EP Expenses

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
docB

docB

Chronically painful
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
Verified Member
Physician
Verified Expert
20+ Year Member
Gold Donor
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
7,890
Reaction score
752
As I was giving yet more money to the government today (I renewed my DEA) I thought it might be valuable to give everyone an idea of what sort of expenses you’ll face every year as an EP. Here goes:

•License $600 every 2 years. (I have 2 so double that)
•DEA ~$550 every 3 years.
•State pharmacy license $50/yr. Many states don’t have these. If your’s doesn’t you get a pass.
•ATLS $300 every 4 years. That’s the refresher. If you go over your 6 month grace period it’s a whole weekend and $600 for the whole course.
•ACLS varies but I have partners who have paid $200 to do an online version and avoid the class.
•PALS varies, see above.
•ACEP $550 / year.
•Hospital privileging $50 - $500 per hospital per year. Many groups pay this. Some don’t.
•CME varies. It’s easy to get free CME but some states require specific things like ethics and bioterrorism. You often get stuck paying for these. $25- $200 per class.
•LLSA $100/yr for the test.
•LLSA $80-$300/yr for the study materials. Most people I know (including me) do one that costs $225.
•ConCert exam $1625 every 10 years.

--I know that ACEP is not mandatory but I think everyone should belong to at least one of the professional orginizations.

--I know that ACEP and AAEM have policies about BC EPs not needing the merit badges but many EPs are in my situation where a group or hospital as said “We don’t care. Do it.”
Members don't see this ad.
 
What LLSA review thing do you use? Do you do one that you take the exam together?
 
My ACEP was $790....I think this is the max since they increase it each year for the first few years you are out of residency....

AAEM is in the mid $400s.

My group requires us to be with Santa Clara Medical Assoc, and they require CMA membership, about $1000 for both.

I belong to AMA, about $450/yr, but it pays for itself with the discounts it gives for the disability and life insurance that I have with them (saves me more than the cost of the dues).

As a DO in CA, I have to do an AOA conference once during each 3 year cycle to get my AOA cat IA credits, about $600 per 3 year cycle (plus travel/lodging costs).

I pay my own malpractice, about $1500/quarterly (goes up to about $3500ish over a 5 year span).

My hospital does not require ACLS/PALS for the ER docs, but I do them for the AOA cat I CME, $175 for each every 2 years via online course.

$400 every 2 years for Critical Decisions (60 CMEs/yr).

Plus the usual license, LLSA, DEA fees, a many more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

It ain't cheap to be a doc, that's for sure. Everyone seems to want a piece of the pie...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Quick question.. Doesnt your group pay for this? I would assume they do. Lastly 3500 / qtr for insurance seems cheap!
 
I do have all the same fees, but my group pays for them.

One could say that those fees could come out of my salary, since it comes out of the group....

but regardless, I get a check after I submit my payments.

Q
 
EctopicFetus said:
Quick question.. Doesnt your group pay for this? I would assume they do. Lastly 3500 / qtr for insurance seems cheap!
Click to expand...

I think that no matter where you work, you are really paying for your own malpractice and other expenses. Like Quinn said, you are paying for it with less of a salary, and it comes out of your group's expenses. I work in a FFS group, and I get paid 100% of my collections minus a few expenses, such as group overhead fees, billing company fees, and malpractice. There is no middle man siphoning off the top.

Med mal is relatively cheap in CA thanks to malpractice reform (MICRA). I don't really "write the check" each quarter, but it is taken out of my paycheck since the group has a policy, which is also nice since we get a little bit of a group discount.
 
EctopicFetus said:
Quick question.. Doesnt your group pay for this? I would assume they do.
Click to expand...
Every group is different. Some groups pay all of this stuff (and as was astutely pointed out by others, it's your money so if your group is paying it you're paying it), some let the docs do it. To your bottom line it probably doesn't make much difference.
 
Sorry for the necrobump but I just renewed my DEA for $731. That's up from $550 back in '07 (which is what I was curious enough about to search up this old thread). Now $731 isn't that bad for a 3 year cert especially compared to medical licenses. Both of my licenses are $800 every 2 years. I also have to pay for a pharm card. So I do feel like I'm paying my "fair share."
 
Even so, you pay these off in less than 1 shift of work, so what's the big deal?
 
docB said:
Sorry for the necrobump but I just renewed my DEA for $731. That's up from $550 back in '07 (which is what I was curious enough about to search up this old thread). Now $731 isn't that bad for a 3 year cert especially compared to medical licenses. Both of my licenses are $800 every 2 years. I also have to pay for a pharm card. So I do feel like I'm paying my "fair share."
Click to expand...

