This thread will be for the discussion of Post-Bacc and Special Masters Programs. I am currently on the admissions committee for a Special Masters Program and will be happy to answer any general questions about the application process and how these programs work.
Post-Bacc and Special Masters Programs
- Thread starter SMP Adcom
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Sara,
What a school will do will depend on the policy at that school.
Some will look simply at your undergraduate GPA - if it does not meet their standard, they will dismiss your application regardless of any other programs you are involved in.
However, many others will see that you have enrolled in a one-year Masters program and will wait to see at least part of your performance before they decide whether or not to move forward on your application.
Good luck to you!
Nasrudin,
You are correct, any online evaluation of a file is problematic, at best.
By the nature of a Special Masters Program, they offer two distinct services to their students (among others).
1. They allow the student to demonstrate an ability to perform in medical school while also earning solid grades to improve an application.
2. Because the advisors and staff of a SMP have extensive experience and a high success rate getting students into medical school, they can offer valuable, specific advice and insight into the application process.
In your case, you have done a good job since your return to school in demonstrating your ability and improving your GPA. However, your GPA does still fall below the national mean for accepted students. If your MCAT is competitive, my best guess is that you would definitely benefit from a SMP.
Further, with the experience these advisors have, you would realize tremendous benefit in preparing your application for medical school.
When it comes to your question of where to apply to medical school, that really depends on you: What is most important to you?
You can certainly apply only to schools in Boston until you were accepted (or similar areas with strong arts communities). You must realize that doing this could mean that you would delay your ultimate acceptance to medical school by one, or many, years.
Or, if you could work out something else with your wife, you could widen your application and increase the chances that you would be accepted sooner.
Ultimately, my advice is that you apply everywhere and see what happens. If you do, and you get into a Boston area school, you are set. If you apply everywhere, but only get into a school in, say, Missouri, at least then you have the option of going to medical school if you and your wife can make it work. If you don't apply, you have no chance and no choice.
The first thing I would tell you is that as a sophomore, you have plenty of time to get your GPA up and avoid having to do the SMP route all together. I would advise you to drop one of your majors, focus on one and raise the GPA to a 3.6 or 3.7. You do yourself no favors by taking an extremely difficult load of classes and hurting your GPA. Why would you want to add an extra year of school, $40,000-$50,000 of debt and a ton more stress onto the whole process of applying to medical school?
However, if you do find yourself in need of an SMP, you would be advised to apply during the year of the SMP (assuming you did a one-year program.) If you weren't accepted to medical school in that year, you would apply again during the next.
Some SMP's are fairly difficult, others not as much - it really depends on how many openings they have and how many applicants. If you can get a 3.4-3.5 with an MCAT in the 30's, I'd say you would stand an excellent chance of being accepted, as long as the rest of your application is solid as well.
All the programs are good, and I make it a policy not to recommend one program over another. There is a ton of information on the internet and in the Post-Bacc forum here on SDN on individual programs. I would recommend you spend some time researching which is the best fit for you.
And thesis or non-thesis really depends on you, your preferences and what is going to best help you. Honestly, I think you're putting the cart before the horse at this point. Focus on your grades now, and make the SMP irrelevant. I would seriously drop a major and raise your GPA. You have plenty of time to raise your GPA to a competitive level - that is a far better option. Nobody with a 3.3 in their Sophomore year should be planning to need a SMP.
However, if you do find yourself in need of an SMP, you would be advised to apply during the year of the SMP (assuming you did a one-year program.) If you weren't accepted to medical school in that year, you would apply again during the next.
Some SMP's are fairly difficult, others not as much - it really depends on how many openings they have and how many applicants. If you can get a 3.4-3.5 with an MCAT in the 30's, I'd say you would stand an excellent chance of being accepted, as long as the rest of your application is solid as well.
All the programs are good, and I make it a policy not to recommend one program over another. There is a ton of information on the internet and in the Post-Bacc forum here on SDN on individual programs. I would recommend you spend some time researching which is the best fit for you.
And thesis or non-thesis really depends on you, your preferences and what is going to best help you. Honestly, I think you're putting the cart before the horse at this point. Focus on your grades now, and make the SMP irrelevant. I would seriously drop a major and raise your GPA. You have plenty of time to raise your GPA to a competitive level - that is a far better option. Nobody with a 3.3 in their Sophomore year should be planning to need a SMP.
El Camino:
1. I would recommend an SMP program at this point. Getting a 3.4 in your post-bacc coursework is not going to help your case very much. A SMP GPA will be considered separately from your undergrad/post-bacc GPA and if you do well, it could be enough to get you over the hump.
2. There is a list compiled by AAMC which describes all the different programs in general terms. There are also a series of threads in the Post-Bacc forum here on SDN that discusses each program extensively.
1. I would recommend an SMP program at this point. Getting a 3.4 in your post-bacc coursework is not going to help your case very much. A SMP GPA will be considered separately from your undergrad/post-bacc GPA and if you do well, it could be enough to get you over the hump.
2. There is a list compiled by AAMC which describes all the different programs in general terms. There are also a series of threads in the Post-Bacc forum here on SDN that discusses each program extensively.
Sumluck,
You ideally would want to direct this question to the admissions committee of the post-bacc/smp that the pre-dent is applying to. Each program is going to have its own guidelines for how they approach this situation.
