Optometry not a good investment if you have more than $50,000 in federal loans

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In this thread: Naive optometry student's try to justify their decision to make themselves feel better.

Some people will do ok but its just like law school people are still going to apply and still going to go. I guess some people just think the problem will fix itself by the time they graduate the program. Everyone just go to dental school its easier to get into than med, dont crowd my future profession though (Not OPtometry and Not dentistry BTW).

Originally Posted by Cozell

Some people will do ok but its just like law school people are still going to apply and still going to go. I guess some people just think the problem will fix itself by the time they graduate the program. Everyone just go to dental school its easier to get into than med, dont crowd my future profession though (Not OPtometry and Not dentistry BTW).

Yup dental is easier and we dont work 80 hours a week, we get to earn near 200K and actually enjoy our time, money and family.

Going to law school isn't necessarily a horrible idea, as long as you can get into a top 5 school and do well.

The big firms are still paying first year associates $160k+, you just have to be good enough to get one of those spots.

And after several years of that (with pay increases), if you can become a partner that's easily more than almost all physicians.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

Going to law school isn't necessarily a horrible idea, as long as you can get into a top 5 school and do well.

The big firms are still paying first year associates $160k+, you just have to be good enough to get one of those spots.

And after several years of that (with pay increases), if you can become a partner that's easily more than almost all physicians.

This is true. They do have to work like dogs, be ruthless and have virtually no life for many years to get to that level though.

Originally Posted by namams

This is true. They do have to work like dogs, be ruthless and have virtually no life for many years to get to that level though.

Lawyers or physicians? Sounds the same to me.

As an optometry student, I don't think my profession is without its problems, but I'll enjoy my job. That's what matters to me. I knew this wasn't the most difficult thing to do, and I knew I wouldn't make the most money. I did, however, know that I would like my job and lifestyle.

Also, this thread: people from every profession but optometry trashing a profession they look down upon to feel better about their life decisions.

Go away. You have boards for your professions for a reason. Why doesn't this board ban people for senseless trolling?

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

Lawyers or physicians? Sounds the same to me.

I'd venture to say that the lawyers who are partners in top firms worked harder considering they had to put in 90 hour weeks for a decade or more to get to their positions.

Originally Posted by namams

This is true. They do have to work like dogs, be ruthless and have virtually no life for many years to get to that level though.

Meh, associates work like dogs.

Partners don't have it too bad at all, they get to delegate a lot of their work even though they shoulder the responsibility.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

Meh, associates work like dogs.

Partners don't have it too bad at all, they get to delegate a lot of their work even though they shoulder the responsibility.

For sure. I'm sure being a partner is great, I was just talking about the path to it. I guess kind of like radiology or dermatology from what I've heard - pain in the a** to get there but once you're there, life is good.

Originally Posted by namams

For sure. I'm sure being a partner is great, I was just talking about the path to it. I guess kind of like radiology or dermatology from what I've heard - pain in the a** to get there but once you're there, life is good.

Yup, for the NYC firms they're almost all in the 7 figures, a few even hit 8.

Originally Posted by Roffles

As an optometry student, I don't think my profession is without its problems, but I'll enjoy my job. That's what matters to me. I knew this wasn't the most difficult thing to do, and I knew I wouldn't make the most money. I did, however, know that I would like my job and lifestyle.

Also, this thread: people from every profession but optometry trashing a profession they look down upon to feel better about their life decisions.

Go away. You have boards for your professions for a reason. Why doesn't this board ban people for senseless trolling?

No offense intended by my comment. I just like to see what other professions are talking about/going thru. You will likely do fine all Profession's have their ups and downs, good luck man.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

Going to law school isn't necessarily a horrible idea, as long as you can get into a top 5 school and do well.

The big firms are still paying first year associates $160k+, you just have to be good enough to get one of those spots.

And after several years of that (with pay increases), if you can become a partner that's easily more than almost all physicians.

Buddy what are the chances one will make it to a top law school like that I mean really. The fact is most kids go to law schools that are not in the top tier and even top law schools produce too many lawyers, theirs only so many of these positions available.

