Research oriented residency

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I know there are a few neurosurgery residencies that allow you to pursue a PhD during the research years of residency. Can someone tell me which ones let you do that. Also, there are many programs I am interested in that do not have a formal PhD option. For those, do you think there can be the possibility of asking the director(s) for a case specific allowance?

Originally Posted by drpossible

I know there are a few neurosurgery residencies that allow you to pursue a PhD during the research years of residency. Can someone tell me which ones let you do that. Also, there are many programs I am interested in that do not have a formal PhD option. For those, do you think there can be the possibility of asking the director(s) for a case specific allowance?

I had a question very similar to this. I plan on doing my neurosurgical residency at the University of Michigan. At most hospitals including U of M, you can pursue a PHD during your residency but it will add at minimum two years. I was told by someone that one of his friends when he was doing his residency pursued a PHD from a University in Toronto when he was a Umich resident. It is not uncommon for a residency program to award you an MPH during your residency. But trust me, PHDs, from what I have learned thus far, are worthless. You would be 37 at minimum by the time you would be able to pursue a career in Neurosurgery. Plus, you get paid the big bucks from doing surgeries, not research.

PM me if you have any questions.

PS Take a look at this http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/residencie...ency-minnesota

Take it from me, you would be better off doing an MD PHD program that a PHD during residency. It might help with you getting into a very good residency.

Originally Posted by genius19971995

I had a question very similar to this. I plan on doing my neurosurgical residency at the University of Michigan. At most hospitals including U of M, you can pursue a PHD during your residency but it will add at minimum two years. I was told by someone that one of his friends when he was doing his residency pursued a PHD from a University in Toronto when he was a Umich resident. It is not uncommon for a residency program to award you an MPH during your residency. But trust me, PHDs, from what I have learned thus far, are worthless. You would be 37 at minimum by the time you would be able to pursue a career in Neurosurgery. Plus, you get paid the big bucks from doing surgeries, not research.

PM me if you have any questions.

PS Take a look at this http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/residencie...ency-minnesota

Take it from me, you would be better off doing an MD PHD program that a PHD during residency. It might help with you getting into a very good residency.

Thanks. I was considering an MD-PhD but thought it would give me some more leeway if I were to go for the PhD during residency instead of before, in case I were to change my mind about it. And the age was another concern I had. 37 plus a fellowship isn't ideal to be starting out a practice.

Originally Posted by drpossible

Thanks. I was considering an MD-PhD but thought it would give me some more leeway if I were to go for the PhD during residency instead of before, in case I were to change my mind about it. And the age was another concern I had. 37 plus a fellowship isn't ideal to be starting out a practice.

Some personal advice. I would just avoid doing a PHD. You still can run a lab just being a MD neurosurgeon. Surgery is where the money is and that is where you are going to help people in the short term. If you truly have a passion for research, there are countless residencies that will offer an MPH and that have a large portion of their residency dedicated to research. I was in the same situation as you, but I decided just to pursue an MBA instead of a PHD. Because of the AP classes I took in high school, and because I am doing an all term college year, I should be able to graduate with a bachelors in neuroscience in 2 1/2 years at tops. After this I will participate in a four or five year MD / MBA program, and yes there are four year MD MBA programs. After this, I will do my neurosurgical residency and hopefully start some clinics, research institutions, and a private practice group.

If you really decide you are committed to doing a PHD, go for a MD/ PHD program because they will pay for practically your entire education and a generous stipend.

I see where you're coming from, but I just want to keep the thread on the hypothetical of actually pursuing a PhD during some point in a career.

For anyone who has actually gone through a similar situation (especially in neurosurgery), I would appreciate your perspective. I was really wondering about the rather unattractive age to just be starting a neurosurgery practice.

Regarding the unattractive age, well three-four years is not an enormous undertaking. You simply need to decide what is more important to you. Would you rather become a multimillionaire or would you rather pursue research? If you are questioning the age already I wouldn't even consider a PHD. Do you mind me asking your age?

