Med Students - Grow a Spine

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Originally Posted by ucladoc2b

It's kind of a difficult number to calculate precisely becuase physician income is so variable (even with physician practices right across the hall from one another).

It's a lot. Physicians should still feel pretty valued (or at least I do).

However, I do agree that the whole system has a ton of waste (from training to delivery), and physicians could do a huge favor for themselves by taking the lead and eliminating some of it (rather than having the government legislate it). There just really isn't the incentive to do so (although that will change).

Oh I understand, your post just made me curious about what I would get from really roughly running the numbers so I did.

...........

Originally Posted by gettheleadout

Oh I understand, your post just made me curious about what I would get from really roughly running the numbers so I did.

No worries. Always good to have someone on the ball...

Originally Posted by KnuxNole

Go on strike! Every M.D. and D.O. physician will be unavailable.

Originally Posted by jumpmanv15

Out of curiosity, has that ever happened before?

There's a national doctor strike going on in the UK right now over pensions.

Originally Posted by Gut Shot

Every time we, as a profession, stand up and demand money it becomes a PR disaster. I was walking through the physician parking lot yesterday and taking note of the cars. BMW 5 series. BMW 7 series. Porsche Carrera. Lexus. Infiniti. Mercedes. Mercedes. It's very tough to see the long term benefit of bleating about money when any casual observer can call us greedy.

So don't stand up in public and demand money. Work the appropriate channels in a legal, ethical way.

The doctors' lot here looks nothing like yours, I guess, but even still, don't bleat to the public. Go for the money - the insurance companies.

Originally Posted by TheProwler

So don't stand up in public and demand money.

It worked for the MLB players when they went on strike.

Originally Posted by giantswing

It worked for the MLB players when they went on strike.

Not only do doctors get no sympathy from the public because of the perception of wealth, but this isn't a field that holds the same kind of cards as fields in short supply.

Your analogy fails because the average baseball team generates a whole lot more revenue than the average hospital, and most players have unique talents that cannot be taught (unlike medicine where the number of people capable of being good doctors far outweighs the number of spots). You couldn't field a scab baseball team without a huge drop off in talent, but you could probably provide decent medical care with the best and brightest IMGs looking to immigrate and not have a huge drop off in talent.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Not only do doctors get no sympathy from the public because of the perception of wealth, but this isn't a field that holds the same kind of cards as fields in short supply.

Your analogy fails because the average baseball team generates a whole lot more revenue than the average hospital, and most players have unique talents that cannot be taught (unlike medicine where the number of people capable of being good doctors far outweighs the number of spots). You couldn't field a scab baseball team without a huge drop off in talent, but you could probably provide decent medical care with the best and brightest IMGs looking to immigrate and not have a huge drop off in talent.

2.5 trillion a year in healthcare expenditures beats all professional sports combined and despite the average physicians role in that every pharma patent, medical device, fda fee, hospital corporation has a physician involved as a necessary step or participant. But theyd always be able to pay enough to some doc to strike break

theyd have NPs filling each of those roles in a ny minute as well if it were even possible to be cohesive for 5 minutes

AMA needs to be debunked as people see that as the "physician union" or some type of voice. its just a few doctors who still crave more power and want to piss next to senators in DC cause they are the only ones with smaller cockss

Originally Posted by nosleep

Wow you will never hear a banker, lawyer, plumber, <insert other profession> say they should earn less because people in 3rd world countries are starving. Unfortunately, many in our profession think like this and it is a very flawed line of thinking that I think is prevalent and dangerous to the profession.

To all future doctors...nay...physicians, since everyone is a "doctor" these days, I urge you to stand up for your profession. We signed up to help and heal people and knew that certain sacrifices were required. However, this doesn't mean we are condemned to take abuse, get screwed, and act like cowards that surrender to anyone and everyone at the expense of our own well-being.

