Anyone applying to Cards this year 2005

freeMDnow said:

Hi,

I am an IM PGY2 resident applying to cards this year. I was wondering how many interviews people have at this time--I realize it is extremely competitive this year. I have 4 right now and wanted to compare notes. Please be truthful and do not inflate your numbers so that we all can benefit from this. Thanks.

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you're not likely to get much help here since Cards people are so competitive and feel that withholding information will help them in some mystical way. I have 8 interviews currently; i think it's unlikely that we'll receive more since most programs have extended invitations at this time. what makes you think this year is more competitive than any other?

...10 interviews. nothing for the past 3 weeks.

freeMDnow said:

...from what I heard what matters is how u interview rather than the number.

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I doubt that's true, unless you have awful acne/freeze under pressure.

Cardiology interviews tend to be about fit, both personality and research interest (mostly the latter). If you interviewed at only one program, you would run the risk of a poor match (ie being one of 40 people with heart failure research applying for a spot) and thus not matching. Conversely, if you did five years of research with the top dog at the one fellowship program you applied to, you'd be solid.

most people I talked to on the interview trail were interviewing at ~ 8 places.

freeMDnow said:

if u dont mind me asking, approx how many places did u applu to and what type of credentials do u have?

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applied to 12 programs.

have good/excellent credentials (PM me for details)

not trying to scare you, but cardiology is competitive. go to the mat now, use your contacts, make some calls, and best of luck.

P Diddy

Applicants this year from my program have between 2 and 10 interviews. Most applied to probably thirty programs (which is too few in my opinion). I think it may be tougher this year. The numbers are daunting (general figures: for six positions, 800 applicants, possibly as many as 60 interviews). It is an extremely stressful process. Good luck to all.

freeMDnow said:

Thanks for the response and congrats/good luck for next year.

The numbers you have quoted are more consistent of what I have also seen. Most people in my program have from 2-7? interviews, applied to an avg. of 20-30 programs. Most programs (on average) receive approx. 80-100 applications per spot! from what I have been told by programs. So I guess the people who have 8, 10, or a gazzillion interviews are the strongest of the pack. Good luck everyone!

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Do you guys have any advice for those of us that will be staring residency this July and hope to land a cardiology spot. Obviously things like where we will do our Gen IM training, Step I/II are already in the books. Has anything in particular stuck out to you guys as being more important than you thought before entering the fellowship apllication process? Also (and I know there are other threads about this) how would you guys rank the importance of LOR's/Training Institution for IM/StepI/II/III/research etc. I figure you all can give us a fresh perspective on the process. Thanks and good luck with the match.

My personal opinion regarding what is more important for getting cards fellowship interviews:

#1. Where you are trained...the reputation of your IM program counts a lot.
#2. Research, research and more research... especially you want get into academic fellowship programs.
#3. Chief resident experience...very helpful for getting into community programs.
#4. STRONG letters from well know cardiology faculty and PD...if you get even a lukewarm letter, you probably will be OUT of the top 10% who get invited...there are just too many good candidates for too few spots.

I agree with the above.

The most important elements are research and who wrote letters for you and what they say. These two elements usually go hand in hand. It helps very much if your letter writers make phone calls to PDs at other programs on your behalf (especially if they know the PDs).

Your medicine residency is also quite important.

Chief year can help for sure. At my program though, the vast majority of applicants who are succesful in getting spots do not do a chief year. This factor is highly variable. If you have the option of doing a chief year and feel that you would not be competitive enough without it, then go for it.

Board scores, grades in med school, other issues really dont count at all.

This is all advice for getting an interview. Once you have an interview, I really think it is a question of chemistry with the individual program. Programs interview varying numbers of applicants (I remember between 20 and 80 as the range).

Is there any advantage for someone applying to the same school where they are in residency?

What I am wondering is, if the goal is cards, would a person doing well in IM at state school residency be more likely to be able to do cards because they could continue there for fellowship, vice a harvard/hopkins IM resident who would face tons of outside competition for cards in that institution?

DCM said:

Is there any advantage for someone applying to the same school where they are in residency?

What I am wondering is, if the goal is cards, would a person doing well in IM at state school residency be more likely to be able to do cards because they could continue there for fellowship, vice a harvard/hopkins IM resident who would face tons of outside competition for cards in that institution?

