What should I do about MY HELL!

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Day 3 of OB rotation from hell has ended and I'm already severly homicidal. I have the queen OB B*TCH of all time as my resident. Let me just list the things she has done/said in the past 3 days:

1. Yells and snaps at me constantly when I ask her pertinent OB questions.
2. Or, ignores me when I ask her things
3. Makes me rewrite an entire H&P for NO REASON!!!!
4. Questions what I learned in school (no offense to anyone, but she's a DO, so c'mon, who didn't learn what in school?)
5. Strolls in at 6:45 when I'm ready to present at 6 and she TELLS ME to be there at 6.
6. Makes sly comments left and right and puts me down.
7. Closes doors in front of my face
8. Stares me down if I'm laughing with other residents

So, I've decided that I can't live like this for the next 5 weeks. I DON'T deserve this kind of treatment. I PAY MONEY to be educated and I want a good OB experience. I don't want this b*tch to ruin this rotation for me. Those days where med students get scutted and treated like sh*t are over.

So, what should I do? Talk to her? Tell my chief resident? Tell the program director? Tell my school? What? Thoughts please.

1. Yells and snaps at me constantly when I ask her pertinent OB questions.

Then don't ask her things.

2. Or, ignores me when I ask her things

See above.

3. Makes me rewrite an entire H&P for NO REASON!!!!

Chances are there was a reason, even if it was just punitive because of your attitude.

Those days where med students get scutted and treated like sh*t are over.

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one.

Suck it up, deal with it and realize the idea of a "good" OB rotation is borderline ludicrous. It'll be over soon.

no offense to anyone, but she's a DO, so c'mon, who didn't learn what in school?

Oh, and losing the chip off your shoulder might not hurt. :

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

Day 3 of OB rotation from hell has ended and I'm already severly homicidal. I have the queen OB B*TCH of all time as my resident. Let me just list the things she has done/said in the past 3 days:

1. Yells and snaps at me constantly when I ask her pertinent OB questions.
2. Or, ignores me when I ask her things
3. Makes me rewrite an entire H&P for NO REASON!!!!
4. Questions what I learned in school (no offense to anyone, but she's a DO, so c'mon, who didn't learn what in school?)
5. Strolls in at 6:45 when I'm ready to present at 6 and she TELLS ME to be there at 6.
6. Makes sly comments left and right and puts me down.
7. Closes doors in front of my face
8. Stares me down if I'm laughing with other residents

So, I've decided that I can't live like this for the next 5 weeks. I DON'T deserve this kind of treatment. I PAY MONEY to be educated and I want a good OB experience. I don't want this b*tch to ruin this rotation for me. Those days where med students get scutted and treated like sh*t are over.

So, what should I do? Talk to her? Tell my chief resident? Tell the program director? Tell my school? What? Thoughts please.

Your situation is not uncommon, unfortunately. The key thing for you to evaluate is: How bad do you want to honor the course, and how much are you willing to lay yourself on the line? You are going to encounter a lot of folks who will tell you to suck it up, but I'm not going to be one of them. Here is my take on it.

1) If you stick it out, you may end up with Honors (assuming you are good). Some residents take the "trial by fire" as a mark of toughness, and it is not uncommon to get treated like crap for a couple weeks, 'pass the test', and then have things get a hell of a lot better.

2) Sucking up will sometimes pay off. Volunteer for more/extra work. Ask for scut. Offer to get her coffee. This will work with some of these awful residents.

3) If you lay it on the line and go to your chief or PD, things will probably improve, assuming you are persistent. Either they will warn the resident to clean up her act, or they will transfer you to another resident. Alternatively, they may blow you off, in which case you could go to your school, and they will probably take you seriously, as what you describe sounds a lot like abuse.
However, once you complain, you can most likely forget about a great eval (though you will almost certainly pass, or they will risk being pegged for retribution).

That being said, here are my suggestions:
- give it at least a week or two; no one will take you seriously after a couple days
- if you do complain, do not mention #3 & #5 on your list, as you will just come off as lazy
- work as hard as you can, or you will give them ammunition to label your as lazy
- absolutely maintain complete professionalism at all times, even when you want to smack her
- do not complain about her to other students or residents; you will be accused of "talking behind her back"
- never mention the DO thing again; you have some misguided notions about that (and I'm in an MD program)

Good luck, let us know how it goes

Originally Posted by DropkickMurphy

Then don't ask her things.


See above.


Chances are there was a reason, even if it was just punitive because of your attitude.


BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one.

Suck it up, deal with it and realize the idea of a "good" OB rotation is borderline ludicrous. It'll be over soon.



Oh, and losing the chip off your shoulder might not hurt. :

Your advice is "don't ask her questions"??? What kind of dim philosophy is that? Oh yeah, that's what I want to do, not ask questions. God forbid I learn something. Oh, and if I want to learn how to do things the way she likes it, how the hell am I supposed to do it if I DON'T ASK HER!!!!!!!

And fyi, since YOU WEREN'T THERE, how would you know if A) there was a reason to do the H&P over and B) if I had an attitude. You have NO CLUE how cordial and polite I act. I already went through surgery and I know how to write a damn H&P. Could it be possible that she just felt like saying "do it over'? Could it be possible that she's just a b*tch? Why would you give her the benefit of the doubt?

Any yes, scutting is over. This is not 1973. Attendings are not like they used to be, neither are residents. Before, an intern never directly talk to his/her chief. They would communicate via an intermediate. Now you see interns blowing off even attendings. Scutting is not tolerated at my school. Maybe you should blow the dust off your brain.

