med & law school

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It seems there are several people on sdn who have come to med school after completing law school and working as a lawyer for some period of time.

Wondering if it goes the other way as well...Are there many md's in law school? It seems like law first then medicine is more common (other than the joint programs, of course.)

Originally Posted by jocg27

It seems there are several people on sdn who have come to med school after completing law school and working as a lawyer for some period of time.

Wondering if it goes the other way as well...Are there many md's in law school? It seems like law first then medicine is more common (other than the joint programs, of course.)

People do law first because law tends to be a field with no prereqs, so it attracts quite of few of those unsure about their career. It is a quick 3 years, and there are no training/residency years, and so in a lot of cases you will be earning a nice income and paying your loans off in a very short period of time, and thus have fewer impediments preventing you from trying other paths, other than the proverbial golden handcuffs. Medicine by contrast has many prereqs, is a longer and more expensive schooling, and you are required to invest 3-6 years into your training in residency after you finish school if you ever hope to practice. Because of the larger student loans and longer investment time, few people discard their medical training as readilly, nor do they go down the medicine path as lightly/undecidedly in the first place.

Interesting. My impression was that most who decide to do both of these degrees go the other way - MD then JD. JD can be done on a part -time evening basis, while MD is a much larger all-encompassing committment.

I agree that medical training is not something that people will "discard" as readily as legal training.

Originally Posted by Moki

Interesting. My impression was that most who decide to do both of these degrees go the other way - MD then JD. JD can be done on a part -time evening basis, while MD is a much larger all-encompassing committment.

I agree that medical training is not something that people will "discard" as readily as legal training.

Your impression would be incorrect. Far more people go from law to medicine than medicine to law.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Your impression would be incorrect. Far more people go from law to medicine than medicine to law.

You state that with confidence. Source?

Originally Posted by beetlerum

You state that with confidence. Source?

It's simple math. There are many times more lawyers than doctors. Thus even if the same percentage makes the jump each way, there are many more going from law than to. And from personal experience and observation, having been at both ends of such a jump, I can assure you it is mostly a unidirectional journey. But believe what you want.

From what I know, Law2Doc is probably right.

When I was planning my trip back to med school, many people at work, especially those with science backgrounds, told me how much they had wanted to go to medicine (and still do).

But when confronted with the question why they do not go ahead and work at their med school dreams, these same people tend to balk at the idea of having to do pre-reqs which will take two years, and an 8 hour knowledge based exam with no assurances of getting in.

One close friend told me he would also do medical school....if he was still in college. Having been out of school for almost two years (at that time) and at the ripe old age of 23, he decided that med school was not an option since he'd have to quit his job, take out loans and go back to school, all for a program that does not guarantee admittance into med school. He said if he knew he could apply and get in right now, he'd apply, but knowing he didn't have his prereqs and that he'd have to work hard for two years, his inclination to do medicine dramatically decreased.

Another friend is doing the law path. Her mother mentioned that she wasn't sure what she wanted to do, only that she wanted to make money and do something related to international business. However, my friend felt like she was wasting her time by merely getting by with a bachelors. In the end, she decided to go do law. I dont' believe she has any exposure to the profession other than what she sees on TV. Strange, huh?

But anyway, I could see how a person who may have a small interest in law may find it easier to go to law school than a person who has small interest in medicine.

Law school requires no prereqs other than a bachelors and the LSAT does not require specific knowledge (making it more broadly available). Also, since law schools are easier to get into than med school on average, people with only small inclinations to go one way or another may find it easier to go do law school than people who have inclination to go to med school.

With less "hoops" to jump through, the average law student may more likely realize law school is a bad fit than the average med student, who have had their commitment tested throughout the premed process.

Btw, I'm not trying to piss on law schools. I did look into law as a profession a long while back because my dad wanted me to do it. I realized that he wanted me to do it for the wrong reasons (money, prestige) and I was inclined to look into it for the wrong reasons (please parents, prestige, money). So you could say I almost made the same mistake that so many young law wannabes make, thinking of law as a default pathway for those that dont' know what they want to do, but want a nice degree and a corner office anyway.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

It's simple math. There are many times more lawyers than doctors. Thus even if the same percentage makes the jump each way, there are many more going from law than to. And from personal experience and observation, having been at both ends of such a jump, I can assure you it is mostly a unidirectional journey. But believe what you want.

Yes, but as the other poster pointed out, a lawyer has to take prereqs and make a big shift to become a doctor. On the other hand, a doctor can go to law school on a lark, possibly while still practicing medicine on the side. I suspect you're just wrong. But what I reacted to was the confidence with which you stated a position based on little other than intuition, a position that may not even be right.

