Rad Onc Away Rotation Impressions

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Better to be overdressed than underdressed. I never wore a tie in 3rd year and I wore one every day on my rotation. I also always wear my white coat. It's silly, but no one's ever going to fault you for dressing professionally, whereas some people may take under-dressing negatively.

I'd say definitely go with the more professional attire (tie + white coat). The residents you work with may not, and starting out looking as professional as you can shouldn't hurt.

Definitely rock the tie and white coat. You may even impress attendings with your style - on my interview day at a program i had rotated at, I got more comments about a particularly slick tie I had worn (one) than about my 45 minute talk to the whole department (zero).

Originally Posted by RSAOaky

Better to be overdressed than underdressed. I never wore a tie in 3rd year and I wore one every day on my rotation. I also always wear my white coat. It's silly, but no one's ever going to fault you for dressing professionally, whereas some people may take under-dressing negatively.

This.

I imagine some people have started their away rotations by now, hows it going? I don't start until next week, but I can't wait to finally do a rotation in what I want to do.

For anonymity, no need to say an actual impression, I'm more just curious about generalities.

Wanted to bump this up to see if anyone had any reviews of IU?

Originally Posted by echod

Thanks for all the info! Has anyone rotated at Mayo before?

I rotated at Mayo (a few years ago now) and would overall echo the above thoughts, i.e. good rotation. I was a little disappointed, however, when despite being assured I would be interviewed I received a rejection, only later to be interviewed after all when they had a cancellation. At least I knew just how they felt about me!

I think my interview day was smoother, however. All the interviewers were nice to me, whereas the other applicants all stated they had a rougher time of it.

Bumping to see if anybody has anything new to add for decision making on locations for next year.

Anybody have any experience with away rotation at Johns Hopkins? Thanks in advance.

I rotated there just over a year ago and thought it was a great experience. I emailed the program director and within 10 minutes she replied saying that they could accomodate me. Staying in the adult dorm is convenient but not the ideal living conditions and it does require some extra $. Its a pretty standard away rotation format where you rotate with different faculty on a day by day basis, see consults, go to morning conference, present to attendings, present at MDC tumor board, and give a talk at the end of the rotation. The faculty were great and the residents were helpful. I learned a ton and I was impressed that they had more faculty come to my talk then at my home program. The only problem is Baltimore is a bit dangerous and you wont be exploring the neighborhood at night, however the campus itself is well secured. To add one last selling point I got a ton of free lunches while I was there and all the residents were extremely helpful/smart. Also, I think it costs a couple hundred bucks to do the rotation as a side note. I didn't get any letters of rec, but I didn't ask because it was late in the cycle and I had an interview. I'll also give a thumbs up to the nursing/administration who were personable and fun to be around.

Hi all, thanks for the great impressions/info so far. I hate to add to the begging, but does anyone have experience with OHSU? Thanks.

Originally Posted by The Heat

Hi all, thanks for the great reviews/info so far. I hate to be another begging baby bird (the dreaded triple B), but anyone have experience doing an away at OHSU? Thanks.

Just wanted to give you, and everyone else, a heads up that there is a good chance that there will be more reviews coming in after February 20th when rank lists are locked down. So if you don't get the response you want now, it may come later!

I'm thinking about doing an away at Heidelberg. I'd like to check out the carbon ions.....anyone done this or know someone who has?

Institution: Emory University

Time spent: 4 weeks

Services: Everyone rotates 1 week at 2 of these locations where you see a mix of everything: Midtown, VA, or Grady. You get 2 weeks at Winship, 1 on the CNS/Lung (Curran) service, and 1 on a service of your choice.

Presentation: You present towards the end of your rotation on a Friday (this can depend on how many people are rotating during the same 4 weeks as you). The presentation is 30 minutes following chart rounds and prior to didactics. It will be attended by all residents and some faculty. Curran was usually not there.

Research: They had a 2 month research rotation last year, but if you are proactive you can find a clinical project while you are there. They have a ton of stuff going on, you just have to be very self motivated and keep pushing to get a project done.