Lastly, I kindly asked for advice from people here. I certainly did not ask for your tired attitude, nor your useless "advice". Blabber somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Tired

Your situation is not uncommon, unfortunately. The key thing for you to evaluate is: How bad do you want to honor the course, and how much are you willing to lay yourself on the line? You are going to encounter a lot of folks who will tell you to suck it up, but I'm not going to be one of them. Here is my take on it.

1) If you stick it out, you may end up with Honors (assuming you are good). Some residents take the "trial by fire" as a mark of toughness, and it is not uncommon to get treated like crap for a couple weeks, 'pass the test', and then have things get a hell of a lot better.

2) Sucking up will sometimes pay off. Volunteer for more/extra work. Ask for scut. Offer to get her coffee. This will work with some of these awful residents.

3) If you lay it on the line and go to your chief or PD, things will probably improve, assuming you are persistent. Either they will warn the resident to clean up her act, or they will transfer you to another resident. Alternatively, they may blow you off, in which case you could go to your school, and they will probably take you seriously, as what you describe sounds a lot like abuse.
However, once you complain, you can most likely forget about a great eval (though you will almost certainly pass, or they will risk being pegged for retribution).

That being said, here are my suggestions:
- give it at least a week or two; no one will take you seriously after a couple days
- if you do complain, do not mention #3 & #5 on your list, as you will just come off as lazy
- work as hard as you can, or you will give them ammunition to label your as lazy
- absolutely maintain complete professionalism at all times, even when you want to smack her
- do not complain about her to other students or residents; you will be accused of "talking behind her back"
- never mention the DO thing again; you have some misguided notions about that (and I'm in an MD program)

Good luck, let us know how it goes

Thank you for your kind advice. I really appreciate it. They sound solid to me. I'm glad there are mature, thoughtful and helpful people out there. Thanks again!

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

Lastly, I kindly asked for advice from people here. I certainly did not ask for your tired attitude, nor your useless "advice". Blabber somewhere else.

"Tired attitude"? Wow, that's like the 17th person this week to accuse me having a bad attitude.

No seriously, the moment you swiped at the DO's, you were bound to attract a smack back from Dropkick. It's just the way of things.

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

Lastly, I kindly asked for advice from people here. I certainly did not ask for your tired attitude, nor your useless "advice". Blabber somewhere else.

It sounds like the biggest attitude in this forum is yours. If you act like this at work, then no wonder you're having trouble. Tired gave you some good advice and you just railed on. Also, there are times in life (especially 3rd year), when you just have to suck it up and take it. You could be totally right nad justified, but when it comes to choosing sides, chiefs and PDs will almost always stick by their residents (unless she is uniformly thought of as a nut job). That leaves you without very many options.

This being an Ob question did you have someone in mind when you typed that?

Originally Posted by BigNavyPedsGuy

unless she is uniformly thought of as a nut job

Originally Posted by BigNavyPedsGuy

It sounds like the biggest attitude in this forum is yours. If you act like this at work, then no wonder you're having trouble. Tired gave you some good advice and you just railed on. Also, there are times in life (especially 3rd year), when you just have to suck it up and take it. You could be totally right nad justified, but when it comes to choosing sides, chiefs and PDs will almost always stick by their residents (unless she is uniformly thought of as a nut job). That leaves you without very many options.

Dude what is your problem?!? This poor girl is having enough probs lets not try to bring her down further. Her attitude is certainly NOT a bad one, but a justified one.

SO medgirl2008, I sympathise with you and know what you are going through. Our OB/GYN rotation was tough, we had one intern that would scut us out 24/7 with hardly any appreciation. We would walk to the photocopy machine and she would scream "walk faster, faster". Luckily there was a group of 6 of us and we ALL complained about her to numerous attendings. The chief of the program was informed and he called her in and she got in $hit. In addition, one of the program co-ordinators (an attending as well) changed the policy that interns could NOT write us evaluations anymore. She promised us that this intern's eval would be discarded. that being said my advice to you is:

1) stick it out for at LEAST 1 week and bring it up to the program co-ordinator. I would by-pass the chief resident b/c they will probably side with their 'co-resident'. Talk to attendings that have SEEN you work hard.
2) try to make allies with other residents and perhaps you can work with them instead. For us we could choose who we wanted to work with, or you can try to switch.
3) If you're worried about your eval try talking to the program co-ordinator, she may drop the DO's eval of you if everyone elses is good.
4) I understand how you feel that she's only a DO, but don't raise this issue again. She might very well have a chip on her shoulder that she never got into an MD program and this is NOT YOUR FAULT! I've seen this before
5) If all else fails talk to your dean
6) the best piece of advice, as long as you pass who cares what you get in OB/GYN b/c ultimately if you're not going into it, no one is going to care what you got! especially if you did well in other clerkships.

GOOD LUCK! PM me... I have some funny OB/GYn stories myself

Not sure if some of these complaints of yours can be misconstrued (i.e. closing doors "in your face" may occur innocuously if you're following her into a conversation you're not privy to for some reason) but in general this sounds inappropriately abusive and out of line. If things don't improve you should talk to the faculty member who is coordinating this rotation and stridently complain until they do something about this lout.

Originally Posted by ocean11

GOOD LUCK! PM me... I have some funny OB/GYn stories myself

I am PMing you for your funny OBGYN Stories. I had some crazy experiences myself :P

-Richie

"Scutting" will always be present whether you want to admit it or not. With that being said, you are being treated unfairly. If this same type of treatment is happening to other classmates, you should all ban together and do something about it. There's something to be said about having numbers in this type of situation. Good luck and remember it's only a few weeks time. Life will get better after OB as many can attest.

