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Originally Posted by Polynikes

That's because today's young adults are soft and weak. Thank God for the Marine Corps.

Or for having a job in at least some form since the age of 15 and not having parents that bought me anything besides the basic necessities to live.

I totally agree with you Polynikes about the financial responsibility and paying the loans off ASAP rather than spending the entire salary on things you don't need. I personally think I live quite a nice lifestyle now - good sized place (though rented) for my boyfriend and I, a good functional car bought new at the end of 2010, pretty good vacations the last two years, good quality clothes that are not from Kmart (as someone suggested you must do) - and this is definitely affordable on a resident's salary even with some student and car loan repayments, maxing out the roth ira, and hitting our employer match in the 401k. Even with an increase in money as an attending, I don't see the expenses going up too much - we don't need more space (it also seems like more hassle than it's worth for a much bigger place) and my car will be paid off, with plans to drive it until it dies. Loans will be taken care of pretty quickly the way I live and retirement accounts maximized so we'll likely be spending the extra money on big vacations and early retirement.

I don't judge anyone that chooses to spend the money while debt grows and retirement accounts are neglected, but if that's the path one chooses, I don't understand the griping about how it's hard to pay off monthly expenses and/or debts that one freely chooses to take on for him/herself. Especially when one's own salary is multiple times higher than the average family income in this country.

Originally Posted by Polynikes

That's because today's young adults are soft and weak

I'm not that young myself, but this sentiment is expressed generation after generation.

Originally Posted by Dharma

I'm not that young myself, but this sentiment is expressed generation after generation.

LOL, yeah I know.

The generation born in 7th century BC must have been seriously locked on.

Originally Posted by Polynikes

LOL, yeah I know.

The generation born in 7th century BC must have been seriously locked on.

they were tough SOBs!

I do find it comical when people on these forums make it sound like living on 50-60k/year is total poverty. My family lives on 50k per year in an expensive city in a pretty expensive state, and we live a wonderful lifestyle with 2 cars, nice rented house, good quality food, eating out once in awhile, taking some fun roadtrips here and there, good quality clothes, overall a nice quality of life. I will have >300k of loans to repay in the end, and I don't see why I can't pay them of within five years. If I make 200k/year and after all expenses and taxes that becomes 140k/yr (I'm just guessing here), pay 70k/yr toward loans and have 70k/yr to live on, I'll be psyched! I feel like I'd be living large right there, and I'd be taking home more than the majority of people in this county and the world. Then after its payed off in five years I'll feel crazy wealthy living on 140/yr. Geez if people are buying mansions and fancy cars before paying off loans, no wonder it's an issue them. People make it sound like "living like a resident" is the worst doomsday situation in the world. I do wonder how many people on SDN have spent years working a crappy job for 30k/yr before going into med school. My past ten years of working crappy low paying jobs makes me very excited to have the opportunity to go to med school.

Originally Posted by sandstone

I do find it comical when people on these forums make it sound like living on 50-60k/year is total poverty. My family lives on 50k per year in an expensive city in a pretty expensive state, and we live a wonderful lifestyle with 2 cars, nice rented house, good quality food, eating out once in awhile, taking some fun roadtrips here and there, good quality clothes, overall a nice quality of life. I will have >300k of loans to repay in the end, and I don't see why I can't pay them of within five years. If I make 200k/year and after all expenses and taxes that becomes 140k/yr (I'm just guessing here), pay 70k/yr toward loans and have 70k/yr to live on, I'll be psyched! I feel like I'd be living large right there, and I'd be taking home more than the majority of people in this county and the world. Then after its payed off in five years I'll feel crazy wealthy living on 140/yr. Geez if people are buying mansions and fancy cars before paying off loans, no wonder it's an issue them. People make it sound like "living like a resident" is the worst doomsday situation in the world. I do wonder how many people on SDN have spent years working a crappy job for 30k/yr before going into med school. My past ten years of working crappy low paying jobs makes me very excited to have the opportunity to go to med school.

I'm of the same mindset as you, except that historically (probably not anymore in this economic climate), you will make more money by investing yours, which supposedly could garner you higher returns than your loan interest rates. I don't know of people still say that, but I personally will take a two or three percent "pay cut" over five years to live without the stress of debt for the rest of my life!

