This is how bad it's gotten

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

docB

Chronically painful
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
7,890
Reaction score
752
So this is how bad it has gotten. I was in the ER and heard a patient talking to her family. She said "You can always tell the bad doctors because they don't want to give you antibiotics for the flu. They get paid by the drug companies to keep you from getting the medicines you need."

This statement gives us a look into so many aspects of American medicine's ongoing decay. It shows that she doesn't trust doctors, doesn't understand how money flows in healthcare, doesn't trust drug companies, has no idea what proper care is and feels justified in getting angry when her incorrect and unreasonable expectations are not met.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Didn't you have the smallest desire to walk in (counting a wad of 20's). "I contacted Glaxo...they said you don't need antibiotics." :laugh:
 
Members don't see this ad :)
docB said:
So this is how bad it has gotten. I was in the ER and heard a patient talking to her family. She said "You can always tell the bad doctors because they don't want to give you antibiotics for the flu. They get paid by the drug companies to keep you from getting the medicines you need."

This statement gives us a look into so many aspects of American medicine's ongoing decay. It shows that she doesn't trust doctors, doesn't understand how money flows in healthcare, doesn't trust drug companies, has no idea what proper care is and feels justified in getting angry when her incorrect and unreasonable expectations are not met.


This sounds like a CS case
 
docB said:
It shows that she doesn't trust doctors, doesn't understand how money flows in healthcare, doesn't trust drug companies, has no idea what proper care is and feels justified in getting angry when her incorrect and unreasonable expectations are not met.

Playing devil's advocate for a sec, whose fault is it for not taking the time to explain to her what proper care is? ;)
 
KentW said:
Playing devil's advocate for a sec, whose fault is it for not taking the time to explain to her what proper care is? ;)
Her PMD explained why he didn't give her antibiotics. That just made her mad which is why she came to the ER to get them. My partner who saw her in the ED explained why he wasn't giving her antibiotics either. I'm sure she just bounced to another ED. By the way, she was so mad at the PMD who appropriately denied her antibiotics and explained why that she told my partner she was going to be switching doctors. This wasn't a problem with docs not explaining things. This was a situation of a patient feeling unreasonably entitled to something that wasn't indicated. I basically had the exact same interaction with a patient the other night over why I wasn't going to do an MRI to evaluate her chronic knee pain.
 
docB said:
I basically had the exact same interaction with a patient the other night over why I wasn't going to do an MRI to evaluate her chronic knee pain.

Are you implying that a MRI for chronic knee pain is not warranted or just not warranted in the ER?
 
docB said:
Her PMD explained why he didn't give her antibiotics. That just made her mad which is why she came to the ER to get them. My partner who saw her in the ED explained why he wasn't giving her antibiotics either. I'm sure she just bounced to another ED. By the way, she was so mad at the PMD who appropriately denied her antibiotics and explained why that she told my partner she was going to be switching doctors. This wasn't a problem with docs not explaining things. This was a situation of a patient feeling unreasonably entitled to something that wasn't indicated. I basically had the exact same interaction with a patient the other night over why I wasn't going to do an MRI to evaluate her chronic knee pain.
Wait til she gets her $400 emergency bill.

If your hospital is as aggressive as some, refusal to pay will lead to your wages being garnished.
 
docB said:
By the way, she was so mad at the PMD who appropriately denied her antibiotics and explained why that she told my partner she was going to be switching doctors.

I'm sure he'll miss her. :rolleyes:
 
DireWolf said:
Are you implying that a MRI for chronic knee pain is not warranted or just not warranted in the ER?

You see, the reason she's in the ED is someone has told her she needs one ands she doesn't want to or can't pay for one. It's never warranted in the ED and usually not warranted at all.
 
KentW said:
I'm sure he'll miss her. :rolleyes:

Eventually she'll quit or be discharged by all the doctors on panel (assuming she has insurance). Then she's ours forever. :love:
 
BKN said:
Eventually she'll quit or be discharged by all the doctors on panel (assuming she has insurance). Then she's ours forever. :love:



But if you continue to deny her demands maybe she'll stop coming to *your* ED.
 
BKN said:
You see, the reason she's in the ED is someone has told her she needs one ands she doesn't want to or can't pay for one. It's never warranted in the ED and usually not warranted at all.

