Can I leave the PGY-1 IM catogorical now since I's like to change to Patholgy? The one year credit in IM is not going to be useful for me. Will there be any consequence for doing this?
I guess technically if your PGY1 year and the successful completion of it is not required for your new training program, then yes, you could leave.
However, as noted above, why burn bridges? Medicine is a small field. We had a Prelim resident who did the same - basically got a position in the scramble and called and said she would not be coming in again. Not only did that upset everyone (adding to their call schedule), it was unprofessional...our PD made sure her new PD knew about what he was getting.
Yeah, but so what? ....Your resident was probably laughing all the way to her new program at the impotent fury of your program director. .
Programs are like snooty fraternities in many ways, and do not do well with anything less than a full ego stroking from residents. Brown nosing is a large part of the game, and the MD's in charge of programs have very sensitive egos/// be careful
Brown nosing is one thing, being professional and courteous is another. Leaving in the middle of an interview is rude, period. Regardless of what you think of the program, when you agree to an interview, it is expected that you will behave professionally and complete the interview day. Unless they were being rude or unprofessional to you, I can't think of a reason why your actions would be considered within the realm of professional behavior.
PDs want people who are going to show up, be professional, and complete the job. Finding out you left in the middle of an interview would be a big red flag. To people who don't know you, and for whom this is their first (and lasting) impression of you, it sends a very negative message about you and I can't say I'm surprised you were blackballed, whether you deserved it or not.
It has nothing to do with being clique-ish. It's about sharing red-flag information between PDs, and I imagine it happens all the time.
I have been surprised by how tight the medical community is, how clique-sih. ...At one of the interviews I realized it was not the program for me, I did not feel at home there - and excused myself and went home in the middle of the interview. ...One of the PGY3 residents I know from one of the programs told me that the PD of the program I excused myself from during the interview, called all the other FP PD's in town to black ball me - which apparently was effective.
Programs are like snooty fraternities in many ways, and do not do well with anything less than a full ego stroking from residents. Brown nosing is a large part of the game, and the MD's in charge of programs have very sensitive egos/// be careful
If there truly was something more to your actions rather than just "not feeling right" (ie, the interviewer made racist comments, etc.) then you owe it to yourself to explain this. .
Doowai,
I have heard of others who walked out of their interviews too because of various reasons. So, you are not the first.
FP may not be too competitive for AMGs. But, there is always an FMG who is willing to do about anything to get a spot in FP.
Scramble is going to be difficult for the AMGs who did not match in FP. There are going to be a whole ton of FMGs who are going to inundate the system during scramble for FP. I met some cocky FMGs during the FP interview trail who were boasting USMLE scores in the upper 90's. Some of them were attendings in a different field in their own country and just wanted to come to the US to make the big money.
I wish you luck in the scramble!
fp
Kimberly, I was just getting ready to go to the gym when I thought of one specific regarding the interview I walked away from - the overall tone of the program when I got there was unfriendly, PLUS I did not get invited to the dinner they had the night before.I took the lack of invitation as a very clear sign they were not really interested in me.
They sent it by mail, and when I got home from leaving the interview it was in my mailbox. Perhaps they took my lack of response to their invitation (which was late) personally and that resulted in their cold-shoulder to me. In any event --- too keep this on topic for qlin, do not underestimate the ability of one PD to influence another PD...... it is very much like dating women (except the inverse)..
Anyway, that is all for now. The scramble starts in one hour
Thanks Dr.Cox, I am sure it looks different to you then me, being on the residency side of the fence - so I appreciate your empathy.
I could not white lie as they knew I lived there (here) in town.
Kimberli Cox said:our PD made sure her new PD knew about what he was getting.
aProgDirector said:When you apply for state licenses / privileges, you will need a letter from each training program with which you were associated. A letter stating unprofessional behavior can cause you great harm in the future.
NinerNiner999 said:Do whatever you need to get by, but don't put that mark on your record...
Panda Bear said:Can you imagine any other job where you could get blacklisted for quitting a job you didn't like? The residency contract is not as tight as you folks think, by the way, and you don't sign yourself into indentured servitude by signing it.
Most residency programs will sell you up the river at the first sign of trouble, without regrets, and with no thought of being loyal to you. It is the proverbial dog-eat-dog world. And if your program makes you pull extra call because somebody quits, thats the programs fault and their lack of leadership, not the person who left's fault.
In other words, the whole residency system is unprofessional as it relies, no, depends, on sleep deprivations and sweat-shop wages.
Amen! But have you ever heard of a PD stepping in to pull shifts when a resident is down? No, they pull people off of a pull list, which is fair. But after that they pull people from slow services, or research blocks that are supposed to be protected (depending on the program). Of course, if a faculty member is out for a day a Chief Resident can sometimes step in, which may or may not be fair. "Medical leadership" is almost an oxymoron.Leadership is protecting your subordinates, especially from unfair treatment. Making them do extra call is unfair. It is punishing them for things out of their control. The whole philosophy of the residency system makes me sick.
