Salaries

Your username says it all. Typical.

FutureOrthoDoc said:

I know this has been asked before, but what are starting salaries for D.O?

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Physicians get paid differently depending on their specialty. It's not like McDonald's where everyone starts at $6.50. Are you inquiring about a certain field?

To get a vague idea look at the BLS web site. I think it is something like www.bls.gov

DO surgeons, anesthesiologists, radiologists, family practitioners? What specialty are you enquiring about? Here is a physician salary survey:

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

FutureOrthoDoc said:

I know this has been asked before, but what are starting salaries for D.O?

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Hell son don't worry about that. Physicians are get paid well for their years of sacrifice and hardwork. Open your own practice then you will make as much money as you feel like working for.

DO salaries are the same as MD salaries if that is what you mean.

FutureOrthoDoc said:

so nobody knows?

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D.O.s get paid the same as M.D.s, if that is what you were talking about. From the link posted above, orthopedic surgeons start at about $250,000 (after residency of course). You should be aware (and I really hope you are) that D.O. = Doctor of Osteopathy, and while some D.O.s are orthopedic surgeons, that is not what D.O. means.

nobody know what you are asking.

FutureOrthoDoc said:

so nobody knows?

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FutureOrthoDoc,
I had similar thoughts at first, but MD's and DO's both bill for the same services. And also DO's bill for OMT as opposed to MD's who don't. I hope this clears something for you.

- Bill

FutureOrthoDoc said:

Thanks for the info Bill. Next ? what is an OMT?

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WHOA there FutureOrthoDoc you better know what OMT is before you waltz into the pre-osteopathic forum. Just kidding, but you might want to do some research about osteopathy. OMT is osteopathic manipulative treatment and sometimes it is referred to as Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine, OMM. D.O. students take Osteopathic Principles and Practice class during med school. This class is the study and teaching of osteopathic history, philosophy, and manipulative treatment. Here’s a quick link that talks about OMT: http://www.spine-health.com/topics/conserv/ostvis/ostvis03.html

There is a lot more info out there about OMM, OMT, and OPP that you can check out.

FutureOrthoDoc said:

Ok, I know a D.O= doctor of osteopathy. I was curious about their starting salaries. I haven't seen numbers that prove they make the same as allopathic docs. It also appears that the schools fro D.O have lower standards, so I just thought the salaries may be lower.

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They get the same license (USMLE) as M.D.s

tacrum43 said:

They get the same license (USMLE) as M.D.s

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Of course, they have a choice to take the USMLE besides the COMPLEX.

The allopathic boards (USMLE) are only needed if D.O. choose to have MD residency's.

However, there really is no pay different if you have USMLE or NOT. As far as family practice and internal medicine goes. To get many surgical residency's you need USMLE, (especially cardiac).

tacrum43 said:

They get the same license (USMLE) as M.D.s

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Actually the don't get the same license! Under state licensing boards you are either: A MEDICAL PHYSICIAN AND/OR SURGEON (MD) or OSTEOPATHIC PHYSICIAN AND/OR SURGEON (DO). Even if a DO goes into an allopathic res program they are still a DO!

DOs can choose to take the USMLE, but all DO must take the COMLEX. Some allopathic residencies will not take the COMLEX, but through insurances and government it is all the same: physician!

FutureOrthoDoc said:

Ok, I know a D.O= doctor of osteopathy. I was curious about their starting salaries. I haven't seen numbers that prove they make the same as allopathic docs. It also appears that the schools fro D.O have lower standards, so I just thought the salaries may be lower.

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Don't worry, you'll make lots of money. You'll have that brand new sports car you've always wanted. You'll be able to impress plenty of people with your salary.

And the good news is, if the MD schools happen to see right through a douche bag like you, you can always slum it over to the DO side, because you'll make the same salary.

I agree with this dude, I hope you enjoyr sacrificing 8+ years of your life just to make a triple digit figure. Go to law school, less hassle and higher pay plus you get to manipulate and exploit people for a living now!