I was just clearing up the context. A MRI is definitely warranted for chronic knee pain after a normal xray, just not in the ER.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
DrMom said:
But if you continue to deny her demands maybe she'll stop coming to *your* ED.


I love that attitude! That's exactly what I tell my colleagues who continue to feed indigent patients, give them T3s, and generally coddle them.

If they have a realy medical complaint, I will see them and treat them. If not, then they'd better get out of *my* ER.
 
DrMom said:
I don't believe that my daugher is misusing the emergency medical system, but if I find that she is she'll be grounded for a long time. ;)

I use that technique on frequent flyers, too! After I tell them "you're grounded" they are often so upset it drives them to drinking mouthwash or huffing carburetor fluid/toluene containing paint.
 
GeneralVeers said:
I love that attitude! That's exactly what I tell my colleagues who continue to feed indigent patients, give them T3s, and generally coddle them.

If they have a realy medical complaint, I will see them and treat them. If not, then they'd better get out of *my* ER.
The only thing is, a lot of nurse managers / med directors are reading too much into Press/Ganey, and think that coddling equals higher scores... which makes the CEO of the hospital happy.

Q
 
DrQuinn said:
The only thing is, a lot of nurse managers / med directors are reading too much into Press/Ganey, and think that coddling equals higher scores... which makes the CEO of the hospital happy.

Q
Did you guys hear that CMS is about to publish patient satisfaction surveys? Not only must we give our antibiotics at triage, but we must also do it with a smile.

I vote for this: put the antibiotics in a candy dispenser at the entrance to the ED. Place a quarter in, and get your antibiotic. They should come in a variety of colors.
 
DireWolf said:
Are you implying that a MRI for chronic knee pain is not warranted or just not warranted in the ER?


I think what SouthernDoc was eluding to was the fact that most knee problems can be diagnosed by a good physical exam. Thats why ortho docs have 19 tests for the same problem. Lachman's, Drawer's, Appley's, McMurray's, blah blah freaking blah. Why spend $2,000 on an MRI when the anterior drawer is so grossly positive and the knee joint is full of blood? That knee is getting opened and repaired in a week anyway. The aggressive ortho docs often don't feel the need to do an MRI when the diagnosis is so obvious. But yes, I think we all know that the MRI would be a commonly accepted tool for evaluating chronic knee pain, but there would never be an ED indication for a knee MRI that I can come up with.
 
southerndoc said:
Sorry corpsman, I never mentioned anything in my posts about MRI's or knee evaluations. That was someone else.

first DrB, then me. And yes Cman, I was suggesting that a physical exam and a history frequently obviates the need for an expensive image.
 
DrMom said:
But if you continue to deny her demands maybe she'll stop coming to *your* ED.
I got a junkie to stop coming to my ambulance station for "back pain" by giving him Narcan when he insisted that we give him "something for the pain". Granted it was for MY pain, but I complied with the request and treated him according to our altered mental status protocol. ;)
 
DrMom said:
I don't believe that my daugher is misusing the emergency medical system, but if I find that she is she'll be grounded for a long time. ;)

This reminds me of a truly trollish patient I had the other day. She was 21 and came in with her mother for her chronic pain. She at least went for the gusto. No silly vicodin seeking for her, no, she wants the hard stuff. Diluadid for her and lots of it.

After being told she wasn't getting it and she was welcome to pursue her treatment options elsewhere, she asked if I had a daughter because if I did, I would obvioulsy be treating her differently.

I told her that, yes, I do have a daughter. I just don't treat her every ache or mood fluctuation with narcotics.

She called me a piece of **** and wished a horrible life upon me and my daughter on her way out the door.

A nurse asked me why I was smiling as I walked out of her room. I told her "at least she's on her way out the door".

The sad thing was that her mother sat there the whole time watching this behavior and said nothing. If she had truly been my daughter, that type of crap would have stopped about 19 years ago.

Take care,
Jeff
 
Jeff698 said:
This reminds me of a truly trollish patient I had the other day. She was 21 and came in with her mother for her chronic pain. She at least went for the gusto. No silly vicodin seeking for her, no, she wants the hard stuff. Diluadid for her and lots of it.

After being told she wasn't getting it and she was welcome to pursue her treatment options elsewhere, she asked if I had a daughter because if I did, I would obvioulsy be treating her differently.

I told her that, yes, I do have a daughter. I just don't treat her every ache or mood fluctuation with narcotics.

