any of these residency programs bad?

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I'm applying this fall and this is my first list of potential programs. Some background: I'm at a top ranked school, step 1 is 250+, but class rank is middle 1/3 and I don't have standout EC's. I'm geographically restricted mainly to the midwest, so some of the programs I'll have to apply to are unfamiliar to me. Do you guys have any input regarding which programs to remove from my list? I don't know if any are "bad". I do know Geisinger Health System in PA is newly accredited. Thanks guys!

Illinois
University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago
University of Chicago
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University
Rush University Medical Center
Loyola University

Indiana
Indiana University School of Medicine

Iowa
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics

Kentucky
University of Kentucky College of Medicine
University of Louisville

Michigan
University of Michigan
William Beaumont Hospital
Henry Ford Hospital/ Wayne State University
Detroit Medical Center/ Wayne State University

Missouri
Washington University/ B-JH/ SLCH Consortium
St Louis University School of Medicine

North Carolina
University of North Carolina Hospitals
Wake Forest University School of Medicine
Duke University Hospital

Ohio
Ohio State University Hospital
University Hospital/ University of Cincinnati College of Medicine
Case Western Reserve University/ University Hospitals Case Medical Center
University of Toledo
Case Western Reserve University (MetroHealth)
Cleveland Clinic Foundation

Pennsylvania
UPMC Medical Education
Allegheny General Hospital- Western Pennsylvania Hospital Medical Education Consortium (WPH)
Geisinger Health System
Penn State University/ Milton S Hershey Medical Center
Drexel University College of Medicine/ Hahnemann University Hospital
University of Pennsylvania
Thomas Jefferson University
Temple University Hospital

Tennessee
University of Tennessee Medical Center at Knoxville
Vanderbilt University

Virginia
University of Virginia
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System

West Virginia
West Virginia University

Yes, some of those listed are "bad".

Duke leads the pack on your list. You will have your choice of places, most likely.

Go there.

doubtful anyone is going to burn a specific program on here. i think its fairly easy to tier these and from there do some research about what each offers, relative to what you are interested in. After that, I think specific questions about programs to people in the know would be the best way to gather information.

Thanks for the input

Wash U & and Duke are top of that list.

Not sure if the Chicago programs are good or bad, but my experience has been that people from there are pretty weak, both in knowledge and skills.

Originally Posted by urge

Wash U & and Duke are top of that list.

Not sure if the Chicago programs are good or bad, but my experience has been that people from there are pretty weak, both in knowledge and skills.

Burn!

I agree.

I'd say the same for Pennsylvania programs - overrated.

Upon further review, I'm thinking:

Ohio State University Hospital
University Hospital/ University of Cincinnati College of Medicine
Case Western Reserve University/ University Hospitals Case Medical Center
University of Toledo
Case Western Reserve University (MetroHealth)
Cleveland Clinic Foundation

Washington University/ B-JH/ SLCH Consortium
St Louis University School of Medicine

Indiana University School of Medicine

University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago
University of Chicago
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University
Rush University Medical Center
Loyola University

University of Kentucky College of Medicine
University of Louisville

University of Michigan
William Beaumont Hospital
Henry Ford Hospital/ Wayne State University
Detroit Medical Center/ Wayne State University

University of North Carolina Hospitals
Wake Forest University School of Medicine
Duke University Hospital

University of Pittsburgh (UPMC) Medical Education
Penn State University/ Milton S Hershey Medical Center

University of Tennessee Medical Center at Knoxville
Vanderbilt University

University of Virginia
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System

West Virginia University

Johns Hopkins University
University of Maryland

University of Buffalo
University of Rochester

Originally Posted by urge

Not sure if the Chicago programs are good or bad, but my experience has been that people from there are pretty weak, both in knowledge and skills.

We used to have a female coworker trained in Chicago (I think it was U of Chicago) and she was a superb anesthesiologist. No weaknesses there, either of knowledge or skills. I guess it must be highly variable from one person to another. And of course, things may have changed since she graduated 20 years ago.