Amen! But have you ever heard of a PD stepping in to pull shifts when a resident is down? No, they pull people off of a pull list, which is fair. But after that they pull people from slow services, or research blocks that are supposed to be protected (depending on the program). Of course, if a faculty member is out for a day a Chief Resident can sometimes step in, which may or may not be fair. "Medical leadership" is almost an oxymoron.
You don't like your employer? Tough, because if you quit (as you could at almost any other job) you will be blacklisted and won't have a future in the profession. I think it is simply medieval and belongs in the museum right next to Torquemada's torture devices.
This discussion is getting a bit one sided.
I have personally taken call to deal with a resident shortfall.
When my program is down a resident, I try to uncover services rather than pull residents off other rotations, whenever possible.
My point above was simply this: if a resident were to walk into my office tomorrow and quit, I would have no choice but to pull someone to cover. If someone gives me a reasonable amount of notice, I can usually rearrange the schedule to address it. Part of being professional is weighing the effect your actions will have on others.
If the OP is miserable enough that they cannot do their job safely, then patient safety comes first and they should quit or be removed from their position (on leave). I would hope that they would have discussed this with their PD already -- presumably they have been unhappy for quite awhile.
Perhaps I'm in the minority. Perhaps I'm an idealist. Perhaps the poor behaving programs get most of the press. But in any case, the picture being painted is not representative of all programs.
Yes, and I have. However, I need notice to do so. In order to pay residents more than their contracted salary, it has to be "moonlighting" income, and there are legal requirements to do that. You can't "moonlight" from 8-5 weekdays, for example.Would you pay them extra?
Agree fully.Don't make a virtue out of stretching your resources so thin that there is no reserve.
I can see everybody pitching in to cover for a few weeks but eventually a program and a hospital that looked after its people would either cough up some dough to hire somebody to cover or shrink the responsibilities, not increase everybody's workload until further notice, especially since your employees have no recourse but to suck it up.
Agree fullyBut I also know that a lot of things are out of your control too. It's the system, as it depends on overworking residents and depriving them of sleep, that is dysfunctional.
While I agree with pandabear that professionalism is a two way street, why is it the program's responsibility only? There is something to be said for agreeing to a commitment and following through with it. If it isn't working out and the career obviously isn't meant for you, then fine, quit, go do something else. But does anyone really think a program is going to force you to stay if you don't want to be there (let alone be in that field)?
If you really want to change fields, it is going to be a process which involves negotiation and compromise. You will have to find a new program willing to take you and get out of your current one. It becomes a lot easier if you go about it in a planned, professional fashion. I would never recommend to anyone that they jump ship and tell the current program to fend for themselves. Medicine is a small field, yes, and it may come back and bite you. But that should that be your primary reason for not doing it? Hell no. Does professionalism matter to anyone? Why should anyone treat you professionally if you don't deserve it? For those who say that programs deserve this treatment, that may be well and good, but what about personal pride?
I keep hearing about how my generation is the most narcissistic and selfish ever, and I tend to agree with it more every year.
You don't get blacklisted for leaving the job, you get blacklisted for unprofessional behaviour.
And while there are residency directors that just turn vindictive after residents decide to leave, the majority (if given enough time to recruit a replacement for the beginning of the academic year) will be either neutral or helpful.
Today, another one of my techs handed in his notice. He stuck to the period in his contract, he continues to do the excellent work he has allways done. I will gladly give him a reference if one of his future employers calls.
This discussion is getting a bit one sided.
I have personally taken call to deal with a resident shortfall.
When my program is down a resident, I try to uncover services rather than pull residents off other rotations, whenever possible.
My point above was simply this: if a resident were to walk into my office tomorrow and quit, I would have no choice but to pull someone to cover. If someone gives me a reasonable amount of notice, I can usually rearrange the schedule to address it. Part of being professional is weighing the effect your actions will have on others.
If the OP is miserable enough that they cannot do their job safely, then patient safety comes first and they should quit or be removed from their position (on leave). I would hope that they would have discussed this with their PD already -- presumably they have been unhappy for quite awhile.
Perhaps I'm in the minority. Perhaps I'm an idealist. Perhaps the poor behaving programs get most of the press. But in any case, the picture being painted is not representative of all programs.
My corporation had a very strict policy. Unless there was documented gross misconduct or criminal wrongdoing on the former employee's part, the only information we released were dates of employment upon a signed/written waiver from the former employee... If I had done what Kimberli Cox's PD had, I would have been disciplined.
Thank you for all the responses. I am matched to one of the pathology programs. The reason that I like to leave the IM earlier is to prepare the move which involves selling the old house, buying a new house,finding a new school for my two children and etc. I agree with plan that I should give PD some grace period, like 30 days?. I am not sure that how the PD will response. How should I tell him? The truth?
Well, medicine is just not the private sector or the military.f_w,
I (like Panda) have the advantage of having worked in the private non-healthcare sector prior to med school.
First and foremost is overworking the prelim surgery resident.
Had I tried to have my employees work anything even resembling that kind of schedule, they would have walked off the job and across the street into the waiting arms of the competition.
Did you have a contract with him, did you have a non-compete ?I had an employee who accepted a job from a competitor almost literally across the street
As there is no real competition between programs once the resident has matched, there is no way for the resident to improve their lot without falling out as "unprofessional behavior" can be very, very broadly interpreted (you even admit this below).
