Podiatric Medical College Information Book for Entering Class of 2012

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I came across the income information published in the Podiatric Medical College Information Book for Entering Class of 2012 and the average net income is said be $190,670 in 2008! Does anyone know which part of the U.S. this number applies to since all other sources (e.g. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Web sites of podiatry schools, etc.) mention a much lower number. The number in this information book seems to be WAY exaggerated. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Originally Posted by challenger22

I came across the income information published in the Podiatric Medical College Information Book for Entering Class of 2012 and the average net income is said be $190,670 in 2008! Does anyone know which part of the U.S. this number applies to since all other sources (e.g. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Web sites of podiatry schools, etc.) mention a much lower number. The number in this information book seems to be WAY exaggerated. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Average can "mean" a few different things.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/arch.../t-239870.html (keep in mind, this link is old).

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the published numbers. I've shadowed a couple pods and I have also spoken with a few more.

There are 33 podiatrist in my hometown/city. Each one of them said that an established podiatrist (own office, a part of ortho group, etc.) generally earn between $85,000-110,000. There are obviously some that earn less and some that earn more. Also, this is for MY town. It is a small city and several of the podiatrist I've shadowed in the area said the city is becoming saturated.

Apparently, podiatrist in rural towns make a lot more because there are usually only 1-2 podiatrist covering that area.

Originally Posted by challenger22

I came across the income information published in the Podiatric Medical College Information Book for Entering Class of 2012 and the average net income is said be $190,670 in 2008! Does anyone know which part of the U.S. this number applies to since all other sources (e.g. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Web sites of podiatry schools, etc.) mention a much lower number. The number in this information book seems to be WAY exaggerated. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Considering the source I'm not surprised the numbers are inflated. The book is doing its job in attracting interest.

Originally Posted by frankcfromny

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the published numbers. I've shadowed a couple pods and I have also spoken with a few more.

There are 33 podiatrist in my hometown/city. Each one of them said that an established podiatrist (own office, a part of ortho group, etc.) generally earn between $85,000-110,000. There are obviously some that earn less and some that earn more. Also, this is for MY town. It is a small city and several of the podiatrist I've shadowed in the area said the city is becoming saturated.

Apparently, podiatrist in rural towns make a lot more because there are usually only 1-2 podiatrist covering that area.

I think the range you gave is really low, even BLS reports median income higher than that. I would agree if you have that range for brand new pod starting out, perhaps.

I think rural pods as a whole make less, because they pull from a much smaller patient base.

Originally Posted by frankcfromny

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the published numbers. I've shadowed a couple pods and I have also spoken with a few more.

There are 33 podiatrist in my hometown/city. Each one of them said that an established podiatrist (own office, a part of ortho group, etc.) generally earn between $85,000-110,000. There are obviously some that earn less and some that earn more. Also, this is for MY town. It is a small city and several of the podiatrist I've shadowed in the area said the city is becoming saturated.

Apparently, podiatrist in rural towns make a lot more because there are usually only 1-2 podiatrist covering that area.

I would assume then it's disposable income, otherwise ~100k as pretax income is a bit too low for any medical profession

Jonwill, once said......

"I have a hard time believing any of the reports. The numerous people that I have followed that have gotten out of residency are starting anywhere from $120,000-$150,000. I've seen enough of this now to believe that this is a pretty accurate standard for guys coming out of residency. A lot of multi-specialty and orthopaedic groups are now realizing how much money we can make for them and they are willing to pay for it. As far as the "reports" are concerned, there are just too many factors involved to be accurate (part-timers, small private practices, etc). In my hometown in NM, the group that I am interested in is starting pods out at $130K. After 10 years, they have told me to expect making high 100's or low 200's. Keep in mind that all of my friends have ended up in multi-specialty and ortho groups, which seems to be where most pods are ending up these days."

Originally Posted by Sabin

Jonwill, once said......