Role as a student: Emory is busy and you are in charge of all new patient consults. Also, there can be times when it is incredibly busy and you may be acting like a junior resident seeing follow-ups and on treatment visits. It was a great experience and I learned a ton about rad onc this way. The residents give you a lot of autonomy and will help you out along the way. I didn't do any contouring.

Impression: Like or didn't like? I loved my rotation at Emory. Sure, you get to spend time in a great program and try to make a good impression, but it is also a great learning opportunity. Dr. Diaz runs the student rotations and does and incredible job. This was the most organized rotation I did, and that is really important when you are at a new place and just starting to learn about rad onc. He makes sure everyone who rotates gets a week on Dr. Curran's service. Unfortunately, Dr. Curran usually only sees patients one day of the week, but at least Dr. Diaz does his best to give you the chance to work with Dr. Curran. Grady was an awesome week where you get a lot of autonomy to see patients and come up with a plan. Dr. Landry is also awesome to work with. Midtown was very busy, and a chance to see a large variety of cases including a lot of sarcoma cases. The thing I liked most about the structure of the rotation was that you knew what you would be doing for an entire week and could prepare/read.
Would you recommend it to future applicants? Definitely, Emory is growing fast and quickly gaining national prominence. You get the chance to spend significant time with all their big-name faculty. You will also learn a lot about radiation oncology. I also had a great time in Atlanta. I was a little unsure about ATL prior to rotating, but after spending a month there I loved it. There are great places to eat, tons of parks and outdoor activities (if you don't mind temps near 100), and a lot of really cool neighborhoods.
Any other thoughts developed after 4 weeks. A lot of people will want to get LORs from their rotations, and at Emory from Dr. Curran. You can get a letter from him, but don't expect it to be personal and heartfelt as you only really work with him for one day. Your better chances at really good letters will be from the other well known faculty whom you can actually spend an entire week with. Also, you can get those faculty to be your mentor for your presentation.

Offered an interview: Yes? Yes, I got an interview, but apparently there were 25 or more students who rotated this year. That alone means that not everyone gets an interview just because you rotated. I do think the rotation allows you to prove yourself to them and earn an opportunity to interview.

Institution: University of Alabama-Birmingham

Time spent: 4 weeks

Services: You basically spend 4 weeks at Hazelrig-Salter Radiation Oncology Center and see the patients of the busiest attending each day. If there are multiple rotators, the people who have been there the longest divy up days with Fiveash and Burnett and you take what's left. Therefore, you may see head and neck one day, then prostate, then gyn, etc. Also, they have a satellite facility about 10 miles south of Bham where you can spend some afternoons seeing patients. There is not a ton of structure to the rotation, and if you are there by yourself it is up to you what to do everyday. Unfortunately, Dr. Bonner really doesn't see a ton of patients and I don't know of anyone who actually got to rotate with him in clinic.

Presentation: Presentation is the last week of your rotation on a Thursday I think. You have up to an hour, but nobody really wants to sit there and listen to you moan about your research or interesting case for that long. It is perfectly fine to only talk for 30-45 minutes. There was really good attendance for all the student presentations including most of the residents, a number of physics faculty and residents, and probably 1-2/3 of the faculty (specifically Drs. Bonner, Fiveash, and Burnett). It is during lunch with free food which could partially explain the good turnout. There will be some friendly questioning and discussion after the talk as well.

Research: I did not specifically pursue research while there, but most of the residents have a number of projects going on and one needs only be proactive and persistent to get a clinical project done. They are very active with lab research at UAB, but you couldn't do a lab project in 1 month.

Role as a student: In general, you see all new patients. UAB is busy, and there is one resident to each attending. Therefore, you can also end up seeing whatever patient shows up. One of the challenges of this rotation was that knowing what patients you were going to see was not very predictable. Thus, it was difficult to prepare extensively for new patients. Sometimes they don't show up, or they are late and get seen by someone else while you are seeing an OTV. Residents are very helpful and let you do as much as you want. No contouring, though.

