re talking about privilege, can I go off a slight tangent about how much I HATE RUNNING? Or, rather, how much I hate the attitude that running is *everything*, that it is the only thing worth doing, that it is Jesus/heaven/nirvana /ecstasy/life/the meaning of everything/the cure for everything/whathaveyou, etc.? I’m a martial arts student, and I grew up relatively athletic (skiing, cycling, swimming, horseback riding, etc) in a relatively athletic family, so I’m not opposed to or unappreciative or athleticism, really. But as someone who has never—and will never—be able to run, I don’t get running at all. I don’t understand what it is in the slightest. It’s my blind man’s sunset, and I’m *so* tired of constantly hearing about how it is perfect and wonderful and how just everyone should do it or they can’t be human and Nike ads as FB profile pics and so on and so forth. /rant over)

Sure, and I think you sum it up pretty well. But I think privilege also goes well beyond just innate/acquired characteristics such as gender/disability/race. I still think that SES is one of the biggest (and most often ignored in these types of discussions) issues in the oppression discussion. Also parenting - not within a child's control and can have a major impact on later development.

Yes, and I think passing laws that address all these subtleties is a nightmare. Think Affirmative Action controversies times a thousand. It would require a complete remodeling of the whole justice system. It would be a very much individualized, psychologized approach to the various ways the person is/not privileged. It can never be fully scientific and objective either.

I know that I don't want male colleagues, students, or superiors (profs or otherwise) to make assumptions about me based on me being a woman (i.e. that I need to be treated as though I'm fragile, catered to as someone who is assumed to like some stereotypical cluster of "feminine" things). I would consider that to be paternalistic. I really just want to be treated equally, boobs and all.

Hmm. That can be tough in the context of everything else. Pragma mentioned (I think) that he thought he wasn't intimidating. I didn't think I was either but I have been told repeatedly by women that I am, and, once, without me ever uttering a word. I've tried to, I think successfully, soften my demeanor. But, I do think there can be a problem with equality, boobs and all, as you say. Amongst my male colleagues, the back and forth ribbing is quite aggressive, often sexually tinged, and definitely competitive. I do not do that with my female colleagues. If I did, I'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. Generally speaking, ripping on a woman for their fat butt and commenting on their boobs is frowned upon. But, unfortunately, this can have the potential to create a divide. A boys club, if you will.

It can never be fully scientific and objective either

I agree. It's population data applied to individuals. I think the privilege movement as applied to individuals needs to die quickly. It's only harmful.

"How does it feel to be in a profession dominated by women?"

More like, how does it feel to be the one guy surrounded by a bevy of marriage-hungry women operating under the "after age 30 chances of autism increase" mindset?

Ummm, pretty sweet thank you very much.

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

Hmm. That can be tough in the context of everything else. Pragma mentioned (I think) that he thought he wasn't intimidating. I didn't think I was either but I have been told repeatedly by women that I am, and, once, without me ever uttering a word. I've tried to, I think successfully, soften my demeanor. But, I do think there can be a problem with equality, boobs and all, as you say. Amongst my male colleagues, the back and forth ribbing is quite aggressive, often sexually tinged, and definitely competitive. I do not do that with my female colleagues. If I did, I'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. Generally speaking, ripping on a woman for their fat butt and commenting on their boobs is frowned upon. But, unfortunately, this can have the potential to create a divide. A boys club, if you will.

Perhaps the sexually tinged ribbing is as inappropriate with men as it would be with women?

Originally Posted by G Costanza

Perhaps the sexually tinged ribbing is as inappropriate with men as it would be with women?

Is this a form of office homoeroticism? I don't know the experience you guys are talking about, but I can be pretty unaware, so...what does "sexually tinged ribbing" with other men actually mean?

Originally Posted by BlackSkirtTetra

Is this a form of office homoeroticism? I don't know the experience you guys are talking about, but I can be pretty unaware, so...what does "sexually tinged ribbing" with other men actually mean?

It's pretty simple, guys insult each other as a form of bonding. Sometimes the insults involve sexual content. I'm a guy so I can say I have experience with it, but honestly I've avoided that kind of male bonding over my lifetime - just makes me very uncomfortable and I've rarely been able to respond in some sort of lighthearted manner to this kind of stuff. In the end virtually all of my close friends are women, and I work in a workplace that's 90% women. Go figure.

Originally Posted by G Costanza

Perhaps the sexually tinged ribbing is as inappropriate with men as it would be with women?

Inappropriate in what sense? Sexual harassment is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder sometimes as far as how the law applies, at least, that's my understanding.

Originally Posted by thepug

"How does it feel to be in a profession dominated by women?"

More like, how does it feel to be the one guy surrounded by a bevy of marriage-hungry women operating under the "after age 30 chances of autism increase" mindset?

