Wash U program?

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Does anyone have any idea what the Wash U in St. Louis program is like? Good, bad. or ugly? There were no reviews on Scutwork. Also, if anyone has thoughts on any of the other programs in St. Louis, I would appreciate hearing. Thanks.

I've heard that it's a great program. Apparently there is a significant investment in teaching time, interns take on a lot of responsibility, and it's fairly benign in comparison to most of the other high-powered IM residencies. But this is just hearsay

I too heard good things about Wash U's internal medicine program from a peds resident. She told me that I should apply because they are very nice to the residents there and they have a relatively benign call schedule.

Lisa_OSU,

I am a MS1 at OSU-COM. I am from St. Louis and hope to get a residency at WashU. I did research there for two years before going to med school. WashU in general is pretty apathetic towards DOs, but I don't think they have ever admitted one to their IM residency. Let me know if you decide to put them on your match list. It would be great for a DO (especially one form OSU) to get in and do a good job. That could pave the way for DOs in that program (myself included).

I interviewed at Wash U and thought the program was great. However, like with DOs it is extremely difficult for IMGs to get in.

I am an MS4 at Wash U and I am applying for residency in IM.
I have just finished my sub-I at Barnes Hospital (Wash U main teaching hospital) & I've also rotated through the VA medicine service here. I have heard & observed uniformly good things about the Wash U. IM program. The residents (including interns) seem very happy and they get a lot of autonomy especially on the ward & VA services. The call schedule is q4 (except q3 in the ICUs) and there is a 10pm or 10-patient per team admission cap (and I have never seen those rules broken) Night float takes cross cover and admissions after 10 pm. The residents are definitely treated well compared to other programs of this caliber. Barnes is a tertiary care center and the typical ward patient has multiple problems. For me and most of my classmates seeking IM residencies the last few years, staying here is at/near the top of the list which is a great recommendation. Lots of people shy away from St Louis especially coming from the coasts. It is however, an easy place to live and very affordable- you could buy a house here versus not being able to pay rent in some cities.

bump

any interviews from wash u?

I can't speak for IM, but I am starting at Wash in EM in 24 hours . And I just realized this post is from 4 years ago.

Best Wishes

The Mish

Interviewed there, didn't like it, didn't rank. Search the forums for the interview feedback thread, I'm not reposting my rants again.

Originally Posted by Mumpu

Interviewed there, didn't like it, didn't rank. Search the forums for the interview feedback thread, I'm not reposting my rants again.

I too interviewed there and was duly unimpressed by the Merck Dept. of Medicine. It's not really called that but it sure felt like I was at a pharm co.

BE (now PE)

..let me see, Washington Manual, hmmm =IM bible, hmmm..maybe a decent program..maybe a stretch here...just guessing!

In the eye of the beholder...

I don't consider Wash Manual to be the bible. I though St. Louis was a hideous place to live, after hearing about all the great cases the morning report was (wait for it... wait for it... an obvious tylenol overdose), the noon conference wasn't particularly good, the chiefs do not teach, the program is out of touch with the realities of hospitalist training, the program director wasn't there at all during the interview day, and I thought the schedule was excessively cush.

I admit I have Wash manual on my PDA, but I use pocket medicine and 5MCC 90% of the time. I was just giving her a hard time. It was kind of a silly question...but I've asked my share of those too! And PS AFter doing audition rotations at 2 top 15 med schools, I think that US news and W ranking is a bunch of Sh%$! 80% of the research at both those schools were being done by chinese post-docs, with 0% clinical exposure..how that translates into a top tier school is baffling to me, but it seems thats how people love to rank schools!! Just interview at 10-15 places and do your best to find where you think you will fit in best. most of the US hospitals are identical in how they operate, even the so called top tier schools...My program is considered community, but I have a world reknowned GI doc and the nations busiest Interv. cardiologist. Gee, you think I might learn some IM here???? GL

This is second hand, so take it with a giant bag of 3% saline:
A friend of a friend went down there, and he/she was scheduled to work every major holidy during his/her internship year. Nobody in the administration nor the Chiefs picked up on this horrible schedule, and when asked about it their response was that he/she could trade with fellow residents to try to get important days off...which would be incredibly hard since he/she's working every major holiday already. He/she also pointed out that the nursing staff at the VA in St. Louis is scarry, even for a VA. He/she noted one experience in particular where the nursing staff basically ignored the "call house officer if..." orders on a patient who was crashing. Again, this is all second hand info.