Impression: Like or didn't like? I really enjoyed rotating at UAB. It was not super-structured so you were on your own a lot in determining where you went and what you saw each day. They also do a good deal of brachy, so you can fit in a couple of procedures. The residents were a great group and often went to lunch together or went out for beers after work, and you can go along as well. Birmingham is a cool city and the downtown area is really improving. They are building a new baseball stadium a few blocks from the hospital and there are a number of restaurants and bars going in. Housing was redonkulous in Bham for the month, though.
Would you recommend it to future applicants? Yes. Very good rotation with great learning experiences. Also a great way to meet the all the faculty and residents and prove yourself. Donell is the program coordinator and made everything incredibly easy to set up. They were very accommodating to off-schedule rotations. You do have to do a separate application, though, as UAB doesn't do VSAS. Also, you have to spend 1.5 days in the hospital's EHR training course which was ridiculous (this was required by UAB, not the rad onc department).
Any other thoughts developed after 4 weeks. Letters. It sounds like only home students are usually able to get a letter from Dr. Bonner. You probably won't get to rotate with him or spend any significant time with him. They do have other well known faculty that you can definitely spend significant time with, specifically Dr. Fiveash and Dr. Spencer.

Offered an interview: Yes? Yes, I received an interview, but who knows if my rotation was why. I'm not sure if rotators are pretty much guaranteed an interview.

Bump up for any away experience at Vandy and UTSW. Many thanks.

I know it's getting a little late, but what did you guys look for when applying to aways? This thread helps a lot with programs to stay away from, but how did everyone create a list of programs they did want to rotate at?

Rankings? Location? Was cost ever a factor (staying with someone you knew)? Programs with big wigs with the intention of getting a letter?

Did you apply to many aways and then narrow it down to 2-3 later?

Originally Posted by w00tz

I know it's getting a little late, but what did you guys look for when applying to aways? This thread helps a lot with programs to stay away from, but how did everyone create a list of programs they did want to rotate at?

Rankings? Location? Was cost ever a factor (staying with someone you knew)? Programs with big wigs with the intention of getting a letter?

Did you apply to many aways and then narrow it down to 2-3 later?

I think the wisest thing to do is to be practical. I'm guessing you are planning on doing two aways since that is the most common number. I would apply filters to the total list of programs in this order:

1) First remove programs that are completely out of your league after doing an honest assessment of your chances (This could be no programs if you are top of your class at Harvard, or could be 20-30 programs if you are middle of the class at an unranked state school with no research.)

2) Once you have that list, remove any programs you wouldn't want to attend for any reason.

3) Now that you have the list of programs you'd be willing to attend that you are competitive for, pick the half of that list that you'd rather go to.

After all of this you should be down to about 20 programs or so.

4) Now, put these programs in order from most to least competitive/prestigous. I'd apply to do 4 away rotations at the top of this list, and 4 in the middle. It can be completely random where you'll get aways, and as long as you withdraw your applications to programs before they offer you a spot, I don't believe it hurts you at all come residency application time.

This process works because it takes into account a few things: Your preferences first, and foremost since aways are your BEST chance to get an in at a program you actually want to attend. When deciding from that narrowed down list you can certainly give preference to Big wig LOR's, etc but I wouldn't make a decision about that until you've applied the above filters.

Geographic diversity is interesting because SDN says that aways in a new region help, but for me and others I've talked to it didn't help at all. So, with that your mileage will certainly vary.

Hope this helps!

Originally Posted by Sheldor

I think the wisest thing to do is to be practical. I'm guessing you are planning on doing two aways since that is the most common number. I would apply filters to the total list of programs in this order:

1) First remove programs that are completely out of your league after doing an honest assessment of your chances (This could be no programs if you are top of your class at Harvard, or could be 20-30 programs if you are middle of the class at an unranked state school with no research.)

2) Once you have that list, remove any programs you wouldn't want to attend for any reason.

3) Now that you have the list of programs you'd be willing to attend that you are competitive for, pick the half of that list that you'd rather go to.

After all of this you should be down to about 20 programs or so.

4) Now, put these programs in order from most to least competitive/prestigous. I'd apply to do 4 away rotations at the top of this list, and 4 in the middle. It can be completely random where you'll get aways, and as long as you withdraw your applications to programs before they offer you a spot, I don't believe it hurts you at all come residency application time.