I know for our program, we discourage pre-dents, since our program isn't really designed for them, and there are more than enough pre-meds applying already. However, if a pre-dent applies, is qualified and we believe they can benefit from our program, we will give them the same consideration we would a pre-med.
Chicagodoc,
Wow, first things first - take a breath. You really do need to relax - if you have this much trouble handling stress, what are you going to do when you're studying for boards, handling your first rotations in third year, starting your residency, etc?
Learn to meditate or something - life is too short to be this stressed.
You have a shot at something. What that is, I can't say. I don't know how you will do on the MCAT's, I don't know what schools you will apply to, I don't know how you will interview. If you are saying its 2008 or bust, you may set yourself up for a lot of heartbrake. The med school application process can be very random. I've seen great students not get accepted, and students who were average at best gain acceptance.
I think you should consider that if you don't get in this year, it is not the end of the world, and you can always apply again the next year. If you want it, and your stats are solid (as yours seem to be, minus the MCAT's) you have a good chance of getting in eventually.
If you absolutely, positively, no matter what have to get in this year, well... there's always the carribbean and Mexico.
Lovepark,
My best advice to you, since you seem to have a very specific plan for what you want to do, would be to contact the medical schools you are intersted in and ask them what they would prefer to see.
Otherwise, my question to you is, which track do you think would best prepare you for medical school? Do you feel you need to repeat the classes at Temple? While taking Genetics and Biochem would be helpful, the MS will teach you a lot and prep you for med school. Only you know where your strengths/weakness lie. I would assess that first, and then ask yourself which one will best address that.
And as far as how a MS in Biomedicine would prepare you to teach as a physician, I don't really see how it would give you much advantage, but you might be better served by asking a mentor who is actually in the administration of a medical school, since they probably interact with medical school professors more than I do.
T man,
If your goal is to develop research skills - unless being in the program gives you a connection to a research lab that you couldn't have otherwise - I don't see why you would do a program. If you are gaining access to a lab you really want to work with because of the MS, that is a different story.
You can do research easily without being in a graduate program. For instance, you could volunteer in a lab for a year, get great experience (maybe even find a way to get paid) and you wouldn't have to pay tuition all year.
Aladin,
An SMP could absolutely help you, but like you said, you've got some work ahead of you before you can get there.
I'm not familiar with all the minimum acceptance standards at each program, but I believe that 2.75 is the minimum for some, 3.0 for the rest (I would check out the Post-Bacc forum on SDN - there are threads that will address the minimum stats question.) Since you are still in school, you have time to bring your GPA up, but its gonna take discipline. You need, basically a 4.0 or close to it, for the rest of your schooling. Look at your current GPA and figure out what you need to do to get to 2.75. If you can get it up to 3.0, you'll be in even better shape, and with a 36, you would have a great chance at almost any SMP, I would bet.
Once you've brought your GPA up, and you get into the SMP, you will be establishing a GPA separate from your undergraduate one. If you do well there, you will have an excellent chance to get into medical school.
Andrey,
Great question. Thank you.
When I look at an application, the first things I look at are the GPA and the MCAT. GPA has to be above a certain minimum, as well as the MCAT.
I next look at extra curriculars and medical experience. I like to see a person with varied interests that indicate ability to relieve stress and show dedication. I like to see a good amount of medical exposure showing both compassion, as well as an understanding of what medicine today is about - I don't want to accept someone who has no idea what being a doctor is about. If someone is weak in these areas, that's not going to rule them out, but I'll make a note to advise them, if they enter my program, that they need to improve these areas before they apply to medical school.
I'll read the personal statement next, then the letters of recommendation. These can make or brake a candidate - usually someone is applying to an SMP because of some sort of blemish on their app. I want to know about that blemish and how it has changed. I would like the LOR's to explain how the student is better than whatever problem they faced. Again, this will not necessarily rule an applicant out, but good LOR's can rule a marginal applicant in.
Finally, I take a close look at the transcript. What school is it? I will consider a 3.4 from a UC much more favorably than, say, Generic State Community College. How did the student get the GPA? Was there an uptrend? Are there F's or D's? If they retook a class, did they get an A the second time, or only a B (or worse?), How many W's?
Overall, what I ideally want is someone who has an application that demonstrates that this person *should* be a physician, and just needs a chance to demonstrate that they *can* be a physician.
Just seeing your initial stats, without the rest of you application, I can say you would have a very good chance of being accepted to my program.
As far as the list of schools for matriculation, well, that's really up to you. Every school is going to have a different list, and there will be strengths or weaknesses to each one.
If you feel certain you can get into medical school without an SMP, then I would say, don't go - it would be a waste of your money, and if you can get in without one, it could potentially keep you from getting into a school (as you astutely pointed out.) The fact is, while an SMP may not have an overly impressive med school list - it does still have a med school list. Many people with marginal stats find the security of knowing that they will be enrolling in some medical school to be worth it.