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I think this is a fantastic question that I have been asking fellows from various specialties including cardiology recently. In cards, it seems that a harvard/hopkins IM resident can pretty much get into any decent cards programs (and many of the hopkins residents got spots at Cleveland Clinic), so in the situation you described, going to harvard/hopkins would seem much smarter. However, it is true, from what the fellows tell me, that it is easier to get into the cards fellowship at your school than a *comparable* one somewhere else. For example, at my school, 2 spots are available for the 9 internal candidates that are applying, while the 2 other spots are available for everyone else. Typically they interview 20 candidates from comparable programs for these other 2 spots. So there you have it (2/9 chance vs 2/20 chance).

Do others concur with this basic assessment?

B

I agree, it is easier to match at your 'home' program. And Bonobo, keep in mind that 2 spots may be reserved for internal candidates (your 2/9 analogy), the 20 that were interviewed for the other two spots were chosen out a field of >200 applications... so that's really an ~2/200 shot for a spot at an outside institution.

So, bottom-line is to do IM at a program with a cards fellowship. It increases your chances significantly. Advantages to this arrangement also include letters of recommendation (from persons who are known in the world of academic cardiology) and research opportunities.

This is great info, thanks.

Two places I interviewed told me that they prefer not to (read: don't) take their own IM residents as fellows. I think that this is rare, but be careful. Also beware IM programs that are succesful placing their grads into cards only when it is their home Cards fellowship. You want to see a balance, people staying at their home institution as well as going widely to other respected programs.

jdaasbo said:

Two places I interviewed told me that they prefer not to (read: don't) take their own IM residents as fellows. I think that this is rare, but be careful. Also beware IM programs that are succesful placing their grads into cards only when it is their home Cards fellowship. You want to see a balance, people staying at their home institution as well as going widely to other respected programs.

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Having finally gone through this process, there are a few points I'd like to reiterate/emphasize.

1. the cardiology fellowship process is about leverage. use whatever leverage you have to obtain the position of your choice. I think that's why people term the process 'political', since acceptance for fellowship has as much to do with who you know and how you present yourself as with how intelligent you are. at this point in the game, there are more intelligent and capable candidates than available positions. in that sense the cardiology match is like the neurosurgery match, with positions being offered and accepted in principle before the match takes place.

2. the leverage you have includes your personality/performance during residency, IM residency reputation, research experience and LOR/faculty relationships.

a) personality/performance really does matter. some people take this to heart and kiss ass indiscriminately, but in this case the after-school specials are right: be yourself, not someone else. fellowship directors aren't stupid, and while they may enjoy watching you dance, snivelling may paradoxically hurt your chances. if you are well respected as a resident at your program, this will help you obtain strong LOR and faculty support. also, you can never have too many people on your side, especially if you're trying to match at your own program. support from the nurses and IM residency administration may help.

b) IM residency reputation goes a long way. it can get you an interview over someone with similar credentials from a 'lesser ranked' school or put you on equal footing with someone with better research. once you've been invited for interview, this probably carries less weight. in addition, i can't emphasize enough the fact that statistically the best chance to match is at your own program. (ie 2 out of 9 vs 2 out of 400). find out how many spots are usually internally filled, and find out who in your (prospective) program wants to stay. some years, there may be an excess of candidates with stellar credentials that want to remain in their program; other years no one wants to stay. one could choose to defer application for a year to approve one's chances. I agree with the above point that applicants from the best IM programs match to Cardiology internally but also at outside well respected institutions. so, in general, to enhance your chances for acceptance go to the best university based program you can.

c) research experience is almost requisite, but you don't have to publish in Nature. if you do publish in Nature, you can probably pick your fellowship spot. Research also doesn't necessarily have to involve cardiology. a former fellowship director I spoke to mentioned that their program looked favorably upon any research done during residency as they realize there is little time then. case reports, review articles and abstracts count. that's why people emphasize getting research done early, even in medical school for those who know they want cardiology. PhDs have a leg up since they have extensive research experience.

d) LOR/faculty relationships matter the most. you could be from Podunkville Hospital and have done no research, but if the Podunkville director loves you and is nationally known he/she can get you a fellowship spot somewhere. even if the PD isn't nationally known, their support can help you get into your own program. faculty members serve as advocates who can fight for your admission into your home institution's fellowship or make calls to faculty they know at other programs to aid you in your quest; their endorsement can make a world of difference if they know someone at the programs where you interview.