Also, your point about the higher number of lawyers just makes no sense. You could just as easily argue that because there are so many lawyers, even if the same percentage of lawyers were formerly doctors as the reverse, there would be a lot more doctors to lawyers than the opposite.

Originally Posted by beetlerum

Yes, but as the other poster pointed out, a lawyer has to take prereqs and make a big shift to become a doctor. On the other hand, a doctor can go to law school on a lark, possibly while still practicing medicine on the side. I suspect you're just wrong. But what I reacted to was the confidence with which you stated a position based on little other than intuition, a position that may not even be right.

Also, your point about the higher number of lawyers just makes no sense. You could just as easily argue that because there are so many lawyers, even if the same percentage of lawyers were formerly doctors as the reverse, there would be a lot more doctors to lawyers than the opposite.

LOL. I continue to be confident in the accuracy of my post. The prereqs are really not as significant a hurdle as deciding to make such a major career change, and the majority of law schools are full time, not something you could do while holding down a physician job. If you truly believe you can go to law school and practice medicine on the side, you are being unrealistic. But again, you can believe what you want.

FWIW, You seem to have some ongoing hostility toward my posts (multiple times on several threads now), so perhaps you should save yourself some aggravation and just not read them. Good luck.

Originally Posted by beetlerum

Yes, but as the other poster pointed out, a lawyer has to take prereqs and make a big shift to become a doctor. On the other hand, a doctor can go to law school on a lark, possibly while still practicing medicine on the side. I suspect you're just wrong. But what I reacted to was the confidence with which you stated a position based on little other than intuition, a position that may not even be right.

Also, your point about the higher number of lawyers just makes no sense. You could just as easily argue that because there are so many lawyers, even if the same percentage of lawyers were formerly doctors as the reverse, there would be a lot more doctors to lawyers than the opposite.

I am going in the other direction and I wouldn't say that as an MD, I can go to Law school "on a lark". While I CAN attend law school part time ( reverse is generally not true for medical school), I still believe that law school is going to take some preparation and participation in terms of classwork. I also took the LSAT last year (not exactly an easy test) which did require some preparation on my part too (not unlike the MCAT).

My cousin is the only other MD to JD that I know. I do have several friends who are JD to MD (or at least making the attempt). Not exactly a scientific survey but anecdotal, more going from JD to MD than in the other direction.

I also have residency and fellowship to finish before I can put energy into my law school plans. I don't think that I will be practicing both law and medicine but my cousin does both neurosurgery and law. She doesn't sleep either.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

If you truly believe you can go to law school and practice medicine on the side, you are being unrealistic. But again, you can believe what you want.

I know several people who have done that. Most medical fields allow part-time work if one chooses, providing various options for someone who wants to attend law school.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

FWIW, You seem to have some ongoing hostility toward my posts (multiple times on several threads now), so perhaps you should save yourself some aggravation and just not read them. Good luck.

Yeah, you bug me because you frequently make claims without having any basis for those claims. Sometimes these claims are offered as advice to other people who might actually listen. I guess I shouldn't read the posts, but like I said, it just bugs me, prompting a reaction.

Originally Posted by beetlerum

Yeah, you bug me because you frequently make claims without having any basis for those claims. Sometimes these claims are offered as advice to other people who might actually listen. I guess I shouldn't read the posts, but like I said, it just bugs me, prompting a reaction.

It's an open forum. I post what I believe to be true. You are welcome to disagree. Sometimes I am wrong (but infrequently with the law related stuff). You seem to be attributing some attitude to me that isn't there; perhaps you are getting hung up on my law related screen name. (I understand lots of people have had bad experiences with lawyers, but likely not my fault). Chill.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

People do law first because law tends to be a field with no prereqs, so it attracts quite of few of those unsure about their career. It is a quick 3 years, and there are no training/residency years, and so in a lot of cases you will be earning a nice income and paying your loans off in a very short period of time, and thus have fewer impediments preventing you from trying other paths, other than the proverbial golden handcuffs. Medicine by contrast has many prereqs, is a longer and more expensive schooling, and you are required to invest 3-6 years into your training in residency after you finish school if you ever hope to practice. Because of the larger student loans and longer investment time, few people discard their medical training as readilly, nor do they go down the medicine path as lightly/undecidedly in the first place.