"I have a hard time believing any of the reports. The numerous people that I have followed that have gotten out of residency are starting anywhere from $120,000-$150,000. I've seen enough of this now to believe that this is a pretty accurate standard for guys coming out of residency. A lot of multi-specialty and orthopaedic groups are now realizing how much money we can make for them and they are willing to pay for it. As far as the "reports" are concerned, there are just too many factors involved to be accurate (part-timers, small private practices, etc). In my hometown in NM, the group that I am interested in is starting pods out at $130K. After 10 years, they have told me to expect making high 100's or low 200's. Keep in mind that all of my friends have ended up in multi-specialty and ortho groups, which seems to be where most pods are ending up these days."

Key part of the quote. These avenues offer higher salaries than joining a solo practicioner or opening your own practice.

Originally Posted by challenger22

I came across the income information published in the Podiatric Medical College Information Book for Entering Class of 2012 and the average net income is said be $190,670 in 2008! Does anyone know which part of the U.S. this number applies to since all other sources (e.g. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Web sites of podiatry schools, etc.) mention a much lower number. The number in this information book seems to be WAY exaggerated. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Do you have a copy of the "book" or did you see it online as coming from the book/publication. And did you by chance notice if there was anything about the AAPPM having put it together?

Originally Posted by MaxillofacialMN

I think the range you gave is really low, even BLS reports median income higher than that. I would agree if you have that range for brand new pod starting out, perhaps.

I think rural pods as a whole make less, because they pull from a much smaller patient base.

I was surprised too, but that was what pretty much every pod told me. I think podiatry and optometry have some of the most fluctuating incomes. I think that there is a good chance of earning a very good income, but it is not always set in stone like the income of a primary care physician or something like that.
Plus, I think by rural they mean medium sized towns in the middle of no where. Not the stereotype of a rural town which would include like two shops and a diner.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

Do you have a copy of the "book" or did you see it online as coming from the book/publication. And did you by chance notice if there was anything about the AAPPM having put it together?

I have a copy of the book he's talking about. It's put together by the APMA, I don't know who the AAPPM is though. If I can find it in one of the boxes of my college stuff, I'll let you know.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

Do you have a copy of the "book" or did you see it online as coming from the book/publication. And did you by chance notice if there was anything about the AAPPM having put it together?

You can find the book under the Career Zone section of AACPM Web site: http://www.aacpm.org/html/careerzone/index.asp. There's also a link called "What do DPMs earn?" on the same page which lists the same information. They said to be from the APMA 2008 Podiatric Practice Survey. It would be more informative if people who mention the income they've heard also mention the city or at least the state, too. I'm specifically interested in the income range for New York and nearby states (e.g. New Jersey, Connecticut) and from the research I've done the income range published by AACPM seems too good to be true for these areas due to the limited scope of practice. I think the orthopedic groups that hire podiatrists with higher than average salaries are more common in the Midwest.

Basically, unless someone attends a very good surgical residency program (which are very few of them) and practices in an area with relatively broader scope of practice the common income earned is in low $100K for the first 10 years or so. That's why there are so many different versions of podiatrists! It's just surprising that podiatry organizations tend to mention the higher end of the income range as the average.

Originally Posted by challenger22

You can find the book under the Career Zone section of AACPM Web site: http://www.aacpm.org/html/careerzone/index.asp. There's also a link called "What do DPMs earn?" on the same page which lists the same information. They said to be from the APMA 2008 Podiatric Practice Survey. It would be more informative if people who mention the income they've heard also mention the city or at least the state, too. I'm specifically interested in the income range for New York and nearby states (e.g. New Jersey, Connecticut) and from the research I've done the income range published by AACPM seems too good to be true for these areas due to the limited scope of practice. I think the orthopedic groups that hire podiatrists with higher than average salaries are more common in the Midwest.

Basically, unless someone attends a very good surgical residency program (which are very few of them) and practices in an area with relatively broader scope of practice the common income earned is in low $100K for the first 10 years or so. That's why there are so many different versions of podiatrists! It's just surprising that podiatry organizations tend to mention the higher end of the income range as the average.

NJ is prob the least restricted in the country. Hence why the state is so saturated with podiatrists.

AAPPM is the American Academy of Podiatric Practice Management. I was curious because their survey would be just as biased as an APMA or AACPM survey would be. Which is why it may look high.

Though the more I work with, speak with, shadow, etc. podiatrists in the Midwest and West coast, as well as residents who are just finishing residency, the more I'd agree with the higher numbers you see.