If law was lucrative or at least not a financial death wish in todays age, I would likely be Pre law. But this is just not so and If i went to law school I could be working at Mcdonalds in 3 years No Thanks.

Good luck to all professions work hard and you'll be succesfull BOTTOM LINE.

Originally Posted by Cozell

Buddy what are the chances one will make it to a top law school like that I mean really. The fact is most kids go to law schools that are not in the top tier and even top law schools produce too many lawyers, theirs only so many of these positions available.

If law was lucrative or at least not a financial death wish in todays age, I would likely be Pre law. But this is just not so and If i went to law school I could be working at Mcdonalds in 3 years No Thanks.

Good luck to all professions work hard and you'll be succesfull BOTTOM LINE.

If you're a top student, not awful. Just apply only to top schools and if you don't make it, do something else (and maybe try again).

And what the hell is pre-law? You can go into law school with any major as long as you have a high GPA.

Originally Posted by Cozell

No offense intended by my comment. I just like to see what other professions are talking about/going thru. You will likely do fine all Profession's have their ups and downs, good luck man.



Buddy what are the chances one will make it to a top law school like that I mean really. The fact is most kids go to law schools that are not in the top tier and even top law schools produce too many lawyers, theirs only so many of these positions available.

If law was lucrative or at least not a financial death wish in todays age, I would likely be Pre law. But this is just not so and If i went to law school I could be working at Mcdonalds in 3 years No Thanks.

Good luck to all professions work hard and you'll be succesfull BOTTOM LINE.

Thank you for making sense!
It's sad to see all these figures thrown around about arguing over starting salaries or what-not.

Basically optometrists are not going to be paid like MDs, DOs and DDSs (etc.) and anyone purely pursuing optometry for financial reasons is making a mistake. Period. That just summed up this entire thread.

Any profession can have the select few that are making well above the average income (as well as those making well-below) but that is rare and no one should automatically think they will be a part of those select few. We don't know where life will take us. There are professions that work out for some and not for others. Not everyone is happy with their career and choices and these type of forums attract those that are more likely unhappy or bitter rather than satisfied so everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I'm not putting down their valuable advice since they sure as hell have a lot more experience in the field than I do. I believe that the future of Optometry will be what we make of it since there will be more optometrists entering the field each year (thanks to
the new schools being opened up every year). I know that most advice and dissent on here has made me rethink my choice often cause truthfully it does scare me, but I think it's also made me that much more determined since I can't see myself in any other position.

There will always be those that disagree no matter what but what's important to each individual would be to consider the reasons they chose this field and understand the issues that it's currently facing/heading towards.

It's also stupid to keep comparing two completely different professions and considering one better than the other. If you wanna play the "I'm better than thou" game, head over to the allo threads and let them knock some sense into you.

There are plenty of professions that require around the same amount of time & money to pay the same or even less starting out. To name a few chiropractors, physical therapists, lawyers (not everyone is lucky enough to work for big firms), pharmacists (get paid more but have own issues of oversupply so finding jobs can be difficult), audiologists and etc. Those are just a few and yes there can be people making more or less in each field but I'm thinking the median.

Wow that was long-winded.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

If you're a top student, not awful. Just apply only to top schools and if you don't make it, do something else (and maybe try again).

And what the hell is pre-law? You can go into law school with any major as long as you have a high GPA.

What is Pre Law ,You can go to med school with any major as well,,,,see my point or should I elaborate. Their are requirements to get into law school as well maybe not specific classes however requirements non the less. You will not get into a top law school if you decide to apply senior year just because you have a good GPA other things make you competitive.


HERSNAPE, That was very long winded lol. But you made great points . I am very interested in psycholgy it is my major and I was considering grad school, However Phd Psych's make about 50-90k a year starting out then about 90-120k with 5+yrs experience, not bad just not to meeting my finacial potential.

And so I choose another career field Medicine of course. It would be senseless for me to take my passion for psych and try to back its finacial limitations or make them seem non existant, If I was going into psych I would know what to expect and take the good with the bad.

Its simple do what makes you happy because honestly 80k will provide a nice life believe it or not. Just accept you conditions and take the good Be an Optimist Not a pessimist,,

Optometry + Optimism = peace of mind. keep studying.