Beetlerum, I really think Law2Doc is just making sense. It is a reasonable argument. Have you ever worked in law? There are soooo many miserable lawyers out there. They haven't invested a huge amount in school or training (compared to doctors) - it IS easier for someone to decide to make that switch. Have you never heard someone say, "I went to law school" - but they aren't practicing as an attorney? I have - lots of times. Have I ever heard someone say, "I went to medical school" and not be a practicing physician? Not at all. I'm sure there are some, but it isn't common.

After investing years of pre-reqs, time & money on the MCAT, applications, interviews - all that energy toward medicine, then school and residency training...? There are many miserable physicians out there, but all that investment makes them far less likely to make any switch to another field. It is just how people work. You don't really need statistics, though I'm sure they are findable.

Originally Posted by Orthodoc40

Beetlerum, I really think Law2Doc is just making sense. It is a reasonable argument. Have you ever worked in law? There are soooo many miserable lawyers out there. They haven't invested a huge amount in school or training (compared to doctors) - it IS easier for someone to decide to make that switch. Have you never heard someone say, "I went to law school" - but they aren't practicing as an attorney? I have - lots of times. Have I ever heard someone say, "I went to medical school" and not be a practicing physician? Not at all. I'm sure there are some, but it isn't common.

After investing years of pre-reqs, time & money on the MCAT, applications, interviews - all that energy toward medicine, then school and residency training...? There are many miserable physicians out there, but all that investment makes them far less likely to make any switch to another field. It is just how people work. You don't really need statistics, though I'm sure they are findable.

My point is not that Law2Doc is wrong. I suspect he is, but that's not the point. It was that he said to someone who made my claim: "Your impression would be incorrect. Far more people go from law to medicine than medicine to law." He asserted this as a matter of clear fact, as he often does. I don't believe people should make claims like that without having some kind of real evidence. And, in fact, most people wouldn't. That is all.

I happen to know more people who've gone med to law than the other way. All the arguments made for the opposite conclusion can be taken differently. Yes, many more people leave law than leave medicine, but they tend to leave for business and other fields. Yes, medicine has a higher investing, discouraging leaving, but that higher investment also imposes a higher barrier to entry.

I don't know the statistics, but there were at least 2 physicians in my law school class, and one of my professors had received his MD before getting a JD. So, going the MD to JD route certainly does happen. Also, as others have pointed out, most major cities have a night JD program, making it doable for physicians to go to law school on the side.

Another thing to note is that having an MD would be asset to getting admitted to law school, but having a JD could possibly be a liability for medical school admissions (at least that's a prevailing belief in the legal community). Considering how ignorant most people in the medical field seem to be about the law and lawyers, I could buy it.

Anyway, it's safe to say people to do it both ways, and there's probably no good data out there about which switch is more common. My unscientific belief is that lawyers tend to be more oriented towards career change than doctors for all the reasons cited above -- many of us went to law school for poor reasons and with little knowledge of the legal world, etc. However, doctors have any easier time making the switch logistically (no prereqs, no admissions bias, etc.)

Originally Posted by beetlerum

My point is not that Law2Doc is wrong. I suspect he is, but that's not the point. It was that he said to someone who made my claim: "Your impression would be incorrect. Far more people go from law to medicine than medicine to law." He asserted this as a matter of clear fact, as he often does. I don't believe people should make claims like that without having some kind of real evidence. And, in fact, most people wouldn't. That is all.

I happen to know more people who've gone med to law than the other way. All the arguments made for the opposite conclusion can be taken differently. Yes, many more people leave law than leave medicine, but they tend to leave for business and other fields. Yes, medicine has a higher investing, discouraging leaving, but that higher investment also imposes a higher barrier to entry.

Again, if my confidence in the accuracy of my posts bothers you, just don't read them. I'm cool with that.

FWIW I do have a better vantage point than those who have never worked in either industry.

Originally Posted by exlawgrrl

However, doctors have any easier time making the switch logistically (no prereqs, no admissions bias, etc.)

The logistics still favor leaving law than vice versa, in my opinion. Folks who go into mediicine generally have much larger loans, have had longer school and then had to do a 3-6 year residency, and so are thus usually further along in their careers and life (making golden handcuff and family situation issues loom much larger than the reverse, where you may be years younger). Unlike law, where you often will have paid down your loans in a few years out of school, medicine is often going to take a while longer to pay off (thanks to bigger cost and long low-pay training period), making a lot of people averse to taking out more debt. This all adds up to a bigger impediment than taking a year of prereqs, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by njbmd

I am going in the other direction and I wouldn't say that as an MD, I can go to Law school "on a lark". While I CAN attend law school part time ( reverse is generally not true for medical school), I still believe that law school is going to take some preparation and participation in terms of classwork. I also took the LSAT last year (not exactly an easy test) which did require some preparation on my part too (not unlike the MCAT).