This process works because it takes into account a few things: Your preferences first, and foremost since aways are your BEST chance to get an in at a program you actually want to attend. When deciding from that narrowed down list you can certainly give preference to Big wig LOR's, etc but I wouldn't make a decision about that until you've applied the above filters.

Geographic diversity is interesting because SDN says that aways in a new region help, but for me and others I've talked to it didn't help at all. So, with that your mileage will certainly vary.

Hope this helps!

Generally speaking, I agree with this logic. However, maybe I just got lucky with my applications (applied to 2 initially, didn't get one, so applied for a third which I got after having learned I wouldn't be able to attend the second), but I would shy away from applying to 8 programs. Perhaps sheldor is right and it won't hurt you, but I'm somewhat risk averse and think that there is at least a decent chance it may hurt you.

Some decisions re: away placement are made entirely through the registrar's office, and therefore the department may have little knowledge of who applied. However, others are decided directly by the department (e.g. MD Anderson), and could therefore conceivably hurt you if you decide to decline or withdraw your application.

To address your questions, agree with Sheldor that you need to look at your application to determine where you may be competitive. It's not unreasonable to do a rotation at a place that is a reach if you think you can get a strong letter. Just realize that at places like MDA, MGH/BWH, etc., you may not rotate with the biggest names at that institution.

I think it's completely reasonable to consider rankings, location, and cost. I would have loved to rotate at MSK, but couldn't justify subletting some room/studio for >1500-2000 since I didn't have contacts in the city I could stay with.

Because many of these away rotations are organized/decided upon through the registrar's office, don't take offense if you don't get an away rotation that you wanted. Many times it's simply a matter of how many applied for the 2 or so spots available. As a personal anecdote, I matched at a program at which I had applied to do an away but was not offered a spot.

Originally Posted by Member392

Generally speaking, I agree with this logic. However, maybe I just got lucky with my applications (applied to 2 initially, didn't get one, so applied for a third which I got after having learned I wouldn't be able to attend the second), but I would shy away from applying to 8 programs. Perhaps sheldor is right and it won't hurt you, but I'm somewhat risk averse and think that there is at least a decent chance it may hurt you.

Some decisions re: away placement are made entirely through the registrar's office, and therefore the department may have little knowledge of who applied. However, others are decided directly by the department (e.g. MD Anderson), and could therefore conceivably hurt you if you decide to decline or withdraw your application.

To address your questions, agree with Sheldor that you need to look at your application to determine where you may be competitive. It's not unreasonable to do a rotation at a place that is a reach if you think you can get a strong letter. Just realize that at places like MDA, MGH/BWH, etc., you may not rotate with the biggest names at that institution.

I think it's completely reasonable to consider rankings, location, and cost. I would have loved to rotate at MSK, but couldn't justify subletting some room/studio for >1500-2000 since I didn't have contacts in the city I could stay with.

Because many of these away rotations are organized/decided upon through the registrar's office, don't take offense if you don't get an away rotation that you wanted. Many times it's simply a matter of how many applied for the 2 or so spots available. As a personal anecdote, I matched at a program at which I had applied to do an away but was not offered a spot.

I agree with you about their being the smallest chance of it hurting you, and I too am risk averse. However, I had to weigh the potential damage of not getting a spot, which for me would have been worse. If one is really worried about this, they could also apply to 2 per spot, and decrease that risk somewhat. (Of the ones I applied to but withdrew before they could offer, I got some interviews and didn't get others, so who knows)

Also, I definitely agree with doing rotations at "reaches." I should have defined my terms better. In that first round of eliminating programs that you aren't competitive for, I wasn't referring to reaches, I was referring to programs where there was truly no chance. For solid applicants, from top 40 research schools with a year out of research, there wouldn't be any eliminated in that round.

However, I know a handful of people who did away rotations at programs that were out of their reach, and they all regret that decision and wished they'd used that away to get an "in" at a program more in their competitiveness range.