Fenrezz said:

Don't worry, you'll make lots of money. You'll have that brand new sports car you've always wanted. You'll be able to impress plenty of people with your salary.

And the good news is, if the MD schools happen to see right through a douche bag like you, you can always slum it over to the DO side, because you'll make the same salary.

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more than one peso. maybe.

An osteopath can use 1 or more of the follwing to treat a pathologic abnormality.

1. Medicine
2. Surgery/Procedures
3. OMM - a learned skill that takes much practice to become proficient. Granted some are naturally better than others. Some students hate it so much (probably >50% of my class) that it is obvious that they'll never use it.
4. Education/Counseling - may work for things like pre-hypertension or psych. Probably the most underutilized aspect of medicine b/c A) it doesn't reimburse/pay well, B) the fear of actually talking to your patient and C) it is a skill that even psychiatrists are not necessarily good at.

If you are employed by a group or HMO you make what you negotiate which will correlate with the going rate for that specialty in that area. Hence you will have a range of salaries within a given specialty. If you are self-employed i.e. own your own practice your salary is dependent on your business acumen, how much you decide to pay yourself, profiency at billing/coding, work hours, specialty, reimbursement rate for your geographical area, your fee schedule, payor mix (all cash, all HMO/PPO, or somewhere in b/t) and finally how you manipulate the above 4 ways to correct a pathological abnormality.

FutureOrthoDoc said:

Ok, I know a D.O= doctor of osteopathy. I was curious about their starting salaries. I haven't seen numbers that prove they make the same as allopathic docs. It also appears that the schools fro D.O have lower standards, so I just thought the salaries may be lower.

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DO schools dont have lower standards. Osteopaths are held to the same standards as allopathic students. We learn the same things in school (and DOs also learn Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy).

Some osteopathic schools may have lower applicant MCAT and GPA averages than some of the allopathic schools, but that does not equate to having lower standards. I can guarantee that Osteopathic schools teach everything (and then some) of what a practicing physician needs to know.

To all you pre-medical students reading this thread. Don't be scared that you will be viewed as a lesser physician in the healthcare setting if you choose to be an Osteopath. The DO vs. MD battle occurs mostly in the pre-medical rhealm. I am at the end of my first year and I absolutely love where I am and what I am learning.

FutureOrthoDoc, if you really want to know about Osteopathic Medicine, PM me and I will be happy to send you in the right direction. Rest assured, DOs make the same as MDs in a given speciality field.

Hi Fellow SDN Members,
I would not answer this guys Futureorthodoc's questions unless they are legitimate as he has been belittling the Osteopathic profession and DO's on other threads. Here is a post from him a few days back: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2636804#post2636804 Where he states he does not want to be a DO. Just wanted to give you some heads up on the poster.

As for Futureorthodoc's plans for orthopedics, you have a long way to go but maybe you will get into an international school. Let's hope so because we do not need you in the osteopathic world. Have a nice day!

Aaron Earles said:

DO schools dont have lower standards. Osteopaths are held to the same standards as allopathic students. We learn the same things in school (and DOs also learn Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy).

Some osteopathic schools may have lower applicant MCAT and GPA averages than some of the allopathic schools, but that does not equate to having lower standards. I can guarantee that Osteopathic schools teach everything (and then some) of what a practicing physician needs to know.

To all you pre-medical students reading this thread. Don't be scared that you will be viewed as a lesser physician in the healthcare setting if you choose to be an Osteopath. The DO vs. MD battle occurs mostly in the pre-medical rhealm. I am at the end of my first year and I absolutely love where I am and what I am learning.

FutureOrthoDoc, if you really want to know about Osteopathic Medicine, PM me and I will be happy to send you in the right direction. Rest assured, DOs make the same as MDs in a given speciality field.

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Sounds like you go to a very good school.

dcratamt said:

Sounds like you go to a very good school.

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YUP!