3. the fellowship process requires more thought than residency application. since there are more candidates per position and thus (I think) more people who know what they want to do within cardiology, it doesn't fly to say 'well Aunt Sally was a cardiologist so I want to be one too'. I think this is good because the selective pressure forces us to think about what we want out of our career. have a good idea of what you want to within cardiology (general field and type of research) and what kind of work you see yourself doing in the future. you can of course change your mind, but your 'Vision of Cardiology', much like Mariah Carey's Vision of Love, will impact your life. the personal statement helps determine which programs select you for interview and your interview influences where you ultimately end up.

I'm pretty laid back (or so I've been told), but this process got to me. the fact that ~50% applicants match based on other's posts plays a large role in this. you'd think that having a Match in place would make the process less stressful, but most applicants in my program knew where they were matching before the 22nd, so do we really have a match in place. I feel extrememly lucky just to have matched, and at an outstanding program to boot.

good luck to you all. PM with questions. shouldn't we have our own Cardiology forum?

best,

P Diddy

I agree with most of what pdiddy has written. However, I would differ from the last post. It is great if you noticed that people going into your own program are the ones that genuinely liked Cardiology. However that is not the case everywhere. As has been said it is afterall a very political process and who gets the spot really depends on the end on how many people can lobby strongly for you.
I just went through the process and did match at a competitive university program and am glad for that. I interviewed at some of the big name places (Brigham, Duke, Stanford etc) and was almost shocked to see the lack of correlation between the quality of research accomplishments of the fellows and the great programs where they were fellows. At even most of these big name places you meet fellows that are going into private practice or some kind of pseudoacademic arrangement where they join a group and admit patients to the university hospital. If the faculty have years of experience in judging who is truly interested in the field (and not the money involved) then how come this is happening. Actually one of the program directors confessed to me during the interview that it is very hard for them to predict who will actually stay in academics. Infact I think the people who actually deserve the best spots donot get them unless they have a big political backing.
My advice will be to apply to as many programs as you can given the competitive nature of the process. Also if you do research make sure the BIG NAME at your place is aware of that and can recommend you (as that is likley to matter in the political game, not just the recommendation of a mid level attending).
At the most competitive big name places expect the process to be most unfair. These people go by your pedigree (just seems to be some kind of mental block in these folks) and will take a MGH resident who went to Harvard Medical School over you any day even if you have 5 Nature publications and he doesnot.
Lastly, I encourage all people who have matched to help out their juniors by posting threads. There is no point in hiding facts at an anonymous forum like this one. Pdiddy did a great job by posting his thread!

Wow, great thread. I've wanted to be a cardiologist for a long time. I'm still in undergrad but I didn't know it was so competetitive. I have the opportunity to do heart research and will do so.

Two Questions

1. Does being IM/Peds offer advantages over being just an IM resident when applying for adult cardiology spots?

2. If you don't have published research prior to starting your IM residency, are you more or less screwed because how will you get time to do research by the time you apply during your second year of residency?

Preface: I am an MS4 with significant interest in cards.

Answers to Questions:
1. Though peds is a nice touch...No.
2. Research is a must, and thus experience is absolutely necessary. I cannot say whether just experience is a enough, or you need a few publications so in my humble opinion the answer is ...Yes.

dukeblue01 said:

Preface: I am an MS4 with significant interest in cards.

Answers to Questions:
1. Though peds is a nice touch...No.
2. Research is a must, and thus experience is absolutely necessary. I cannot say whether just experience is a enough, or you need a few publications so in my humble opinion the answer is ...Yes.

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I understand that research is a must but do you need research completed before you start residency? How do all these residents suddenly do research during their residency?

I think that research is imperative, and I have heard from many of my recently graduated classmates and others that it is hard to fit research in during your intern year. I think that there is more time in the 2nd and 3rd years, but if you are trying to go straight from IM to Cards you apply at the beginning of your second year. Thus it must be hard to have published research if you did not do at least some of it in med school. It is not impossible, and you could do a chief year, or take a hospitalist year to delay and get more research/other experience. I do not know first hand like FreeMD and others, but it appears to me that Cards is very competitive and only looks like it will stay that way.