I started researching masters programs a little late in the game. As it is already almost May, I realize that many deadlines have already passed. I am still considering applying to several SMP programs. I have checked out the pre-requisites. I have a 3.46 cum GPA and a science GPA of about 3.2 and an MCAT of 27. I do make the cut offs for many programs, but I'm not sure if I'm competitive and I'm not sure if it's worth applying so late. I was given no allopathic interviews and am expecting the last 6 rejects post May 15th and I've been waitlisted for the one osteopathic school I applied to. I know that most SMP programs are rolling admissions so I just wanted to know how realistic it is to apply with the stats that I have when many deadlines are less than a month away!
Your stats, while not outstanding, are not bad. Your GPA is in a good range. Your MCAT could be higher, but it is not low (I'm assuming a standard distribution - all 9's, or no more than one 8.)
I would say you would be at the lower end of the competitive range for some programs, and you should be easily competitive for programs with lower minimums.
Yes it is late in the game, but if you have the money and time to apply, it would be a good way to make yourself more competitive for medical schools. What other options are you considering for your next year if you don't apply to an SMP? If you don't have a better option lined up, why not apply?
Redrabbit,
I understand the panic, but I really want to encourage you to relax. Your MCAT P and B scores are good. Very good. It is your verbal score that is hurting you. You don't mention this in your post, but, are you a native english speaker? I see many immigrants that do poorly on their V score because english is not their first language.
If english is your first language, you may want to look into your test taking skills. There are many things that can effect someone such that they will perform more poorly on the Verbal section than the others. These items are correctible and will allow you to perform much better on the MCAT, and eventually, in med school.
I don't know the average stats for each program, but I know the Post-Bacc forum on SDN has addressed this topic ad nauseum, I would search some threads there.
Please let me give you a little perspective - you don't want to "waste any more time" and I certainly understand that concern. But if you've only been out of school for one year, you are still very young. You're going to find when you get to medical school that there are a lot of classmates in their late 20's, some in their 30's, and some even older than that. One or two years post-undergrad is not that long. The end result is going to be the same - you will become a physician.
If your May MCAT score is similar to your original one, do yourself a favor and look into your test-taking skills, or some other program to help you on the Verbal section if you are an ESL. That is what is holding you back.
Dear SMP Adcom,
Thanks in advance for your help! So, this year I have applied to a few SMPs but looks as though I am on the waitlist for the majority of them. Therefore, I realize that this process may play out well into July or August. Would you advise that I hold off on applying (probably July latest) until I receive news of an acceptance so that I could add it to my application this year? Also, my stats are as follows: cum: 3.4 science: 3.2 mcat: 29. Based on these numbers, in *general*, do you think I can still hope to be pulled off the waitlist (I applied to EVMS, Georgetown, and U. of Cincinnati and will turn in my Drexel application soon)? Lastly, I was wondering if you would recommend that I retake the MCAT in june (POSSIBLY july), if I am planning on applying to medical school this year. Thanks again!
I can't speak to individual programs, since that will depend on their admissions committees and your overall application. However, your numbers overall seem to be fairly competitive with other accepted applicants to these programs.
Regarding applying, if you do not plan to apply unless you get into an SMP program, then yes, you might as well wait. However, if you are going to apply anyway, you should get your application in as early as possible. You can always notify schools after you have been accepted that you are going to attend an SMP.
Retaking the MCAT depends on a few factors. If your MCAT is an older exam, then you will need to retake it anyway, since it will expire soon. You also need to ask yourself honestly what your chances are of significantly improving your score. Unless there is a reason to suspect you should do better, it is also possible that you could lower your score, and a 29 is not bad. Finally, you have to look at the timing of taking the exam and the SMP programs you have applied to.
Statistically speaking, an MCAT score has been shown to be a better predictor of eventual Medical School success than has GPA. So, if I were looking at applicants, I would take the one with the mid 30's MCAT over the 4.0 and 29 MCAT. However, it is important to note that I don't work on a medical school admissions committee, so my opinion is quite limited.
You also have to ask yourself how realistic a 34 is. Again, statistically, that score is in the top 10th of all test takers, if I remember the numbers correctly. And, even with that score, if your GPA is low (and a 3.4 is, compared to other matriculated med students) it may not be enough.
My thoughts would be that if you could do an SMP and do well, you will demonstrate your ability to handle a medical school courseload. That, along with the 29 would likely be enough to get you into medical school (esp with strong LOR's and good experience.) When you finish the program, if you felt you needed to, you could always retake your MCAT then. You would not need much time to study, since you had basically been studying for it all year.
I think to answer the question about how MD med schools view DO SMP's, you may want to ask an MD admissions committee member. I would guess that they would probably view it in a similar light to an equally competitive/organized MD SMP program.
Your question seems to ask if the SMP program would find any value in you doing well in their program. I suppose that any student who does well in a class reflects on the program, especially if that student does go on to medical school and does well there as well.
Question 1 - It is my policy to not respond to any questions about specific programs. Sorry. I'd recommend that you try to find someone at Penn that you can contact about this question.
Question 2 - this might be better directed at a medical school member, but I'll take a stab. For upper tier schools, with an undergrad 3.17, you're probably not going to be competitive in the year of a post-bacc/SMP. The following year, with a 3.8-4.0, I'd say you'd have a chance of being competitive. For mid-tier, I'd think anything over 3.5 or so, and 3.3 or above for lower tier.
Question 3 - Before you apply in 2007. Seriously. This is something you should figure out for yourself. When does it make sense it your schedule? When will you have had enough time to study (either through classes or on your own.)