A few weeks ago I went to see my PCP (That sounds funny, but it was my Primary Care Physician!) to get my immunizations for school. Anyways, she asked many times: "Are you sure you want to go into medicine?". She told me that the field of medicine is not the same as a few years back and advised me to go into LAW SCHOOL and then REAL ESTATE (Yuck!) if I "Really wanted to make money".

She went on to brag about her brother who's like the best neurosurgeon in the Chicago area. Apparently when boxers get really beat up after a fight, they bring them to him...wherever he is. And how he is going to retire early (he's 49), cuz he used to make millions, and now he won't even get to the $500,000 ..and of that, he has to pay $262,000 for malpractice insurance. I dunno... but the difference looks pretty good to me

Is it me...or is it that some older docs are greedy? Is her concern really justified. I mean, we are still going to be making waaaay much more money than the average american! What's the problem!?

Karina said:

And how he is going to retire early (he's 49), cuz he used to make millions, and now he won't even get to the $500,000 ..and of that, he has to pay $262,000 for malpractice insurance. I dunno... but the difference looks pretty good to me

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You have some valid points, but it depends. If he's working in a hospital, they'll cover his malpractice insurance. On the other hand, if he's paying for it himself, then he would have a net income of $238,000. Considering that taxes would take away as much as 40%, this would leave him with $142,800. That's a not a lot for a neurosurgeon to be making.

From what I've seen on previous averages though, neurosurgeons tend to make between $600,000 - $750,000.

You also have to factor in that neurosurgery is extremely competitive to get into and takes many many years of hard dedication and manual labor (ie. residency). This is why they are compensated fairly well. That, and as you said, malpractice insurance can be relatively high.

With that said though, neurosurgery is out of the league for most medical students. There are easier ways to make money than medicine, and yes, real estate/investments are a good example. If you're just in it for the money, then it's time to start looking elsewhere. That's not to say that it should not be a factor in considering the profession though; it just shouldn't be the major one.

As a doctor, you will make more than the average american of course. You also have to keep in mind though that the "average" american typically tends to be uneducated. College graduates and other professionals are a self-selected group and do not represent the entire population; sadly though, even in the former case, a college degree will not earn you much more than $50,000 on average (ie. chemical engineering, etc.).

LVDoc said:

As a doctor, you will make more than the average american of course.

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Remember, the "average american" only works 40 hours week, too, hence, physicians should righteously be making more than average.

misyel said:

Remember, the "average american" only works 40 hours week, too, hence, physicians should righteously be making more than average.

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some work less than 40 hrs and make over 100grand

I think they just raised it to a few cents over minimum wage right?

dumb#*!

OneLove said:

I agree with this dude, I hope you enjoyr sacrificing 8+ years of your life just to make a triple digit figure. Go to law school, less hassle and higher pay plus you get to manipulate and exploit people for a living now!

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Law school, on average, pays nowhere near what med school does. Make no mistake about it. And yes, even those graduates of top 14 schools are generally burned-out or forced out of those 125k/year jobs in BigLaw and take a pay cut to escape the drudgery of sifting through case files endlessly for 60-65 hours per week.

The grass is always greener...only this time, it isn't.

Fed Meat said:

Law school, on average, pays nowhere near what med school does. Make no mistake about it. And yes, even those graduates of top 14 schools are generally burned-out or forced out of those 125k/year jobs in BigLaw and take a pay cut to escape the drudgery of sifting through case files endlessly for 60-65 hours per week.

The grass is always greener...only this time, it isn't.

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Well, the average is much lower but the average law student doesn't have the credentials of the average med student... But even at a slightly lower salary, if you are earning it sooner and with less debt (only 3 years of school and no residency), the time value of money can put you way ahead if you pursue law or financial professions. (I think Gawande makes this point in a recent New Yorker article posted elsewhere on this board). I don't deny that there is some burn out in law, but wonder if medicine has its fair share as well...