My cousin is the only other MD to JD that I know. I do have several friends who are JD to MD (or at least making the attempt). Not exactly a scientific survey but anecdotal, more going from JD to MD than in the other direction.

I also have residency and fellowship to finish before I can put energy into my law school plans. I don't think that I will be practicing both law and medicine but my cousin does both neurosurgery and law. She doesn't sleep either.

If you don't mind my asking, why are you going to law school? I only read this forum occasionally, but I've read many of your posts before, and my impression was always that you loved your life as a surgeon.

I ask because I am a lawyer who occasionally considers embarking on the med school path, so I'm naturally interested in knowing why someone would do the opposite.

Originally Posted by Lawguy

If you don't mind my asking, why are you going to law school? I only read this forum occasionally, but I've read many of your posts before, and my impression was always that you loved your life as a surgeon.

I ask because I am a lawyer who occasionally considers embarking on the med school path, so I'm naturally interested in knowing why someone would do the opposite.

I love surgery and being a surgeon. A JD gives me options just as it has given my cousin, the neurosurgeon, options. Both of us have specific career plans for the JD combined with the surgical specialties.

Originally Posted by exlawgrrl

Another thing to note is that having an MD would be asset to getting admitted to law school, but having a JD could possibly be a liability for medical school admissions (at least that's a prevailing belief in the legal community). Considering how ignorant most people in the medical field seem to be about the law and lawyers, I could buy it.

hm..I don't really agree, although I guess I'm going on my gut and don't really have any information about it. It seems to me either degree would be an asset in applying to the other. Why would a law degree be a liability applying to med school? (As compared with whatever pluses and minuses come with being a nontrad in general, ie spending the same amount of years in the business world, or whatever).

I know there's a lack of understanding between the two professions about the other (of course, most people understand neither law nor medicine), but still...at the least, everyone understands there are all kinds of lawyers. As long as you don't come to your interview boasting about how you've made your millions off suing obstetricians, would it really hurt you?

Originally Posted by jocg27

hm..I don't really agree, although I guess I'm going on my gut and don't really have any information about it. It seems to me either degree would be an asset in applying to the other. Why would a law degree be a liability applying to med school? (As compared with whatever pluses and minuses come with being a nontrad in general, ie spending the same amount of years in the business world, or whatever).

I know there's a lack of understanding between the two professions about the other (of course, most people understand neither law nor medicine), but still...at the least, everyone understands there are all kinds of lawyers. As long as you don't come to your interview boasting about how you've made your millions off suing obstetricians, would it really hurt you?

I totally disagree with exlawgrrl on this one as well, although my perspective is probably different as I believe she didn't practice. For some of us, it was the opposite of a liability, and opened many doors. Lawyers have transferrable skills that carry over into medicine. Both are professions, largely people oriented service industries, and both involve high stress, major responsibilities, confidentiality and long hours. On some level both involve helping people deal with problems. And medicine is signifcantly regulated, so having a law degree to help navigate the requirements is often an asset. Someone successful in one profession has a definite track record.
You just have to allay the schools that you aren't going into medicine to sue doctors, which shouldn't be too hard a sell if you came from an area of law other than litigation.

At one med school interview I went to, the dean of students said half jokingly in front of all the interviewees that the school "tries to keep lawyers out" from getting accepted. A few months before that, I emailed him about the school's MD/JD program and even though he put together the program (made it possible) he said no one in the history of the school has joined the program and that he sees no point in someone doing it if they want to practice clinical medicine. I got the impression that going to law school first then applying for medical school would actually be worse than doing nothing at all and when I heard what he said during the orientation I was glad I turned down the law school acceptance. Oh, and this dean was a former executive of the AAMC so his views on this matter are probably the prevailing attitude of most medical schools whether they admit to it or not.

Originally Posted by mecute

Oh, and this dean was a former executive of the AAMC so his views on this matter are probably the prevailing attitude of most medical schools whether they admit to it or not.

Unless he was elected to the AAMC based on this opinion, I doubt the mere fact that he has this view makes it the prevailing attitude. I can speak from my own experience that it wasn't a hindrance. And a good many schools are accepting folks into such dual degree programs, although the utility of this particular combination is certainly questioned by some.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Unless he was elected to the AAMC based on this opinion, I doubt the mere fact that he has this view makes it the prevailing attitude. I can speak from my own experience that it wasn't a hindrance. And a good many schools are accepting folks into such dual degree programs, although the utility of this particular combination is certainly questioned by some.

