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AFS · 01-29-2007, 09:53 PM

It has been often said that cosmetic vaginal surgery is the final frontier of cosmetic surgery. Obviously our specialty is ultra conservative, but I think that we must be able to embrace this new direction. After all, why should we permit plastic surgeons to perform labioplasties? This is clearly our domain. We know the anatomy better than anyone. We have dedicated ourselves to the complete healthcare of women. Should we dismiss this very important aspect of their care? Whatever we can do to make a woman feel better about herself is worthwhile in my opinion.

After all, we were the pioneers for liposculpturing, and this was in fact taken from us by the more progressive plastic surgery community.

To think that all plastic surgeons receive extensive training in botox or liposculpturing during their training (as I have read in other posts) is truly preposterous. I encourage you to think outside the box and not assume that any cosmetic surgery is strictly the domain of plastic surgeons.

AFS · 01-29-2007, 10:21 PM

I hear from so many patients that they feel much more relaxed vaginally after they have had children. Clearly childbirth is destructive to the birth canal. It is unfortunate that so many women feel that their lack of sexual gratification is a normal process, that must be accepted as a result of having had children. Sexual gratification in the female is directly proportional to the amount of frictional forces generated during intercourse. If there is significant vaginal (and perineal body relaxation) those frictional forces are just not able to be there. From what I have researched, Laser Vaginal Rejuvenation may be a solution.

These same patients also tell me that Kegel exercises just don't work for them as a remedy for moderate to severe pelvic floor dysfunction.

I was hoping to get some input on this from my colleagues in this forum, especially what exactly this procedure entails.

Appreciated.

MeowMix · 01-31-2007, 05:28 PM

I think this is an extremely suspicious post by someone with a commercial interest in this mostly bogus procedure. I've read the advertising literature, and to be honest it sounds like another way to make normal age-related changes into something pathological. Your wording sounds almost exactly like the advertising copy.

AFS · 01-31-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeowMix

I think this is an extremely suspicious post by someone with a commercial interest in this mostly bogus procedure. I've read the advertising literature, and to be honest it sounds like another way to make normal age-related changes into something pathological. Your wording sounds almost exactly like the advertising copy.

Have you ever asked a woman how she feels about these "normal age-related changes" and whether or not they have a negative impact on her sexuality and self esteem? Why is it that so many interventions to improve a man's quality of life (due to age related changes, ie Viagra) are readily available and accepted?

MeowMix · 02-01-2007, 01:32 PM

Look, as a woman, the normal age-related changes of having grey hair and a saggy butt can affect your sexuality and self-esteem, if you want to take them that seriously. You can dye your hair, you can get a butt lift, you can shift your perception of what it means to be sexy. Whatever you like.

Sexuality starts in the heart and mind, not the vagina and the penis. Self-esteem and quality of life come from the same place, not the genitalia.

I don't know where you got the idea that "sexual gratification in the female" is directly proportional to frictional force, but it just isn't correct. If it was, we wouldn't have to spend any time on candlelight, romance, and foreplay. And forget that messy lube stuff, that just decreases the friction.

AFS · 02-02-2007, 11:05 AM

Clearly a woman's sexuality is very complex and definitely does require emotional intimacy. But women are very sexual and also need physical satisfaction to be completely fulfilled with their partners (As a woman you should know that). And to just assume every women is satisfied with changes related to age is a bit shortsighted. You can't assume that every women feels the same way you do.

I doubt you are a clinician (as no doctor would conclude that any procedure is "bogus" just by reading advertising literature. You should try to discern what is the science and what is marketing). I suspect you either only have patients who bark, chirp or meow or you are an unemployed sex therapist.

MOHS_01 · 02-02-2007, 06:42 PM

1. Where did you hear that Ob's were "the pioneers of liposculpture"?

2. Your credibility is seriously compromised when your first post is something like this.

3. If this procedure indeed proves itself to be legit and is something that people want, it will be offered by someone.

4. There is a lot of "snake oil" out there -- and while some industry reps are knowledgable, in my experience their "knowledge" is strictly limited to the regurgitation of their company "spin" on the subject.

AFS · 02-02-2007, 07:54 PM

Dr. Giorgio Fischer, a gynecologist from Rome, Italy, invented the liposuction procedure in 1974.

Dr. Illouz, a French plastic surgeon, made the first purely cosmetic use of the procedure four years later

The rest is history... get all your knowledge straight, then you can mouth off.