Originally Posted by sandstone

I do find it comical when people on these forums make it sound like living on 50-60k/year is total poverty. My family lives on 50k per year in an expensive city in a pretty expensive state, and we live a wonderful lifestyle with 2 cars, nice rented house, good quality food, eating out once in awhile, taking some fun roadtrips here and there, good quality clothes, overall a nice quality of life. I will have >300k of loans to repay in the end, and I don't see why I can't pay them of within five years. If I make 200k/year and after all expenses and taxes that becomes 140k/yr (I'm just guessing here), pay 70k/yr toward loans and have 70k/yr to live on, I'll be psyched! I feel like I'd be living large right there, and I'd be taking home more than the majority of people in this county and the world. Then after its payed off in five years I'll feel crazy wealthy living on 140/yr. Geez if people are buying mansions and fancy cars before paying off loans, no wonder it's an issue them. People make it sound like "living like a resident" is the worst doomsday situation in the world. I do wonder how many people on SDN have spent years working a crappy job for 30k/yr before going into med school. My past ten years of working crappy low paying jobs makes me very excited to have the opportunity to go to med school.

I personally believe the vast majority of doctors in this country have never held a full time job before med school. I don't even think the majority even worked part time during college, and maybe even 5% at the most know what it is like to live paycheck to paycheck.

Yet some of them will get ticked off when a patient doesn't a fill a Rx that is $50+/month.

If you make $140k/year after taxes, and you can't pay off your loan within a reasonable amount of time, you're an idiot and that is just the bottom line IMO. That salary is $11,666/month.

So, you can put $6k/month on the loan, while living off of more than $5k/month. This results in a loan of $250k being paid off in UNDER 3.5 YEARS.

If you have a working spouse who makes $30k/year after taxes, your total household income per month is $2500 + $11,666 = $14,166.

WTF, give me a break.

You could afford to put $8k on your loan, while living off of $6,166 PER MONTH, which is SEVERAL TIMES larger than your resident income.

In this case, if your loan is $300k, you would pay it off in 3.125 years, while living off of OVER $6k/month.

If you can't manage that, you're an imbecile.

Keep in mind that in my opinion, you would pay that off in 3 - 5 years, while having already put quite a bit away in a Roth IRA. So, you would sitting pretty long term.

Let's not forget.. it's easy to not spend money when you don't have any.

Originally Posted by Polynikes

I personally believe the vast majority of doctors in this country have never held a full time job before med school. I don't even think the majority even worked part time during college, and maybe even 5% at the most know what it is like to live paycheck to paycheck.

Yet some of them will get ticked off when a patient doesn't a fill a Rx that is $50+/month.

If you make $140k/year after taxes, and you can't pay off your loan within a reasonable amount of time, you're an idiot and that is just the bottom line IMO. That salary is $11,666/month.

So, you can put $6k/month on the loan, while living off of more than $5k/month. This results in a loan of $250k being paid off in UNDER 3.5 YEARS.

If you have a working spouse who makes $30k/year after taxes, your total household income per month is $2500 + $11,666 = $14,166.

WTF, give me a break.

You could afford to put $8k on your loan, while living off of $6,166 PER MONTH, which is SEVERAL TIMES larger than your resident income.

In this case, if your loan is $300k, you would pay it off in 3.125 years, while living off of OVER $6k/month.

If you can't manage that, you're an imbecile.

Keep in mind that in my opinion, you would pay that off in 3 - 5 years, while having already put quite a bit away in a Roth IRA. So, you would sitting pretty long term.

your general point is accurate, and i agree with you....... however your numbers are wrong.

$140k/year after taxes is a lot. retirement takes out a decent slice. disability, home, life, auto, umbrella, personal property, and malpractice insurance take out a bunch more. then, multiply everything by 0.5 if you have a wife.

i think the biggest problem is that once young docs start to earn a paycheck, it is hard to lay off the fancy cars, house, entertainment systems, wives, etc. if you continue to live within your means for the first few years after residency, you should be able to build up a war chaest and pay off the loans pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by SSdoc33

your general point is accurate, and i agree with you....... however your numbers are wrong.

$140k/year after taxes is a lot. retirement takes out a decent slice. disability, home, life, auto, umbrella, personal property, and malpractice insurance take out a bunch more. then, multiply everything by 0.5 if you have a wife.

i think the biggest problem is that once young docs start to earn a paycheck, it is hard to lay off the fancy cars, house, entertainment systems, wives, etc. if you continue to live within your means for the first few years after residency, you should be able to build up a war chaest and pay off the loans pretty quickly.