I just knew I would get this kind of response from Law2Doc. Just because you got accepted without any *apparent* problems doesn't mean there isn't a well known bias in the medical establishment against training lawyers to become doctors. If there was just one person on your admissions committee who expressed a reservation not to accept you then you would never know would you? I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of lawyers who try to get into medical school and get in successfully had to convince the adcoms they were walking away from law altogether for whatever reason and they wanted to devote their life to medicine. Telling the adcom that you want to go to medical school to become a more knowledgeable health lawyer equals auto-rejection. It's common sense and the unwritten rule in the admissions game. To say there was not at least a half-truth to the dean's statement about keeping lawyers out of med school is being in denial on your part.

Originally Posted by mecute

I just knew I would get this kind of response from Law2Doc. Just because you got accepted without any *apparent* problems doesn't mean there isn't a well known bias in the medical establishment against training lawyers to become doctors. If there was just one person on your admissions committee who expressed a reservation not to accept you then you would never know would you? I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of lawyers who try to get into medical school and get in successfully had to convince the adcoms they were walking away from law altogether for whatever reason and they wanted to devote their life to medicine. Telling the adcom that you want to go to medical school to become a more knowledgeable health lawyer equals auto-rejection. It's common sense and the unwritten rule in the admissions game. To say there was not at least a half-truth to the dean's statement about keeping lawyers out of med school is being in denial on your part.

You know, I honestly don't know how strong the bias is. I know in the legal community, it's generally thought that it's impossible to get into medical school with a JD, but law people looking for non-legal jobs seem to be suffering from some sort of communal depression so their assessment could very well be false. In general, some people in the medical community are suspicious of career changers and non-trads, which is an issue for all non-trads. However, no one in the legal admissions community dislikes career changers or non-trads. So, yeah, as a lawyer or person with a legal degree, you've got to spin it and sell it to adcoms. As a doctor wanting to go to law school, you don't have to do any selling.

One thing I can say is that I'm not appalled that a medical school wouldn't admit a lawyer who wanted to go to medical school to improve her legal practice. One, no health lawyer needs an MD, and the value of the MD to any practicing attorney is nowhere near the value of four years of school (coupled with lost income) and four years of medical school tuition. Two, we already don't have enough spots in medical schools to meet our need for physicians, so giving the spot to someone you know is not going to practice seems unacceptable.

This conversation does point to a key distinction between medical and law school. Medical schools have a specific goal to train doctors. Law schools want to turn out mainly lawyers, but since we have an overall glut of lawyers, no one at a law school really cares if their students practice or not. Law schools actually market themselves as general liberal arts like programs that can prepare their students for all sorts of jobs. I also think joint MD/JD programs are pretty darn worthless -- just throwing that one out there.

Originally Posted by jocg27

hm..I don't really agree, although I guess I'm going on my gut and don't really have any information about it. It seems to me either degree would be an asset in applying to the other. Why would a law degree be a liability applying to med school? (As compared with whatever pluses and minuses come with being a nontrad in general, ie spending the same amount of years in the business world, or whatever).

Please note my usage of "could possibly" in my above statement. One assertion I stand strongly behind is that having an MD/DO would never be a detriment in getting admitted to law school.

I am currently a 4th year med student interested in pursueing a law degree. I love medicine, but I have always been interested in law. In fact I was actually accepted to a combined law/language degree straight out of high school ( europe ) but turned it down to pursue medicine. In any event I am wondering about the utility of an MD/JD combination. Is it feasible to do a year of law school prior to beginning residency? ( I finish Med school july 07, and do not plan on matching until July 08 ). Is it feasible to complete the remainder of the JD while in an anesthesiology residency?

I may be wrong, but as I see it, with the current state of Healthcare, declining reimbursements for physicians, the need for physicians as a whole to band together and have a louder voice on Capitol hill, I would think the MD/JD would be advantageous if one were so inclined. At this point I have tons of questions and very little knowledge about going MD to JD. I would sincerely appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

To add to the current thread, at my school we had an MD to JD who lectured on ethics. He had quite the lucrative career and was always flying all over the place consulting. He had completed a surgical residency.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

If you truly believe you can go to law school and practice medicine on the side, you are being unrealistic.

There are a few cases of physicians' going to law school part time. The first graduating class from Concord Law School immediately comes to mind. However, going to school full-time---a requirement at most universities---would prohibit a medical career on the side. The best you could hope for (in my opinion) is to moonlight one shift each weekend at an urgent care center or emergency department with set hours, no call, and your own coverage of malpractice insurance.