She called me a piece of **** and wished a horrible life upon me and my daughter on her way out the door.

A nurse asked me why I was smiling as I walked out of her room. I told her "at least she's on her way out the door".

The sad thing was that her mother sat there the whole time watching this behavior and said nothing. If she had truly been my daughter, that type of crap would have stopped about 19 years ago.

Take care,
Jeff

You know why the Mom was there Jeff.....to share in the evening's catch!
 
BKN said:
You see, the reason she's in the ED is someone has told her she needs one ands she doesn't want to or can't pay for one. It's never warranted in the ED and usually not warranted at all.
BKN is exaclty right. These folks also come in sent by their PMDs because getting a test approved as an outpatient by the insurance company takes weeks. There are several problems. By policy I can't even get an "emergant" MRI unless it's to rule out spinal compression so they often don't get the testing they want. Even if they don't get their MRI or if they do get their CT or US or whatever the insurer denies the visit because the whole thing was non-emergent and should have been done as an outpatient. They are well aware of the end run around their red tape through the ED and they won't pay for it.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
I got a junkie to stop coming to my ambulance station for "back pain" by giving him Narcan when he insisted that we give him "something for the pain". Granted it was for MY pain, but I complied with the request and treated him according to our altered mental status protocol. ;)
There is something extremely troubling to me about this kind of treatment. First, it borders on sadistic, and I hope this is just a tall tale invented for amusement instead of something that actually happened. If somebody is a "junkie" it does not necessarily mean that they are without the back pain. In fact, perhaps they became a junkie BECAUSE of the back pain. By giving this pt. narcan, not only are you treating him entirely incorrectly for his complaint, but you are preventing him from getting relief from pain meds for a little while.

Yes, chronic drug seekers are annoying - but given the choice between

A) denying pain meds to 10 people so that the 9 drug seekers didn't get recreational drugs, and 1 person in true pain suffered as a result

B) Giving pain meds to 10 people, 9 of whom were just seekers, and one of whom was in real pain.

I would choose B. In either case I would certainly not give narcan. Really disgusting way of treating people. I wouldn't recommend telling this story on your interviews to medical school - just doesn't come across as being a strong patient advocate.
 
I had a patient this week who came in for nausea. His wife---a real horror---was screaming at everyone in sight. She chased a PA from the room saying, "You aren't a doctor. Get me a doctor!" She told my attending to check her husband for myasthenia gravis and multiple sclerosis and a host of other diseases. The attending called the primary care physician and turfed the patient upstairs saying, "I shan't return to that room."
 
There was a 21 year old guy who came in with no medical complaint. When I asked him why he was there, he stated he need a prescription for Viagra. I asked why he thought he needed it, and he said: "When I'm drunk I can't get it up to have sex with my girlfriend".

I told him to stop drinking and sent him home.
 
No, it actually happened.

Trust me, this guy claims he had back pain so severe he couldn't walk but he walked into the ambulance station after riding up to the door on his bicycle. He had stopped by the 911 office at the sheriff's department 8 blocks away to make sure we had an ambulance available. Does that sound like someone who is in pain? Also the fact that he repeatedly admitted starting to use narcotics because he simply liked the way they made him feel doesn't support your stance. He was such a frequent flyer that we were ordered by our medical director to avoid transport at all cost "unless he has a piece of plastic down his throat. Understood? Treat him as a drug OD if he presents again, that should fix the problem of him wasting resources....in fact if you don't, I'll have your a--". I actually had a medical control order received immediately prior to giving the Narcan, so it wasn't just me being a cowboy.

Actually it is being an advocate (albeit not the warm and fuzzy type you are hoping for).....I didn't continue to feed his habit like you're suggesting. In less clear cut cases, then yeah, treat as if the problem is there, but otherwise why force the taxpayers of our county to fund this dirtbag's habit? That is not to mention taking an ALS unit out of service for this case....I'm unapologetic about putting the welfare of others in the community ahead of this junkie. It's nothing more than social triage.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
No, it actually happened.

