Online Pre Med lab courses

I'd try my best to stay away from online classes, and definately stay away if it shows on your transcript if it says "online". Regardless of how good it is, the perception that it is inferior to traditional classes may hurt you. Especially if it is a pre-med course.

Most applicants, including most non-trads have taken their pre-med requirements in standard classroom courses, so in regards to comparing one student to another, that may also put you in a bad place. There are a few threads about online classes that you might want to search for.

It is understandable that online classes provide more flexibility, however you don't want to handicap yourself either.

I took A&P online with an online lab (A CD ROM program to do the labs, actually pretty cool but also pathetic). Online did not show up on my transcript either. I A&P isn't a prereq, so I don't know about other prereqs but I would guess it's possible.

Most med schools will take online classes for course credit. But MANY will not accept online courses (lab or otherwise) for the core BCPM classes.

Adcoms are pretty savy as to which courses are online and which are not as well, by the way. I met with an advisor and one of the courses I'd taken, which is not advertised as online, she spotted as such. Beware.

Online LAB courses?! That is the end! I have enough difficulty accepting the idea of online courses for lecture- or reading-based subject matter. I cannot conceive of an online lab course having anywhere near the educational value of a real-live classroom setting. I guess we all do what we have to, but...do you really HAVE to go this route?

Best,
NYM

I found an online BioChem class...with lab if I remember correctly.

MJB said:

I found an online BioChem class...with lab if I remember correctly.

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How the heck does that even work??? Do-it-at-home gel electrophoresis??? Do you have to buy your own micropipettes??? I could see doing some lectures on line, but lab by its very nature is supposed to a class where you learn by doing experiments, well, IN A LAB!!!!

Don't know...I didn't say i was taking it...just that I saw it. I'll have to check.

I haven't gotten a whole lot out of my 6+hours of lab work in Organic this semester...that's for sure.
I know you like Chem. Lab work and research and all, but it's a necessary evil to me!


My fault, it doesn't look like Lab is included...

http://faculty.une.edu/com/courses/bionut/distbio/distbiohome.html

But they do offer an online Org class w/lab...

http://distance.une.edu/organic/

Hey guys,

I took an online lab for my online A&P class (not a med school prereq by the way). It was an interactive CD-ROM program. The graphics were actually quite excellent. It was lots of things you'd do in a normal lab: electrophoresis, titrations, disserctions, etc. You would set up the experiment on the screen and actually do carry out the experiment on screen. You would actually move the test tubes with your mouse and pour them in to the appropriate beakers, set up the electrophoresis and do the trials, etc. You'd then do a pretty normal lab writeup with the difficult theoretical questions, etc.

I never really got anything out of real labs. Not to say that I think online labs are better, but I think there was some benefit to being able to do unlimited trials and being more free to experiment with different things. I never was able to do this given the time constraints of the real labs.

QofQuimica said:

How the heck does that even work??? Do-it-at-home gel electrophoresis??? Do you have to buy your own micropipettes??? I could see doing some lectures on line, but lab by its very nature is supposed to a class where you learn by doing experiments, well, IN A LAB!!!!

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Maybe they send you a kit or something..lol. However I don't know how one would get the reagents. I can't just go to Safeway and ask for BSA.

Dr Trek 1 said:

Hey guys,

I took an online lab for my online A&P class (not a med school prereq by the way). It was an interactive CD-ROM program. The graphics were actually quite excellent. It was lots of things you'd do in a normal lab: electrophoresis, titrations, disserctions, etc. You would set up the experiment on the screen and actually do carry out the experiment on screen. You would actually move the test tubes with your mouse and pour them in to the appropriate beakers, set up the electrophoresis and do the trials, etc. You'd then do a pretty normal lab writeup with the difficult theoretical questions, etc.

I never really got anything out of real labs. Not to say that I think online labs are better, but I think there was some benefit to being able to do unlimited trials and being more free to experiment with different things. I never was able to do this given the time constraints of the real labs.

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Interesting. I guess I could see how that would work. I'll bet that is some interesting software.

I would even go so far as to say it would be more interesting and educational than most of the microscale crap I've done in Orgo lab that didn't work half the time...

If we can train pilots with flight simulators, I'm guessing we can simulate a chemical reaction using today's technology. I'd be interested in seeing how they do it.

MJB said:

Interesting. I guess I could see how that would work. I'll bet that is some interesting software.

I would even go so far as to say it would be more interesting and educational than most of the microscale crap I've done in Orgo lab that didn't work half the time...

If we can train pilots with flight simulators, I'm guessing we can simulate a chemical reaction using today's technology. I'd be interested in seeing how they do it.

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I can see the software complementing real labs but never replacing them. I did a lot of work for the US Army in regards to computer simulation of various things from combat to medical training, and it is no replacement for the real thing. For one thing, using a micropipet still requires hands-on training to use, , rather than some fancy moves with a mouse and keyboard. However at the level of say first quarter/semester biology, the software may be adequate. But for upper division biochemistry, I think not However I am looking forward to see what kind of new visual aids which software can offer in the coming days. The is definately a place for them, but how significant, we'll have to see.