Detroit, St. Louis, and Chapel Hill are worlds apart. Are you really geographically restricted? You might want to rethink that. It could open up your possibilities. What do you want to be close to?

Instead of ranking everything prematurely by name recognition, try to do some research about each institution and their program's "quirks." if you're geographically limited, try to find if a program farms you out to other places (UK goes to Houston for hearts IIRC) for some rotations. Decide if you want to be in a heavily urban area vs less urban vs suburban vs fairly rural. It's not fun worrying about your safety going to work, no matter how good the name may sound. Remember that you have to live there for 4 years, so try to find a place that offers what matters to you. Furthermore, remember that it's easier to find a job in closer to where you trained simply because networking and interviewing locally is easier. Finally, try to find a program that is strong in whatever area you may want to pursue (ie hearts, peds, pain, etc). Getting a fellowship at your home institution may be easier... But also keep in mind that a program without a fellowship may allow more interesting opportunities as a resident (like Jewish Hospital in Louisville).

I also tell everyone to look around the room during their interviews. If you like the people with whom you're interviewing you'll likely be happier for those 4 years than if you don't feel like you click with anyone.

Just remember that there's no perfect program and in the end you become the physician you make yourself to be, regardless of whatever name is printed on your certificate.

Originally Posted by nimbus

Detroit, St. Louis, and Chapel Hill are worlds apart. Are you really geographically restricted? You might want to rethink that. It could open up your possibilities. What do you want to be close to?

Family, for several reasons. I know there are plenty of good programs I'm ignoring right off the bat, and that's OK with me. Location is absolutely the most important thing in my case. I just don't want to waste time with any terrible programs, and I don't think my list has (m)any bad ones.

Originally Posted by lane

Instead of ranking everything prematurely by name recognition, try to do some research about each institution and their program's "quirks." if you're geographically limited, try to find if a program farms you out to other places (UK goes to Houston for hearts IIRC) for some rotations. Decide if you want to be in a heavily urban area vs less urban vs suburban vs fairly rural. It's not fun worrying about your safety going to work, no matter how good the name may sound. Remember that you have to live there for 4 years, so try to find a place that offers what matters to you. Furthermore, remember that it's easier to find a job in closer to where you trained simply because networking and interviewing locally is easier. Finally, try to find a program that is strong in whatever area you may want to pursue (ie hearts, peds, pain, etc). Getting a fellowship at your home institution may be easier... But also keep in mind that a program without a fellowship may allow more interesting opportunities as a resident (like Jewish Hospital in Louisville).

I also tell everyone to look around the room during their interviews. If you like the people with whom you're interviewing you'll likely be happier for those 4 years than if you don't feel like you click with anyone.

Just remember that there's no perfect program and in the end you become the physician you make yourself to be, regardless of whatever name is printed on your certificate.

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate your time. I just wanted to say I actually didn't include anything on my list because of name recognition... There are 132 ACGME accredited programs, only 37 of which fit my geographic limitations (<7.5 hour drive from home), then I removed 3 I wasn't interested in after checking out all the program websites for a grand total of 34. I pretty much know how I would rank my top 8 programs if I got interviews to all of them (which I'm sure won't happen, and it's not the places you'd think), and the remaining 26 programs are just backups unless I'm super impressed at the interview.

It's not premature to rank Duke and WashU as two of the top programs on his list.

Duke is unquestionably the best one on his list.

Originally Posted by lane

Instead of ranking everything prematurely by name recognition, try to do some research about each institution and their program's "quirks." if you're geographically limited, try to find if a program farms you out to other places (UK goes to Houston for hearts IIRC) for some rotations. Decide if you want to be in a heavily urban area vs less urban vs suburban vs fairly rural. It's not fun worrying about your safety going to work, no matter how good the name may sound. Remember that you have to live there for 4 years, so try to find a place that offers what matters to you. Furthermore, remember that it's easier to find a job in closer to where you trained simply because networking and interviewing locally is easier. Finally, try to find a program that is strong in whatever area you may want to pursue (ie hearts, peds, pain, etc). Getting a fellowship at your home institution may be easier... But also keep in mind that a program without a fellowship may allow more interesting opportunities as a resident (like Jewish Hospital in Louisville).