Originally Posted by jocg27

Why would a law degree be a liability applying to med school?

Some guesses:

(1) Med schools aren't looking to pick up "professional students." They want people who are going to practice medicine, not collect degrees as part of a stepping stone into another career.

(2) I know of a JD-to-med student who openly states that is reason for getting an MD is to sue doctors. I'm sure he didn't say this during his interviews, but med schools want to keep such an attitude away from their campuses.

Originally Posted by exlawgrrl

I also think joint MD/JD programs are pretty darn worthless -- just throwing that one out there.

Worthless is probably too strong, but you will certainly not get a better return on your investment than you are getting with one or the other. The jobs where you actually can use both credentials are pretty limited, with the biggest ones being in public health legislation and academics. In all other areas, you will be trailblazing, and having to prove to potential employers that what they really need is someone having such combo.

Originally Posted by bulletproof

I may be wrong, but as I see it, with the current state of Healthcare, declining reimbursements for physicians, the need for physicians as a whole to band together and have a louder voice on Capitol hill, I would think the MD/JD would be advantageous if one were so inclined.

Are you talking politicians or lobbyists? If the latter, you are assuming that physicians cannot hire a lawyer or lobbyist without an MD to adequately advocate for the interests of physicians on Capitol Hill. The AMA and many other physician and healthcare organizations already regularly do this. Not sure how having MD/JDs in their ranks is going to provide much improvement over a hired gun.

Originally Posted by deuist

Some guesses:

(1) Med schools aren't looking to pick up "professional students." They want people who are going to practice medicine, not collect degrees as part of a stepping stone into another career.

(2) I know of a JD-to-med student who openly states that is reason for getting an MD is to sue doctors. I'm sure he didn't say this during his interviews, but med schools want to keep such an attitude away from their campuses.

Agree with both these statements, and every lawyer who gets into medicine has to get past these surmountable hurdles (not too much of a chore since to some extent your prior job regularly involved making the best argument you could given a particular set of facts ).

As for the first one, the folks who actually practiced law have an easier time, in my opinion. It is much easier to show you are making a true career change if you have practiced for a while; if you go immediately from one school to another, the degree collecting and "professional student" issues tend to pop up. You also can play up transferable skills.

As for the second one -- I mentioned in a prior post that you need to allay fears that you aren't going to med school to sue doctors. Most people have no trouble buying this because if this is your real reason for going to med school, you are foolishly wasting your time. 99.99% of all medmal lawyers do not have a medical degree, and there is really no need for one -- it is not a prerequisite. Thus you are spending 4 years in med school and hundreds of thousands in tuition and lost salary for a degree you know you will not need. There certainly is no evidence that medmal lawyers with MD degrees get paid more, and there is no shortage of healthcare workers you can hire to assist you with trial prep. So either the person you know is messing with you, or he is making a bad career move. At any rate, a quick mention in your PS and interviews that you are planning to leave the law and become a clinician tends to be all that is required to allay any adcom fears.

Originally Posted by deuist

There are a few cases of physicians' going to law school part time. The first graduating class from Concord Law School immediately comes to mind. However, going to school full-time---a requirement at most universities---would prohibit a medical career on the side. The best you could hope for (in my opinion) is to moonlight one shift each weekend at an urgent care center or emergency department with set hours, no call, and your own coverage of malpractice insurance.

Yeah, there are actually quite a few parttime/night law schools where virtually all the students work full-time. The catch is that it takes 4 years to complete your degree instead of 3. If you could cut your work as a physician down to 40 to 50 hours a week, I think it'd be doable (it would suck, but you could do it). From my understanding, it is possible to do that, depending on your specialty. The good thing about law school is that there is virtually no busy work, so the time commitment is not as huge as it could be.

Originally Posted by exlawgrrl

Yeah, there are actually quite a few parttime/night law schools where virtually all the students work full-time. The catch is that it takes 4 years to complete your degree instead of 3. If you could cut your work as a physician down to 40 to 50 hours a week, I think it'd be doable (it would suck, but you could do it). From my understanding, it is possible to do that, depending on your specialty. The good thing about law school is that there is virtually no busy work, so the time commitment is not as huge as it could be.

If you didn't care about doing above average, you could attend law school full-time and still work maybe half-time on the side. Definitely doable, especially after IL.

Originally Posted by testerdrop

If you didn't care about doing above average, you could attend law school full-time and still work maybe half-time on the side. Definitely doable, especially after IL.