Trust me, this guy claims he had back pain so severe he couldn't walk but he walked into the ambulance station after riding up to the door on his bicycle. He had stopped by the 911 office at the sheriff's department 8 blocks away to make sure we had an ambulance available. Does that sound like someone who is in pain? Also the fact that he repeatedly admitted starting to use narcotics because he simply liked the way they made him feel doesn't support your stance. He was such a frequent flyer that we were ordered by our medical director to avoid transport at all cost "unless he has a piece of plastic down his throat. Understood? Treat him as a drug OD if he presents again, that should fix the problem of him wasting resources....in fact if you don't, I'll have your a--". I actually had a medical control order received immediately prior to giving the Narcan, so it wasn't just me being a cowboy.

Actually it is being an advocate (albeit not the warm and fuzzy type you are hoping for).....I didn't continue to feed his habit like you're suggesting. In less clear cut cases, then yeah, treat as if the problem is there, but otherwise why force the taxpayers of our county to fund this dirtbag's habit? That is not to mention taking an ALS unit out of service for this case....I'm unapologetic about putting the welfare of others in the community ahead of this junkie. It's nothing more than social triage.
I could understand and support (in the circumstance you describe) not administering pain medicine to this patient. What I am sickened by is the administration of the narcan. Did the patient consent to this? Somehow I doubt it. Did you tell the patient what you were administering when you pushed the narcan? I do not support, nor will I ever support "punitive" medicine. When you start thinking that hurting patients intentionally to "teach them a lesson," is OK, then it is time to move on to another profession. Referring to the patient as a "dirtbag" and using phrases like "social triage" make me extremely uncomfortable. If you are this jaded and haven't even started medical school - what the heck kind of physician will you be?
 
I'll be the first and step up in defense of Floppy regarding the pain issue. My personal beliefs regarding pain are based only on 1) treating lots of people in FM who suffer chronic pain, and 2) being someone that has some degree of chronic pain every day of my life.

I'll explain: Not quite a decade ago I injured my back during a military exercise and literally thought I could never possibly feel pain that bad again in my life. The accident led me to feel like 220 volts of electrons had been injected with a 60cc Toomey syringe right into my lumbar spine. I could not feel my left leg at all on the medial side from the mid thigh distally, and could not even lift it at the hip more than 30%. I had the misfortune of going to an ED where the doc had seen one too many back pain patients and he did the old "lumbar series", plus oral Robaxin 750mg and Vicodin 5/500 one each. That took the pain from a 19 on a scale of 1-10 down to a 12!! Of course the L-spine series was normal because we all know how common any sort of bony abnormality is acutely in that region.

But like all lumbar back pains (98%), within a month I was almost normal again save the sensory loss. My strength was 90% back as well. I had an epidural steroid around that time and only 1-2 times per year since then do I have an issue with my back. But the last couple of years I have had some acute episodes from doing something stupid, where I literally have to be in the fetal position on my side on the couch. My latest MRI shows paracentral herniation at 3 levels with thecal sac compression. I live through this and still manage to get plenty of cardio, swim, everything except running. But on occassion, like I mentioned, I have a terrible time. A few times I contemplated calling an ambulance because I only had my cell phone and couldn't get off the couch to take a whizz. That time I just pissed in my gatoraid bottle and waited for my wife to get home. :laugh:

But having been through this, and sometimes having a bad week, I can testify that it is one of the most humiliating and uncomfortable situations to be in when you are a knowledgable provider in pain. You always wonder if someone thinks you are "seeking" and its sort of the same feeling you get when you walk out of Target and the "alarm" goes off because some cashier forgot to take the tag off your sales item. You laugh but I carry my MRI result folded up in my wallet because I worry I could be in an accident and the ED doctor NOT understand or believe I have some serious underlying pathology. I'm not about to let some arrogant prick tell me I am not hurting if I am....and well past feeling guilty about having pain!

Since being a patient myself in these situations, I look very differently at patients who come in complaining of severe pain. I really am bothered by young interns and residents who acquire that "people asking for pain meds are always abusers" attitude. Trust me, when you are hurting that bad and you have had the problem before, you know what works and does not work. I personally believe that you are obligated to treat acute pain acutely and aggressively unless you have a real freaking good reason not to. As long as you cover your a$$, and do a very thorough exam, you should be able to determine who is really in pain and treat them appropriately. Don't place yourself on some pedistal and assume that everyone for whom Toradol does not work is drug seeking. I have been known to load a reliable patient with 75mg Demerol and 10mg Valium each IM when they are having such a back spasm they cannot bend, breath easily, or move without intense pain. A smart provider can almost always tell the real thing from the unreal. And you owe it to your patients and yourself to learn how to treat these people appropriately. The provider who says "I don't prescribe or give narcs", and the provider who learns from the get go that the ED is "not the place for pain patients" is in the end a bad ED doc. The ED is the end of the line for some people who suffer pain, and it is our obligation to treat them.