Ummm, pretty sweet thank you very much.

Hahahaha.

I ended up going to the more gender balanced program of the one's I was considering, so it shouldn't be 'as bad' for me, but I remember one of the schools I interviewed at had exactly 1 male student out of nearly 30.

Originally Posted by JeyRo

It's pretty simple, guys insult each other as a form of bonding. Sometimes the insults involve sexual content. I'm a guy so I can say I have experience with it, but honestly I've avoided that kind of male bonding over my lifetime - just makes me very uncomfortable and I've rarely been able to respond in some sort of lighthearted manner to this kind of stuff. In the end virtually all of my close friends are women, and I work in a workplace that's 90% women. Go figure.

Yeah I can say that guys do this. But I have never had this form of communication with other male psychologists.

Edit: Just doesn't really seem to fit how I relate to other men in this field, or how I see other male professional relationships. Maybe giving each other a little bit of crap, but not slapping each other with towels in the locker room

a little bit of crap yes.

I also haven't had these types of interactions with psychologists. But, physicians are another story. I tend to go with what the social milieu is and to keep things light hearted. If guys enjoy ripping each other, fine. I can play that game perfectly well. And, I don't think it's a big deal. Some of those guys also interact with women the same way. I find that to be very risky. Though it seems to be fine, you run into one differently minded woman who takes a joke seriously or just generally doesn't like that kind of humor and they can wreck your career.

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

a little bit of crap yes.

I also haven't had these types of interactions with psychologists. But, physicians are another story. I tend to go with what the social milieu is and to keep things light hearted. If guys enjoy ripping each other, fine. I can play that game perfectly well. And, I don't think it's a big deal. Some of those guys also interact with women the same way. I find that to be very risky. Though it seems to be fine, you run into one differently minded woman who takes a joke seriously or just generally doesn't like that kind of humor and they can wreck your career.

Yeah, generally making comments about someone else's physical characteristics (if that is what you are alluding to) doesn't fly.

I definitely see your point and it has to do with the potential for someone to accuse you of misconduct that could tarnish your reputation/career. I agree and I wish it weren't that way. I've complained about that here (I think in this very thread). The level of subjectivity involved in what is funny/what isn't funny creates a lot of risk.

Yeah, generally making comments about someone else's physical characteristics (if that is what you are alluding to) doesn't fly.

Yes, it just depends. For example, sometimes, with one fellow in our group, I might tease them for being out of shape. I think I've used the term "moob" on occasion. They might tease me for being a nerd. I might then rip him for not publishing anything. You get the picture.

"I definitely see your point and it has to do with the potential for someone to accuse you of misconduct that could tarnish your reputation/career. I agree and I wish it weren't that way. I've complained about that here (I think in this very thread). The level of subjectivity involved in what is funny/what isn't funny creates a lot of risk. "

Yes, exactly. So, no women jokes, no teasing women for lack of productivity, etc. . . I think it is the competitive element to this that is problematic. If I go play a sport, say basketball, I am going to talk trash, and generally attempt to be disruptive to my opponents ability to concentrate. This is still in good fun. It's a game. It's a very common way for guys to interact. It's the same thing in the office, it's a way of motivating (e.g., bringing up finishing a manuscript at every opportunity in front of large groups of people until I get a copy). Of course, now all the women here probably think I'm a complete arsehole. And hell, it's probably true.

I always thought that heterosexual men teasing one another about being gay, doing gay things, etc. implicated homophobia with a homoerotic undertone...especially when they joke about doing gay things together.

The whole giving each other crap piece seems pretty normative for most of my guyfriends. They are a little more sensitive with me, but definitely ream one another for the slightest thing.

When it comes to the workplace/professional setting I guess it all comes down to how comfortable you become with another colleague or coworker. However, even if you become close friends with your coworker in an office (which I did), you tend to behave more appropriately when at work together to match the professional setting anyway.

I always thought that heterosexual men teasing one another about being gay, doing gay things, etc. implicated homophobia with a homoerotic undertone...especially when they joke about doing gay things together.

I think teasing people about being gay is crass and insensitive to people that are gay. In short, it's stupid.

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

I think teasing people about being gay is crass and insensitive to people that are gay. In short, it's stupid.

Yeah I haven't really encountered that since high school. I mean, haven't you seen the commercials?

Joking because I think they could do a lot better job with a public awareness campaign.

Originally Posted by Jon Snow

I think teasing people about being gay is crass and insensitive to people that are gay. In short, it's stupid.

I agree. I also agree that good-natured ribbing can be a fun way of bonding if done appropriately. It puts me on edge when people are completely humoroless about themselves. However, it can definitely cross into dangerous territory when it comes to discussing people's bodies as opposed to, say, publication records. At least, that's how I would categorize things.