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

Day 3 of OB rotation from hell has ended and I'm already severly homicidal. I have the queen OB B*TCH of all time as my resident. Let me just list the things she has done/said in the past 3 days:

1. Yells and snaps at me constantly when I ask her pertinent OB questions.
2. Or, ignores me when I ask her things
3. Makes me rewrite an entire H&P for NO REASON!!!!
4. Questions what I learned in school (no offense to anyone, but she's a DO, so c'mon, who didn't learn what in school?)
5. Strolls in at 6:45 when I'm ready to present at 6 and she TELLS ME to be there at 6.
6. Makes sly comments left and right and puts me down.
7. Closes doors in front of my face
8. Stares me down if I'm laughing with other residents

So, I've decided that I can't live like this for the next 5 weeks. I DON'T deserve this kind of treatment. I PAY MONEY to be educated and I want a good OB experience. I don't want this b*tch to ruin this rotation for me. Those days where med students get scutted and treated like sh*t are over.

So, what should I do? Talk to her? Tell my chief resident? Tell the program director? Tell my school? What? Thoughts please.

I understand your situation and it sucks! I would be careful about who you talk to, the safest choice is the school only if they re-arrange your rotation with someone else...not so if they are going to talk to the director who would then bring down everything on you. On the DO note, I'm a DO and I'm proud of it, but I don't think I'm "better" than my MD friends. Believe it or not we all learn the same stuff and each school has its way of emphasizing various things. Regardless, she is unprofessional in questioning what your education, and you're right..we're paying for this...so you might as well try to get the best out of it.

I think one of the best things we can collectively do in situations like these is to resolve to remember what it was like to be treated poorly as a medical student and never, EVER be that kind of resident when our day comes.

Just wait until you get to Surgery. You'll wish you were back in the company of queen bitches, when you have to do deal with the lying backstabbing weasels that are collectively known as "Surgery Residents".

just laugh it off. Dont take it personally. **** her. u get used to it over time. especially on OB, I thought it was much worse than surgery, b/c all the bitchy women who hate men.

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

Your advice is "don't ask her questions"??? What kind of dim philosophy is that? Oh yeah, that's what I want to do, not ask questions. God forbid I learn something. Oh, and if I want to learn how to do things the way she likes it, how the hell am I supposed to do it if I DON'T ASK HER!!!!!!!

And fyi, since YOU WEREN'T THERE, how would you know if A) there was a reason to do the H&P over and B) if I had an attitude. You have NO CLUE how cordial and polite I act. I already went through surgery and I know how to write a damn H&P. Could it be possible that she just felt like saying "do it over'? Could it be possible that she's just a b*tch? Why would you give her the benefit of the doubt?

Any yes, scutting is over. This is not 1973. Attendings are not like they used to be, neither are residents. Before, an intern never directly talk to his/her chief. They would communicate via an intermediate. Now you see interns blowing off even attendings. Scutting is not tolerated at my school. Maybe you should blow the dust off your brain.

Lastly, I kindly asked for advice from people here. I certainly did not ask for your tired attitude, nor your useless "advice". Blabber somewhere else.

"Don't ask questions" is excellent advice. I suggest you get a nice OB reference book (may I suggest "OB/Gyn at a Glance") and if you have a question refer to the book. Early in third year I asked the occasional question only to be assigned to research the answer and present it to the group the next day. Or, worse yet, to find a couple of journal articles on the subject.

Mama Bear did not raise her cubs to be idiots. Henceforth I kept my cakehole shut and it required the jaws of life to get me to make any comment whatsoever, much less a question. Life is too short to spend any of it working on punitive assignments.

The amount you will learn from asking questions, especially compared to the amount you learn by doing, observing and reading, is insignificant. In fact, some of the posters on this thread have let the cat out of the bag vis a vis questions. People ask them to show interest and get "honors," not to actually learn anything.

Good residents teach and do not punish those who ask questions with extra work.

Originally Posted by cracker69

just laugh it off. Dont take it personally. **** her. u get used to it over time. especially on OB, I thought it was much worse than surgery, b/c all the bitchy women who hate men.

Very true. THe OP needs to grow a pair and stand up for herself. Here's a secret about medical school: There is no penalty for talking to residents like they are your peers, you can insult them with the same facility they insult you, and you don't have to do scut work. (Coffee, food, copies, etc.)

Just say, "No, make yer' own stinking copies."

It works like a charm and they will never bother you again. Of course, you have to do your assigned work, be on time, and otherwise maintain a professional demeanor and attitude.

And I would laugh in the face of any resident or attending who tried to "stare me down."

Originally Posted by DropkickMurphy

Then don't ask her things.


See above.


Chances are there was a reason, even if it was just punitive because of your attitude.


BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one.

Suck it up, deal with it and realize the idea of a "good" OB rotation is borderline ludicrous. It'll be over soon.



Oh, and losing the chip off your shoulder might not hurt. :

your reply to the OP is laughable at best considering that you aren't even close to med school and thus have no idea what she is talking about. Shut your piehole.

Hey MedGirl,
Man, the only reason I figured out you do not attend my school is that we show up at 0500 instead of 0600. I mean seriously there is a woman in our OB dept who fits this description to a T. I guess they have cloned her and put her in OB dept's everywhere, eh? The one at our school is famous for making everyone rewrite H&P's, and scooping up the last 4 min of a vaginal deliveries from the interns whenever she can. Uber beehotch. If you are attractive and happy and she is unattractive you are even more doomed, eh? Anyway...

Not knowing enough about her body language and ego trip, I would say that you have 2 approaches that will get you through:

#1. Kiss her miserable bootay. Tell her ridiculously obsequious things about how you are awed by her ability to know and do so much. She just might fall for this pathetic approach and find someone else to pick on.