I also tell everyone to look around the room during their interviews. If you like the people with whom you're interviewing you'll likely be happier for those 4 years than if you don't feel like you click with anyone.

Just remember that there's no perfect program and in the end you become the physician you make yourself to be, regardless of whatever name is printed on your certificate.

OP -

As I'm sure you appreciate, each of us can really only reliably comment on our own residency experiences at our own programs. That said, the midwest, by reputation, holds a group of very strong anesthesiology programs.

Despite the assertions of others who are not at our program, I think the UPMC program is particularly outstanding, in terms of clinical volumes/exposure, lifestyle, research opportunities, etc. I think it's worth your while to check us out, if you're considering western Pennsylvania.

Best of luck with your residency search, and please let me know if you have questions about UPMC.

Originally Posted by bigdan

OP -

As I'm sure you appreciate, each of us can really only reliably comment on our own residency experiences at our own programs. That said, the midwest, by reputation, holds a group of very strong anesthesiology programs.

Despite the assertions of others who are not at our program, I think the UPMC program is particularly outstanding, in terms of clinical volumes/exposure, lifestyle, research opportunities, etc. I think it's worth your while to check us out, if you're considering western Pennsylvania.

Best of luck with your residency search, and please let me know if you have questions about UPMC.

Thanks bigdan, western PA is definitely convenient for me geographically. I know I like the area, and I was actually all set to go to Pitt for med school but then changed at the last minute for financial aid reasons. I'll keep you in mind and contact you when I have some clear questions about the program

Originally Posted by bigdan

OP -

As I'm sure you appreciate, each of us can really only reliably comment on our own residency experiences at our own programs. That said, the midwest, by reputation, holds a group of very strong anesthesiology programs.

Despite the assertions of others who are not at our program, I think the UPMC program is particularly outstanding, in terms of clinical volumes/exposure, lifestyle, research opportunities, etc. I think it's worth your while to check us out, if you're considering western Pennsylvania.

Best of luck with your residency search, and please let me know if you have questions about UPMC.

Whoever said UPMC wasn't outstanding?

OP should do him/herself a favor in the current job market and go to Duke or JHU.

Originally Posted by Coastie

Whoever said UPMC wasn't outstanding?

OP should do him/herself a favor in the current job market and go to Duke or JHU.

Spoken as if I'd just waltz right into either of those places I'll bet there are enough 260+/AOA/top 10 school types to beat me out for those spots.

While I'm fairly certain my chances at those places are slim to none, I'll definitely apply.

Originally Posted by WashMe

Spoken as if I'd just waltz right into either of those places I'll bet there are enough 260+/AOA/top 10 school types to beat me out for those spots.

While I'm fairly certain my chances at those places are slim to none, I'll definitely apply.

actually I just looked at charting outcomes 2011, and only 98 of the 1136 people going for anesthesia scored >250 on step 1... I know it's a one-dimensional measure of an applicant, but I might actually have a shot at Duke and JHU. WashU is my home institution so I think I'll get a fair consideration. I just need to hope most of the better applicants try to go to MGH, BID, Brigham, UPenn, UCSF, UCLA, Stanford, etc., and those programs have a ton of spots so if I'm lucky they'll soak up my competition

Originally Posted by urge

Not sure if the Chicago programs are good or bad, but my experience has been that people from there are pretty weak, both in knowledge and skills.

We have huge penises though.


(Just mocking the gross generalization.)