All I am saying is don't develop bad habits before you really take the time to learn who is jerking your chain. Its better to give an actor pain meds if documented appropriately than to deny one single person pain meds because you are a cynic. And for God's sake don't always freak out when you see someone coming into the ED for acute pain on top of their chronic pain for which they already take 3-4 Darvacet per day. Don't assume because it would put most of us on the floor unconscious that its not someone's normal day to take 20mg of Oxy BID.

Pain is way misunderstood from the ED standpoint and I applaud the geriatric doctors and oncologists who have finally got onboard to help keep people from suffering. Most of these good PCP's and specialists can help keep pain patients out of the ED if they just treated it appropriately in their offices. Its truly an urban legend that docs get busted for treating pain anywhere near appropriately. All the guys I know who got burned for narcs were running cough syrup mills or allowing someone to use their signed pad too leniantly...like a midlevel or a nurse refilling over the phone. Examine, document, and treat accordingly. Sure you will overtreat a few patients here and there, but your pain radar will never be fully developed if you are a skeptic already the day you leave residency.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
No, it actually happened.

Trust me, this guy claims he had back pain so severe he couldn't walk but he walked into the ambulance station after riding up to the door on his bicycle. He had stopped by the 911 office at the sheriff's department 8 blocks away to make sure we had an ambulance available. Does that sound like someone who is in pain? Also the fact that he repeatedly admitted starting to use narcotics because he simply liked the way they made him feel doesn't support your stance. He was such a frequent flyer that we were ordered by our medical director to avoid transport at all cost "unless he has a piece of plastic down his throat. Understood? Treat him as a drug OD if he presents again, that should fix the problem of him wasting resources....in fact if you don't, I'll have your a--". I actually had a medical control order received immediately prior to giving the Narcan, so it wasn't just me being a cowboy.

Actually it is being an advocate (albeit not the warm and fuzzy type you are hoping for).....I didn't continue to feed his habit like you're suggesting. In less clear cut cases, then yeah, treat as if the problem is there, but otherwise why force the taxpayers of our county to fund this dirtbag's habit? That is not to mention taking an ALS unit out of service for this case....I'm unapologetic about putting the welfare of others in the community ahead of this junkie. It's nothing more than social triage.

I remember doing some stuff like this to patients but it is not something I am proud of. We used to hate seekers on the rig, but you get a lot of problem patients on the rig and it is your responsiblity to treat them humanely. If the guy rode his bike into your station from 8 blocks away, he was not altered enough to need Narcan and we all know it. You should have questioned the order, but likely you painted the picture for the doc leading to that order because its the punitive way you wanted to treat the patient.

I remember my senior medic on a rig once had me hold down a patient so he could nasally intubate her to "protect her airway". She had been faking a seizure and he was going to "teach her a lesson". I hated myself for that call for many days and I wish I had said something, but I was just a kid and this guy was a paraGod in my eyes.

Avoid becoming jaded before you even learn the art of medicine, otherwise you will fail to learn much.
 
Corpsman-

I believe in everything you say, except I refuse to give Demerol. I'll give Dilaudid and Valium in the butt but that's about it.

I herniated one of my discs as an intern lifting weights. Very very painful... radiated down, lost some extension of my leg great toe, etc. Limped for a couple weeks. Eventually teh pain disappeared after about 3-4 weeks. The worst my pain ever reached was a 5-6 out of ten (on a REAL scale). Not ever a fetal position, gatorade peeing situation you were in, but uncomfortable to live with. Took only Motrin, which relieved some of the pain.

At this point in my career, 3 months and 19 days away from graduating, I am relatively liberal with my pain meds, especially when the history is of a "I just turned wrong and now I'm in a lot of pain" whcih is ultimately how most people end up acutely hurting their back. Minor MVA rear end collisions or a history fo chronic back pain that is now a 10/10, but you stand on your tippy toes to change the TV channel usually does not get a significant amount of opiate medications.