Out of utter curiosity, how do you feel about heterosexual men poking fun at each other by calling each other "girls" or other feminine terms? I've never heard this in a professional setting, but I certainly hear it all the time otherwise. "You're such a little girl," "You throw like a girl," etc.

Originally Posted by KillerDiller

However, it can definitely cross into dangerous territory when it comes to discussing people's bodies as opposed to, say, publication records. At least, that's how I would categorize things.

Actually, I know several people who are more sensitive about their publication records than they probably are about their bodies. I can't imagine a joke about pubs ever being laughed about, and it probably would have been a big issue in my lab - but that's just the people I am around I guess.

Originally Posted by Pragma

Actually, I know several people who are more sensitive about their publication records than they probably are about their bodies. I can't imagine a joke about pubs ever being laughed about, and it probably would have been a big issue in my lab - but that's just the people I am around I guess.

For what its worth, I had the exact same reaction. Being called a balding fat ass would be much easier for me to laugh off than being called an unproductive scientist. I'd make the case that joking about publication records is where things cross into dangerous territory, but I'm guessing that isn't what KD meant Of course, that also speaks to some of the broader issues discussed in this thread (us being male and all) and the substantive implications and value placed on professional success versus appearance in males and females.

Well, given the discussion about guys "ribbing" each other so far, I'd have to say that at least in my experience, it's no fun if it is a benign ribbing.

You want to get under each other's skin. So generally you crack a joke about something that you know is going to bother the person, provided it is actually funny (e.g., you wouldn't tell the guy that just got divorced that it looks like he's been "sleeping a lot better" lately to mock his lack of a sex life). There is some kind of a boundary that I think is clear to a lot of people, but is fuzzier to some. But since guys are expected to dish it out, you grow some thicker skin and move on. Generally a group of people provides feedback to someone who crosses the line.

While I may even still enjoy these kinds of back-and-forths between my close friends every now and again, I have never once allowed anything like this to be a part of professional relationships. Too risky, people have subjective views of where the fuzzy line is, and the consequences are very significant. Cracking a joke about a manuscript that isn't published yet is the kind of thing that would have gotten you a harsh talking to in my lab with my mentor. Saying anything that might even remotely offend a female scares me even more.

I guess my reasoning is that I have more control over my publications (or lack thereof) than over the way I look. Consequently, a remark about something I wrote isn't hitting below the belt; it's hitting an area that I'm capable of defending. I don't really have control over my looks. I suppose I could go out and get elective surgery, but that seems like a different sort of "control" all together.

Anyway, shockingly, I wasn't speaking for all females. We didn't have a conference and decide that publication records are fair game, but our bodies are not. I'm sure there are women on here who feel exactly the opposite. Like with most things, it comes down to an individual preference. We try not to tease others about things that we know cross the line with that person.

I'd still like to hear about what people think about guys who call each other "girls" all the time.

I see your point - I just think it speaks to the different priorities. We certainly have some degree of control over our appearance. Depending on one's mentor and/or school, I know many who might argue one has MORE control over something like appearance Joking aside, they certainly are different and I don't know any who would argue otherwise. To me its just an issue of what would be more likely to be taken seriously. Ribbing about my receding hairline isn't going to "hurt" quite like a comment on my nearly heroic ability to produce null findings. As you said though - we are individuals and are not speaking on behalf of our gender, but I do think its interesting that things seem to have broken down in the way I'd hypothesize.

As for guys calling eachother "girls"...truth be told I haven't heard it in a long time. Honestly, I more frequently hear women saying it about men or other women. Back in HS was of course another story entirely. My sample is likely biased though, since the majority of my close friends are female. As for how I feel about it...that I don't know. At this age, if I heard it I'd probably tell them to at least try and be a little more creative! To me it just seems too immature to take great offense to relative to some of the other things that have been discussed...sort of a "People know not to take it seriously" situation. Then again, that's my social circle. I'm certain others experiences are very different.

Hmm. The closest ive gotten to calling someone a girl was mocking a former high school quarterback physician in my lab who managed to get smashed in tennis by a tiny woman. I was told they were going to play then didn't hear anything about it the next day. So in both their presence I started off with. "so she kicked your arse?". And then we are off from there


In my lab, we have a term for not writing papers, abulic agraphia. And we do everything we can to fix it. If that requires a little ribbing, fine.

Originally Posted by FemmeFeline

I always thought that heterosexual men teasing one another about being gay, doing gay things, etc. implicated homophobia with a homoerotic undertone...especially when they joke about doing gay things together.

The whole giving each other crap piece seems pretty normative for most of my guyfriends. They are a little more sensitive with me, but definitely ream one another for the slightest thing.