Question 4 - I would definitely recommend you find a personal mentor who is familiar with your application and can speak to the program you are about to enter. They will be able to give you the most effective advice.
As far as I know, most SMP programs advise their students to apply to medical schools during the course of the program, so the answer to 1 is yes.
A foreign MS is not a minus, but how much of a plus it will be depends on the school you are applying to and the person reading your application. If the program is well known and has a good reputation, then the MS can strengthen your application. If the person reading your application is not familiar with your program, or is familiar and does not hold it in esteem, then it likely will do very little for you.
The burden will be on you, as the applicant, to demonstrate in your application how that program has prepared you for medical school and why it demonstrates your ability to be successful.
If you are able to raise your GPA to a 3.3, I think that will be fine for most SMP's. Especially with the kind of uptrend on your transcript that you will need to achieve that GPA.
If you were to apply to SMP's, the thing that might cause you some trouble is that MCAT score. 27 is not bad, but it is the minimum acceptable level for many programs. You might have difficulty getting into some programs, while you likely will be fine for many others.
So, if you were going to make any change to your application to make you more competitive for a SMP, I'd say improve your MCAT. However, you likely will not need to do that. With a 27 and a 3.3 (and a solid application otherwise), I'd guess that you will get into at least one SMP.
1. The C does look horrible, especially in a post-bacc. The advice I would give (and another committee member might say something different) would be to move forward. Figure out what caused you to get the C and fix it. Then do good coursework for a good period of time (I'd guess a year) that demonstrates that you've fixed the problem. By "demonstrates" I mean nothing lower than a B, and a heavy influx of A's.
2. I'd say you should be volunteering now. You want to volunteer for a couple reasons. One, you want to show that you have been exposed to medicine and you understand the career choice you are making. Medical schools want to know that you're not making a fly-by-night decision. Second, you want to demonstrate your committment to the greater good and to service. You can talk all you want about your character and why you want to be a doctor, but actions speak much louder than words.
3. I don't know specifically how PA's play a role in Oncology. You'd probably want to find a PA who's available to answer questions and ask him/her. If you are having difficulty performing in your Post-Bacc, however, PA may be a route you want to consider.
4. This is a problem that is nationwide. There are hundreds of pre-med advisors. Many of them are very good. Some are not so good. Most of them are vastly over-worked. All of them are good-intentioned.
The only way to find a mentor is to ask around. Talk to people you know who have been successful. Who helped them? Talk to your professors. Meet them in their office hours. Build a relationship. If you begin to do volunteer work, talk with the doctors you meet there. Finding a mentor is simply about making connections with as many people as possible until you find someone who is willing and able to help you, whom you trust.
5. While it doesn't look bad to take one class a semester, it is not very impressive, either. Look at it from an admissions committee's viewpoint. Who wouldn't do well in a class if it was the only one they were taking? And if someone was struggling while only taking one class at a time, how are they going to handle the courseload of a medical school curriculum? I'd advise you to take more classes than just one at a time. My guess is that you are probably working to support yourself while you attend school. That is certainly more impressive than simply taking one class at a time and nothing more. However, if you want your application to be as impressive as possible, you really want to take a tougher courseload if there is any way you can arrange it.
6. To an adcom, my guess is it will not be as impressive. Community Colleges typically have lower admissions standards than a University and they typically are nowhere near as competitive. This makes it much easier to get an A. Therefore, a student with a 4.0 at a CC is not as impressive to an adcom as a student with a 3.6 at a university. Again, keep in mind that I am not on a med school adcom, this is simply my opinion. I'd try to find a way to finish your courseload at Hunter, if you can. Of course, if staying at Hunter is going to guarantee you get B's and C's, then you might as well get A's at a CC.
I think with a 3.1 and 28, you are exactly the sort of candidate who will benefit from an additonal program.
You would probably be better served asking your question to the medical school admissions members here on SDN.
I would guess that they would prefer to see you in medical school class immersion programs - SMP's.
It would seem to me that taking a post-bacc that largely just repeats classes you've already had won't do you much good. Since it is a post-bacc, it will average into your existing GPA and will not move it much. Plus, if you do well in a class you've already taken, what does that demonstrate to a committee, really?
If you do well in classes you have never had before, and they're medical school classes to boot, well, that shows clearly that you would thrive in a medical school environment.
As I see it, currently, your biggest obstacle to matriculating at a med school is your MCAT. Low-20's is generally just not going to cut it. I would focus first on how you are going to raise that score. An informal Post-Bacc could go a long way towards giving you the information you need to do better. Just make sure you'll be able to register for the classes you will need. Many informal post-baccs do not guarantee seats in classes for their students.
With a low 20's MCAT, you may find it difficult to get into any formal Post-Bacc or SMP. You really need to get that score up.
Alternatively, if you do not want to do that, you can always consider the Carribbean, like you said, or possible DO schools (depending on how low that low-20 is) some DO schools are willing to overlook a poor MCAT if the student demonstrates their ability in other ways.
If your MCAT is keeping you from being successful in applying to SMP's, it likely is also going to keep you from being successful in applying to medical schools, even with graduate courses under your belt. My best advice would be to work hard on improving your MCAT score.
Likely you will still need a year of SMP or post-bacc work after that, but I do believe that path will be your best shot at getting into medical school.