Nobody entering this field should be worried about not making $150K after a few years out (and that number is low IMO but I know how others on this site feel so I'll keep it at a level they can be comfortable with). Every program is 3 years in length, and every program will get you the numbers to be a desirable hire for a multi-specialty or hospital group with ABPS Foot cert (if you so choose). You don't need RRA cert to make $400k...ask diabeticfootdr

Originally Posted by dtrack22

AAPPM is the American Academy of Podiatric Practice Management. I was curious because their survey would be just as biased as an APMA or AACPM survey would be. Which is why it may look high.

Though the more I work with, speak with, shadow, etc. podiatrists in the Midwest and West coast, as well as residents who are just finishing residency, the more I'd agree with the higher numbers you see.

Nobody entering this field should be worried about not making $150K after a few years out (and that number is low IMO but I know how others on this site feel so I'll keep it at a level they can be comfortable with). Every program is 3 years in length, and every program will get you the numbers to be a desirable hire for a multi-specialty or hospital group with ABPS Foot cert (if you so choose). You don't need RRA cert to make $400k...ask diabeticfootdr

I just found the book: "APMA 2008 Podiatric Practice Survey." So, it's from 2008 and from APMA

Also, diabeticfootdr is running for congress and has a huge limb-salvage center he is in charge of... so yeah.... he's making $$$$

Had my last day of shadowing today and sat down with the office manager to discuss potential earnings if I came back to practice in my hometown. Currently, the two podiatrists in town make $160,000 annually. This number is before taxes. Pretty depressing.

Originally Posted by iVTECdailyy

Had my last day of shadowing today and sat down with the office manager to discuss potential earnings if I came back to practice in my hometown. Currently, the two podiatrists in town make $160,000 annually. This number is before taxes. Pretty depressing.

Uhhhh... What? Is this a joke??

Originally Posted by MaxillofacialMN

Uhhhh... What? Is this a joke??

No joke. I was shocked. The reason is that most of the patients are medicare and medicaid patients. MA should not even be considered insurance.

These two podiatrists are the only ones in a 30 mile radius. Outside of those 30 miles is the middle of nowhere. When I was shadowing, they would see (on average) 70 patients a day in the office. About 3 hospital surgeries a week. One day of wound care in the hospital.

Originally Posted by iVTECdailyy

Had my last day of shadowing today and sat down with the office manager to discuss potential earnings if I came back to practice in my hometown. Currently, the two podiatrists in town make $160,000 annually. This number is before taxes. Pretty depressing.

How is that depressing? That is well above the median salary for a podiatrist.

The podiatrist that I have been shadowing say that it takes some podiatrist 5+ years to make it into the six figure range.

Originally Posted by iVTECdailyy

No joke. I was shocked. The reason is that most of the patients are medicare and medicaid patients. MA should not even be considered insurance.

These two podiatrists are the only ones in a 30 mile radius. Outside of those 30 miles is the middle of nowhere. When I was shadowing, they would see (on average) 70 patients a day in the office. About 3 hospital surgeries a week. One day of wound care in the hospital.

I mean, I don't know why you think these pods have it bad... 160k is pretty good.... I don't know how densely populated this thirty mile radius is, but 30 mile radius is pretty huge.... Also, of they're seeing 70 patients a day... I think this town needs more pods...

Originally Posted by frankcfromny

How is that depressing? That is well above the median salary for a podiatrist.

The podiatrist that I have been shadowing say that it takes some podiatrist 5+ years to make it into the six figure range.

Really it takes 7 years to make that much. 4 years of school and 3 years of residency. But seriously, if you aren't making over $100k right out of residency it is because you chose not to. ie you took a job for that little on purpose.

As for the other anecdotal evidence about the guys who see 35 patients a day each, do some surgery, a day of wound care, and make $160k before taxes. They are doing something wrong or exaggerating about their income. Their overhead is too high, they aren't billing correctly, something. Those numbers don't really add up unless they are taking 4 months of vacation throughout the year....

Originally Posted by dtrack22

Really it takes 7 years to make that much. 4 years of school and 3 years of residency. But seriously, if you aren't making over $100k right out of residency it is because you chose not to. ie you took a job for that little on purpose.