Also, second member392's caution about doing an away at a big name place and not rotating with a big wig. I know people who had the block set up with the big wig only to find out the person ended up being gone for vacation, conferences, etc. Also, I chose one of my based on cost because I had a free place to live, however while I don't regret saving money don't make that the sole basis of your decision!

For full disclosure: I did one at a reach I had no business going to, and one at an upper competitive on my list. If I could do it over again, I wouldn't have done the super reach, and instead would have done another top choice in the middle of my competitive range. For what thats worth

Super, super helpful post Sheldor and Member392.

I'm doing a research year at a top 3 program. My PI said he could get me here for an away rotation, but if I'm honest with myself, I don't think I have a chance of getting an interview based on stats. From what everyone is saying, I know it's a bad idea to apply for an away here. I just need to hear it from someone else that I should not apply here. Lay it on me!

Originally Posted by w00tz

Super, super helpful post Sheldor and Member392.

I'm doing a research year at a top 3 program. My PI said he could get me here for an away rotation, but if I'm honest with myself, I don't think I have a chance of getting an interview based on stats. From what everyone is saying, I know it's a bad idea to apply for an away here. I just need to hear it from someone else that I should not apply here. Lay it on me!

This is a very fine line! My first thought was, that this is the exception to my rule, which is doing an away somewhere out of your league because you have a connection to the program. My second thought was, well, if you spent a year there you probably don't need an extra month there for them to get to know you.

I'll defer to the wisdom of others, but off the cuff I'd probably suggest you do the away. Not very helpful of me, ha

In full disclosure, I am a resident at the University of Wisconsin and thought I would contribute to the thread per the original format given by the OP.

Institution: University of Wisconsin

Time spent: 4 weeks

Services: Students sit down with the Chief residents on the first day of the rotation to create a schedule. Many of our attendings are only in clinic 3 days/week (which is great for us as residents to have 2 academic days/week), so they will say, "We will have you with Dr. X on Monday, Dr. Y on Tuesday, Dr. Z on Wednesday, etc." We typically place the students with the more senior and well known attendings so that their letter of recommendation will potentially have a greater impact.

Presentation: Occurs at the end of the rotation and is approximately 45 minutes. The presentations are very well attended by Chair, Program Director, senior faculty and residents. We respect the fact that you (hopefully) have put a lot of time and effort into your presentation and so make it a point to attend.

Research: Very good. All of us (residents) have anywhere from 1-3 research projects ongoing at any one time and are generally very receptive to having help from a medical student eager to get his/her name on a paper. Last year, we had two students who were able to do research during their elective and others who chose to just focus on the clinical aspect of things because they already had research experience.

Role as a student: Present consults to attendings. We (residents) really don't feel that is much educational value in presenting follow-ups or contouring, but are happy to let you present the consults. We take the time to teach medical students and help them come up with a good Impression/Plan to give to the attending at the end of their patient presentation.

Impression: I am pretty certain that I speak for all of the residents when I tell you that we are all extremely happy here. The SDN quote of "the happiest residents on the interview trail..." is accurate (though that is difficult to objectively quantify) and is one of the reasons I wanted to train here. I think that this is a great place to do an away rotation because of the environment (attendings very nice, excellent support staff, etc.), flexibility of scheduling who you get to work with, research opportunities and quality of education.

Offered an interview: Almost always. The quality of medical students rotating through is obviously very high, so nearly everyone is invited for an interview.

Any impressions on Moffitt? Thanks.

I'm a resident at Moffitt. Typically, I will greet you with "welcome to the best specialty in medicine" and throw papers at you for a month.

Institution: Moffitt

Time spent: 4 weeks

Services: We usually have you work with either the program director (thoracic), assistant program director (head and neck), and/or chairman's (GU) services. We give you usually two weeks each of two of those. We pick those services so that you can get to know the alpha dogs, and also it's so that they can evaluate you for letters and their rank list. Almost all our faculty are so chill and awesome that the stress level is low and the fun level is high. If you have a particular interest within rad onc we can usually hook you up with that attending.

Research: Typically each resident has 1-2 academic days a week, and this gives you plenty of time to do research if you're proactive. We've had a run of medical students doing fairly ambitious clinical research projects in their month here and being successful. The benefits of Moffitt are a high patient volume (#3 in the country), a high number of attendings, and a low number of residents. We have so many databases to crunch that it's easy to generate abstracts and publications.