MOHS_01 · 02-03-2007, 07:40 AM

Who currently performs "liposuction" in the way that Dr. Fischer (or, for that matter, Dr. Illouz) described????

Fischer did not perform "liposuction" in any form that would be recognized today, and it would more properly be viewed as a minimal incision lipectomy. The procedure that he performed was essentially a D&C of the abdominal fat. This consisted of an oscillating blade within a cannula that literally chewed up and pulverized tissue -- it was a bloody mess with huge blood losses and accompanying fluid shifts. The suction device was a crude attempt at evacuating the destruction that the technique produced. It was both brutal and barbaric -- and many died as a result of the employment of this technique. The "technique" was abandoned before it ever got started due to its unacceptably high mortality rates.

The plastic surgeon that you mentioned fared no better.

Liposuction did not become safe or popular until Dr. Klein developed the tumenescent technique in the mid '80's. If someone is curious as to what specialty Dr. Klein was trained in -- that information is readily available. I'll give you a hint -- it was not OB or plastics...

History lesson over....

MOHS_01 · 02-03-2007, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeowMix

Look, as a woman, the normal age-related changes of having grey hair and a saggy butt can affect your sexuality and self-esteem, if you want to take them that seriously. You can dye your hair, you can get a butt lift, you can shift your perception of what it means to be sexy. Whatever you like.

Sexuality starts in the heart and mind, not the vagina and the penis. Self-esteem and quality of life come from the same place, not the genitalia.

I don't know where you got the idea that "sexual gratification in the female" is directly proportional to frictional force, but it just isn't correct. If it was, we wouldn't have to spend any time on candlelight, romance, and foreplay. And forget that messy lube stuff, that just decreases the friction.

I guess that you missed the similar post on "G-spot" shots.....

DoulaMD · 02-17-2007, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFS

Clearly childbirth is destructive to the birth canal.

Why is it that women's bodies are being seen as defective, do you believe evolution really screwed up? How come men don't get worried about their penis getting stretched out when they get an erection and not returning to its normal shape afterwards? Perhaps women's bodies are not defective, maybe the loss of control is due to the large episiotomies given to many women, or the inability for many women to relax enough in a hospital environment to dilate fully, or maybe it's the drugs given to induce labor that cause too strong of contractions. Why not fix the cause of the problem insted of trying to patch it up later.

OB2B · 02-18-2007, 08:23 AM

Just wanna point out - sexual gratification for many females has a whole lot more to do with clitoral stimulation than vaginal intercourse. While most women also want to get pleasure from intercourse, and provide a pleasurable 'enviromnent' for their partner, what's going on with the clit is generally much more directly relevant than the vaginal friction (or candlelight) if you are talking about achieving orgasm and the woman's gratification from sex.

In regards to labial reconstruction, I read more about this in popular literature than in the medical literature, but it sure sounds like more women are interested for cosmetic reasons than for 'functional' ones. Women talk much more about being motivated to have a labiaplasty in order to look more like the the vaginas they see on display in pornagraphy than any other motivation. The current vogue is that prominant labia minora are out, a nice prominent labia majora is in, so women want to get the minors reduced and the majora plumped. People can do whatever they want, but I think its a little sad to have women succumbing to a societal pressure regarding the best appearance of what is generally a pretty private body part. If having big labia majora within the range of normal is causing your low self esteem and sexual anxiety, you've got bigger problems that no plastic surgery is going to solve. Though, for a model, porn star or prostitute, maybe it could be covered under workers comp - or be tax deductible as a business expense.

As far as OB's doing it, whatever. I don't want to be a plastic surgeon and I'm not so interested in providing what may essentially be cosmetic surgeries. I'm sure plenty of others will see the potential for lucrative procedures and want to do it - same as with botox and selling nuetricueticals and products out of your office. Whatever.

OB2B · 02-18-2007, 08:26 AM

Just wanna point out - sexual gratification for many females has a whole lot more to do with clitoral stimulation than vaginal intercourse. While most women also want to get pleasure from intercourse, and provide a pleasurable 'environment' for their partner, what's going on with the clit is generally much more directly relevant than the vaginal friction (or candlelight) if you are talking about achieving orgasm and the woman's gratification from sex.