#2. If you just can't stomach #1, which is completely understandable, or you try it and it does not work-ignore her and find someone else to learn from. Think of all you could get from now allowing her into your precious head space. Further, she may want you far away because she's just miserable and crabby. If that's the case, realize you can't change her, and avoid avoid avoid.

Also, realize that it won't last forever. Even though it is decidedly hell, somehow the time passes faster than you realize in these rotations.

Good luck, keep us posted, and save your time and energy; don't even respond to those who have not been through this nightmare experience of the OBGYN rotation.

Originally Posted by Panda Bear

Here's a secret about medical school: There is no penalty for talking to residents like they are your peers, you can insult them with the same facility they insult you, and you don't have to do scut work. (Coffee, food, copies, etc.)

I have to say that this is THE best advice I have found about third year yet. And it works.

Originally Posted by Panda Bear

Very true. THe OP needs to grow a pair and stand up for herself. Here's a secret about medical school: There is no penalty for talking to residents like they are your peers, you can insult them with the same facility they insult you, and you don't have to do scut work. (Coffee, food, copies, etc.)

Unless you go to my school, where resident evaluations are directly and explicitly factored into your final grade, including whether or not you pass.

Make sure you have a very firm grasp on your school's grading system before you start following this advice.

Originally Posted by Tired

Unless you go to my school, where resident evaluations are directly and explicitly factored into your final grade, including whether or not you pass.

Make sure you have a very firm grasp on your school's grading system before you start following this advice.

I have to agree, even though I'm usually a big fan of Panda Bear's advice.

I talked back to residents a few times, and paid a very heavy price on evaluations - including remediation. At my school if they tell you to do something, you have no choice but to do it.

Have you read this? It might help.

http://theunderweardrawer.homestead.com/obgyn1.html

Just a word of warning...play nice.

If you dont have anything valuable to contribute to the original posters topic, stay out of it.

If you are a premed looking to stir trouble, move along.

Thanks.

I'm not saying you were not treated badly, but you did spout a whole lot of anger in your posts, which comes off like you might do that at the hospital too.

I'll put out my conflicts of interest statements at the beginning: I'm applying to ob/gyn, but I'm a very sane, easy going person (also non-traditional student) who doesn't fit the "usual ob/gyn" persona listed on SDN.
What I've seen from watching difficult resident/student interaction (not just ob/gyn residents):
- Asking questions - there is a time to ask questions. Most of the time when I've seen that go badly is when the question is either asked at a not good time (like interrupting either a conversation without waiting for a pause or interrupting a thought process with a question that can also easily be looked up). If you make an attempt to look something up first, then ask if you couldn't easily find an answer, it comes accross better and is less likely to get a foul response.
- It is customary at my school for the students to get there at 0530 and the residents to get there at 0630 or so for post partum rounds. The medical student pre-rounds on the patients, writes their progress notes, then presents to the resident. So if the resident told you to be there at 0600, that's likely what she expected. If she told you she would be there at 0600 and didn't show until 0645, that's rude.
- Does the ob/gyn department at your school have a template or format they follow for their notes? Was your H&P that you were asked to re-write in that format? Another point to consider is with the high liability associated with ob/gyn, proper documentation is essential and is highly focused on. Was it legible? Was there a problem or cross-out that shouldn't have been there? I was taught to think of my documentation being projected on a screen in a courtroom before deciding if it was done. Is it neat and complete, or are they going to think I'm lazy and incompetent by my misspellings (thank god for EMRs) and sloppiness? Because of the liability, some ob/gyn departments would rather you redo the note than to correct it, especially if it's handwritten.
- I don't agree with getting the coffee, but I don't mind getting them some if I'm going down for breakfast/coffee myself... because I do treat them as a peer, but with respect (hey, I'm going down to the cafeteria, can I bring anything back?) that's just being polite, that's not scutwork. If it's making copies for rounds or something like that, that is the med student's job at my school.
- Ob/gyn is an environment where the pace changes quickly. Students get frustrated with all the downtime of waiting for a delivery and start complaining. Then they don't pick up the pace when they need to and the residents get frustrated. It can't be a fun job to deal with a bunch of grumpy, complaining medical students any more than it is to deal with a bunch of grumpy, complaining residents.
- I have shut students following me in doors, but always accidentally . (I was a nurse prior to med school, and would forget that the student was always right behind me. In l&d, you don't leave the doors open, so I was in the habit of pulling the door shut behind me every time I walked in, and if the student wasn't talking and just following me around, I would occasionally forget they were there for that split second when I reached for the door). It doesn't sound like that was the case for you, but you didn't expand enough to say what the situation was in which you were excluded from the conversation in a rude manner.

In conclusion, I hope your rotation improves. It sounds like both of you need work on your patience. If it continues to be tense after a week or so, talk to the rotation coordinator. I agree with the above posts about not complaining about being asked to be there earlier than the resident or to redo work. Good luck.

You know it's interesting, but I have not seen one person suggest actually trying to talk directly to this resident. That is where the conflict exists. Avoidence doesn't help the situation and running to mommy doesn't seem very satisfying either. Why not speak directly to this resident as first choice of action. Saying something like, "I want to be a good and helpful medical student, but I feel like I'm being disrespected. I would like us to get along. Would you please tell me if there is problem and what I can do to fix it." It might not help, but at least you honor yourself, tell this resident where you stand, and give her an out that allows her to deal with any percieved conflict, therby helping herself out.

Originally Posted by jdh71

You know it's interesting, but I have not seen one person suggest actually trying to talk directly to this resident. That is where the conflict exists. Avoidence doesn't help the situation and running to mommy doesn't seem very satisfying either. Why not speak directly to this resident as first choice of action.