I guess what I'm wondering is why it's deemed so necessary to know HOW to do these things unless your life's goal is to do research or be a lab rat?

I can't think of many times in my 8 years in the Pharma Industry that I NEEDED to know lab technique...because I chose not to work in the lab.

Now, I can see the need for live Anatomy labs...I wouldn't want a surgeon cutting on me that had never cut on anything before, for instance.

Labs have always been fairly difficult for me unless they had to do with A or P (and especially chem labs) because I found them incredibly boring. Funny thing is, I'm a hands on learner for the most part, and love "doing work" like that...

MJB said:

I guess what I'm wondering is why it's deemed so necessary to know HOW to do these things unless your life's goal is to do research or be a lab rat?

I can't think of many times in my 8 years in the Pharma Industry that I NEEDED to know lab technique...because I chose not to work in the lab.

Now, I can see the need for live Anatomy labs...I wouldn't want a surgeon cutting on me that had never cut on anything before, for instance.

Labs have always been fairly difficult for me unless they had to do with A or P (and especially chem labs) because I found them incredibly boring. Funny thing is, I'm a hands on learner for the most part, and love "doing work" like that...

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Yea I agree, there's definately a place and time for them. If i recall there was some movement towards (if not already) having med students learn anatomy by computer, but those that want to do surgery can take the "elective" cadaver based anatomy course.

To tell you the truth, I was a biochem major back in the day, and I don't recall how to do all the gels, columns, etc. I remember their purpose but in terms of the procedures...no way. But like you, I prefer the hands on, and the reason why I still remember the general concepts was because I actually, physically did it. Nothing like tactile feedback

I think part of my "hatred" for labs is based in how ridiculous I feel it is to have 2 three hour Organic labs/week.

I've spent no less than 10 hours or so a week on lab exercises or lab busy work...valuable time i could have spent actually studying organic chemistry reactions!

MJB said:

Don't know...I didn't say i was taking it...just that I saw it. I'll have to check.

I haven't gotten a whole lot out of my 6+hours of lab work in Organic this semester...that's for sure.
I know you like Chem. Lab work and research and all, but it's a necessary evil to me!


My fault, it doesn't look like Lab is included...

http://faculty.une.edu/com/courses/bionut/distbio/distbiohome.html

But they do offer an online Org class w/lab...

http://distance.une.edu/organic/

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I took a look; it's virtual. I assume it works like Dr. Trek explained. The only problem is that your grade might also be virtual.

Ok, all joking aside, I don't have a problem with nonmajors doing something like this. I think your arguments make sense, and I'd rather not dissect a cadaver myself (no chance that I'm going to go into surgery) when I can learn anatomy just as well from prosections or computers. But I would advise you against doing it only because I can tell you from personal experience how much adcoms don't like students with unusual transcripts. I got plenty of grief for not having graded pre-reqs, and I *had* taken real labs.

I love discussing things like this with you Q....

In my world, you can't learn anatomy without actually doing it...and chemistry is an afterthought...and you seem to be the total opposite!

Not planning on taking any more online courses....Med. Terminology online was enough.

Now, if you can somehow telepathically make me an expert on the reactions of alcohols by 11am CST today, i'd really appreciate it.

For the pre-reqs, I could see if you were taking them to fulfill an education requirement and took them on-line.

However, we are aspiring medical students. I think it would be prudent to take the labs in person to get the most out of them, especially A&P. I think of this class as training for the real thing. Computer programs are nice, but when you actually look for the structures on a cadaver, they're not as nice and neat, and often hard to find. It helps that much more by being there.

cs300m said:

Does anyone have any experience with the online pre med lab courses at ccconline.org ? The schedule flexibility of the online courses is why I am looking. As far as can tell they should satisfy any premed requirements.

Thanks

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I haven't taken any of the labs thru ccc, but I have taken several courses, and am taking several more thru them this summer/fall/spring. The online distinction does not show up on the transcript at all so the adcoms won't have any idea that it was from ccconline. What they might notice is your taking it thru a community college if you choose a community college as your home school, but the only place that the distinction between online and offline shows up is in the registration code, not the transcript.

I say go for it. What you do is apply and register with a home school (and I think a couple 4-year schools are part of ccc), your transcript comes from the home school, but the class itself is through ccc. All of the courses that I have taken through the online systems in Colorado (both ccc and community colleges own online systems) have been completely excellent. They are totally on par with the classes I take at my 4 year school.

Online courses here in Colorado are not easy, but they are definitely doable so long as you stay organized. Good luck!

I hated lab work as well. But stay away from the online versions-- they will not be as highly regarded. As non-trads we have enough to explain without adding things like this.

Nobody is going to know it's an online version in this case tho so why should he/she stay away from them if it works better for him/her than a brick and mortar lab?