In regards to labial reconstruction, I read more about this in popular literature than in the medical literature, but it sure sounds like more women are interested for cosmetic reasons than for 'functional' ones. Women talk much more about being motivated to have a labiaplasty in order to look like the the vaginas they see on display in pornagraphy than any other motivation. The current vogue is that prominant labia minora are out, a nice prominent labia majora is in, so women want to get the minors reduced and the majora plumped. People can do whatever they want, but I think its a little sad to have women succumbing to a societal pressure regarding the best appearance of what is generally a pretty private body part. If having big labia minora within the range of normal is causing your low self esteem and sexual anxiety, you've got bigger problems that no plastic surgery is going to solve. Though, for a model, porn star or prostitute, maybe it should be covered under workers comp - or be tax deductible as a business expense.

As far as OB's doing it, whatever. I don't want to be a plastic surgeon and I'm not so interested in providing what may essentially be cosmetic surgeries. I'm sure plenty of others will see the potential for lucrative procedures and want to do it - same as with botox and selling nuetricueticals and products out of your office. Whatever.

01-29-2007, 09:53 PM	#1
AFS New Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 13	Laser Vaginal Rejuvenation SDN Members don't see this ad. It has been often said that cosmetic vaginal surgery is the final frontier of cosmetic surgery. Obviously our specialty is ultra conservative, but I think that we must be able to embrace this new direction. After all, why should we permit plastic surgeons to perform labioplasties? This is clearly our domain. We know the anatomy better than anyone. We have dedicated ourselves to the complete healthcare of women. Should we dismiss this very important aspect of their care? Whatever we can do to make a woman feel better about herself is worthwhile in my opinion. After all, we were the pioneers for liposculpturing, and this was in fact taken from us by the more progressive plastic surgery community. To think that all plastic surgeons receive extensive training in botox or liposculpturing during their training (as I have read in other posts) is truly preposterous. I encourage you to think outside the box and not assume that any cosmetic surgery is strictly the domain of plastic surgeons.

01-29-2007, 10:21 PM	#2
AFS New Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 13	Laser Vaginal Rejuvenation I hear from so many patients that they feel much more relaxed vaginally after they have had children. Clearly childbirth is destructive to the birth canal. It is unfortunate that so many women feel that their lack of sexual gratification is a normal process, that must be accepted as a result of having had children. Sexual gratification in the female is directly proportional to the amount of frictional forces generated during intercourse. If there is significant vaginal (and perineal body relaxation) those frictional forces are just not able to be there. From what I have researched, Laser Vaginal Rejuvenation may be a solution. These same patients also tell me that Kegel exercises just don't work for them as a remedy for moderate to severe pelvic floor dysfunction. I was hoping to get some input on this from my colleagues in this forum, especially what exactly this procedure entails. Appreciated.

01-31-2007, 05:28 PM	#3
MeowMix Explaining "Post-Call" Status: Resident Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,562	I think this is an extremely suspicious post by someone with a commercial interest in this mostly bogus procedure. I've read the advertising literature, and to be honest it sounds like another way to make normal age-related changes into something pathological. Your wording sounds almost exactly like the advertising copy. __________________ "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't." -- Erica Jong

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02-01-2007, 01:32 PM	#5
MeowMix Explaining "Post-Call" Status: Resident Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,562	Look, as a woman, the normal age-related changes of having grey hair and a saggy butt can affect your sexuality and self-esteem, if you want to take them that seriously. You can dye your hair, you can get a butt lift, you can shift your perception of what it means to be sexy. Whatever you like. Sexuality starts in the heart and mind, not the vagina and the penis. Self-esteem and quality of life come from the same place, not the genitalia. I don't know where you got the idea that "sexual gratification in the female" is directly proportional to frictional force, but it just isn't correct. If it was, we wouldn't have to spend any time on candlelight, romance, and foreplay. And forget that messy lube stuff, that just decreases the friction.

02-02-2007, 11:05 AM	#6
AFS New Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 13	Clearly a woman's sexuality is very complex and definitely does require emotional intimacy. But women are very sexual and also need physical satisfaction to be completely fulfilled with their partners (As a woman you should know that). And to just assume every women is satisfied with changes related to age is a bit shortsighted. You can't assume that every women feels the same way you do. I doubt you are a clinician (as no doctor would conclude that any procedure is "bogus" just by reading advertising literature. You should try to discern what is the science and what is marketing). I suspect you either only have patients who bark, chirp or meow or you are an unemployed sex therapist.

02-02-2007, 06:42 PM	#7
MOHS_01 Junior Member Status: Attending Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,313	1. Where did you hear that Ob's were "the pioneers of liposculpture"? 2. Your credibility is seriously compromised when your first post is something like this. 3. If this procedure indeed proves itself to be legit and is something that people want, it will be offered by someone. 4. There is a lot of "snake oil" out there -- and while some industry reps are knowledgable, in my experience their "knowledge" is strictly limited to the regurgitation of their company "spin" on the subject.