Q
 
DrQuinn said:
Corpsman-

I believe in everything you say, except I refuse to give Demerol. I'll give Dilaudid and Valium in the butt but that's about it.


I agree with that assessment. I never give Demerol in the ER, if someone's in that much pain they probably need to be admitted for pain control.

Additionally if I have to wake someone up to ask how there pain is doing, they probably won't get any narcotics from me.
 
For what it's worth, I tend to be pretty liberal with pain meds. More so than most of my colleagues. I believe in the "better to over treat 10 than undertreat 1" philosophy as described above. But I also understand how easy it is to become jaded and skeptical of every patient who rolls through the ED complaining of pain. I know I've most definitley been scammed a time or two, but I that doesn't really bother me. It is better than sending somebody home to suffer with undertreated pain IMHO.

Regarding abuse of the ED...

I think I broke a personal record today. I treated a family of five this morning in the ED. Apparently they checked in yesterday evening but the wait was too long so they took off. They appropriately assumed that Sunday morning would be the best time to be seen. Three colds, one leg pain for a year, and one work excuse for last Wednesday through Saturday. They all had medicaid and all had PCP's assigned to them. The PCP had not been consulted. No OTC meds had been tried at home. It was obvious they had no respect for the services we provide or the resources utilized on this Sunday morning family outing.

My disposition included OTC meds times four and no work excuses.
 
Jeff698 said:
This reminds me of a truly trollish patient I had the other day. She was 21 and came in with her mother for her chronic pain. She at least went for the gusto. No silly vicodin seeking for her, no, she wants the hard stuff. Diluadid for her and lots of it.

This also reminds me of a chronic backpain patient who has had worsening back pain for 9 months and his physician has now refused to refill his oxycontin prescriptions.

He presented to the ED at 3 am because the pain was now intolerable.

It's odd how a rectal exam changed the workup of this patient. A rectal exam looking for tone (because he said he had urinary incontinence and bilateral leg tingling) found a markedly enlarged prostate.

Plain films of his L-spine showed an osteolytic lesion.

Be careful of the malingerers. They sometimes have real conditions. This man had metastatic prostate cancer, and the letter I received thanking me for taking him seriously reminded me how I almost kicked this guy out of the ER the minute I heard him say his physician would no longer supply prescriptions for narcs. I'm glad I actually listened to him.
 
DrQuinn said:
I believe in everything you say, except I refuse to give Demerol. I'll give Dilaudid and Valium in the butt but that's about it.

My hospital does not even stock Demerol. It eliminates the seekers coming to the ED for its euphoric effect. The fact that we do not even stock Demerol eliminates any possibility of a practitioner prescribing it.
 
edinOH said:
My disposition included OTC meds times four and no work excuses.

See, I'll give anyone a work excuse, because it's money out of their pockets. I've had young guys with hand and arm injuries that have been repaired decline the work excuse, because they need the money.

Either way, it's no skin off my nose.

Even so, DocB's OP made me laugh today, because there was a patient that was saying that big pharma was making profits off anti-seizure meds that didn't work, and she was sounding like a huge conspiracy theorist - and even SHE started laughing when I told her this.
 
This was an instance of "I didn't feel too well last week and missed work. Can you give me an excuse?"

Uh, no. Anything else?

I'm not a big fan of the retroactive work excuse. Not in the least. This is the same thing as writing abx for every one who asks for them. It just encourages abuse of the ED. If you decide you don't want to go to work one day or are too drunk/hung over to make it in, the last thing we need is to tell them that all they have to do is show up to the ED and get a work excuse. Maybe I'm naive, but I feel that if I sign my name to something I legitimize it and it will most likely carry some weight with an employer. Otherwise they wouldn't be asking for it.

If you see me in the ED and you are sick or injured, even mildly so, and would like a day off, no problem. Sometimes you just need a day at home to get better. (Most of the people I see actually need something written from the doc to keep their job or not lose pay).
 
Do you guys ever time your work excuses? Like someone is there for stupid crap (the sniffles) and asks for a work excuse? I've been known to time them for the exact time they were triaged to the time they were discharged, able to return to work immediately.
 
edinOH said:
This was an instance of "I didn't feel too well last week and missed work. Can you give me an excuse?"

Uh, no. Anything else?