In your case, I would think a formal Masters program would be more useful. You have an established undergraduate track record in a science major with a poor GPA. A Masters program will allow you to establish a separate GPA.
If you take the MCAT, do well on that and then perform well in a Masters program, you would have a very good chance at getting into medical school.
BTW this thread is friggin awesome. So here's my question. When applying to SMP's, how forgiving are these programs of terrible grades like a few D's and 2 F's in your undergrad? While in college I was simply taking classes so I could graduate and get the heck out of there. I didn't care about doing well for several reasons. My priorities were all screwed up, and I had no intention in going to grad school, let alone medical school. go figure. The weird thing is I got some of these D's and F's while getting A's and B's in the same semester, in harder classes no less. I got a mostly A's and B's in my 400 level Econ classes which were no picnic, but because of a lot of the other grades I wound up graduating with a 2.61 gpa.
Since then, I went back to school to complete my pre-req's. So far I have A's in my pre req's. This semester I wound up with a 3.9. I am done with Chem, I am taking BIO I and II this summer and then Orgo/Phys I and II next year along with another class just to have close to 12 credits. I have been working in an ER for 1 1/2 years now, I have made many contacts, I have 100+ volunteer hours at HUP, I plan to shadow this summer and next year and maybe get my EMT this summer. My Chem teacher was so impressed by my enthusiasm this semester that they asked me to teach a Chem I lab in the fall.
I have been trying very hard to make up for my past mistakes, and I am afraid that things like D's and F's will keep me out of med school and even SMP programs no matter what I do. Will these things doom me for life, or can I redeem myself? Be honest with me, I can take it.
Your overall GPA is going to hurt you. Many SMP's have a minimum cutoff of 3.0, and some have a cutoff of 2.75. If your post-bacc has gotten you over 2.75, you now are potentially competitive for SMP's.
Your performance in your post-bacc is key for getting into an SMP. D's and F's always look bad, of course, but if you can demonstrate that you have matured, and changed whatever factors caused you to do poorly originally, they can be overlooked. Your current performance shows that no matter what you did originally, you are now a different, focused student. That is what many of these programs are looking for. Keep up the great work, and you will help yourself considerably.
The next thing you need to do, is focus on your MCAT and do well. If you can get a good score that demonsrates strong ability (I'd say, in the 30's puts you in a good place.) Then combined with your post-bacc, your D's and F's will be much less significant.
You're in a bit of a gray area. Your scores are not terrible. They are within the lower range of the average accepted students. It is difficult to say what is really holding you back. A better MCAT certainly would help - if you realistically can score a couple points higher, it might be worth making that effort.
Regarding your GPA, I would say that either option is going to work for you. Your GPA is high enough that you don't necessarily need a full SMP. A full-time post-bacc program can raise your GPA from .1-.2 points, depending on how many units you have, how many you take, and how well you do. A GPA of 3.6 puts you right in the middle range of accepted students.
An SMP will be more intense and carries more risk (if you do poorly, you will really hurt your chances of acceptance) but it will likely help you a bit more. If you do well, you will have a separate GPA for the med schools to consider.
I don't know if you have an uptrend or downtrend towards the end of your undergrad, but that would also affect your decision. If you have a downtrend, and you can calculate that you can reasonably raise your GPA, then a Post-bacc may be your best option. If you have an uptrend already, then you may just be best off with an SMP.
Dear SMP adcom, (i apologize in advance for the long post)
I graduated from UC last year with a general Bio major without really knowing what i wanted to do with it. I've always had an interest in the medical field but never seriously thought about it. So, with lack of planning ahead, i pretty much wasted my college life. I did have a reason but whatever the reason is, it can't be used to explain 5 years of my poor academic work. I don't wanna waste time regretting about my past. Instead, I want a second chance to pursue a medical career. BUT my grades are very poor, even for SMPs. I really don't know what to do at this point.
Ok..here's my stats - (i've got a lot of work to do)
- cum GPA 3.0 & science GPA 2.5
- no EC & no science related job experience
- Going to take MCAT in Sept.
(but given that i get 30+, what are my chances?)
Questions:
1) SMP pre-reqs:
Math reqs -I have AP credits for Calculus both AB/BC so i
only have 1 qt of college math. Is that ok?? Or do i need to
take it again??!
English - I took 1 semester of English at a community college and
1 qt of English at UC which fulfilled my GE. But the problem
is the class i took at my college was only offered pass/no pass.
(it isn't now, but it was back then). I should take another
semester of english?
2) Low GPA:
Should i take more upper-division science classes at a Cal State college
and improve my science GPA or Could a high MCAT score compensate for
my low science gpa?? or both???
3) I read one of your posts and you mentioned that getting good grades in
State college is not that impressive. So then, should i take more upper-
division courses at another UC???
4) I'm going to start volunteering at a hospital soon, but im also thinking
about working as a surgical tech. I have a huge interest in surgery and i
thought working as a tech would give me an opportunity to get hands-on
hospital experience. What do you think? Good or Bad idea?
ANY, any advice would be very helpful for me right now. Thank you very much for your time!!
1. I can't comment on particular school's pre-reqs for their SMP. I would recommend if you are concerned about whether your credentials qualify, contact them directly.