I'm gonna address your post but also make some comments not directly related to your post. I think you're reading too much into this. Maybe this is the legacy of certain elements of psychoanalysis, to see homoeroticism where there is none, where every little thing you do or say has some deep implication, like the idea that a patient who is late on session is expressing hostility towards the analyst. And I don't know many straight guys (or gay guys for that matter) who routinely talk about doing "gay things together" but I do know that sexuality is often a component of the teasing and bonding that does take place. Yes, it's not PC at all, it's juvenile in many ways, but it's the nature of male friendships, and I think it's one thing to ask people to behave in public places and another to try to impose an artificial definition/label from the outside, in order to pathologize a certain behavior.

I'm curious as to how women bond. Do they tease each other too, making comments on each other's bodies, sexually loaded ones? Something as crude as "well, you should come with us, your fat ass is gonna drive some guys nuts." In my experience quite a smaller portion of them do and usually with people they are much closer to. But I could be wrong.

Lastly, I think women get away with much more when they are teasing guys or touching them. I have never touched a woman at work though several of the secretaries routinely touch my hands to draw my attention to something or in response to something I say, almost as if to say "don't be silly."

Originally Posted by Ollie123

a balding fat ass

What a strange phrase, even in context!

I'm curious as to how women bond. Do they tease each other too, making comments on each other's bodies, sexually loaded ones? Something as crude as "well, you should come with us, your fat ass is gonna drive some guys nuts."

I have never experienced this.

Originally Posted by Pragma

Actually, I know several people who are more sensitive about their publication records than they probably are about their bodies. I can't imagine a joke about pubs ever being laughed about, and it probably would have been a big issue in my lab - but that's just the people I am around I guess.

I think it's easier to lose weight than get published! Haha.

Originally Posted by cara susanna

I think it's easier to lose weight than get published! Haha.

Well probably faster

Originally Posted by Iwillheal

I'm gonna address your post but also make some comments not directly related to your post. I think you're reading too much into this. Maybe this is the legacy of certain elements of psychoanalysis, to see homoeroticism where there is none, where every little thing you do or say has some deep implication, like the idea that a patient who is late on session is expressing hostility towards the analyst. And I don't know many straight guys (or gay guys for that matter) who routinely talk about doing "gay things together" but I do know that sexuality is often a component of the teasing and bonding that does take place. Yes, it's not PC at all, it's juvenile in many ways, but it's the nature of male friendships, and I think it's one thing to ask people to behave in public places and another to try to impose an artificial definition/label from the outside, in order to pathologize a certain behavior.

I didn't realize I was searching deep in the subconsciousnesses of these men to assert that grabbing each other's balls and pretending to "be gay for one another" is both a homophobic and homoerotic behavior!

Like others have mentioned here, I think men teasing one another about being gay is crass and insensitive above anything else (i.e. homophobic). We'll definitely have to agree to disagree here if you think that it is unfair to be labeled as such if you participate in this kind of "male bonding humor." It may also shock you to hear from me that I think rape jokes are inherently degrading and contribute to the minimization of a huge social issue.

I think (hope) there are many men here that can say that this kind of humor is not inherent to the "nature of male friendships" and that many men are moving away from these kinds of jokes in favor of more progressive interactions and friendships.

I'm having one of those moments where I feel like we're talking past each other. Just read your own original post. My understanding was that you've noticed some guys tease each other about being gay and that sort of thing, and you felt that this, as you said, "implicated homophobia with a homoerotic undertone." Based on your post, I assumed you meant that you observed people make gay references and at worst use certain gay slurs. As I originally noted, yes, this is juvenile and certainly not PC, and that sexual jokes (of all kinds) are a big part of that bonding ritual, but that reading homoeroticism into it may be too much. Note that this does not mean that every man who makes such references is necessarily straight, but that he is not necessarily gay--latent or otherwise. Obviously any major deviation from the occasional gay reference, or any observation of touching or other kind of behavior (where not culturally appropriate) is reason enough to entertain possibility of something more than just male bonding. Just wanted to be clear....

I can't believe this thread is still going, or that I'm posting again, but screw it:

re: some forms of homophobic slurs, see CJ Pascoe's Dude, You’re a ***: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School. There's an interactional context to such slurs, and they can be used as a means of policing masculinity.
http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271487

Originally Posted by wigflip

I can't believe this thread is still going, or that I'm posting again, but screw it:

re: some forms of homophobic slurs, see CJ Pascoe's Dude, You’re a ***: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School. There's an interactional context to such slurs, and they can be used as a means of policing masculinity.
http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271487

This is why I refrain from posting in these types of threads anymore. Or maybe it's because I get nothing else done, and there's still that pesky dissertation looming over me.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Originally Posted by paramour

This is why I refrain from posting in these types of threads anymore. Or maybe it's because I get nothing else done, and there's still that pesky dissertation looming over me.

I feel ya, paramour. I got sucked back in because I really couldn't believe this thread was still going (>300 posts?!?!). It must be the snappy title