The only place that the designation of online comes up, in this case - ccconline - is that when you register for classes at your home school, say Bio 204, the registration code for the section will be Bio 204-C11. But the only thing that shows up on your transcript is that it's Bio 204 and you received whatever grade from whichever school you chose as your home school (there's like 15 of them in this consortium). Also you have to choose a home school that is associated with the course you plan on taking thru ccconline.

Of course this isn't always the case, so for those thinking about online courses in general double check how the course will be designated on the transcript first. But with ccconline it will not be an issue in the least because the only person who will ever know that you took an online section of the class rather than an on-campus version will be you and your instructor.

QofQuimica said:

I took a look; it's virtual. I assume it works like Dr. Trek explained. The only problem is that your grade might also be virtual.

Ok, all joking aside, I don't have a problem with nonmajors doing something like this. I think your arguments make sense, and I'd rather not dissect a cadaver myself (no chance that I'm going to go into surgery) when I can learn anatomy just as well from prosections or computers. But I would advise you against doing it only because I can tell you from personal experience how much adcoms don't like students with unusual transcripts. I got plenty of grief for not having graded pre-reqs, and I *had* taken real labs.

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Your opinion is extremely prejudiced, elitist, and dated. There is a growing body of educational research about distance learning science courses (including those for majors) substantiating the efficacy of on-line technologies, simple and affordable at home lab experiments, and other methods enabling individuals who cannot attend a conventional classroom or lab to attain their educational goals. Moreover, in many cases the data reveal that students learning through virtual and a variety of other distance methods outperform their counterparts in traditional settings.

It seems ironic that the medical school admissions establishment is so opposed to on-line labs and other such innovative pegagogical appraoches while many of the best medical schools are investing million of dollars in simulation technologies ("standardized" patients, virtual clinical skills software, etc.)!

NY Musicologist said:

Online LAB courses?! That is the end! I have enough difficulty accepting the idea of online courses for lecture- or reading-based subject matter. I cannot conceive of an online lab course having anywhere near the educational value of a real-live classroom setting. I guess we all do what we have to, but...do you really HAVE to go this route?

Best,
NYM

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Wow, I am going to do all my Organic Chem courses and labs online. WOW, no test tubes or beakers!! Great no periodic tables....just online true and false open book tests for Organic!! WOOOOWEEE!!! This is just great. I wonder if I can take an ONLINE MCAT test that will count and have it OPEN BOOK??? WOW!!!!! Thanks for giving me a laugh this morning, now let me go get a napkin for the coffee I just knocked over from laughing.....ALOHA FROM HAWAII!!!!

FutureDoctorJ said:

Wow, I am going to do all my Organic Chem courses and labs online. WOW, no test tubes or beakers!! Great no periodic tables....just online true and false open book tests for Organic!! WOOOOWEEE!!! This is just great. I wonder if I can take an ONLINE MCAT test that will count and have it OPEN BOOK??? WOW!!!!! Thanks for giving me a laugh this morning, now let me go get a napkin for the coffee I just knocked over from laughing.....ALOHA FROM HAWAII!!!!

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Another ignorant post. One only hopes that this forum will one day become more tolerant and progressive. Whatever the root cause of your obsession will cookbook classroom labs and conventional learning, your mockery is out of place. I would remind you that perhaps 30 years ago if not more recently still, "nontraditional" students would have met such skepticism and derision upon applying to medical school with community college courses, or at a given age, or from some other line of work, etc.

If online labs and courses from accredited colleges and universities meet your real life needs in meeting the pre-med requirements, I encourage anyone out there to defy the "purists" bench scientsts like QofQuimica and ignoramuses like FutureDoctor (sad, very sad...) and proceed to learn the material. At then end of the day, your MCAT score will speak as loudly as theirs.

Moreover, you will actually become a truly independent learner in the process.

Onward and upward.

LastSamurai said:

Another ignorant post. One only hopes that this forum will one day become more tolerant and progressive. Whatever the root cause of your obsession will cookbook classroom labs and conventional learning, your mockery is out of place. I would remind you that perhaps 30 years ago if not more recently still, "nontraditional" students would have met such skepticism and derision upon applying to medical school with community college courses, or at a given age, or from some other line of work, etc.

If online labs and courses from accredited colleges and universities meet your real life needs in meeting the pre-med requirements, I encourage anyone out there to defy the "purists" bench scientsts like QofQuimica and ignoramuses like FutureDoctor (sad, very sad...) and proceed to learn the material. At then end of the day, your MCAT score will speak as loudly as theirs.

Moreover, you will actually become a truly independent learner in the process.

Onward and upward.