2. A high MCAT score can definitely offset your GPA. You want to balance two options - taking some time to do courses at an undergrad/post-baccalaureate level and just going for the SMP. If you have over a 3.0, you already qualify for all the programs I can think of. With a good MCAT, you probably don't need the post-bacc classes. If your MCAT is not as strong, or if you don't really have a strong uptrend in your classes, you probably would want to consider taking classes (and doing VERY well - that is key) to demonstrate that you have corrected whatever issues you had.
3. I don't believe I ever said that good grades in a state school is NOT impressive. I think I said that getting good grades in a school with a reputation as a competitive school is more impressive. You need to look at it on a school by school basis and use common sense. If you can get into a competitive school and do well, then do it. If you can't get in, or don't think you would do well, then go to a less competitive school and do well there.
4. I think that would give you hands-on hospital experience, yes. That sounds like an effective way to spend your time.
Percentages of students accepted really varies by program. You do not mention which school you got into (nor should you) but I would contact them and ask, historically, what their number is.
With a 3.5, 31, you are not that far from being statistically competitive. A post-bacc could help, but realistically, you could do well for a year and raise your overall only by .1, and your BCPM by .15 (if you were a science major in undergrad). In an SMP, you would establish a separate Masters GPA that would clearly demonstrate your ability.
My advice would be to take the acceptance and do the SMP. You likely will get good advising on the rest of your application as well, and that can only help you.
You definitely have some work cut out for you to correct that GPA, but it is doable. You can take classes at any four year institution. I would recommend trying to: 1. finish any pre-reqs you have not already taken, and then 2. take upper-division science courses that you have not yet taken. The important things are to raise your GPA and establish at least a year of good, solid coursework with mostly A's and a few B's (at most.)
I don't know which school has what cutoff (you can probably find that at the AAMC link to post-bacc and SMP programs, or in the Post-Bacc folder on SDN) but I'm pretty sure that many of them are 2.75. So, if you can raise your GPA just a bit, you should be eligible to get in.
On a slightly different note, your post seems to suggest that you were not a pre-med major in undergrad. If that is the case, and you have not yet taken the MCAT, there are many official Post-Bacc programs you might qualify for that will allow you to be accepted directly to a med school as long as you maintain certain minimum GPA/MCAT numbers. Check the AAMC list, or the Post-Bacc folder on SDN for more details.
Generally, a person with your stats should be helped with an SMP, as long as you do well. That's not even considering that doing an SMP should help you do better on the MCAT, if you needed it as well.
a 29 MCAT is not a bad score. It was good enough to get you three interviews (along with the rest of your app) so I don't think that is what would be holding someone with your stats back. If anything, at this point I'd say your GPA is a little weak.
An SMP could definitely help you with that.
The bottom line is, identify the weakest part (or parts) of your application and choose a plan of action that will address it. As you have described it, your GPA is a little low (although not critically) and your MCAT *could* be higher (although it really does not need to be.) To me, it seems that an SMP would be the best route to address both those issues, in order of importance.
a 29 MCAT is not a bad score. It was good enough to get you three interviews (along with the rest of your app) so I don't think that is what would be holding someone with your stats back. If anything, at this point I'd say your GPA is a little weak.
An SMP could definitely help you with that.
The bottom line is, identify the weakest part (or parts) of your application and choose a plan of action that will address it. As you have described it, your GPA is a little low (although not critically) and your MCAT *could* be higher (although it really does not need to be.) To me, it seems that an SMP would be the best route to address both those issues, in order of importance.
Along the same vein, how successful would an SMP be for someone like me. I have a 3.4 (both sci and total) and a 29 MCAT. I got three m.d. interviews this last cycle (all waitlists) which I think are in large part due to the rest of my application being well rounded. I want to know what it takes to get an outright acceptance. I've been accepted to a strong SMP and I'm debating between doing that or taking a year off, continuing to work in research (maybe getting a publication or two out of it) and retaking the MCAT. If I were to retake the MCAT I would shoot for a mid 30's score (I didn't study that hard last time). I am totally at a loss and don't know what the best route is for me. I'm concerned that if I go to the SMP, and do well, my old stats will come back to haunt me. This SMP offers interviews to people who do well in the classes, but I've heard that it isn't always as simple as that. My suspicion is that they do, in fact, reconsider your undergrad GPA and MCAT a little more than they let on. I have also heard from SMP-ers that they wish they had retaken the MCAT because people with more acceptable MCAT scores were faring better.
I would really appreciate the help/advice. I have no idea what to do next year.
I can't comment on the financial aspects of a particular program. I woudl recommend contacting someone at that school and asking that question of them.
I really don't know your application. It is next to impossible to give specific advice to a person about their particular situation, since I don't have everything in front of me.
I'd say that if your GPA is slightly lower now because of your Spring grades, that will hurt you slightly in applying next year. Doing well in an SMP or a post-bacc would rectify that.
However, your stats overall are fairly good. You're in line with most competitive applicants. You may simply need to rework your PS and your EC section. I would say that you prob don't need an SMP or Post-bacc, but they would not hurt you, as long as you did well.
I really don't know your application. It is next to impossible to give specific advice to a person about their particular situation, since I don't have everything in front of me.