Society already has the perception that physicians are rich semi-pro golfers that chill on their fleet of yachts in their downtime. This is bad enough, but let's add lack of lobbying for our interests on top of that. But wait, there's more. Let's add those within the profession that rather than advocate for doctors do the opposite. This is not a good position to be in. Yet, people act surprised when our salaries are targeted for cuts (with no benefit to anyone). People act surprised when nurses begin saying they can do 95% of what we can. When you reach that point, it's already too late.

Unfortunately some people still do not get it. It's time to cut the holier-than-thou "physician's burden" attitude and grow a spine. I'm tired of seeing the constant hacking away at this profession while some just stand idly by and watch, or in some cases actually pitch in with an ax of their own. I urge everyone to stand up for themselves and the profession as a whole because if we don't then nobody else will.

DISCUSS - Also mod please do not lock this...there is no "harassment" going on. I edited the post of any mentioning of other posters or their quotes.

Exactly... I was being attacked in another forum (which I believe you posted in as well) for this same stance. Always med students. Always too holy.

Originally Posted by AMH0505

1. For the posters implying doctors are the only people "accused" of making too much money: DID YOU SLEEP THROUGH ALL THE CRITICISMS OF WALL ST.??

2. When doctors support lower salaries based upon their ethics and values, that isn't called being cowardly. That's called being principled. It is no difference than supporting higher salaries based upon deeply held values. When determining someone's spine, why the argue a point is often more enlightening than what they are arguing.

3. I could be wrong, but from what I've seen, most physicians that agree that doctors could afford to make less money are directing their comments at the top-earning specialties. They don't seem to be advocating massive pay cuts for primary care providers, rather for the upper end of the pay scale, and usually whatever pay cuts they are advocating are predicated on the basis that that money could better be used elsewhere.

1. No one slept through the criticisms of wall st. We are aware of such criticisms. The difference is that nothing is being done about wall street compensation. From contacts in the banking industry, salaries have in fact gone up. The only change is that more compensation is granted as stock and less as pure cash. In medicine, we are seeing declining compensation in addition to criticism.
2. No, it is being cowardly. Primarily because it has nothing to do with ethics, values, or being principled. The cuts in compensation aren't benefiting patients. If I knew where that money was going and I knew that the patients would have better care as a result, then I would fervently support the cuts, but physician compensation isn't the problem with health care. It's a very, very, very small part. So yes, if you let people walk all over you and continue to lower your compensation without justification, you are being cowardly.
3. "money could better be used elsewhere." This is the problem. Money isn't being better used elsewhere. Over the past 20 years, physician reimbursements have sharply declined, whereas health care has ballooned. Where is that extra money going? Wasteful spending, that's where.

Originally Posted by ucladoc2b

The collective earnings of all physicians likely dwarfs the combined salaries of all the F500 CEOs, sports stars, the Kardashians, etc. (Likely, physician earnings are probalby over $200BB, if not more). Fifteen percent of GDP is spent on healthcare, so I think society values what we do plenty.

Comparing LeBron James and the CEO of McDonalds to physician earnings is comparing apples and oranges. There are very few people with these types of earnings. Basically, it's all economics of scale. NBA has TV contracs. MCD is a huge company with thousands of outlets (and thousands of employees). That's why they earn so much money. If you want more money, you will have to do the same thing. Think Dr. Oz, the Frist family, or Palmaz and Schatz. If you can deliver something that people want on a huge scale, you will make as much as they do.


Most doctors are in private practice with a few other doctors. There is only so much time in the day and so much you can do in a day. Economics of scale just really doesn't work as well in a labor-intensive industry.

15% of GDP may go to health care, but very little of that actually goes to physicians. A lot of it is just flushed down the toilet.
Government doesn't regulate LeBron James contract. It doesn't say that you can make a maximum of $2000 a game. My practice has the typical features of a private business. I have risk, overhead, insurance, etc. However, the government regulates my business like it's their business. Economics does not apply to medicine. It should, but currently it doesn't.