In theory what you describe is a good idea. However, for the sake of argument let's assume that the resident is, in fact, a jerk. If that's true, direct confrontation will go nowhere. In fact, it is highly likely that such a vindictive person will make life extra special for the rest of your rotation.

And you could argue that you can take this up the chain of command. But one has to realize that all of the attendings, PD, etc. know this resident. They accept and tacitly condone this behavior. And besides, they need the resident. They don't need the student. Unless you have clear cut, incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, the med student will be hard pressed to win a direct confrontation with a resident.

Best advice to the OP: lay low. Read as much as you can, do a reasonably good job on the floor, and avoid as much interaction as possible with the offending resident. Your job is to learn what you can and survive the rotation. Good luck!

Originally Posted by San_Juan_Sun

In theory what you describe is a good idea. However, for the sake of argument let's assume that the resident is, in fact, a jerk. If that's true, direct confrontation will go nowhere. In fact, it is highly likely that such a vindictive person will make life extra special for the rest of your rotation.

I think if you were to say what I suggested, even a jerk would be hard pressed to use this as ammunition to make life more miserable by trying to make the resident's life easier by resolving the conflict. It's not confrontational per se, but merely dealing with the conlfict where it actually exists, while allowing the OP to honor herself. You cannot do anything about jerk, but to not try and resolve the conflict, on some level, let the jerk know it's ok to be abusive. In some ways I see this "be quiet," "suck it up, third year is hard," "study on your own" is akin to telling a rape victim to shut up and enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Tired

Unless you go to my school, where resident evaluations are directly and explicitly factored into your final grade, including whether or not you pass.

Make sure you have a very firm grasp on your school's grading system before you start following this advice.

I didn't say be an ******* or a malingerer. You will pass the rotation. Since most residents are decent people you will probably get high marks for not being a subserviant twit.

Originally Posted by Llenroc

I have to agree, even though I'm usually a big fan of Panda Bear's advice.

I talked back to residents a few times, and paid a very heavy price on evaluations - including remediation. At my school if they tell you to do something, you have no choice but to do it.

Coffee, food, and personal errands are not in the scope of their authority. Of course I'm not advocating blowing them off if they send you down to work up a patient or collect lab values. That's legitimate work.

And you cannot "talk back" to a resident. They are not your parents. You can treat them in the same easy manner that they treat you. "Get your own coffee" is a legitimate statement.

What our residents did at LSU where they got free food was to offer the student an incentive to get their coffee, as in, "Here, take my ID badge and get us both some coffee and some cookies...get anything you want."

Originally Posted by San_Juan_Sun

....In theory what you describe is a good idea. However, for the sake of argument let's assume that the resident is, in fact, a jerk. If that's true, direct confrontation will go nowhere. In fact, it is highly likely that such a vindictive person will make life extra special for the rest of your rotation...

It cannot be done. All the resident will do is alienate his potential ally, somebody who can make his life easier by doing some of his paperwork and covering his ass occasionally. (I never rely on medical students for anything important because if they screw it up, guess who's fault it is?)

He can make life no more special for you than it will be for anybody else.

MedGirl2008,

I was in a somewhat similiar situation to yours, I was harassed and verbally abused by an Ob/Gyn doctor and made physical threats against. I think that sadly some people go into Ob/Gyn because they enjoy hearing women in pain during labor. I was harassed on a DAILY basis like you apparently, and my life was made a living he**. I got some great advice from a physician (who is actually quite famous) and told me that if you are being abused or someone is treating you unfairly you need to first make a journal entry each day of what they do. E.g.

Day 1: My resident Dr. XXXXX humiliated me again in front of a group of students saying that "How did you pass Step 1?"

Day 2: My resident made comments in front of me to a group of residents saying "This third year is horrible." or something to that effect.

You need to realize that your treatment on this clerkship is ILLEGAL (workplace harassment) and could certainly land this perpertrator in hot water. TALK TO THE CLERKSHIP DIRECTOR IMMEDIATELY, AND IF THEY ARE NOT HELPFUL THEN KEEP WORKING YOUR WAY UP THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. State clearly to them that what is happening to you IS medical student abuse. Document EVERYTHING. Have something specific you want to resolve the situation, i.e. a transfer out of the clerkship to a different clinical site where you don't have to be around this resident. If you stay, the resident may have you failed, so that if you complain later it looks like you are a poor worke and just protesting your grade, it is how residents and attendings cover themselves. For you mental health you need out of this clerkship before you regret going into medicine. PM me if you need any help, as I would hate to someone go through what I went through with disrespectful and abusive Ob/Gyn doctors (most aren't , but some are)

Originally Posted by Panda Bear

Coffee, food, and personal errands are not in the scope of their authority. Of course I'm not advocating blowing them off if they send you down to work up a patient or collect lab values. That's legitimate work.

And you cannot "talk back" to a resident. They are not your parents. You can treat them in the same easy manner that they treat you. "Get your own coffee" is a legitimate statement.

I totally agree. Actually I don't ever remember being asked to get coffee or make copies. I've offered to bring back coffee/food if I was getting some, just as I would for anyone else I was working with. The closest I've gotten to scut was actual medical stuff that didn't really need doing (I had a resident who really hated to let us go home and would make us take vitals if there was absolutely nothing else to be done).

Interns and residents are only 1-4 years ahead of you in their training. They know a lot things you don't - but you probably also know things they don't, especially if they are interns. You can respect them as people and listen to what they have to say without participating in the 'hierachy.'