Forgive me for pointing this out, but you are obscuring the argument. Comparing indentured servants to those who enjoy the advantages of a free market for their services is I think, very misleading.
Actually, he works a 1:2 call schedule, more than I ever did.Better pay per hour and probably per annum.
Far better working conditions (certainly when it comes to hours worked).
We had a few "quitters" this year in my program - (surgery pre-lim). I admired them for moving on with their life and not subjecting themselves to being miserable. All of our residents said the same **** "how un-proffesional, how could they do that us, etc etc". I think a bigger tradgedy is sticking out a residency, or anything else in life, for the sake of someone else rather worrying about your own happiness. I was happy to see the miserable POSs leave they brought us all down with their constant whinning and bitching.I swear, there is no other job where the employees are such slaves and ******* that they can't even quit without people accusing them of unprofessional behavior.
If you want to quit, talk to your PD and give them reasonable (i.e. 60 day) notice.
I have been surprised by how tight the medical community is, how clique-sih. Its worse than fraternity life in college. Last year (2006) I applied to 5 local FP programs, got 4 interviews. At one of the interviews I realized it was not the program for me, I did not feel at home there - and excused myself and went home in the middle of the interview. I then had to drop out of last years match because of failing step 2 ck by one point, but fully expected to have a repeat of last year - aftr I had dropped out of the match I got a handwritten note from one of the FP PD's that he was impressed and wanted me to either try and scramble or apply again the next year (2007) and an email from one of the other PD's saying he looked forward to me applying again in 2007. This year neither program invited me back for an interview - after taking the time last year to write personal mails telling me they thought highly of me.
One of the PGY3 residents I know from one of the programs told me that the PD of the program I excused myself from during the interview, called all the other FP PD's in town to black ball me - which apparently was effective.
So I would not dismiss the fury of a PD as "impotent" until you have 100% signed a contract with another program, and even then once they find out you walked out of a program they may keep a strict eye on you and be ready to dismiss you quickly as a prima donna.
Programs are like snooty fraternities in many ways, and do not do well with anything less than a full ego stroking from residents. Brown nosing is a large part of the game, and the MD's in charge of programs have very sensitive egos/// be careful
But he essentially did nothing different than what you are suggesting is ok...which is releasing the dates of employment. All he had to say (and since I wasn't there I have no idea what was actually said but the following is my understanding) was that she left on March 15 (or whatever the actual date was)--which is 3.5 months early. Its the truth...so I can't see why anyone would be disciplined.
Well, medicine is just not the private sector or the military.
You know what you get if you sign up for a surgery prelim. If you don't want to do it, don't sign that 1 year contract.
Not if they knew that at the end of that limited period will be a six-figure salary for life.
Young corporate attorneys do the same thing. They work 100+ hours for a measly 70k because they know that times will get better.
Did you have a contract with him, did you have a non-compete ?
Residents change programs, they can improve their lot. Your contracts are for one year at a time, if you want to change, you let your PD know and don't sign a new contract for the next year. No harm no foul.
This is different from just not showing up after you found a new job.
I compared professional behaviour in one area with professional behaviour in another. The tech gave the notice that was agreed upon and we will be able to get a locums or possibly a permanent replacement so our patient care mission won't be affected.
Actually, he works a 1:2 call schedule, more than I ever did.
Don't list a program if you don't want to go there.Well, thanks to the match, her options might have been limited. She may well have listed it as a backup and not matched elsewhere.
Why should this restriction only be enforced at the employee's expense?
No wonder he left. Was he hourly?
Don't list a program if you don't want to go there.
Because you signed it.
Hourly at a very competitive rate. For a 2 year degree, he was making more than some pediatricians.
There are some things that residencies really REALLY try to prevent for valid reasons.
1. Quitting - hey, if a resident quits, just quits, then call is left to his or her peers. This REALLY sucks and can cause a lot of problems. Before you think "Hey, I don't have to put up with this bull**** any longer, why should I care?" You are not the only one in the world. How would you feel picking up the slack. In the Marines, when a recruit or Marine fell out of a hump (a really long march with heavy gear) that person got to ride in the truck, but their gear, M-16, heaven forbid their 50 cal, is left to be carried by the remainder of the platoon. Don't be that guy riding in the truck watching your peers who have personal lives just as important as yours, carrying your crap. Also, someone who quits, is likely to quit again. This poses a serious risk to the next program, hence, the heads up call to the PD. How is the next PD to know that if they get under your skin that you won't just quit again?!?!? That's life. I have seen plenty of resident transitions (plastics to neurosurg, surg to rads, psych to peds) and fortunately, all of them were carried out at the end of the year and done so without much difficulty or animosity from their peers...
Good advice, but it doesn't change the nature of the match.
This provision is meaningless and void, as employment is at will. There is no statutory requirement to give any amount of notice on either party. In other words, either the employer or employee can terminate their relationship at any time.
Obviously, as he was making time and a half after 40 and maybe more depending on hours above that and the state laws.
More evidence that residents are underpaid.