Yep, that's true. Lots of law students do work parttime while attending school fulltime in their second and third years. My understanding is that some of the lower ranked law schools (you know, the ones that accept all their applicants) actually fail out a sizable number of their students, but I think the mid and higher level law schools have moved away from failing students. For example, my school had a B curve where basicallly 50% of the class got Bs, 25% got As and the other 25% got Cs. A professor might give one to two Ds or Fs, but I think you really, really had to be asking for it to score essentially outside of the curve. I did not know of a single person who failed out, and unlike med school, no one had to redo a year either.

I remember having lots and lots of spare time in law school and really don't relate to people talking about how hard it was. But then I wasn't on law review.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Unless he was elected to the AAMC based on this opinion, I doubt the mere fact that he has this view makes it the prevailing attitude. I can speak from my own experience that it wasn't a hindrance. And a good many schools are accepting folks into such dual degree programs, although the utility of this particular combination is certainly questioned by some.

I used to be against Law2Doc's advice, but i agree with him on this. I just finished law school, and I was going to go straight to medical school, but I decided to take the bar exam, and work.

Why waste all that training and schooling just to switch degrees? I think a person is worth far more if they build upon their education and assets. And having your bar completed, and actually working as an attorney is invaluable in my opinion. If you complete law school and never practice you have very little to offer.

As far as who switches more, I would have to agree with Law2Doc, it seems from my own personal experience that way more attorneys switch to medicine then the other way around. Like another posted has stated not many Docs quit their job after practicing. But many attorneys do.

Originally Posted by testerdrop

If you didn't care about doing above average, you could attend law school full-time and still work maybe half-time on the side. Definitely doable, especially after IL.

Working while attending full time wasn't doable where I went, as the classes went well into the afternoon, and the day to day class preparation was actually not insignificant.

I know of one or two people who failed out of law school, but attrition usually comes from the fairly significant dropout rate. However MANY people fail the bar and never get to practice. A lot of states only pass 70% of takers, so for every school that brags a 90+% pass rate, there's likely a school or two not doing so well.

Originally Posted by Sainttpk

I used to be against Law2Doc's advice, but i agree with him on this.

Welcome to the dark side.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Working while attending full time wasn't doable where I went, as the classes went well into the afternoon, and the day to day class preparation was actually not insignificant.

It's been a few years since I've had to concern myself with such things, but setting aside the question of whether it's physically possible to work and go to law school, isn't there an ABA rule that requires accredited schools to limit the number of hours a full-time student can work outside school? My memory is foggy, but at my school, I believe students were required to limit their outside work to 20 hrs/week, and I think that was an ABA mandate (though how well it is enforced may be another question).

Originally Posted by Lawguy

It's been a few years since I've had to concern myself with such things, but setting aside the question of whether it's physically possible to work and go to law school, isn't there an ABA rule that requires accredited schools to limit the number of hours a full-time student can work outside school? My memory is foggy, but at my school, I believe students were required to limit their outside work to 20 hrs/week, and I think that was an ABA mandate (though how well it is enforced may be another question).

I believe the 20 hr/wk limit only applies to full time students. If you take fewer than full time credits at law school, you can work more and wouldn't violate the ABA rules. That is why most places that offer evening courses don't have you graduating in 3 years, as you are attending part time, and not allowed to take a full schedule plus work.

Originally Posted by Lawguy

It's been a few years since I've had to concern myself with such things, but setting aside the question of whether it's physically possible to work and go to law school, isn't there an ABA rule that requires accredited schools to limit the number of hours a full-time student can work outside school? My memory is foggy, but at my school, I believe students were required to limit their outside work to 20 hrs/week, and I think that was an ABA mandate (though how well it is enforced may be another question).

At my school, I think we were technically not supposed to work during the first year (or at least it was strongly advised that we not work). After that, I don't remember hearing anything about a limit, but there might have been one. The one thing I can say is that none of that was enforced.

Anyway, why are we talking about this? I think the only people who were going to work fulltime were people attending school parttime, and again, working fulltime is the norm for those students. You can definitely work or have other significant activities during law school even if attending fulltime, though, which sets it apart from medical school.