Actually I don't really understand why the 'hierarchy' feeling exists at all. I've been in many work situations where I had to be trained by someone who had been doing it longer, and there was never any feeling of the trainer being 'above' the trainee. Trainer knows the job, trainee is there to learn it; but it's not a status issue. Somehow in medicine there does seem to be a bit of a status issue. I can feel its presence, but I choose to behave as if it were not there.

i feel your pain medgirl. i am on surgery, and i love everything/everyone except this ONE resident. shes a pgy4, and its just her and the intern at this hospital. shes basically bipolar. one day she'll be sooo nice to you and try to be your best friend. then out of nowhere, she'll humiliate you on rounds in front of your peers.

the other day, she totally humiliated the intern, telling him that he was incompetent and she couldnt believe he was 6 months into his internship and still forgetting things on the floor. poor guy is carrying 25 patients!!

shes constantly calling me out on anything and everything that i do wrong, even though i truly believe i'm doing a good job and get good feedback from all teh attendings.

her eval doesnt matter in this rotation, but i wouldnt put it past her to badmouth me or someone else to the attendings. thats how much she sucks



anyway, your situation sounds much more abusive but the only advice i can offer is to try not to focus on her and focus on other things in the rotation (attendings, other students, intern, patients, conferences, etc). really, shes just one resident. pay her no mind. i am trying to ignore my awful resident as much as possible (hard to do b/c we're with her all day). but at least realize when im with her that shes just ONE person, who's high on herself and sucks at life

Originally Posted by ocean11

4) I understand how you feel that she's only a DO, but don't raise this issue again.

Yeah.....I wonder how this resident feels that her whiny med. student is ONLY an MD....

See if some of the other students you're working with think she's acting out of line. If so talk to your clerkship director. Our clerkship directors don't stand for residents who act like this. Teaching is part of their job and our OB director told us explicitly to report residents that don't. I'm personally so fed up with fellow medical students sucking up all the time and letting stuff go. I'm not talking about minor stuff, everyone has a bad day, but we always hear about people who are constantly like this and the faculty doesn't know because no one will stick up for themselves and say something. I had a problem with a resident on surgery and I talked to the director and chief resident that night and they agreed that I was right and they agreed to talk to that resident. People are never going to change if people don't hold them accountable. It's not alright to be like that. There are plenty of residents and attending who never raise their voices and those are the ones who are able to teach you the most.

Originally Posted by The_Sensei

Yeah.....I wonder how this resident feels that her whiny med. student is ONLY an MD....

Nothing wrong with being a DO, one of the fourth year med students on our team is a DO and is brilliant! she teaches us so much! What I mean by my comment is that some DO's still feel the stigma and that may lead to other issues..... personally, I feel that DO's for the most part make great physicians... relax dude!

It seems that sometimes people who are nasty are just "venting" because they were mistreated by THEIR superiors. Nobody wakes up and says "I am going to be an *******." Most people WANT to be liked, WANT to be the cool kid, and want to be respected. That being said, sometimes I find the following things to work:

1. Create an atmosphere with this person so that you are no longer the target when she needs to blow off steam. How to do that? First, be as professional and as good as you possibly can - remove as many excuses as possible for her to insult you.

2. Make it clear that you appreciate having the opportunity to learn from this person. You don't have to be a brown-nosing dork to do this, but pay attention when she speaks without interrupting, and at least give the impression that you respect her higher level of knowledge / training.

3. Be as social as you can when appropriate. It is easier to be an ******* to "random medical student" than it is to be an ******* to "Becky, the girl that I talked about how much we both love knitting".

4. Explore the residents feelings and frustrations if you have an opportunity. If I learned one thing as a former bartender, it is that people LOVE to talk about themselves and their feelings. If you open a door for them to do so, you would be surprised at how fast people will share things with you. For example, if you see her get verbally harrassed by one of her superiors, say "that looked painful" and see if you can get her to open up a bit. Nobody can be a jerk to somebody they have confided in.

5. Accept that scut is going to happen. In fact, it is sorta the deal we make as med students. I do a bit of slave labor even though it isn't my primary responsibility, in exchange, the resident does a bit of teaching even though it isn't her primary responsibility. In fact, if you can get enough of this scut crap done, the resident may be impressed, and more willing to answer your questions and teach you.

6. Just get there at 6:00 am if that is when she wants you there. If she doesn't show up until 6:45, use the time wisely.

7. Just to reiterate - quickly get over the DOs are inferior mindset - you don't want to be judged as "all medical students are crap" and neither do DOs. Give every individual a fair shake.

8. Beer - the great equalizer. If you could just get her to have a beer.

OK.. those are a few of my thoughts. Good luck!

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

Your advice is "don't ask her questions"??? What kind of dim philosophy is that? Oh yeah, that's what I want to do, not ask questions. God forbid I learn something. Oh, and if I want to learn how to do things the way she likes it, how the hell am I supposed to do it if I DON'T ASK HER!!!!!!!

And fyi, since YOU WEREN'T THERE, how would you know if A) there was a reason to do the H&P over and B) if I had an attitude. You have NO CLUE how cordial and polite I act. I already went through surgery and I know how to write a damn H&P. Could it be possible that she just felt like saying "do it over'? Could it be possible that she's just a b*tch? Why would you give her the benefit of the doubt?

Any yes, scutting is over. This is not 1973. Attendings are not like they used to be, neither are residents. Before, an intern never directly talk to his/her chief. They would communicate via an intermediate. Now you see interns blowing off even attendings. Scutting is not tolerated at my school. Maybe you should blow the dust off your brain.

Lastly, I kindly asked for advice from people here. I certainly did not ask for your tired attitude, nor your useless "advice". Blabber somewhere else.