Research is difficult either way. The only time you can comfortably do research at your own pace is during the summer between your first and second year because it's difficult to fit research during MS1 and MS2 when you are studying for classes. Some will try to do research during 4th year but by that time you are applying to programs and interviewing so there is little time there as well. I'm considering cardiology and I might do a chief year or work as a hospitalist to get time to do quality research.

daelroy said:

Two Questions

1. Does being IM/Peds offer advantages over being just an IM resident when applying for adult cardiology spots?

2. If you don't have published research prior to starting your IM residency, are you more or less screwed because how will you get time to do research by the time you apply during your second year of residency?

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1. No, it probably is a disadvantage. if you look at the fellowship programs med-peds people go into, they're usually combined med-peds fellowships such as congenital heart disease in the case of cardiology. this may have changed since I applied for residency (I applied IM and med-peds for the 2002 match), so I would suggest contacting the med-peds programs you're interested in and asking what cardiology programs the graduates enter.

2. you are not screwed. ditto freeMDnow's response.

I completely agree. Going to a top tier IM program will automatically put you at great advantage. The reality is most IM programs do favor taking their own residents for card fellowship( at least 55/45 if not 60/40 inside/outside applicant, except maybe at CCF where it is 90/10 outside/inside applicant). A cardiology fellowship which ends up taking all from within usually means it only has local presence and not nationally recognized. The advantage at top tier IM program is for example, if you are at Columbia, even if you match only at your institution, you are still at Columbia. If you are at Cornell, chances are you will switch places and do cards at Columbia, and vice versa from Columbia to Cornell. At Columbia/Cornell, the worst you will probably end up is NYU(maybe Brown) which are still excellent match say if you come from regional state programs. Fact of the matter is Columbia/Cornell send residents to Penn/Texas heart/Emory/Brigham/Hopkins/UCSF for cards. Other programs in NYC like Sinai also sends residents to UCLA/UCSF for cards. Obviously, the key is reference letters. Big institution equals PD of national prominence for networking = excellent fellowship opportunities. If you browse through fellowship destinations for top tier IM programs you will always notice patterns of what other top tier programs they are sending their residents to. All of that amounts to networking.

freeMDnow said:

I also agree from what I have learned--essentially, there are advantages to both.

I think it would be advantageous to land a "big name" IM residency rather than stay at a "state" program because that really goes a long way and will ultimately land you more interviews overall. Also, keep in mind that you also have your own "internal" spots even at the "big name" program, so you have that advantage as well--and usually MORE spots as big programs. HOWEVER, the internal candidates are all very strong, and this works against you.

At the State program, the internal cadidates are weaker so you have less competition, but less overall interviews since you're not from a top-notch program.

Pick your poison.

I completely agree. Going to a top tier IM program will automatically put you at great advantage. The reality is most IM programs do favor taking their own residents for card fellowship( at least 55/45 if not 60/40 inside/outside applicant, except maybe at CCF where it is 90/10 outside/inside applicant). A cardiology fellowship which ends up taking all from within usually means it only has local presence and not nationally recognized. The advantage at top tier IM program is for example, if you are at Columbia, even if you match only at your institution, you are still at Columbia. If you are at Cornell, chances are you will switch places and do cards at Columbia, and vice versa from Columbia to Cornell. At Columbia/Cornell, the worst you will probably end up is NYU(maybe Brown) which are still excellent match say if you come from regional state programs. Fact of the matter is Columbia/Cornell send residents to Penn/Texas heart/Emory/Brigham/Hopkins/UCSF for cards. Other programs in NYC like Sinai also sends residents to UCLA/UCSF for cards. Obviously, the key is reference letters. Big institution equals PD of national prominence for networking = excellent fellowship opportunities. If you browse through fellowship destinations for top tier IM programs you will always notice patterns of what other top tier programs they are sending their residents to. All of that amounts to networking.



But I think you go for the *bling bling* if you can, pardon my french.

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Don't forget your own role in shaping your destiny, its not as though going to A top 10 program assures you of anything, and going to a lesser program doesn't exclude you as well. Brilliant people will be so anywhere.