Originally Posted by Cozell

What is Pre Law ,You can go to med school with any major as well,,,,see my point or should I elaborate. Their are requirements to get into law school as well maybe not specific classes however requirements non the less. You will not get into a top law school if you decide to apply senior year just because you have a good GPA other things make you competitive.


HERSNAPE, That was very long winded lol. But you made great points . I am very interested in psycholgy it is my major and I was considering grad school, However Phd Psych's make about 50-90k a year starting out then about 90-120k with 5+yrs experience, not bad just not to meeting my finacial potential.

And so I choose another career field Medicine of course. It would be senseless for me to take my passion for psych and try to back its finacial limitations or make them seem non existant, If I was going into psych I would know what to expect and take the good with the bad.

Its simple do what makes you happy because honestly 80k will provide a nice life believe it or not. Just accept you conditions and take the good Be an Optimist Not a pessimist,,

Optometry + Optimism = peace of mind. keep studying.

Most students don't make it into a top law school and those that do hate it either way. A lot of my friends in law can't find a job to save their skin, while they're paying off 150K to 200K in loans and are happy to find a 30K job. That job market is oversaturated, the profession is a joke and substance abuse is quite high. Id even be willing to consider Optometry to avoid going into law.

Originally Posted by Hersnape

Thank you for making sense!
It's sad to see all these figures thrown around about arguing over starting salaries or what-not.

Basically optometrists are not going to be paid like MDs, DOs and DDSs (etc.) and anyone purely pursuing optometry for financial reasons is making a mistake. Period. That just summed up this entire thread.

Any profession can have the select few that are making well above the average income (as well as those making well-below) but that is rare and no one should automatically think they will be a part of those select few. We don't know where life will take us. There are professions that work out for some and not for others. Not everyone is happy with their career and choices and these type of forums attract those that are more likely unhappy or bitter rather than satisfied so everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I'm not putting down their valuable advice since they sure as hell have a lot more experience in the field than I do. I believe that the future of Optometry will be what we make of it since there will be more optometrists entering the field each year (thanks to
the new schools being opened up every year). I know that most advice and dissent on here has made me rethink my choice often cause truthfully it does scare me, but I think it's also made me that much more determined since I can't see myself in any other position.

There will always be those that disagree no matter what but what's important to each individual would be to consider the reasons they chose this field and understand the issues that it's currently facing/heading towards.

It's also stupid to keep comparing two completely different professions and considering one better than the other. If you wanna play the "I'm better than thou" game, head over to the allo threads and let them knock some sense into you.

There are plenty of professions that require around the same amount of time & money to pay the same or even less starting out. To name a few chiropractors, physical therapists, lawyers (not everyone is lucky enough to work for big firms), pharmacists (get paid more but have own issues of oversupply so finding jobs can be difficult), audiologists and etc. Those are just a few and yes there can be people making more or less in each field but I'm thinking the median.

Wow that was long-winded.

nicely worded!

point of the thread: don't go into the OD field thinking you're going to make bank, because you probably won't

Originally Posted by Hersnape

I believe that the future of Optometry will be what we make of it since there will be more optometrists entering the field each year (thanks to
the new schools being opened up every year).

The future of optometry will absolutely not be what YOU make of it, it will be what corporations and highly-paid school administrators like Les Walls make of it. You'll be along for the ride. You guys seem to forget that have no control over the direction of the profession. You honestly believe that you'll somehow be able to beat the odds. When you finally wake up and see that you've been hanging onto a dream that doesn't exist, it's going to sting. It's like a surfer thinking he's able to manipulate the ocean. You're not ultimately in control - remember that.

When I hear people say, "I just can't imagine myself doing anything else," it honestly makes me cringe. You guys have no idea what you're getting yourselves into.

Originally Posted by Jason K

When I hear people say, "I just can't imagine myself doing anything else," it honestly makes me cringe. You guys have no idea what you're getting yourselves into.

Its okay Jason. Remember, they are not in it for the money. They just 'love' eyes.

What they don't realize is whether they are in it for the money or not, their creditors ARE into them for their money. When you are $20,000 in the hole for the month and your lab bill and your electric bill need to be paid and your employees want their paychecks, you can't just tell them, "well I don't have the money for you.............."BUT I LOVE EXAMINING EYES".