Somebody is pissed off. With a mouth like that, I can see how you and that resident don't get along. From your comments here you are not exactly a shrinking violet. Chances are that you are probably a strong personality and don't want this resident bossing you around and telling you what to do. Bottom line you can either go full out war with her, particularly if you don't care about honoring and show her who the boss is. Or you can try to avoid her as much as possible and hang out with other residents (if you can do this).

Good luck.

You know it's interesting, but I have not seen one person suggest actually trying to talk directly to this resident. That is where the conflict exists. Avoidence doesn't help the situation and running to mommy doesn't seem very satisfying either. Why not speak directly to this resident as first choice of action. Saying something like, "I want to be a good and helpful medical student, but I feel like I'm being disrespected. I would like us to get along. Would you please tell me if there is problem and what I can do to fix it." It might not help, but at least you honor yourself, tell this resident where you stand, and give her an out that allows her to deal with any percieved conflict, therby helping herself out.

I have to agree. First of all, it may actually fix the problem. If it doesn't help and you go to a higher authority, you can at least say you tried to talk to her and resolve the matter privately.

5. Accept that scut is going to happen. In fact, it is sorta the deal we make as med students. I do a bit of slave labor even though it isn't my primary responsibility, in exchange, the resident does a bit of teaching even though it isn't her primary responsibility. In fact, if you can get enough of this scut crap done, the resident may be impressed, and more willing to answer your questions and teach you.

This is very true. However, there is "good" scut and "bad" scut. I often relied on students to help retrieve labs, films, charts, forms, etc. I didn't mind doing those things when I was a student and appreciated the help when I was a resident. I would always repay the favor with lunch or teaching. On the other hand, it is never appropriate to ask students for personal favors or to run personal errands.

4. Questions what I learned in school (no offense to anyone, but she's a DO, so c'mon, who didn't learn what in school?)

You may have some misconceptions or preconceived notions about DO's and she may have picked up on this. During the course of my education I had residents and attendings who were amazing and others who were just awful. Some of the best and worst were DO's and some of the best and worst were MD's. You can't blame the degree and it only makes you seem uninformed to do so.

I got some great advice from a physician (who is actually quite famous) and told me that if you are being abused or someone is treating you unfairly you need to first make a journal entry each day of what they do. E.g.

Day 1: My resident Dr. XXXXX humiliated me again in front of a group of students saying that "How did you pass Step 1?"

Day 2: My resident made comments in front of me to a group of residents saying "This third year is horrible." or something to that effect.

If all else fails, you must document, document, document. Otherwise you'll just come off as a lazy complainer.

The OP said that the attending "questions what she learned in school" and the OP replies with "and she's only a DO.

It sounds to me that the OP has a chip on her shoulder with regards to DO's, not the other way around. There was no mention of the attending saying anything negative about MD's, but rather the knowledge this particular medical student has may not be up to par with what this attending expects.

She is the attending, so she is the boss, if she expects you to know more, then go study...quit complaining about the fact that she is "only a DO" because this woman is practicing medicine and knows a hell of a lot more than you do, so why not respect her position, shut your mouth, and try to get the most out of it as you can.

Maybe the best thing you can do is:
1. first realize that this DO may have even more knowledge because she is a DO and can do additional things that you did not learn how to do.
2. learn that when you are an attending not to be such a b&tch, like this woman is being, even though I have a feeling that it is personalities just like yours that turn into these type of attendings (can you imagine the OP in 15 years when a DO student is rotating with her...whoa!)
3. You are going to be a physician, a physician must deal with all types of personalities in their patients, in their staff, and in their colleagues, starting now will only prove to be a positive for you in the future.

Good luck, and realize that because you went to Harvard med (just an example), doesn't mean that international grad or DO that is actually practicing medicine right now doesn't know more than you now or maybe ever.

Originally Posted by stretch210

The OP said that the attending "questions what she learned in school" and the OP replies with "and she's only a DO.

It sounds to me that the OP has a chip on her shoulder with regards to DO's, not the other way around. There was no mention of the attending saying anything negative about MD's, but rather the knowledge this particular medical student has may not be up to par with what this attending expects.

She is the attending, so she is the boss, if she expects you to know more, then go study...quit complaining about the fact that she is "only a DO" because this woman is practicing medicine and knows a hell of a lot more than you do, so why not respect her position, shut your mouth, and try to get the most out of it as you can.

Maybe the best thing you can do is:
1. first realize that this DO may have even more knowledge because she is a DO and can do additional things that you did not learn how to do.
2. learn that when you are an attending not to be such a b&tch, like this woman is being, even though I have a feeling that it is personalities just like yours that turn into these type of attendings (can you imagine the OP in 15 years when a DO student is rotating with her...whoa!)
3. You are going to be a physician, a physician must deal with all types of personalities in their patients, in their staff, and in their colleagues, starting now will only prove to be a positive for you in the future.

Good luck, and realize that because you went to Harvard med (just an example), doesn't mean that international grad or DO that is actually practicing medicine right now doesn't know more than you now or maybe ever.

This is so amusing to me. You MUST be a DO. I can sense the resentment. C'mon, let's all be honest here; almost all the people who ended up in osteopathic schools is because they didn't get into a MD program. Everyone wants a MD after the name. I don't know one MD who wish they had a DO after their name. I've seen so many patients confused when they see "DO" after residents' names. They always inquire, "What does DO mean". No one ever is confused about the significance of a MD. MD stands for medical degree, a person with a MD is a medical doctor. DOs are "osteopaths". And if most "osteopaths" stayed true to the integrity of what osteopathic medicine is, then they wouldn't pursue competitive MD residencies (like Plastics) that have nothing to do with "manipulations" and whatever it is they do. It proves that they used osteopathic school as their route to get into their desired specialty, because they couldn't get into a MD program initially.
Point of the story, just because some individuals have a chip on their shoulder about their status is no excuse to retaliate against medical students who will have what they do not.