Originally Posted by WashMe

actually I just looked at charting outcomes 2011, and only 98 of the 1136 people going for anesthesia scored >250 on step 1... I know it's a one-dimensional measure of an applicant, but I might actually have a shot at Duke and JHU. WashU is my home institution so I think I'll get a fair consideration. I just need to hope most of the better applicants try to go to MGH, BID, Brigham, UPenn, UCSF, UCLA, Stanford, etc., and those programs have a ton of spots so if I'm lucky they'll soak up my competition

If you have a 250 and went to WashU you will probably get an interview at every program on your list. The midwestern programs are excellent, many would argue better than those on the coasts, but because of location do not draw the people that want to be on the beach or in the northeast. For extra security you could spend your summer doing some research, there are some great projects going on at WashU with big names which would get you great letters too.

Originally Posted by ambiturner

If you have a 250 and went to WashU you will probably get an interview at every program on your list. The midwestern programs are excellent, many would argue better than those on the coasts, but because of location do not draw the people that want to be on the beach or in the northeast. For extra security you could spend your summer doing some research, there are some great projects going on at WashU with big names which would get you great letters too.

Thanks for the vote of confidence and the suggestion!

This may seem rhetorical, but, wouldn't the resident's work ethic and focus on education do more for them than the brand name of an institution?

I would think it really comes down to the hard work that the individual does with the instruction they receive. But are the attending physicians at BID, Johns Hopkins, Mayo, etc that much better teachers than the attending physicians at less prestigious places?

Originally Posted by D P356

This may seem rhetorical, but, wouldn't the resident's work ethic and focus on education do more for them than the brand name of an institution?

I would think it really comes down to the hard work that the individual does with the instruction they receive. But are the attending physicians at BID, Johns Hopkins, Mayo, etc that much better teachers than the attending physicians at less prestigious places?

Brand name is one thing, and it usually has little to do with your attendings being "good teachers" than it does with case volume, mix and complexity. big name medical centers do lots of big complex cases. Community hospitals rarely do thoracoabdominal aneurysms, liver transplants, pheochromocytomas, hemicorpectomies, etc. Big name programs tend to do those things. Of course, just because a big name program has these things happen on their campus doesn't necessarily mean that you as a resident sit loads of these cases, so you have to look more closely at how and when (or if) and in what capacity residents will be exposed to these cases. Some big name places have lots of fellows that sit these cases (rather than the residents) whereas others are sat by residents with fellows in more of a supervisory role, etc.

In general, bigger names have bigger volumes with more complexity, but you have to really talk to the residents/PDs/etc (say, at an interview) to figure out if you're going to get the education you want at that particular program. It takes some time and effort to identify the program that's right for you, but ultimately it is time very well spent.

Okay...I know this thread is from June but I couldn't resist responding.

All Chicago programs are not created equal and I have no idea where people have heard that Chicago residents are lacking in knowledge or skill... because I find that to be the most absurd generalization!

Having interviewed at the four top institutions in Chicago and talking to residents at these institutions in depth, here is my general impression of them.

Northwestern and UChicago are the programs that, if you're planning on moving elsewhere after residency, have the strongest national reputation.

NW: great training program. Strong OB/peds but lacking in trauma experience.
UChicago: strong in research and very high risk population overall (most patients are uninsured with multiple uncontrolled comorbidities, so here you'll get training taking care of very sick patients). Hidden gem is NorthShore (hospital in Evanston, IL) where residents can spend up to half their residency if they wanted. It's a great hospital, with excellent research opportunities and solid didactics).
Rush: strong regional and pain experiences. Seems cardiac and ICU are lacking a bit. Chairman is well connected and residents tend to have zero problem getting great fellowship placement. Just doesn't have the national reputation that NW/UofC has.
Loyola: didactics are rather weak here, but given the breadth of clinical exposure, I wouldn't say it's a bad place to train. Just doesn't have the same reputation as the others.

I only applied to these programs, UIC is probably tied with Loyola with regards to "brand name", and I have not heard anything about Masonic/Cook County so I can't comment on those. Hope this helps the next group of interviewees to understand Chicago programs a little bit better!

Originally Posted by D P356

This may seem rhetorical, but, wouldn't the resident's work ethic and focus on education do more for them than the brand name of an institution?