Figure this question would attach to this discussion:

I am a law student (3L) applying to post-bacc programs with the desire to enter medical school in the next 3 years. I do not want to practice law. I want to practice medicine. I am finishing my degree because I have heard from numerous sources that dropping out in grad school is not a good choice. I have a question concerning the bar - that is, should I take it? I do not plan to get a job in a law firm, I do not plan to practice law, I don't even really want to go into policy - just practice good ole regular clinical medicine. The bar is somewhat expensive to study for and take as well as taking up a good amount of time - is it worth it in applying to med schools? Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by tarheeler2205

Figure this question would attach to this discussion:

I am a law student (3L) applying to post-bacc programs with the desire to enter medical school in the next 3 years. I do not want to practice law. I want to practice medicine. I am finishing my degree because I have heard from numerous sources that dropping out in grad school is not a good choice. I have a question concerning the bar - that is, should I take it? I do not plan to get a job in a law firm, I do not plan to practice law, I don't even really want to go into policy - just practice good ole regular clinical medicine. The bar is somewhat expensive to study for and take as well as taking up a good amount of time - is it worth it in applying to med schools? Thanks in advance.

If you are never going to practice, I'm not sure why you would take it. It would not only take time and money to study for but you will be paying hundreds of dollars a year in dues to stay active and in good standing. However I will put in my token suggestion that it is far easier to get into med school, and you would have far less to explain away, as a true career changer, having actually worked in another field rather than jumping from law school to post bac to med school. You will have to explain away the suggestions that you are degree hopping, or a professional student. And folks are going to inquire how you know you didin't want to do law when you never tried it (practice is different than school). These are surmountable obstacles, but they are obstacles. I do agree that you need to complete the degree though, because your ability to not stick through one school may suggest to adcoms that you won't make it through another. Good luck

I gotta wonder why it would be a poor decision to leave law school after 1-2 years, rather than incur mass debt for nothing. It just doesn't make sense to me. The law and medicine are so different, why would it look bad to realize that one wasn't for you once you got there? Unlike medicine, you really can't get a "feel" for the law until you try it. Once there, many realize it isn't for them....

Originally Posted by deuist

There are a few cases of physicians' going to law school part time. The first graduating class from Concord Law School immediately comes to mind. However, going to school full-time---a requirement at most universities---would prohibit a medical career on the side. The best you could hope for (in my opinion) is to moonlight one shift each weekend at an urgent care center or emergency department with set hours, no call, and your own coverage of malpractice insurance.

There are two weekend only law school programs I know of, there may be more? But you could certainly take weekends off to got to law school and still practice medicine full time during the week, call might be an issue but I am sure you could get out of weekend call most places. Only problem is these school are pretty low on the US News law school rankings.

Originally Posted by Gooble

I gotta wonder why it would be a poor decision to leave law school after 1-2 years, rather than incur mass debt for nothing. It just doesn't make sense to me. The law and medicine are so different, why would it look bad to realize that one wasn't for you once you got there? Unlike medicine, you really can't get a "feel" for the law until you try it. Once there, many realize it isn't for them....

It's poor decision in terms of getting into medical school. Med school adcoms hate to see people leaving their professional degrees unfinished. The idea is that if you will leave a law degree unfinished, you may also do the same with med school. Adcoms want to pick people that will most likely finish their degree, not jump ship at the first sign of trouble.

I still think this is ridiculous. Graduate degree, maybe, but a professional degree is different. I don't believe for a moment that an adcom. would rather see someone spend $100k+ to become a lawyer rather than realize it isn't for them after a year.

If this is in fact the case then I guess I will stick with the law as I'm not going to law school just to go to med. school after.

Originally Posted by Gooble

I still think this is ridiculous. Graduate degree, maybe, but a professional degree is different. I don't believe for a moment that an adcom. would rather see someone spend $100k+ to become a lawyer rather than realize it isn't for them after a year.

If this is in fact the case then I guess I will stick with the law as I'm not going to law school just to go to med. school after.

Put yourself in the adcoms position. The best track record for your making it through a professional degree program is that you actually completed the one you are in now. Folks who jump from degree program to degree program may be far more likely to do it again.

Maybe if it is recurring, but I don't think that's the case to go from one to another. It really is foolish to take on $100k of debt only to not practice law and try to bounce to another set of debt. I'm in a different circumstance, and based on this info. likely will just stay where I am and kiss medicine goodbye unfortunately.

Without hearing it from multiple adcomms. directly though, I still contest this info. It just doesn't make sense to want people to spend 4 years doing what they don't want to do only to head another direction.

I have two friends that dropped out of grad. programs and are in medical school and they didn't share any of these issues so I'm glad to be getting other opinions on here regardless.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Gooble

Without hearing it from multiple adcomms. directly though, I still contest this info.

There are at least two med schools in your area code. I suggest you let your fingers do the walking.