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While I get your point, and speaking as neither a purist nor a particularly sciencey person, I have to say that it would be impossible to adequately duplicate the lab experience some of us had via an online course. Some of the chemicals used are biohazards you wouldn't want to use at home without proper ventillation hoods, and others are subcomponents of substances such that if you tried to order them, you would generate some interest by the DEA. Virtual labs don't work, because much of lab is actually the doing, seeing how sometimes you don't get the desired results and then trying over, or to explain why it didn't work, inadvertently creating human error, etc. We all know when we get to lab what SHOULD happen -- and that really is never the point of lab (at least not in something like organic). The importance is not seeing that if you mix X+Y you get Z, but often explaining why you didn't get Z, keeping adequate lab notes, learning both what should happen and what actually did. There was a ton of learning how to use various apparatus, learning how to work under hoods, learning how to run gels, titrate things, dispose of things -- all of which you have to have the opportunity to handle and to screw up and have to start from scratch to get the actual learning experience. Some things are suited to the virtual world, others not. Lab falls squarely in the not category -- you can give a view of the experience, but you cannot give the experience.

At least not with current computer technology. Perhaps when we get to the point of seamless virtual environments with those gloves and helmets they use in certain video arcades, then it can be approximated. Even then it will be decades before it is perfect, but maybe you can get to the "good enough" level. But a normal PC computer most of us have at home can't give you the same experience. So it's still reasonable that places insist on the in person experience.

vtucci said:

I hated lab work as well. But stay away from the online versions-- they will not be as highly regarded. As non-trads we have enough to explain without adding things like this.

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You know, I realized I just hated chemistry lab. I wound up enjoying biology and physics lab, but chemistry lab was the devil. I actually stopped being a chemistry major just because I hated lab so much -- I saw that as a sign that being a chemist wasn't for me.

I agree, though -- online labs probably don't adequately duplicate the real lab experience, and I'm sure adcoms would hate them. It's iffy enough to take non lab courses online.

Law2Doc said:

While I get your point, and speaking as neither a purist nor a particularly sciencey person, I have to say that it would be impossible to adequately duplicate the lab experience some of us had via an online course. Some of the chemicals used are biohazards you wouldn't want to use at home without proper ventillation hoods, and others are subcomponents of substances such that if you tried to order them, you would generate some interest by the DEA. Virtual labs don't work, because much of lab is actually the doing, seeing how sometimes you don't get the desired results and then trying over, or to explain why it didn't work, inadvertently creating human error, etc. We all know when we get to lab what SHOULD happen -- and that really is never the point of lab (at least not in something like organic). The importance is not seeing that if you mix X+Y you get Z, but often explaining why you didn't get Z, keeping adequate lab notes, learning both what should happen and what actually did. There was a ton of learning how to use various apparatus, learning how to work under hoods, learning how to run gels, titrate things, dispose of things -- all of which you have to have the opportunity to handle and to screw up and have to start from scratch to get the actual learning experience. Some things are suited to the virtual world, others not. Lab falls squarely in the not category -- you can give a view of the experience, but you cannot give the experience.

At least not with current computer technology. Perhaps when we get to the point of seamless virtual environments with those gloves and helmets they use in certain video arcades, then it can be approximated. Even then it will be decades before it is perfect, but maybe you can get to the "good enough" level. But a normal PC computer most of us have at home can't give you the same experience. So it's still reasonable that places insist on the in person experience.

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I appreciate your thoughtful response but respectfully disagree with your premise. You refer to the "lab experience some of us had" and assume that it's the best and only lab experience.

I too have taken conventional labs at various institutions and, yes, while one learns to tinker with some of the apparatuses one is also rushing through the experiments and doing little more than cookbook exercises and writing down the recipes in the lab books. As an educator myself, there is little of intellectual value transmitted in such an environment. Let's not romanticize the lab experience into some transcendent rite of intellectual awakening, which for most students it is not.

Virtual labs may not "replicate" the standard experience but in many ways they exceed it, at least as pedagogical tools.

And, contrary to your assertion, the technology is already available. Virtual ChemLabs, developed by a real chemistry professor at BYU who understands the many and great intellectual shortcomings of the "beloved" classroom lab, is one award-winning program that is now increasingly widely used for both general and organic chemistry (I know, horror of horrors to you dogmatic purists).

At the end of the day, all I am saying is that many roads lead to Rome and that individuals whose coursework, including the labs, is taken through alternative means are just as entitled and qualified, all else being equal, to seek admission into medical school as anyone else in this supposedly "nontraditional" forum.

It is, alas, disturbing to witness the degree of dogmatism and indoctrination ("that's the way I learned it so there can't possibly be another way...") expressed herein.

LastSamurai said:

It is, alas, disturbing to witness the degree of dogmatism and indoctrination ("that's the way I learned it so there can't possibly be another way...") expressed herein.

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You probably are going to find some frustration in medical education then -- it is steeped in tradition. A few schools are going virtual in terms of cadavers, but that is a matter of inability to acquire an adequate supply more than thinking it is preferable. Schools that can get them still do --it's considered the gold standard approach. Various animal labs have largely been phased out in favor of computerized stuff due to current animal ethics mores, but you will hear many profs bemoaning the loss of it as a teaching tool, for demonstrating the effects of certain drugs, replicating certain obstructions, etc. They are making great strides in dummies which reproduce various ailments, but you will find that nothing you learn is going to be as valuable as when you actually try it in the field. You will be indoctrinated and come around.