Thanks for bumping this actually, I've been curious about how the financial headaches shake out for EP's for a bit. One quick question, probably more specific to the license fees, but are those fees, and their periodicity, a state-by-state variable? Or will some states have 10 year renewals for licenses, etc? Thanks for the input.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
Thanks for bumping this actually, I've been curious about how the financial headaches shake out for EP's for a bit. One quick question, probably more specific to the license fees, but are those fees, and their periodicity, a state-by-state variable? Or will some states have 10 year renewals for licenses, etc? Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

I don't know of any state that will license you that long. And if they did, you can bet it would cost ~$3-5K to do so. Most states that I'm familiar with (an admittedly small sample of 20% of them) license for 2 years at a time.
 
docB said:
As I was giving yet more money to the government today (I renewed my DEA) I thought it might be valuable to give everyone an idea of what sort of expenses you’ll face every year as an EP. Here goes:

•License $600 every 2 years. (I have 2 so double that)
•DEA ~$550 every 3 years.
•State pharmacy license $50/yr. Many states don’t have these. If your’s doesn’t you get a pass.
•ATLS $300 every 4 years. That’s the refresher. If you go over your 6 month grace period it’s a whole weekend and $600 for the whole course.
•ACLS varies but I have partners who have paid $200 to do an online version and avoid the class.
•PALS varies, see above.
•ACEP $550 / year.
•Hospital privileging $50 - $500 per hospital per year. Many groups pay this. Some don’t.
•CME varies. It’s easy to get free CME but some states require specific things like ethics and bioterrorism. You often get stuck paying for these. $25- $200 per class.
•LLSA $100/yr for the test.
•LLSA $80-$300/yr for the study materials. Most people I know (including me) do one that costs $225.
•ConCert exam $1625 every 10 years.

--I know that ACEP is not mandatory but I think everyone should belong to at least one of the professional orginizations.

--I know that ACEP and AAEM have policies about BC EPs not needing the merit badges but many EPs are in my situation where a group or hospital as said “We don’t care. Do it.”
Click to expand...

How many people are able to use the AAEM expert resuscitation card in lieu of ACLS, PALS and ATLS?
 
dotcb said:
Even so, you pay these off in less than 1 shift of work, so what's the big deal?
Click to expand...

Sure. One shift for these expenses. One shift for the board certification stuff plus the time spent. 2 or 3 shifts a month for malpractice. It all adds up. Throw in EMTALA mandated care to get really depressing.

The big deal is this: students and residents should know about this stuff before they budget wrong and the idea that people in our income bracket don't pay our fair share does not take into account a lot of expenses.

alphaholic06 said:
How much of this is tax deductible?
Click to expand...

It depends on how your finances are set up. If you are W2 it's hard to deduct it. If you are incorporated all of it should be deductible.
 
But virtually every field has an analogous set of expenses - the price of doing business.



docB said:
Sure. One shift for these expenses. One shift for the board certification stuff plus the time spent. 2 or 3 shifts a month for malpractice. It all adds up. Throw in EMTALA mandated care to get really depressing.

The big deal is this: students and residents should know about this stuff before they budget wrong and the idea that people in our income bracket don't pay our fair share does not take into account a lot of expenses.



It depends on how your finances are set up. If you are W2 it's hard to deduct it. If you are incorporated all of it should be deductible.
Click to expand...
 
dotcb said:
Even so, you pay these off in less than 1 shift of work, so what's the big deal?
Click to expand...

By this logic, it's okay for your car dealership to charge you twice what they charge everyone else, and rip you off because "you can afford it." It's the same tired old "doctors are greedy and rich" mentality.

The logic works perfectly until it's the guy that earn less than you, saying you should get soaked because you make more than him.

:yawn:
 
You don't need an AAEM card. You just need to get on whatever committee (usually something like medical executive committee) and make it where only non-BC EPs have to get the merit badges.
ACS doesn't recommend ATLS but once for EPs. There isn't any legitimate reason for us to have to take the same classes nurses do, when the flowchart goes to "consult expert" and you're the expert. It's ridiculous.
It's all tax deductible for IC, but all that means is that you only pay 70% of it or so instead of 100%. I don't consider that a "win".
 
Dr.McNinja said:
You don't need an AAEM card. You just need to get on whatever committee (usually something like medical executive committee) and make it where only non-BC EPs have to get the merit badges.
ACS doesn't recommend ATLS but once for EPs. There isn't any legitimate reason for us to have to take the same classes nurses do, when the flowchart goes to "consult expert" and you're the expert. It's ridiculous.
It's all tax deductible for IC, but all that means is that you only pay 70% of it or so instead of 100%. I don't consider that a "win".
Click to expand...

Agree with McNinja.

At the end of the ACLS algorithm is "seek expert consultation"--we are the expert consultation

Edit: (didn't read McNinja's post fully until afterward when he talked about expert consultation)
 
do ya'll really pay for LLSA study materials??? i haven't paid a dime above the cost of the exams. the articles are free... the tests are easy peasy.

as far as ACLS/PALS - my main hospital system doesn't require them for EP's, but is an EM strong area (top notch EM residency in the hospital system). i am looking to moonlight so i have kept them up for that purpose only - don't want to get stuck having to actually do the courses. i do the online stuff, takes an hour each max, and about $200 each.

FWIW, my group has a rather generous "business account", which covers all of the above. i know it's the same "money", but it feels better not having to actually pay the $$ myself out of my own account, and do tax deductions etc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

bravotwozero
APP sued by EPs for damages
Replies
44
Views
4K
Brigade4Radiant
Brigade4Radiant
bravotwozero
New app for EP's to rate their employer
Replies
11
Views
1K
alpinism
alpinism
P
Cutting Personal Expenses
2
Replies
56
Views
4K
TooMuchResearch
T
F
Decrease in EP salaries/pay?
2
Replies
66
Views
9K
e30ftw
e30ftw
Doctor_Strange
Is there an equivalency in EM where an EP can become a partner, or earn more by having a "senior" position?
Replies
9
Views
1K
TooMuchResearch
T
Top