1. What is the 0.5 multiplier? How exactly do you get that? You are assuming that your wife is out buying purses and expensive boots? My wife works, and doesn't plan on quitting any time soon, so that makes no sense. You're assuming that every woman who is married to a doctor is forced to be a stay at home mom? I don't understand...

2. Yes, all of those items you listed are expensive, and they definitely add up, but if one has no car payments, a wife that works, NO CREDIT CARD DEBT, and lives within their means, those expenses are easily covered while still making large payments on the loan. Even if your wife doesn't work, those expenses are taken care of by an after taxes salary of $120k to $140k.

3. Retirement. You're going to stuff money away for retirement while you still have outstanding debt hanging over you? Your retirement money would most likely be better spent on your loan, especially if you put as much as you could towards a Roth during forbearance. If you're a married resident with a spouse that works, the money going into that Roth could be a nice little chunk.

Originally Posted by Polynikes

1. What is the 0.5 multiplier? How exactly do you get that? You are assuming that your wife is out buying purses and expensive boots? My wife works, and doesn't plan on quitting any time soon, so that makes no sense. You're assuming that every woman who is married to a doctor is forced to be a stay at home mom? I don't understand...

2. Yes, all of those items you listed are expensive, and they definitely add up, but if one has no car payments, a wife that works, NO CREDIT CARD DEBT, and lives within their means, those expenses are easily covered while still making large payments on the loan. Even if your wife doesn't work, those expenses are taken care of by an after taxes salary of $120k to $140k.

3. Retirement. You're going to stuff money away for retirement while you still have outstanding debt hanging over you? Your retirement money would most likely be better spent on your loan, especially if you put as much as you could towards a Roth during forbearance. If you're a married resident with a spouse that works, the money going into that Roth could be a nice little chunk.

My 0.5 multiplier means that everything have, just multiply by 0.5 and that's what you will have left after your wife gets thru with it. It was a poorly executed joke.

And yes. Definitely max to your 401k while you still have outstanding debt as long as your loans are not at a super high rate.

But we are arguing the same thing. These loans should be relatively easy to pay back as long as your name isn't mc hammer (well-executed joke)

Polynikes,

You are painting a vivid picture for me of life in your world.

Where doctors are handed from their rich mother's apron into medical school, pockets stuffed with cash and lollipops.

Where doctors are greedy fools with no money mangement skills.

Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder about your classmates, your attendings and your future profession.

Originally Posted by Jitter Bug

Polynikes,

You are painting a vivid picture for me of life in your world.

Where doctors are handed from their rich mother's apron into medical school, pockets stuffed with cash and lollipops.

Where doctors are greedy fools with no money mangement skills.

Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder about your classmates, your attendings and your future profession.

Totally

Originally Posted by Polynikes

Totally

perfect response (and I'm not being sarcastic).

Originally Posted by Polynikes

I personally believe the vast majority of doctors in this country have never held a full time job before med school. I don't even think the majority even worked part time during college, and maybe even 5% at the most know what it is like to live paycheck to paycheck.

Yet some of them will get ticked off when a patient doesn't a fill a Rx that is $50+/month.

If you make $140k/year after taxes, and you can't pay off your loan within a reasonable amount of time, you're an idiot and that is just the bottom line IMO. That salary is $11,666/month.

So, you can put $6k/month on the loan, while living off of more than $5k/month. This results in a loan of $250k being paid off in UNDER 3.5 YEARS.

If you have a working spouse who makes $30k/year after taxes, your total household income per month is $2500 + $11,666 = $14,166.

WTF, give me a break.

You could afford to put $8k on your loan, while living off of $6,166 PER MONTH, which is SEVERAL TIMES larger than your resident income.

In this case, if your loan is $300k, you would pay it off in 3.125 years, while living off of OVER $6k/month.

If you can't manage that, you're an imbecile.

Keep in mind that in my opinion, you would pay that off in 3 - 5 years, while having already put quite a bit away in a Roth IRA. So, you would sitting pretty long term.

I completely agree. I think a lot of people in medicine don't realize how good they have it. And as I said before, medicine as a profession generally allows you to earn more if you choose to work more. Many people in the corporate world are worked to the bone with no additional compensation.