This is truly a field where you need to get your hands dirty, not learn from a computer screen. Might as well start with the basic science labs. They can try to equal the experiences but can never actually duplicate it.

LastSamurai said:

Virtual labs may not "replicate" the standard experience but in many ways they exceed it, at least as pedagogical tools.

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I think the reason lab is separated out from lecture in most of these courses is precisely because the hands on experience style of learning is the more important goal than the pedagogical approach. That you learn that A+B=C is the important part of the lecture course. That you actually see what happens when you are in the lab, and that maybe C doesn't happen, and try and figure out why, and learn the scientific method, is the function of that lab phase. Different courses, different goals. The pedagogal learning isn't meant to flow equally from both. You can disagree, but currently most adcoms don't.

Law2Doc said:

You probably are going to find some frustration in medical education then -- it is steeped in tradition.

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Law2Doc: There's a difference between tradition in the best sense and mere convention. For example, medicine used to steeped in an ancient humanistic tradition but sadly much of that has disppeared today between business pressures, salary aspirations, and government regulation.

Now, convention is quite another thing and I don't quite put pre-med labs into something as sacred as Tradition.

Medical school education is rapidly changing -- from the "traditional" (by your definition) large lecture halls to small group tutorials. Medical schools are also investing tens of million of dollars on average on all sorts of virtual, simulation, and related technologies that would have been frowned upon a decade ago.

So I neither buy nor concede your monopoly on what is traditional in the best sense of the word.

And, yes, I have no illusions on the prejudices of medical school admissions committees. If that makes me a foolhardy pioneer, we shall see. I'll be sure to post my success or failure. Like I've said, the MCAT score will speak as loudly for someone whose taken online labs as for someone whose taken the conventional classes.

That being said, it is ironic that in this nontraditional forum would-be applicants are so conformist and adopt a more Catholic than the Pope attitude in order to please admissions committees.

What would an admission committe have a said not that long ago about a lawyer deciding mid-career to study medicine? Not very traditional, certainly...

LastSamurai said:

Like I've said, the MCAT score will speak as loudly for someone whose taken online labs as for someone whose taken the conventional classes.

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The MCAT is meaningless if you haven't taken the prereqs. Lots of prereqs are not on the MCAT. (English, Math, in some places Biochem). But they still are required. Lab is another example. You can do fine on the MCAT from chemistry lecture but if you don't have the right lab you don't get in.

Law2Doc said:

The MCAT is meaningless if you haven't taken the prereqs. Lots of prereqs are not on the MCAT. (English, Math, in some places Biochem). But they still are required. Lab is another example. You can do fine on the MCAT from chemistry lecture but if you don't have the right lab you don't get in.

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You're so biased against online and alternative labs that you assume someone who takes such courses has not actually taken a lab. I am not saying that a high MCAT with out meeting lab requirements suffices; I am saying that online/distance learning/alternative labs are sufficient and will become increasingly common in the years to come in spite of the estasblishment's prejudices.

A lab is a lab and most transcripts don't mention the distinction between on site and distance courses any longer.

Again, for people who cannot leave a job or for any other reason cannot take a conventional course then good online/distance alternatives exist and will likely only grow in number and quality in the future.

You have no right and no basis to pass judgment on virtual labs and distance learning.

LastSamurai said:

You're so biased against online and alternative labs that you assume someone who takes such courses has not actually taken a lab. I am not saying that a high MCAT with out meeting lab requirements suffices; I am saying that online/distance learning/alternative labs are sufficient and will become increasingly common in the years to come in spite of the estasblishment's prejudices.

A lab is a lab and most transcripts don't mention the distinction between on site and distance courses any longer.

Again, for people who cannot leave a job or for any other reason cannot take a conventional course then good online/distance alternatives exist and will likely only grow in number and quality in the future.

You have no right and no basis to pass judgment on virtual labs and distance learning.

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I don't care if it's online/distance or not and am not biased or passing judgement on that concept, per se -- what I am saying is I would have the same problem if someone tried to offer something local and in person that was substantially different than the lab everyone else generally has to take, because you are not duplicating a lot of what is important about a lab. You are suggesting that so long as you get the requisite info out of it (ie a good MCAT), it is adequate. I am saying that it is the road itself, the doing, not the destination that is substantially all the value in a lab (as opposed to a lecture where your suggestion holds more water). So unless you are getting chemicals and apparatus set up in your home and working along with the computer screen, you simply can't take that same road virtually. Doesn't mean I have a problem with the online concept for things where the info, not the actual "doing" is what's important. Just that this aint one of them.

FWIW, calling people and their opinions biased, prejudiced, ignorant etc. as you have done in prior posts, is actually always the worst way to convince people - it usually pushes them in the other direction. Take it from a former mouthpiece.

LastSamurai said:

Your opinion is extremely prejudiced, elitist, and dated. There is a growing body of educational research about distance learning science courses (including those for majors) substantiating the efficacy of on-line technologies, simple and affordable at home lab experiments, and other methods enabling individuals who cannot attend a conventional classroom or lab to attain their educational goals. Moreover, in many cases the data reveal that students learning through virtual and a variety of other distance methods outperform their counterparts in traditional settings.