I'm not a big fan of the retroactive work excuse. Not in the least. This is the same thing as writing abx for every one who asks for them. It just encourages abuse of the ED. If you decide you don't want to go to work one day or are too drunk/hung over to make it in, the last thing we need is to tell them that all they have to do is show up to the ED and get a work excuse. Maybe I'm naive, but I feel that if I sign my name to something I legitimize it and it will most likely carry some weight with an employer. Otherwise they wouldn't be asking for it.

If you see me in the ED and you are sick or injured, even mildly so, and would like a day off, no problem. Sometimes you just need a day at home to get better. (Most of the people I see actually need something written from the doc to keep their job or not lose pay).

I should have clarified - I don't ever give retroactive notes - I tell the people I just can't do it (which I can't).
 
docB said:
"bad doctors ... don't want to give you antibiotics for the flu."

I guess I am a "bad" doctor. But in some sub-cultures, doesn't "bad" mean "good" (or am I dating myself here)?

:cool:
 
Back in the day, Michael's "Bad" meant bad-ass, now we probably know that he was probably being a bad boy all along. That song was a cry for help all along...
 
southerndoc said:
Do you guys ever time your work excuses? Like someone is there for stupid crap (the sniffles) and asks for a work excuse? I've been known to time them for the exact time they were triaged to the time they were discharged, able to return to work immediately.

Nope, I don't. But I will only write for two days maximum. I refer them back to their PCP if further excuse is needed. Why? Because most short term disability policies don't kick in until three days are missed. so two days is money out of their pocket. If the pain/condition warrants, them a PCP can f/u and write for further (or they can and do return to the ED for a "recheck"). If not, then at least I am not fostering workingman's compensation abuse.

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Nope, I don't. But I will only write for two days maximum. I refer them back to their PCP if further excuse is needed. Why? Because most short term disability policies don't kick in until three days are missed. so two days is money out of their pocket. If the pain/condition warrants, them a PCP can f/u and write for further (or they can and do return to the ED for a "recheck"). If not, then at least I am not fostering workingman's compensation abuse.

- H
The best thing I ever got in the mail at work was someone's disability claim. I didn't even remember seeing the patient. I loved it... I, an emergency physician, would be certifying someone as disabled and needing government benefits. Not going to happen! I tossed the paper in the shred bin.
 
southerndoc said:
The best thing I ever got in the mail at work was someone's disability claim. I didn't even remember seeing the patient. I loved it... I, an emergency physician, would be certifying someone as disabled and needing government benefits. Not going to happen! I tossed the paper in the shred bin.

I had a guy come in with some sort of temporary disability paperwork in hand looking for backpay. He missed 2 weeks of work for what he called a stomach flu. He came in a week after he "recovered". He had never been admitted to a hospital or even seen by a doctor for this stomach flu but wanted to get paid for work missed due to it. He wanted me to sign it for him to get paid. When I told him I wouldn't sign it, he said he would just find a doctor who would.
Also had one who wanted permanent disability(paperwork in hand) for chronic toe pain(probably gout). I told him about the paraplegic in the next room who worked doing landscape.
 
macdaddy23 said:
I had a guy come in with some sort of temporary disability paperwork in hand looking for backpay. He missed 2 weeks of work for what he called a stomach flu. He came in a week after he "recovered". He had never been admitted to a hospital or even seen by a doctor for this stomach flu but wanted to get paid for work missed due to it. He wanted me to sign it for him to get paid. When I told him I wouldn't sign it, he said he would just find a doctor who would.
Also had one who wanted permanent disability(paperwork in hand) for chronic toe pain(probably gout). I told him about the paraplegic in the next room who worked doing landscape.


In family medicine we get that crap all day long. I hate the FMLA (family medical leave act) paperwork. But what I hate more are the jerks who want handicap parking permits when they don't need them, and the jerks who want you to "write a letter" to justify why they need a $3,000 electronic scooter just because they weigh 650 pounds. But my absolute favorite is when they ask for something ultra stupid...I usually just break out my script pad and write for the "stupid item". I remember some old crazy guy asking me to fill out this real in depth form (literally 13 pages) from his employer to get him a rolling stool because he didn't want to walk 4 feet to the desk behind him to file papers. He had no physical problems other than HTN.

I simply took out a script pad and wrote

One Rolling Stool, as directed.

no refills.

He looked stunned as I handed it to him, but I wasn't about to spend half an hour on such BS. Another beautiful reason to be leaving that profession!!
 
Top