I'd say that if your GPA is slightly lower now because of your Spring grades, that will hurt you slightly in applying next year. Doing well in an SMP or a post-bacc would rectify that.
However, your stats overall are fairly good. You're in line with most competitive applicants. You may simply need to rework your PS and your EC section. I would say that you prob don't need an SMP or Post-bacc, but they would not hurt you, as long as you did well.
I don't know exactly how med school committees work, having not been on one myself, but I can tell you what I've seen in applicants.
If you are *certain* that you would do better at a different school, I would consider transferring. Doing a post-bacc, you don't want to come out with 3.3. However, this is where it gets sticky. If you get an interview after transferring, what are you going to say when the questions comes up about why you transferred?
You're going to need a legitimate reason, not just "I wanted better grades."
So, if you don't have a legit reason, I'd stay where you are and do everything in your power to get that GPA as high as you can. If you have a legit reason, I might consider transferring.
If you are *certain* that you would do better at a different school, I would consider transferring. Doing a post-bacc, you don't want to come out with 3.3. However, this is where it gets sticky. If you get an interview after transferring, what are you going to say when the questions comes up about why you transferred?
You're going to need a legitimate reason, not just "I wanted better grades."
So, if you don't have a legit reason, I'd stay where you are and do everything in your power to get that GPA as high as you can. If you have a legit reason, I might consider transferring.
Your stats are on the edge of being average. Your GPA is solid, your BCPM could be better (and that could be hurting you a little) and your MCAT is solid.
I think doing well in an SMP, you will likely have a very good chance to get into medical school, but you could very well do fine on your own without one.
Unfortunately, you are in a grey zone and the best advice I can give you is to talk with people who know you, whom you trust, and see if they think you can be successful without an SMP.
There is not enough information here for me to give you valid advice.
However, the fact is, if your GPA is that low, a post-bacc may not be enough to help you.
Generally speaking,
A one year program in biomedical sciences is going to be a graduate program, taking graduate classes in the sciences.
A SMP will be a graduate program taking some, or no, graduate classes, as well as classes with medical students.
The advantage of an SMP is that it will be a much more direct comparison to how you would perform if you were in medical school.
The advantage of a biomedical sciences program is that you can use the degree in a greater variety of ways when you are done.
The first thing I would do is consider focusing very hard on your Sr yr. Your current situation is not unsalvageable.
If anyone does not need to take an SMP (or post-bacc) I think they should avoid it. An SMP or post-bacc are very useful tools, but they are expensive and take a lot of focus. If you can improve your application now, before you need to do these programs, that would be a much better option.
Suggestion: calculate how earning a 4.0 would raise your GPA. Yes, I know a 4.0 is very difficult. However, the effort to earn a 4.0 is the same type of effort you are going to put into an SMP or post-bacc anyway. Do it now. If you could demonstrate a year of strong grades in your senior year, and raise your GPA, you might be successful without those programs. If dropping the double major or taking relatively easier science classes would assist, I would *absolutley* do it.
Now, about the rest of your post. You say that your grades are the weakest part of your application. If that is the case, then how would doing a year of volunteer work help that?
However, you say twice that you are feeling down about your situation. You may need that time off to refresh yourself. It may be worth considering taking a year off and doing the volunteer work, like you suggested, and *then* doing a post-bacc or SMP if you need it. You don't want to go into an SMP/Post-bacc or med school feeling burned out.
Finally, as I noted, you mentioned twice that you are feeling down. It is possible that your grades are poor because of your mental state and not the other way around. You may want to consider seeing a medical professional and being checked for depression. If that is the case for you, rectifying that could go a long way by itself in fixing your grades.
Hi! Thanks, mentors, for taking the time to do this
Here is my question:
I have been accepted to two programs-- a very prestigious post-bacc program, and a very presitigious special masters program. Both schools have incredible reputations.
I have a 2.98BCPM, 3.85AO, 3.35 Overall from a top UC; 30SMCAT. I'm published, have lots of work, research, leadership, extracurriculars, international experience..
I've done a lot of reading, a lot of talking with people, and I'm still having a tough time deciding which school to go to.
My goal is to get into the best med program I can, entering no later than Fall 2010. Thus, my goal is to raise my GPA as high as I can. I feel I can best do this by going to a post-bacc program, but reading the forums, it seems creating a separate masters GPA should be a significant consideration. The downside would be the higher risk of attending a special masters program.
Help!
I would suggest calculating how high a solid (3.8 or higher) post-bacc GPA would raise your overall and BCPM GPA.
If they won't be raised to competitive levels after the program, I would go the SMP route.
The one advantage you would have doing the post-bacc at this school is you would have the chance to meet some of the professors who are involved in the medical school and perhaps get their help in being accepted. Beyond that, you're probably correct that doing a post-bacc there or somewhere else will not make much difference over all.
Saying which is a better option on a forum such as this. This decision is something you should talk over with a medical advisor who knows you, your statistics and where you will likely best succeed.
Overall, my feeling is that if you have a GPA that is 3.4 or below (and 3.4 is iffy - there is a lot of gray area here) and a decent MCAT, you probably will benefit more from a SMP than a Post-Bacc, since a Post-Bacc will likely only raise your GPA by about .1 point.
That is extremely generic advice and will differ greatly from person to person - you need to talk with someone who knows you and your situation.