It seems ironic that the medical school admissions establishment is so opposed to on-line labs and other such innovative pegagogical appraoches while many of the best medical schools are investing million of dollars in simulation technologies ("standardized" patients, virtual clinical skills software, etc.)!

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I'm going to try to get my point across while hopefully being less rude to you than you were to me. The thing is, LS, I have way more experience with applying to medical school with a nontradititional academic record (no grades, GPA, or credits) and a nearly perfect MCAT score (43S) than I could have ever wished for. It sucked, big-time. My goal in writing that post was to save others from going through some of the same unnecessary hardships, not to judge the value of online learning per se. What you need to understand is, when it comes to applying to medical school, it doesn't actually matter how well prepared you are if you don't have the right credentials. Basically, if an adcom wants you to jump through a specific hoop and you haven't jumped through it, you probably won't get accepted, no matter how qualified you are. But please, don't take my word for it. Do your online labs, apply, and come back to let me know how wrong I am when the med schools all come knocking down your off-the-beaten-path door. My friend, I will seriously be the first one in line to congratulate you for doing what I could not, and beating the pants off the crusty, traditional, prejudicial, elitist, and dated medical school application process.

Law2Doc said:

FWIW, calling people and their opinions biased, prejudiced, ignorant etc. as you have done in prior posts, is actually always the worst way to convince people - it usually pushes them in the other direction. Take it from a former mouthpiece.

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I wasn't aware you were able to read my mind, Counselor.

QofQuimica said:

I'm going to try to get my point across while hopefully being less rude to you than you were to me. The thing is, LS, I have way more experience with applying to medical school with a nontradititional academic record (no grades, GPA, or credits) and a nearly perfect MCAT score (43S) than I could have ever wished for. It sucked, big-time. My goal in writing that post was to save others from going through some of the same unnecessary hardships, not to judge the value of online learning per se. What you need to understand is, when it comes to applying to medical school, it doesn't actually matter how well prepared you are if you don't have the right credentials. Basically, if an adcom wants you to jump through a specific hoop and you haven't jumped through it, you probably won't get accepted, no matter how qualified you are. But please, don't take my word for it. Do your online labs, apply, and come back to let me know how wrong I am when the med schools all come knocking down your off-the-beaten-path door. My friend, I will seriously be the first one in line to congratulate you for doing what I could not, and beating the pants off the crusty, traditional, prejudicial, elitist, and dated medical school application process.


I wasn't aware you were able to read my mind, Counselor.

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I stand by my words and chose them carefully. When someone outright mocks and ridicules the mere idea of an online lab -- e.g., read the reference to "virtual grades" --that in my mind is an act of ignorance. I am not trying to reduce this discussion to ad hominem attacks but it is evident that you are both predisposed, i.e., biased, against the idea and/or substance of alternative distance learning methods for laboratory coursework. So be it.

I appreciate your desire to prevent those of us who have no other viable options from undertaking the quixotic path of online labs.

However, to attempt to undermine the quality of a person's education because it has been undertaken through heterodox means is less than becoming a forum that fancies itself "nontraditional." Distance learning in general is democratizing education and creating opportunities for countless people from all walks of life who have no other feasible alternatives, including aspiring medical students. There is always resistance to change; it is just both ironic and painful to encounter that mindset on this forum.

I take your words, QofQuimica, as the throwing of the gauntlet. Very well, nothing will give me more satisfaction than to post of my successes on this forum. Untill then, I will follow the only path open to me in spite of the naysayers.

Last Samurai

LastSamurai said:

is less than becoming a forum that fancies itself "nontraditional."

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Just FYI, folks on here are "nontraditional" because that is how med schools characterize folks who don't go directly from high school to college to med school (the "traditional" route). It doesn't suggest that we are supposed to be progressive.

Good luck on your endeavors.

LastSamurai said:

I stand by my words and chose them carefully. When someone outright mocks and ridicules the mere idea of an online lab -- e.g., read the reference to "virtual grades" --that in my mind is an act of ignorance. I am not trying to reduce this discussion to ad hominem attacks but it is evident that you are both predisposed, i.e., biased, against the idea and/or substance of alternative distance learning methods for laboratory coursework. So be it.

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She made it clear she was joking.

However, to attempt to undermine the quality of a person's education because it has been undertaken through heterodox means is less than becoming a forum that fancies itself "nontraditional." Distance learning in general is democratizing education and creating opportunities for countless people from all walks of life who have no other feasible alternatives, including aspiring medical students. There is always resistance to change; it is just both ironic and painful to encounter that mindset on this forum.

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She never undermined anything, she expressed what she believes is the opinion of Adcoms in general, based on her experience.

LastSamurai said:

I stand by my words and chose them carefully. When someone outright mocks and ridicules the mere idea of an online lab -- e.g., read the reference to "virtual grades" --that in my mind is an act of ignorance.