Law2Doc said:

Well, the average is much lower but the average law student doesn't have the credentials of the average med student... But even at a slightly lower salary, if you are earning it sooner and with less debt (only 3 years of school and no residency), the time value of money can put you way ahead if you pursue law or financial professions. (I think Gawande makes this point in a recent New Yorker article posted elsewhere on this board). I don't deny that there is some burn out in law, but wonder if medicine has its fair share as well...

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i plan on becoming an FP. i know MANY FPs and none have experienced burnout. i think the specialty you are in will determine that, likewise what law firm you work with. i think that the issue for timemoney earnings is off because i have yet to see anyone calculate in the EARNINGs you make during residency (yes you get paid during those years between 40-50000 a year) plus many of them allow moonlighting which will come close to approximating a lower doctors salary.

further, many of the lawyers must go work for a practice to make much money starting out, whereas a doctor can hang a shingle much easier in many places, especially since so many hosptials and towns are willing to GIVE them money to help them get going or to PAY OFF their student loans over time.

the big pay off in law is when you win a huge lawsuit. if you dont do that ever, then likely you will not get rich.

at any rate, money should not be the reason you do any field, becuase you are almost garanteed to hate it / get burned out. do it because you like doing it. that is brushed away as some sort of philisophical mumbojumbo, but "money cant buy you love" (sex =| love) ......

espbeliever said:

the big pay off in law is when you win a huge lawsuit. if you dont do that ever, then likely you will not get rich.

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Actually the most lucrative fields of law do not involve litigation or lawsuits. But other than that statement I agree with your post.

Fenrezz said:

Don't worry, you'll make lots of money. You'll have that brand new sports car you've always wanted. You'll be able to impress plenty of people with your salary.

And the good news is, if the MD schools happen to see right through a douche bag like you, you can always slum it over to the DO side, because you'll make the same salary.

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hahahah, you have no idea how long I just laughed at that . thank you for brightening up my day, because I have witnessed many douche bags just like this one. It's greedy bastards like this that have made malpractice lawsuits so common to doctors, very discouraging for those of us sacrificing our lives for the possibility just to be one someday down this loooooong ass road .

FutureOrthoDoc said:

I know this has been asked before, but what are starting salaries for D.O?

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Not sure about the rest of the country, but in CA they typically make minimum wage + tips!

OneLove said:

I agree with this dude, I hope you enjoyr sacrificing 8+ years of your life just to make a triple digit figure. Go to law school, less hassle and higher pay plus you get to manipulate and exploit people for a living now!

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Honest to God, all the OP asked was how much do DOs make, and here comes the flamers. Simple questions deserve simple answers, nothing less and nothing more. I think some of you posters need girlfriends in your life to relieve all this built in frustration.

Law2Doc said:

Well, the average is much lower but the average law student doesn't have the credentials of the average med student... But even at a slightly lower salary, if you are earning it sooner and with less debt (only 3 years of school and no residency), the time value of money can put you way ahead if you pursue law or financial professions. (I think Gawande makes this point in a recent New Yorker article posted elsewhere on this board). I don't deny that there is some burn out in law, but wonder if medicine has its fair share as well...

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this is absolutely true. between my friends in med school, those working in finance and consulting, and those pursuing md/phd's, we set up some progressions analysis. a few different fairly complex analyses looking at the cost/benefits of med school, law school, and md/phd route versus traditional route. most of us had the same majors and work experience up until the end of college, but our analysis proved that our friends that took banking or consulting jobs, making 60k a year, even if they never catch a bonus or move up in the corporate world, which is very unrealistic, after an IRA, 401k, and additional reasonable investing at a modest 3-5%, as well as early real-estate ventures, those guys will be ahead of us for a long time, even years after we have become doctors and we are making 250K/year with an initial debt load of 150K. because of the 8-10 year no-income headstart followed by debt years for med students, by the time we're 55, we'll just start to pull even. and by 65, we'll be considerably ahead.

but when you consider the more likely scenario of income progression for people in other professions, and consider that many of them will be making over 100k within 5-10 years of working, most likely even sooner than that, then you can really see that there isn't that profound a difference.

with medicine, its not so much about the money. its more about the combination of the money and the sure thing. the job security, and not having to worry about cashing in on a million dollar idea, or beating out 5 other 2nd year analysts for the 1 associate spot, etc.