DrNick2006 said:

Don't forget your own role in shaping your destiny, its not as though going to A top 10 program assures you of anything, and going to a lesser program doesn't exclude you as well. Brilliant people will be so anywhere.

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Dr. Nick,
you hit the nail on the head. I have been in practice as an internist for 6yrs. Which program you go to only helps if you want to do academic cards. In the real world, the guys cleaning house are the business astute ones , not the "I went to a top program docs". They don't teach you about the "real world" stuff in most , if not all programs. Almost any resident can apply themselves to research or publishing if they are pushed to , but the savoir faire , people skills and smart business skills required to succeed depends on the individual.

In residency/fellowship, you are sheltered from the annoying regulatory atmosphere of OSHA HIPPA , numerous health insurance contracts , city council rules and of course , my good legal eagles. Some docs have the knack for business , some don't. So, it depends what you want out of life. If you want to run your practice ( and it has it's benefits and risks) , go to a program that will give free reign to improve your skills and don't waste your time abusing docile rodents. I admire our colleagues in the academic arena, for without them we will not be where we are today.

Anyone applying this year?

Some of the first deadlines have passed. Anyone know when interviews start getting offered? Lots of program say "March".

Jon

I have heard from most of them that they will send interviews in Feb-March too. Still no rejection, no interview. A few of them have not downloaded the applications yet.
Good luck

.

Dear friends,

Programs have begun to send out interview invitations. I have gotten 2 the past week. Hope there're more to come . See ya'll on the interview trail.

Best wishes

lub-dub said:

Dear friends,

Programs have begun to send out interview invitations. I have gotten 2 the past week. Hope there're more to come . See ya'll on the interview trail.

Best wishes

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Hi
Congrats for early interviews! cud u plz lemme know from which state or city u got ur first 2 interviews?
good luck

lub-dub said:

Dear friends,

Programs have begun to send out interview invitations. I have gotten 2 the past week. Hope there're more to come . See ya'll on the interview trail.

Best wishes

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Doc Lub-Dub,

From which programs you got interview calls

From Duke and Baylor (Houston, TX)...No new offer this week yet!

I have gotten letters too. But they are all rejection letters. Dukes pretty good man. I guess you have a lot of research or articles to your name.

Has anyone heard anything from these programs:

East coast: MGH, B&W, Hopkins, Washington Hospital DC, Wash U (Barnes-Jewish)?

West coast: UCSF, UCLA, UCDavis, Stanford?

Cheers

I heard following programs made decisions

Duke
Layola Univ
University of Rochester
Newark Beth Israel
University of Arizona
Emory University
Northwestern University
Baylor College of Medicine
University of Florida , Jackson Ville
West Virginia University

if you know any more please post


MGH, BWH not made any decisions yet

a

a

Cleveland Clinic has also offered interviews

I also believe BU has sent an email out.

The yes's from:
UCSF
University of Rochester
University of Missouri-Kansas City

and...with the no's:
Duke
Pittsburgh
Mayo-Scottsdale

Many more to hear from, but here's hoping it's still early!

I appreciate the advice found earlier in the thread. Well-put, and, as far as I know so far, quite accurate.

Good Luck everyone!

cb

Oh, yeah, how many programs did everyone apply to?

How many programs will everyone interview at?

I have a question for those going through the process now. iam about the rank programs for residency and I am certain that I want to do Cardiology.

Among the programs that I am considering are a couple of "community" programs that are highly academic. Do you have any thoughts on these? Do they put me at a disadvantage?

Cedars-Sinai in LA - Full time UCLA Faculty (big names), lots of time for research, good cards placement outside (not so hot inside - 3 in last 5 years)

Scripps Clinic - Lots of internal placement and research, not so hot external placement in recent years. Some big name faculty in interventional cards.

I also have some straigh academics on my list: UTSW, Wash U, Baylor-Houston. but for personal reasons, I think I wanna be in LA, but not if it will screw me for cards in 3 years. Any thoughts/advice?

I enjoyed this thread. With an interest in Cardiology and along the same line of question as in previous post, what do you guys think of highly ranked IM Community programs with affiliation such as Henry Ford, Beaumont Hospital, Ceder-Sinai, etc in terms of looking to go into Cards later on? Thanks.