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LS, it was a joke. I was making a JOKE when I said that. That's why I included the afterward. So am I to understand that you went and revived a four-month-old thread to read me the riot act for a joke I made with another user (MJB)??? I'm just too incredulous to even know what to say to that.

LastSamurai said:

I am not trying to reduce this discussion to ad hominem attacks but it is evident that you are both predisposed, i.e., biased, against the idea and/or substance of alternative distance learning methods for laboratory coursework. So be it.

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Well, but you did reduce it to an ad hominem attack, and you still don't seem to realize that I was teasing another poster with whom I am friendly when I made that comment!

LastSamurai said:

I appreciate your desire to prevent those of us who have no other viable options from undertaking the quixotic path of online labs.

However, to attempt to undermine the quality of a person's education because it has been undertaken through heterodox means is less than becoming a forum that fancies itself "nontraditional." Distance learning in general is democratizing education and creating opportunities for countless people from all walks of life who have no other feasible alternatives, including aspiring medical students. There is always resistance to change; it is just both ironic and painful to encounter that mindset on this forum.

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I don't think it's ironic at all. We're med students. The desire to be different begins to be beaten out of you after a while.

Last Samurai said:

I take your words, QofQuimica, as the throwing of the gauntlet. Very well, nothing will give me more satisfaction than to post of my successes on this forum. Untill then, I will follow the only path open to me in spite of the naysayers.

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I honestly do wish you the best. Just, from now on, would you not take my months-old jokes with other people as personal attacks against you??? Sheesh!

LastSamurai said:

Another ignorant post. One only hopes that this forum will one day become more tolerant and progressive. Whatever the root cause of your obsession will cookbook classroom labs and conventional learning, your mockery is out of place. I would remind you that perhaps 30 years ago if not more recently still, "nontraditional" students would have met such skepticism and derision upon applying to medical school with community college courses, or at a given age, or from some other line of work, etc.

If online labs and courses from accredited colleges and universities meet your real life needs in meeting the pre-med requirements, I encourage anyone out there to defy the "purists" bench scientsts like QofQuimica and ignoramuses like FutureDoctor (sad, very sad...) and proceed to learn the material. At then end of the day, your MCAT score will speak as loudly as theirs.

Moreover, you will actually become a truly independent learner in the process.

Onward and upward.

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LOL you get it all out? LOL LOL lighten up. Bottom line, NO MED school is going to take anyone serious taking online classes.....WAIT, let me take a sip of my mai tai here in paradise.....thanks for waiting......lighten up, life is too short......ME KE ALOHA PUMEHANA MAI KAI LO MAHALO!!!! ALOHA FROM HAWAII!!!!!!!!

FutureDoctorJ said:

LOL you get it all out? LOL LOL lighten up. Bottom line, NO MED school is going to take anyone serious taking online classes.....WAIT, let me take a sip of my mai tai here in paradise.....thanks for waiting......lighten up, life is too short......ME KE ALOHA PUMEHANA MAI KAI LO MAHALO!!!! ALOHA FROM HAWAII!!!!!!!!

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Mock on, Mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau;
Mock on, Mock on, 'tis all in vain.
You throw the sand against the wind,
And the wind blows it back again.
And every sand becomes a Gem
Reflected in the beams divine;
Blown back, they blind the mocking Eye,
But still in Israel's paths they shine.
The Atoms of Democritus
And Newton's Particles of light
Are sands upon the Red sea shore,
Where Israel's tents do shine so bright

W. Blake

Your technocratic obsession with the labs notwithstanding, I will enter medical school on my own terms.

Last Samurai

I liked "real" lab. I liked learning how a spectrophotometer, gas chromatograph, microscope, etc etc, worked. I liked the suspense of waiting for my IR spectra to print. Apparently, I am a nerd.

As a teacher, and hopefully, someday as an MD, I like real, concrete experiences. I think (and there is research to support this) that people understand and remember better when they have direct sensory experience. In fact, I was just thinking today that we should have had our physics lessons on fluids at a water park, not in a classroom or a lab.

On the other hand, I despise writing lab reports. Totally hate it.

To me, online stuff sounds like trading the fun stuff for busy work. I also question whether it's worth the money -couldn't you just buy a couple of books and some software and do it by yourself?
But I also think radiology (eg, staring at 1000s of images all day long forever) sounds like torture, and I think dermatology is gross (warts, growths, rashes, sores, ew, I'd do a colonoscopy any day over that).
To each their own.

FutureDoctorJ said:

LOL you get it all out? LOL LOL lighten up. Bottom line, NO MED school is going to take anyone serious taking online classes.....WAIT, let me take a sip of my mai tai here in paradise.....thanks for waiting......lighten up, life is too short......ME KE ALOHA PUMEHANA MAI KAI LO MAHALO!!!! ALOHA FROM HAWAII!!!!!!!!

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And then, this is also not true. Many medical schools give equal footing to online or distance courses, both MD and DO.