Whatever screw the chatter

I want to model a form this reimbursement, value benchmarks/bundle, for government performance and I then apply it to a tax return and post it online to forget about it

If anyone cares to post possible metrics based on the how other countries do in education, public transportation, judicial effectiveness, personal debt, and probably a million other that makes quality of life so much better in countries with fractions of our budget.

I'll apply an average benchmark to an average benchmark for the cost to obtain that result and apply it do income tax return modifications.

Increase allowance for above the line student loan deduction, lower the agi % for medical cost exemption, increase the standard deduction for the inevitable poor performance as any possible one we already spend more for less.

People could then choose based on their own personal circumstance between equivalent values and fill out for fun at least. I'm definately going to do at least one when I make more than -67k a year to see the response and will post it. Which will probably just be a short letter with a penalty attached.

Im going to buy a domain and figure out how to use the internet beyond bitching to empty ears and redtube

keeping even a joke form of government accountability tied to financial penalties or reduced taxes makes me feel a bit better.

Its kind if ridiculous though I can give a good part of my life working just for to pay them and expect nothing from it with taxes and this student loan nonsense

Originally Posted by jonmadden

Whatever screw the chatter

I want to model a form this reimbursement, value benchmarks/bundle, for government performance and I then apply it to a tax return and post it online to forget about it

If anyone cares to post possible metrics based on the how other countries do in education, public transportation, judicial effectiveness, personal debt, and probably a million other that makes quality of life so much better in countries with fractions of our budget.

I'll apply an average benchmark to an average benchmark for the cost to obtain that result and apply it do income tax return modifications.

Increase allowance for above the line student loan deduction, lower the agi % for medical cost exemption, increase the standard deduction for the inevitable poor performance as any possible one we already spend more for less.

People could then choose based on their own personal circumstance between equivalent values and fill out for fun at least. I'm definately going to do at least one when I make more than -67k a year to see the response and will post it. Which will probably just be a short letter with a penalty attached.

Im going to buy a domain and figure out how to use the internet beyond bitching to empty ears and redtube

keeping even a joke form of government accountability tied to financial penalties or reduced taxes makes me feel a bit better.

Its kind if ridiculous though I can give a good part of my life working just for to pay them and expect nothing from it with taxes and this student loan nonsense

Originally Posted by Medstudent1968

Just finished a nice j/o?

Originally Posted by jonmadden

Whatever screw the chatter

I want to model a form this reimbursement, value benchmarks/bundle, for government performance and I then apply it to a tax return and post it online to forget about it

If anyone cares to post possible metrics based on the how other countries do in education, public transportation, judicial effectiveness, personal debt, and probably a million other that makes quality of life so much better in countries with fractions of our budget.

I'll apply an average benchmark to an average benchmark for the cost to obtain that result and apply it do income tax return modifications.

Increase allowance for above the line student loan deduction, lower the agi % for medical cost exemption, increase the standard deduction for the inevitable poor performance as any possible one we already spend more for less.

People could then choose based on their own personal circumstance between equivalent values and fill out for fun at least. I'm definately going to do at least one when I make more than -67k a year to see the response and will post it. Which will probably just be a short letter with a penalty attached.

Im going to buy a domain and figure out how to use the internet beyond bitching to empty ears and redtube

keeping even a joke form of government accountability tied to financial penalties or reduced taxes makes me feel a bit better.

Its kind if ridiculous though I can give a good part of my life working just for to pay them and expect nothing from it with taxes and this student loan nonsense

lol, trying to understand your writing is like trying to understand my 3 year old niece talking...

Originally Posted by blub1212

lol, trying to understand your writing is like trying to understand my 3 year old niece talking...

Lol its like learning a foreign language. Fortunately after reading enough of his posts you start to somewhat make sense of them. You just have to learn what to read and what to skip over. 60% has no relevance, but 40% occasionally has some good points.