Optometry IS a business no matter how many people want to pretend it's not. Unless you are in the military or the VA, WHEREVER you work will expect you to produce profits for them. If you don't, you will be deemed useless no matter how many rare eye diseases you can memorize or what your GPA was. No product or service in the world is free. SOMEONE is paying for it. (What are welfare friends do not comprehend or appreciate).

Many will say, but I'm not going to own my own practice. I will work for X-mart and just collect a paycheck. Same thing. Your reduced salary will be gone before you see it. You will be paying all your own taxes, your own health insurance (which in case you haven't checked--ain't getting any cheaper esp if you plan to have a family), and most of your own expenses.

So when they are totally burned out seeing 35 walk-ins , 6 days per week, missing their kids ball games and school functions and they begin to realize that looking at the eyes all day, every day really isn't that exciting after a few years. THEN, it will hit them. It will HIT them hard. Such as shame.

Dont worry all of you optometry students will do fine.

It is Shurnek that will fail horribly and regret his poor choices, Lord bless his soul.

Originally Posted by Cozell

Dont worry all of you optometry students will do fine.

It is Shurnek that will fail horribly and regret his poor choices, Lord bless his soul.

That's not nice. I think Shurnek is going to be a great Optometrist. Although I'm not sure how he's going to convince a girl to move out to the middle of nowhere with him

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

Its okay Jason. Remember, they are not in it for the money. They just 'love' eyes.

What they don't realize is whether they are in it for the money or not, their creditors ARE into them for their money. When you are $20,000 in the hole for the month and your lab bill and your electric bill need to be paid and your employees want their paychecks, you can't just tell them, "well I don't have the money for you.............."BUT I LOVE EXAMINING EYES".

Optometry IS a business no matter how many people want to pretend it's not. Unless you are in the military or the VA, WHEREVER you work will expect you to produce profits for them. If you don't, you will be deemed useless no matter how many rare eye diseases you can memorize or what your GPA was. No product or service in the world is free. SOMEONE is paying for it. (What are welfare friends do not comprehend or appreciate).

Many will say, but I'm not going to own my own practice. I will work for X-mart and just collect a paycheck. Same thing. Your reduced salary will be gone before you see it. You will be paying all your own taxes, your own health insurance (which in case you haven't checked--ain't getting any cheaper esp if you plan to have a family), and most of your own expenses.

So when they are totally burned out seeing 35 walk-ins , 6 days per week, missing their kids ball games and school functions and they begin to realize that looking at the eyes all day, every day really isn't that exciting after a few years. THEN, it will hit them. It will HIT them hard. Such as shame.

That seems odd that Lenscrafters or some other corp wouldn't provide health insurance? I mean I was even offered health insurance when I worked there part-time? Do you mean the deductible is high?

Originally Posted by Optomchick

That seems odd that Lenscrafters or some other corp wouldn't provide health insurance? I mean I was even offered health insurance when I worked there part-time? Do you mean the deductible is high?

In the vast majority of states, optometrists can not be employed directly by the corporation so they are hired as independent contractors or they lease space from the corporation and then operate that space as their own (theoretically) independent practice.

Either way, the onus is on you to obtain and pay for your own health insurance.

Originally Posted by Jason K

The future of optometry will absolutely not be what YOU make of it, it will be what corporations and highly-paid school administrators like Les Walls make of it. You'll be along for the ride. You guys seem to forget that have no control over the direction of the profession. You honestly believe that you'll somehow be able to beat the odds. When you finally wake up and see that you've been hanging onto a dream that doesn't exist, it's going to sting. It's like a surfer thinking he's able to manipulate the ocean. You're not ultimately in control - remember that.

When I hear people say, "I just can't imagine myself doing anything else," it honestly makes me cringe. You guys have no idea what you're getting yourselves into.

On some level this is true and on some level I don't agree. I believe that it is quite possible to make decent money in just about any setting in optometry.

However, most people won't be satisfied with that scenario or their satisfaction will fade very very quickly.