Saying which is a better option on a forum such as this. This decision is something you should talk over with a medical advisor who knows you, your statistics and where you will likely best succeed.
Overall, my feeling is that if you have a GPA that is 3.4 or below (and 3.4 is iffy - there is a lot of gray area here) and a decent MCAT, you probably will benefit more from a SMP than a Post-Bacc, since a Post-Bacc will likely only raise your GPA by about .1 point.
That is extremely generic advice and will differ greatly from person to person - you need to talk with someone who knows you and your situation.
When you apply to med school, AMCAS will calculate your GPA and provide an overall undergrad GPA, a Post-Bacc GPA if applicable (and this will be added into your overall undergrad) and a graduate GPA.
If you do a Post-Bacc, it will be shown as a separate GPA, but most medical schools will look at your overall first. So, if your undergrad GPA is low enough and taking post-bacc classes will only raise it by .1 or so, that's not going to help you that much.
On the other hand, a SMP will be calculated as a completely separate GPA (and so not weighed down by your undergrad) and it is in competition against medical students, so even if your GPA is something like a 3.5 (which is not impressive in an undergrad setting) that would put you in the top quarter of most med-school classes and that is very impressive.
If you do a Post-Bacc, it will be shown as a separate GPA, but most medical schools will look at your overall first. So, if your undergrad GPA is low enough and taking post-bacc classes will only raise it by .1 or so, that's not going to help you that much.
On the other hand, a SMP will be calculated as a completely separate GPA (and so not weighed down by your undergrad) and it is in competition against medical students, so even if your GPA is something like a 3.5 (which is not impressive in an undergrad setting) that would put you in the top quarter of most med-school classes and that is very impressive.
I'm sorry, but I make it a point to try not to comment on specific programs. My recommendations would be to post this question in the Post-Bacc thread here on SDN, or to talk with a pre-med advisor who knows you, or with an admissions counselor for a school you are interested in.
First of all, I'd finish strong at school and get that MCAT handled.
with an uptrend like you describe, and a strong senior year, you could possibly reach 3.5 or higher before you graduate. 3.5 is a little low, but it is within the range of accepted medical students. With a solid MCAT, you very likely would not even need a SMP. Just make sure that some of your senior classes are upper-division science classes to help raise that BCPM - maybe not to an "acceptable level" - but certainly higher than it is.
The next thing is when to take the MCAT. If you're going to be applying to med school in this cycle, you really should take the September MCAT at the latest. Schools will not consider your application until you have that score. By January, you will be out of competition for many schools out there. With that said, you do not want to take the MCAT until you are prepared. My point only is, work hard to be prepared for September, if at all possible.
SMP's are amazing tools to help people demonstrate their ability. However, they are an amazingly expensive tool that also can hurt your chances of being accepted if you don't perform well (that is always a possibility and must be considered.)
Your stats are in the gray area where you likely could be fine applying without an SMP.
I would recommend you apply this cycle, taking the MCAT in September, work hard and raise your GPA and BCPM and see if you can be successful without the SMP. If by January of next year you haven't been getting interviews/acceptances, then I would consider the SMP.
with an uptrend like you describe, and a strong senior year, you could possibly reach 3.5 or higher before you graduate. 3.5 is a little low, but it is within the range of accepted medical students. With a solid MCAT, you very likely would not even need a SMP. Just make sure that some of your senior classes are upper-division science classes to help raise that BCPM - maybe not to an "acceptable level" - but certainly higher than it is.
The next thing is when to take the MCAT. If you're going to be applying to med school in this cycle, you really should take the September MCAT at the latest. Schools will not consider your application until you have that score. By January, you will be out of competition for many schools out there. With that said, you do not want to take the MCAT until you are prepared. My point only is, work hard to be prepared for September, if at all possible.
SMP's are amazing tools to help people demonstrate their ability. However, they are an amazingly expensive tool that also can hurt your chances of being accepted if you don't perform well (that is always a possibility and must be considered.)
Your stats are in the gray area where you likely could be fine applying without an SMP.
I would recommend you apply this cycle, taking the MCAT in September, work hard and raise your GPA and BCPM and see if you can be successful without the SMP. If by January of next year you haven't been getting interviews/acceptances, then I would consider the SMP.
Not to be difficult, but what separates those who are accepted right away from a SMP and those who aren't is mostly how they performed during the SMP.
There is no definite way to predict how someone is going to do. We have accepted students who we were sure would do well and did not perform. There are also students who we took a chance on (we felt) and who outperformed everyone.
MCAT score seems to be the best overall predictor of performance. Higher score, better performance. However, if a student needs an SMP, it is usually because there was some issue holding them back in undergrad: immaturity, relationship issues, family issues, illness, learning disability, etc. If the student hasn't resolved whatever issue held them back, NO SMP is going to help them.
There is no definite way to predict how someone is going to do. We have accepted students who we were sure would do well and did not perform. There are also students who we took a chance on (we felt) and who outperformed everyone.
MCAT score seems to be the best overall predictor of performance. Higher score, better performance. However, if a student needs an SMP, it is usually because there was some issue holding them back in undergrad: immaturity, relationship issues, family issues, illness, learning disability, etc. If the student hasn't resolved whatever issue held them back, NO SMP is going to help them.
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