Medgirl...good luck in your future...

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

This is so amusing to me. You MUST be a DO. I can sense the resentment. C'mon, let's all be honest here; almost all the people who ended up in osteopathic schools is because they didn't get into a MD program. Everyone wants a MD after the name. I don't know one MD who wish they had a DO after their name. I've seen so many patients confused when they see "DO" after residents' names. They always inquire, "What does DO mean". No one ever is confused about the significance of a MD. MD stands for medical degree, a person with a MD is a medical doctor. DOs are "osteopaths". And if most "osteopaths" stayed true to the integrity of what osteopathic medicine is, then they wouldn't pursue competitive MD residencies (like Plastics) that have nothing to do with "manipulations" and whatever it is they do. It proves that they used osteopathic school as their route to get into their desired specialty, because they couldn't get into a MD program initially.
Point of the story, just because some individuals have a chip on their shoulder about their status is no excuse to retaliate against medical students who will have what they do not.

hmm...so do you think your previous post brought more or less credibility to your original post....

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

This is so amusing to me. You MUST be a DO. I can sense the resentment. C'mon, let's all be honest here; almost all the people who ended up in osteopathic schools is because they didn't get into a MD program. Everyone wants a MD after the name. I don't know one MD who wish they had a DO after their name. I've seen so many patients confused when they see "DO" after residents' names. They always inquire, "What does DO mean". No one ever is confused about the significance of a MD. MD stands for medical degree, a person with a MD is a medical doctor. DOs are "osteopaths". And if most "osteopaths" stayed true to the integrity of what osteopathic medicine is, then they wouldn't pursue competitive MD residencies (like Plastics) that have nothing to do with "manipulations" and whatever it is they do. It proves that they used osteopathic school as their route to get into their desired specialty, because they couldn't get into a MD program initially.
Point of the story, just because some individuals have a chip on their shoulder about their status is no excuse to retaliate against medical students who will have what they do not.

So..."Lets all be honest here" eh? "Everyone wants an M.D. after their name". I never did, especially given that my family has been involved in Osteopathic Medicine for almost a century. And in my graduating class there were many individuals who fervently chose attending a D.O. institution over
one granting an M.D. degree. They did so for a variety of reasons. Family ties, an appreciation of the Osteopathic angle on Patient care, locale. Your broad knowledge of Osteopathic education, as clearly pointed out by your statement "manipulations....and whatever else it is they do", which I take to mean you have no earthly idea what it is they (D.O.s) do, just a narrow and militant idea of what it is you think they should not be doing.

Your silly notion that D.O.s applying for surgical specialties do not remain "true" to the integrity of Osteopathy is more "fluff" rooted in the "airhead" leve of deep thought. D.O.s were doing thousands of surgical cases before you, your parents and your grandparents were alive on this earth. Surgery has been a bedrock of Osteopathic teachings even before "Flexner" in the early 1900s.


Why don't you admit you know nothing about Osteopathic education and even less what constitutes the "integrity" of the profession before sprouting diarrhea painfully devoid of knowledge of the subject matter you purport to address. By the way, the term "Osteopath" is an archaic term used to describe D.O.s trained and in practice outside the United Staes (in Manual Medicine alone).

I try to research the applicable subject matter before I post anything anywhere. I certainly do on SDN. Research a topic and than scan the post (edit) for inaccuracies is advice you can go to the bank on. I hope I have been of help to you.

gotta agree with medgirl2008.. just the other day a patient was asking me what's a DO. And I really REALLY believe that most (NOT all though) DO students or doctors did apply to MD programs first but didn't get in. I was talking to a DO student the other day who mentioned how most people in her class want to pursue competitive MD residencies but can't because of descrimination by the AMA. In addition, many countries don't even let DO's practice there.

THAT being said, the DO's I've met personally know as much as MD's and are great in what they do (I've only met family practice DO docs). However, if you ask me, I bet MOST would rather have MD after their name.

Oh god...here we go again...

This is so amusing to me. You MUST be a DO. I can sense the resentment.

Actually, you're the one who seems resentful. Why so much anger over someone's degree?

C'mon, let's all be honest here; almost all the people who ended up in osteopathic schools is because they didn't get into a MD program.

Who cares? This statement really makes you seem petty and uninformed.

I have to say, I find it amusing that these types of discussions always occur among STUDENTS. Try starting a discussion like this in a residents forum and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Medgirl2008

This is so amusing to me. You MUST be a DO. I can sense the resentment. C'mon, let's all be honest here; almost all the people who ended up in osteopathic schools is because they didn't get into a MD program. Everyone wants a MD after the name. I don't know one MD who wish they had a DO after their name. I've seen so many patients confused when they see "DO" after residents' names. They always inquire, "What does DO mean". No one ever is confused about the significance of a MD. MD stands for medical degree, a person with a MD is a medical doctor. DOs are "osteopaths". And if most "osteopaths" stayed true to the integrity of what osteopathic medicine is, then they wouldn't pursue competitive MD residencies (like Plastics) that have nothing to do with "manipulations" and whatever it is they do. It proves that they used osteopathic school as their route to get into their desired specialty, because they couldn't get into a MD program initially.
Point of the story, just because some individuals have a chip on their shoulder about their status is no excuse to retaliate against medical students who will have what they do not.

Congratulations. Your ignorance got your thread closed.

No more MD v DO debates in my forum. You want to fight, go somewhere else.