02-02-2007, 07:54 PM	#8
AFS New Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 13	Dr. Giorgio Fischer, a gynecologist from Rome, Italy, invented the liposuction procedure in 1974. Dr. Illouz, a French plastic surgeon, made the first purely cosmetic use of the procedure four years later The rest is history... get all your knowledge straight, then you can mouth off.

02-03-2007, 07:40 AM	#9
MOHS_01 Junior Member Status: Attending Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,313	Who currently performs "liposuction" in the way that Dr. Fischer (or, for that matter, Dr. Illouz) described???? Fischer did not perform "liposuction" in any form that would be recognized today, and it would more properly be viewed as a minimal incision lipectomy. The procedure that he performed was essentially a D&C of the abdominal fat. This consisted of an oscillating blade within a cannula that literally chewed up and pulverized tissue -- it was a bloody mess with huge blood losses and accompanying fluid shifts. The suction device was a crude attempt at evacuating the destruction that the technique produced. It was both brutal and barbaric -- and many died as a result of the employment of this technique. The "technique" was abandoned before it ever got started due to its unacceptably high mortality rates. The plastic surgeon that you mentioned fared no better. Liposuction did not become safe or popular until Dr. Klein developed the tumenescent technique in the mid '80's. If someone is curious as to what specialty Dr. Klein was trained in -- that information is readily available. I'll give you a hint -- it was not OB or plastics... History lesson over....

02-18-2007, 08:23 AM	#12
OB2B Junior Member Status: Medical Student Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 14	Just wanna point out - sexual gratification for many females has a whole lot more to do with clitoral stimulation than vaginal intercourse. While most women also want to get pleasure from intercourse, and provide a pleasurable 'enviromnent' for their partner, what's going on with the clit is generally much more directly relevant than the vaginal friction (or candlelight) if you are talking about achieving orgasm and the woman's gratification from sex. In regards to labial reconstruction, I read more about this in popular literature than in the medical literature, but it sure sounds like more women are interested for cosmetic reasons than for 'functional' ones. Women talk much more about being motivated to have a labiaplasty in order to look more like the the vaginas they see on display in pornagraphy than any other motivation. The current vogue is that prominant labia minora are out, a nice prominent labia majora is in, so women want to get the minors reduced and the majora plumped. People can do whatever they want, but I think its a little sad to have women succumbing to a societal pressure regarding the best appearance of what is generally a pretty private body part. If having big labia majora within the range of normal is causing your low self esteem and sexual anxiety, you've got bigger problems that no plastic surgery is going to solve. Though, for a model, porn star or prostitute, maybe it could be covered under workers comp - or be tax deductible as a business expense. As far as OB's doing it, whatever. I don't want to be a plastic surgeon and I'm not so interested in providing what may essentially be cosmetic surgeries. I'm sure plenty of others will see the potential for lucrative procedures and want to do it - same as with botox and selling nuetricueticals and products out of your office. Whatever.

02-18-2007, 08:26 AM	#13
OB2B Junior Member Status: Medical Student Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 14	Just wanna point out - sexual gratification for many females has a whole lot more to do with clitoral stimulation than vaginal intercourse. While most women also want to get pleasure from intercourse, and provide a pleasurable 'environment' for their partner, what's going on with the clit is generally much more directly relevant than the vaginal friction (or candlelight) if you are talking about achieving orgasm and the woman's gratification from sex. In regards to labial reconstruction, I read more about this in popular literature than in the medical literature, but it sure sounds like more women are interested for cosmetic reasons than for 'functional' ones. Women talk much more about being motivated to have a labiaplasty in order to look like the the vaginas they see on display in pornagraphy than any other motivation. The current vogue is that prominant labia minora are out, a nice prominent labia majora is in, so women want to get the minors reduced and the majora plumped. People can do whatever they want, but I think its a little sad to have women succumbing to a societal pressure regarding the best appearance of what is generally a pretty private body part. If having big labia minora within the range of normal is causing your low self esteem and sexual anxiety, you've got bigger problems that no plastic surgery is going to solve. Though, for a model, porn star or prostitute, maybe it should be covered under workers comp - or be tax deductible as a business expense. As far as OB's doing it, whatever. I don't want to be a plastic surgeon and I'm not so interested in providing what may essentially be cosmetic surgeries. I'm sure plenty of others will see the potential for lucrative procedures and want to do it - same as with botox and selling nuetricueticals and products out of your office. Whatever.