FutureOrthoDoc said:

I know this has been asked before, but what are starting salaries for D.O?

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Average salary is bt $111,000-$250,000

Agent47...Congratulations!!! You are the most recent D-bag to drag up a forum thread that has been dead for nearly 2 years.

You would think that you would have something relevant to add but not even close. Good work

Agent47 said:

Average salary is bt $111,000-$250,000

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Maybe salaries have gone up, since it has been nearly 2 years since the OP asked this question.

Krazykritter said:

Agent47...Congratulations!!! You are the most recent D-bag to drag up a forum thread that has been dead for nearly 2 years.

You would think that you would have something relevant to add but not even close. Good work

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Good grief...kind of harsh!


Agent's a new member, probably just learning the ropes by providing some information to an easy question.

Krazykritter said:

Agent47...Congratulations!!! You are the most recent D-bag to drag up a forum thread that has been dead for nearly 2 years.

You would think that you would have something relevant to add but not even close. Good work

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LOL

Krazykritter said:

Agent47...Congratulations!!! You are the most recent D-bag to drag up a forum thread that has been dead for nearly 2 years.

You would think that you would have something relevant to add but not even close. Good work

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at least they knew how to use the search feature. agent (not sarcastic)

dpgc21 said:

Honest to God, all the OP asked was how much do DOs make, and here comes the flamers. Simple questions deserve simple answers, nothing less and nothing more. I think some of you posters need girlfriends in your life to relieve all this built in frustration.

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no.....no...no...no....That is what Hustler is for. Women add to the frustrations ( sometimes/ most of the time)

Agent47 said:

Average salary is bt $111,000-$250,000

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.

Honestly,

If you're worrying so much about how much money you're going to make and how people are going to think of you, you should probably reconsider a career in a place other then medicine. This field used to be genuine and it's because of selfish individuals who crave the money that people think medicine is a fallacy and full of fradulent people. In essence, it's due to selfishness that Doctors have to skirt around the system to actually go the extra mile and help their patients. Choosing to become a doctor should come first nature to you and so long as you have the ability to practice medicine in one way or another, that should be acceptable to you. I don't know a whole lot about the differing fields but it essentially sounds to me that a Doctor of Osteopathy and a Medical Doctor is the same thing. I'm sure you can specialize as a D.O. but not to the magnitude of a M.D. Correct me if I'm wrong but an M.D. can technically specialize in a wide variety of things. Regardless, you shouldn't worry about being either, they still essentially emulate the same quality of profession, that is sacrifice for compassion. You choose to become a doctor and rigorously study to ultimately help humanity persevere through malicious ailments sometimes we even put upon ourselves.

The reason I want to be a doctor is much like that of those who remain in the hospital and care less of a general hospital salary depending on where you go. I've lost a great deal of people in my life especially my mentors in my childhood and I don't think it's fair that we had such short warning. Although I wasn't brutally scarred emotionally, my family and friends were. They never recovered and I want to help those families prepare with the time they have left to help close ties with family members before they're taken so suddenly out of the world. Sure, realistically that's not always possible, but at least I can try.

LeadersWhoStand said:

Honestly,

sure you can specialize as a D.O. but not to the magnitude of a M.D. Correct me if I'm wrong

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Ok, you're wrong.

Also, congrats on using your first post to revive a 4 year old thread.

MLT2MT2DO said:

Ok, you're wrong.

Also, congrats on using your first post to revive a 4 year old thread.

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lmfao. the best part of the revival is the fact that they were making fun of someone else for a dead thread revival. epic.