These questions are probably best answered by someone with first hand experience. Most neurosurgeons with a PhD obtained it prior to residency. You could potentially pose your question to this attending: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=919891

However, you are still in high school. There will be plenty of time to worry about your specialty later on. The first thing you must decide is whether you are interested in doing a MD or MD/PhD once you are in college. If you are interested in just a straight MD, once you have figured out what specialty you are actually interested in THEN you can readdress the question of a combined residency-PhD program. Chances are a neurosurgery program that does not have a built in program from obtaining a PhD is going to be somewhat resistant to the idea of letting you get on. Neurosurgery residencies are very small programs, they need every person available to keep the services running smoothly.

That's what I thought. Most programs don't seem too keen on the integrated PhD. Just curious, does anyone have any stats (or estimates) on the percent of neurosurgeons with PhDs and that compared to other specialties.
The reason I was shying away from the MD/PhD is becaus if I were to go for a neuroscience PhD, then I would be limited to a neurology or neurosurgery residency, before doing any rotations. The options would be pretty limited.
And, on aside, I'm not in high school.

Out of one-hundred and seventy one residents who were matched to a neurosurgical residency, twenty possessed Ph.Ds.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

Originally Posted by drpossible

That's what I thought. Most programs don't seem too keen on the integrated PhD. Just curious, does anyone have any stats (or estimates) on the percent of neurosurgeons with PhDs and that compared to other specialties.
The reason I was shying away from the MD/PhD is becaus if I were to go for a neuroscience PhD, then I would be limited to a neurology or neurosurgery residency, before doing any rotations. The options would be pretty limited.
And, on aside, I'm not in high school.

I know neuroscience PhD's that are going into fields other than neurology and neurosurgery.

I apologize if you aren't a high schooler, I was basing based on this post:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=911227

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

I know neuroscience PhD's that are going into fields other than neurology and neurosurgery.

I apologize if you aren't a high schooler, I was basing based on this post:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=911227

The only other field I can think of is neuro-oncology or maybe psychiatry. If you don't mind, what fields did they go into?

Originally Posted by drpossible

the only other field i can think of is neuro-oncology or maybe psychiatry. If you don't mind, what fields did they go into?

im

Originally Posted by genius19971995

Out of one-hundred and seventy one residents who were matched to a neurosurgical residency, twenty possessed Ph.Ds.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

At some programs that seem to be very research oriented, rates can be much higher:

http://neurosurgery.ucsf.edu/index.p...residents.html
http://residents.neurosurgery.mgh.ha...Residents.html
http://dura.stanford.edu/CurrentResidents.html

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

im

I don't see how a neuroscience PhD would help them or be relevant. In fact it appears to be a waste of time. Did they find any practical use for the PhD?

And, alamo4, I noticed that. Some large programs have no MD/PhDs while in others half the residents have PhDs.

Originally Posted by drpossible

I don't see how a neuroscience PhD would help them or be relevant. In fact it appears to be a waste of time. Did they find any practical use for the PhD?

And, alamo4, I noticed that. Some large programs have no MD/PhDs while in others half the residents have PhDs.

No program has residents with just PhDs, did you mean professors? There are nerves in organ tissues, the one that comes to mind is a gi specialist with a lab on researching the intestinal autonomic nervous system.

Originally Posted by drpossible

I don't see how a neuroscience PhD would help them or be relevant.

Bioengineering, biophysics, electrical engineering (because what grad students in EE do is a really a vast range), etc. might enable you to do some really cool things. Maybe?

I would also point out that at least at the programs that I am familiar with, you have the option to change what you pick as the field of your PhD during the first few semesters. This will at the very least give you time to get some sense of what you want to do specialty wise.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

No program has residents with just PhDs, did you mean professors? There are nerves in organ tissues, the one that comes to mind is a gi specialist with a lab on researching the intestinal autonomic nervous system.

I was referring to residents, not attendings. It was my impression that some programs have an unusually high number of MD/PhD residents. Anyone know why this is?

Most programs do not, but the ones that do is because a hospital wants their residents to become attending(s). They do not want them to go off into private practice and not make the hospital revenue. Most MD / Ph.D residents will stay at the hospital because they want to do research. The only way to utilize your Ph.D is primarily working as an attending at a large academic center. Also, MD / Ph.D doctors can acquire large sums of money from grants because of their dual degrees.

nm