Also, I've seen Q here for a long time, she's not vicious, though she can be opinionated
Non-trads posting often here try to help each other out by putting things in the worst possible light -there are a LOT of posts on this forum questioning people's core motives for pursuing medicine, which is going quite a bit further than questioning your courses.

I'm personally grateful for the nay-sayers, I'd rather read it here now than hear it from an adcomm later (it's a lot cheaper), but if you really want to hear it from the adcomm, just call several schools you want to apply to and ask.

montessori2md said:

Also, I've seen Q here for a long time, she's not vicious, though she can be opinionated
Non-trads posting often here try to help each other out by putting things in the worst possible light -there are a LOT of posts on this forum questioning people's core motives for pursuing medicine, which is going quite a bit further than questioning your courses.

I'm personally grateful for the nay-sayers, I'd rather read it here now than hear it from an adcomm later (it's a lot cheaper), but if you really want to hear it from the adcomm, just call several schools you want to apply to and ask.

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I think it's less about putting things in the worst possible light and more about trying to give folks a reality check. If the poster meets the challenge, knows the risks and the ugly under belly, and yet still wants to proceed, most on here wish them well. But if someone on here posts that they want to try and be sole support to 13 kids while attending med school, or marry a dizzy freckle faced woman for a green card to get into school (both examples from this year), a lot of the regulars aren't going to say "I see no flaws in that plan" and cheer them on. And someone deciding that s/he can decide better than the adcoms what prereqs are permitted (and "enter med school on his/her own terms") falls within that camp I think. If the OP can prove us wrong, fantastic -- I hope he posts once he gets in so others can follow in his footsteps. Till then, it's the reality check issue.

Law2Doc said:

I think it's less about putting things in the worst possible light and more about trying to give folks a reality check. If the poster meets the challenge, knows the risks and the ugly under belly, and yet still wants to proceed, most on here wish them well. But if someone on here posts that they want to try and be sole support to 13 kids while attending med school, or marry a dizzy freckle faced woman for a green card to get into school (both examples from this year), a lot of the regulars aren't going to say "I see no flaws in that plan" and cheer them on. And someone deciding that s/he can decide better than the adcoms what prereqs are permitted (and "enter med school on his/her own terms") falls within that camp I think. If the OP can prove us wrong, fantastic -- I hope he posts once he gets in so others can follow in his footsteps. Till then, it's the reality check issue.

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Agree.

montessori2md said:

Also, I've seen Q here for a long time, she's not vicious, though she can be opinionated
Non-trads posting often here try to help each other out by putting things in the worst possible light -there are a LOT of posts on this forum questioning people's core motives for pursuing medicine, which is going quite a bit further than questioning your courses.

I'm personally grateful for the nay-sayers, I'd rather read it here now than hear it from an adcomm later (it's a lot cheaper), but if you really want to hear it from the adcomm, just call several schools you want to apply to and ask.

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I do have my opinions, and as one of the minority of regular posters in the nontrad forum who is already in med school and who volunteers for the admissions office at my school, I am happy to share my experiences when those of you who are applying now ask for advice. That being said, people are free to take my advice for whatever they think it's worth; if you think I'm talking out of my derriere, by all means, feel free to ignore me. I won't take it personally, and I'll still wish you all possible success.

My $.02: it's one thing to forge your own path, and to be bold and fabulous and take no prisoners and make no apologies. Quite American, or at least how we like to think of ourselves. It's another thing to post your adventures, described as what the standard should be, on an internet forum, where people come for information about how to navigate this complicated and conservative admissions process.

I don't think we're at risk of having newcomers go off and take online labs because "that guy was cool," but I'd hate to see newcomers taking anything on this thread as full permission to take online labs.

Meanwhile, the value of hands-on lab, in my experience, is that you get to MAKE MISTAKES and use your senses and try and fail and fail and fail and then finally it kind of works. Just like life. Figuring out how to get everything done on a 3-hour schedule, when you'll have to wait in line for supplies with 400 other undergrads, and you've got a limited amount of reagents, and the only time you can get a melting point is at the beginning of class when the equipment is not overheated: can you enjoy this? If not, should you perhaps consider a field that is less messy, less competitive, and more entertaining?

Best of luck to you all.

Please I really need help . Does anyone know of any immunology online courses?

chiloxy said:

Please I really need help . Does anyone know of any immunology online courses?

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UC Berkeley Extension, I think.

chiloxy said:

Please I really need help . Does anyone know of any immunology online courses?

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immunology is not a prereq for med school so it doesn't really generate the same issues raised in this thread.

I took labs including Organic Chemistry back in the late seventies/early eighties. Could not set up still without breaking condenser. One guy tried to flunk me for low yields, bad writeups, a parent pleaded it up to a D. Bad Scene. How do people do all the writeups? I was so naive. They must have writeups of the same experiments in frat files somewhere. Lousy 1 or 2 credit course takes more time than studying for lecture and who can afford that?? At least use a school that has it as a section instead of a separate Mickey Mouse course!