As for the other anecdotal evidence about the guys who see 35 patients a day each, do some surgery, a day of wound care, and make $160k before taxes. They are doing something wrong or exaggerating about their income. Their overhead is too high, they aren't billing correctly, something. Those numbers don't really add up unless they are taking 4 months of vacation throughout the year....

The office manager sat down with me and showed me how billings work each month. The figures they are making are after paying their employees. I am not sure about exaggerating, overhead, or their vacations.

Woah woah woah, let me clarify.

Are these guys somehow seeing 70 patients each a day, or are they seeing 35?

I was super confused when i thought it was 70 a day each, but now that dtrack said 35, it makes a lot more sense....

Originally Posted by MaxillofacialMN

Woah woah woah, let me clarify.

Are these guys somehow seeing 70 patients each a day, or are they seeing 35?

I was super confused when i thought it was 70 a day each, but now that dtrack said 35, it makes a lot more sense....

Sorry, to clarify: The office sees 70 patients. Each doctor sees about 35. Office opens at 7 and closes at 5.

In my opinion (after seeing both doctors run the office), I believe they could work much faster (and continue to provide great treatment). The office was definitely not as efficient as it could be. The doctors were often times very slow and very much into socializing with patients and nurses (some socialization necessary to build patient relationships, but sometimes it was overdone).

One of the doctors told me that the national average for patient wait time in the waiting room was one hour. Many of these patients would wait close to 45 minutes. Not sure how true this is but I feel that patients should not be waiting this long when they have set appointments. I know in my father's office, patients wait less than 10 minutes.

There are plenty of multispecialty groups/ortho groups that are starting off associates at $150,000 plus WITH potential to buy in and partner and I assume then make significantly more. Starting salaries are only getting higher and higher and ~seven years from now when we graduate I think things will only be better. One multispecialty group that I know of was starting associates off at $120,000 about five years ago. Now they're starting associates off at $150,000 for whatever reason. It's sad to think that some podiatrists take seven years to earn what a freshly graduated resident earns in their first year. It is known that podiatry only practices pay significantly less to their associates. If one desires an initial higher salary, then I say they should look for ortho groups/multispecialty groups who are potentially willing to start off their associates at $200,000.

Originally Posted by willingdoc

There are plenty of multispecialty groups/ortho groups that are starting off associates at $150,000 plus WITH potential to buy in and partner and I assume then make significantly more. Starting salaries are only getting higher and higher and ~seven years from now when we graduate I think things will only be better. One multispecialty group that I know of was starting associates off at $120,000 about five years ago. Now they're starting associates off at $150,000 for whatever reason. It's sad to think that some podiatrists take seven years to earn what a freshly graduated resident earns in their first year. It is known that podiatry only practices pay significantly less to their associates. If one desires an initial higher salary, then I say they should look for ortho groups/multispecialty groups who are potentially willing to start off their associates at $200,000.

What "freshly graduated resident" makes over 60k a year...?

EDIT: wait, do you mean someone fresh out of residency?

Originally Posted by willingdoc

There are plenty of multispecialty groups/ortho groups that are starting off associates at $150,000 plus WITH potential to buy in and partner and I assume then make significantly more. Starting salaries are only getting higher and higher and ~seven years from now when we graduate I think things will only be better. One multispecialty group that I know of was starting associates off at $120,000 about five years ago. Now they're starting associates off at $150,000 for whatever reason. It's sad to think that some podiatrists take seven years to earn what a freshly graduated resident earns in their first year. It is known that podiatry only practices pay significantly less to their associates. If one desires an initial higher salary, then I say they should look for ortho groups/multispecialty groups who are potentially willing to start off their associates at $200,000.

Also, a lot of Ortho groups will not allow a Pod to become a "Partner". Some Multi-specialty groups are the same. You can still earn good money as an "Associate" though.

Yes I was referring to someone who just graduated from residency.

Originally Posted by Sabin

Also, a lot of Ortho groups will not allow a Pod to become a "Partner". Some Multi-specialty groups are the same. You can still earn good money as an "Associate" though.

I thought this was only because of regulations not just the discretion of the Orthopods. Maybe I thought wrong.