I would think it really comes down to the hard work that the individual does with the instruction they receive. But are the attending physicians at BID, Johns Hopkins, Mayo, etc that much better teachers than the attending physicians at less prestigious places?

No. Well sometimes. Not necessarily though. In my experience the faculty have fewer weak links knowledge wise at bigger name places, but that doesn't help if they don't teach.
I'd prefer having a few really knowledgable attendings interested in teaching at an average program compared to having lots of smart attendings who don't teach.
Prestige is all about research which is of little to no value in the real world unless you actually want to do research in your future career.

Originally Posted by urge

Wash U & and Duke are top of that list.

Not sure if the Chicago programs are good or bad, but my experience has been that people from there are pretty weak, both in knowledge and skills.

I don't know, I trained at University of Chicago and I'm amazing.

Originally Posted by cchoukal

I don't know, I trained at University of Chicago and I'm amazing.

And humble!

I was looking at his list and there are a bunch of places at which I'd love to train. If my S/O didn't abhor Chicago, those programs may be on the list too.

Originally Posted by dancer22

Okay...I know this thread is from June but I couldn't resist responding.

All Chicago programs are not created equal and I have no idea where people have heard that Chicago residents are lacking in knowledge or skill... because I find that to be the most absurd generalization!

Having interviewed at the four top institutions in Chicago and talking to residents at these institutions in depth, here is my general impression of them.

Northwestern and UChicago are the programs that, if you're planning on moving elsewhere after residency, have the strongest national reputation.

NW: great training program. Strong OB/peds but lacking in trauma experience.
UChicago: strong in research and very high risk population overall (most patients are uninsured with multiple uncontrolled comorbidities, so here you'll get training taking care of very sick patients). Hidden gem is NorthShore (hospital in Evanston, IL) where residents can spend up to half their residency if they wanted. It's a great hospital, with excellent research opportunities and solid didactics).
Rush: strong regional and pain experiences. Seems cardiac and ICU are lacking a bit. Chairman is well connected and residents tend to have zero problem getting great fellowship placement. Just doesn't have the national reputation that NW/UofC has.
Loyola: didactics are rather weak here, but given the breadth of clinical exposure, I wouldn't say it's a bad place to train. Just doesn't have the same reputation as the others.

I only applied to these programs, UIC is probably tied with Loyola with regards to "brand name", and I have not heard anything about Masonic/Cook County so I can't comment on those. Hope this helps the next group of interviewees to understand Chicago programs a little bit better!

I'd have to agree with this statement. Chicago is an amazing city with tons of potential for personal and professional growth. People are in love with NYC and the northeast, but I see Chitown as a smaller, cleaner and much friendlier NYC.

In terms of the programs, I agree with the above, but want to add that with the huge new hospital which just opened at Rush...that place is only going to get better in the future. Also, Rush is definitely wired into the PP groups in the area, so getting a job coming from there would be very easy.

Top 3 chicago programs: NW, U of C, Rush. To me, its very analogous to the NYC triad: Columbia, Cornell, Mt. Sinai. The third name in each triad is a regional powerhouse but perhaps doesn't have as much "national name recognition".

Go to a residency program in the region that you eventually want to settle. If you want to practice in Wisconsin, you must do your residency at MCW. If you want to practice in Michigan go to UM or Beaumont. Nothing good in Chicago because you really don't want top settle in Illinois. Reimbursements suck and jobs are horrible. To add to that, the medmal is really high.

Originally Posted by Wiscoblue

Go to a residency program in the region that you eventually want to settle. If you want to practice in Wisconsin, you must do your residency at MCW. If you want to practice in Michigan go to UM or Beaumont. Nothing good in Chicago because you really don't want top settle in Illinois. Reimbursements suck and jobs are horrible. To add to that, the medmal is really high.

As much as I agree with this, it's probably better to go to a big time, well known program wherever, rather than settle for a mediocre regional program. You never know how the job market will play out and you can't go wrong with acquiring the best training possible.Even if you want to settle down out west, I don't think training at Michigan will inhibit that.

Why Beaumont over DMC or HF in Michigan?