As for protected research time if you're a resident here, Holman is offered. The institution is big into bioinformatics in particular. Without Holman, you get 9 months protected time, though one of the three month blocks is so light you could turn it into another research block.

Presentation: We typically have you present on whatever research you're doing. But, if you don't do research or it turns out to be a dud, you can present about 20 minutes on some clinical topic. We'll try to trick some people into attending by promising punch and pie.

Role as a student: Everything and anything. Read up on patients, read background of treatment for those patients, see patients, present patients, go to simulations and learn/see simulation setups, contour, learn how the plans are made, see how the patients get started with their treatments, ???, profit. You can be the resident on the service if one isn't on the service. If there is a resident on the service, we'll split things up a bit so that it's fun and educational.

Impression: I tell everyone that I love it here. The didactics are awesome. The attendings, dosimetrists, and physicsts are friendly and helpful. The scut is practically non-existent. I shouldn't say publicly the stunts we residents pull, but you'll probably see me sneaking out early once and awhile to go kiteboarding or wakeboarding. If I can't figure out how to describe what I want to the dosimetrists, I'll usually just sit down and generate a plan myself.

Offered an interview: Almost always. Personality is really important here. We're trying to recruit fun, interesting, outgoing people. Of course you need to put in effort and be reasonably competitive for radiation oncology, but there's a big emphasis on who we'd want to work with for four years. That's the key to getting the interview and matching here.

Originally Posted by Neuronix

I'm a resident at Moffitt. Typically, I will greet you with "welcome to the best specialty in medicine" and throw papers at you for a month.

Institution: Moffitt

Time spent: 4 weeks

Services: We usually have you work with either the program director (thoracic), assistant program director (head and neck), and/or chairman's (GU) services. We give you usually two weeks each of two of those. We pick those services so that you can get to know the alpha dogs, and also it's so that they can evaluate you for letters and their rank list. Almost all our faculty are so chill and awesome that the stress level is low and the fun level is high. If you have a particular interest within rad onc we can usually hook you up with that attending.

Research: Typically each resident has 1-2 academic days a week, and this gives you plenty of time to do research if you're proactive. We've had a run of medical students doing fairly ambitious clinical research projects in their month here and being successful. The benefits of Moffitt are a high patient volume (#3 in the country), a high number of attendings, and a low number of residents. We have so many databases to crunch that it's easy to generate abstracts and publications.

As for protected research time if you're a resident here, Holman is offered. The institution is big into bioinformatics in particular. Without Holman, you get 9 months protected time, though one of the three month blocks is so light you could turn it into another research block.

Presentation: We typically have you present on whatever research you're doing. But, if you don't do research or it turns out to be a dud, you can present about 20 minutes on some clinical topic. We'll try to trick some people into attending by promising punch and pie.

Role as a student: Everything and anything. Read up on patients, read background of treatment for those patients, see patients, present patients, go to simulations and learn/see simulation setups, contour, learn how the plans are made, see how the patients get started with their treatments, ???, profit. You can be the resident on the service if one isn't on the service. If there is a resident on the service, we'll split things up a bit so that it's fun and educational.

Impression: I tell everyone that I love it here. The didactics are awesome. The attendings, dosimetrists, and physicsts are friendly and helpful. The scut is practically non-existent. I shouldn't say publicly the stunts we residents pull, but you'll probably see me sneaking out early once and awhile to go kiteboarding or wakeboarding. If I can't figure out how to describe what I want to the dosimetrists, I'll usually just sit down and generate a plan myself.

Offered an interview: Almost always. Personality is really important here. We're trying to recruit fun, interesting, outgoing people. Of course you need to put in effort and be reasonably competitive for radiation oncology, but there's a big emphasis on who we'd want to work with for four years. That's the key to getting the interview and matching here.

thanks for the great insider advice, sounds like a great program!

Anyone rotate at MDACC?

If you requested a specific service did you work with everyone on that service or a specific attending? Any other thoughts or advice?