You may THINK that you would "be ok" making $100,000 working for Walmart but after of couple of years of working every Saturday until 8:00pm and putting up the high school graduate optical manager next door and a continuous supply of Walmart patients and the constant *boop* *boop* *boop*ing of registers and patients leaving sandwich wrappers from the Subway kiosk next door to your "independent practice" then suddenly $100,000 doesn't start to look so good.

Optometry is not "what you make of it." It's how comfortable can you be with what optometry makes of YOU.

Originally Posted by KHE

In the vast majority of states, optometrists can not be employed directly by the corporation so they are hired as independent contractors or they lease space from the corporation and then operate that space as their own (theoretically) independent practice.

Either way, the onus is on you to obtain and pay for your own health insurance.

Wow that really sucks! You don't think they offer benefits that include health insurance? What if I didn't want to lease the space and maybe just be an associate for the doctor leasing the space? The Lenscrafters I worked at had a "head" OD and then an associate OD. Does that mean I have to pay rent to Lenscrafters? 0_o

Originally Posted by Optomchick

Wow that really sucks! You don't think they offer benefits that include health insurance? What if I didn't want to lease the space and maybe just be an associate for the doctor leasing the space? The Lenscrafters I worked at had a "head" OD and then an associate OD. Does that mean I have to pay rent to Lenscrafters? 0_o

In those few states where you CAN be employed directly by Lenscrafters (California is NOT one of them) you can probably participate in their health plan if you meet whatever requirements there are. (Usually you work a certain number of hourse per week.)

In the case that you are describing you would be employed by that "head" OD. If they offer health insurance (never heard of THAT happening....lol) then I guess you could participate.

But in most cases THEY hire you as an independent contractor too so you're once again on your own for health insurance.

Originally Posted by KHE

In those few states where you CAN be employed directly by Lenscrafters (California is NOT one of them) you can probably participate in their health plan if you meet whatever requirements there are. (Usually you work a certain number of hourse per week.)

In the case that you are describing you would be employed by that "head" OD. If they offer health insurance (never heard of THAT happening....lol) then I guess you could participate.

But in most cases THEY hire you as an independent contractor too so you're once again on your own for health insurance.

ah no way around it What about the paying rent part since you're "leasing"?

Originally Posted by Optomchick

ah no way around it What about the paying rent part since you're "leasing"?

What about it? If you are leasing space from Lenscrafters, you're still responsible for your own health insurance.

That can be more lucrative than working as an associate of a lease holding doctor because you collect and keep the fees so if you have a day where you see 20 patients, you've just had a great day.

However, if you have a weekday where you only see a small number of patients, you're in trouble.

Years ago when I was first out of school I had a commercial lease for a short time at Sears Optical. There were days where I would take home like $1500. There were other days where my $10 an hour secretary went home with more money than I did.

Originally Posted by Optomchick

That's not nice. I think Shurnek is going to be a great Optometrist. Although I'm not sure how he's going to convince a girl to move out to the middle of nowhere with him

Thanks! Haha I'll just show her some statistics about urbanites. http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/06...ety/27223.html

~100% higher risk for schizophrenia
39% higher risk for mood disorders

Shouldn't be so hard :P Or just find one out there.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Thanks! Haha I'll just show her some statistics about urbanites. http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/06...ety/27223.html

~100% higher risk for schizophrenia
39% higher risk for mood disorders

Shouldn't be so hard :P Or just find one out there.

Dunno what schizos have to do with this thread but they only comprise about 1% of the US population, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Happy that I'm not in OD school.

Originally Posted by BrokenClock

Happy that I'm not in OD school.

What is the point of this post?

Originally Posted by BeesKnees22

What is the point of this post?

Judging from his (BrokenClock) previous post he's either trolling or/and he's trying to feel better about himself by dissing another profession.

Originally Posted by Optomchick

ah no way around it What about the paying rent part since you're "leasing"?

That's why you have to marry well. If you have a spouse with a stable career and good benefits, you will be covered under his/her plan. Otherwise, don't count on getting health insurance or any type of benefits whatsoever working as an optometrist (unless you are employed by a corporation, which is allowed in certain states).

This is something that students should be aware of if they are considering optometry as a career.