If you are applying think twice. The attitude of the program has really changed in recent years. The program is undergoing many changes in its set up right now. PD is responsive to house staff but the chiefs have fostered an attitude of being unresponsive to problems and issues. The set up in the clinic is very time consuming and not conducive to learning. The medicine office is not very friendly. They are very on people's backs about documenting work hours, but really it is that they want people to doucment hours a certain way. They don't care if the hours are actually accurate. There are some very good attendings, but often on wards you will be set up with attendings who spend 1 month of the year on wards and the rest of the year in the lab, so they can't teach much practically or clinically. The BJH nurses are pretty good, but I am comparing them to VA nurses (who may as well not exist).
True, the chiefs are very unresponsive to schedules. I know someone who told the chiefs that they wanted to go into a certain specialty, and got no time in the field for electives their intern or 2nd yr. I also know someone who requested time off for their own wedding and was scheduled for wards or the ICU during that time. She had to trade with some very nice fellow residents. Most of the people in the program are nice and collegial, but there is a lot of gossip/talking about people behind their backs. Not sure I would come here if I had to do it again.

Originally Posted by wbjh

If you are applying think twice. The attitude of the program has really changed in recent years. The program is undergoing many changes in its set up right now. PD is responsive to house staff but the chiefs have fostered an attitude of being unresponsive to problems and issues. The set up in the clinic is very time consuming and not conducive to learning. The medicine office is not very friendly. They are very on people's backs about documenting work hours, but really it is that they want people to doucment hours a certain way. They don't care if the hours are actually accurate. There are some very good attendings, but often on wards you will be set up with attendings who spend 1 month of the year on wards and the rest of the year in the lab, so they can't teach much practically or clinically. The BJH nurses are pretty good, but I am comparing them to VA nurses (who may as well not exist).
True, the chiefs are very unresponsive to schedules. I know someone who told the chiefs that they wanted to go into a certain specialty, and got no time in the field for electives their intern or 2nd yr. I also know someone who requested time off for their own wedding and was scheduled for wards or the ICU during that time. She had to trade with some very nice fellow residents. Most of the people in the program are nice and collegial, but there is a lot of gossip/talking about people behind their backs. Not sure I would come here if I had to do it again.

Wow, 5.5 year bump. Nice work.

Agree. Not happy with the program either. Not much pride among the residents, and chiefs don't seem approachable or responsive.

Originally Posted by wbjh

If you are applying think twice. The attitude of the program has really changed in recent years. The program is undergoing many changes in its set up right now. PD is responsive to house staff but the chiefs have fostered an attitude of being unresponsive to problems and issues. The set up in the clinic is very time consuming and not conducive to learning. The medicine office is not very friendly. They are very on people's backs about documenting work hours, but really it is that they want people to doucment hours a certain way. They don't care if the hours are actually accurate. There are some very good attendings, but often on wards you will be set up with attendings who spend 1 month of the year on wards and the rest of the year in the lab, so they can't teach much practically or clinically. The BJH nurses are pretty good, but I am comparing them to VA nurses (who may as well not exist).
True, the chiefs are very unresponsive to schedules. I know someone who told the chiefs that they wanted to go into a certain specialty, and got no time in the field for electives their intern or 2nd yr. I also know someone who requested time off for their own wedding and was scheduled for wards or the ICU during that time. She had to trade with some very nice fellow residents. Most of the people in the program are nice and collegial, but there is a lot of gossip/talking about people behind their backs. Not sure I would come here if I had to do it again.

Your replies are very weird, guys :S ALL ranking threads in SDN list Washington U in the top 10, if not top 5, IM residency programs in the country. Even when looking on fellowships ranking, W U fellowships are ranked in the top 5-10 in the country. Let's assume that the program is bad, why in ALL threads, both old and new, WU is in the top?!

Originally Posted by wbjh

If you are applying think twice. The attitude of the program has really changed in recent years. The program is undergoing many changes in its set up right now. PD is responsive to house staff but the chiefs have fostered an attitude of being unresponsive to problems and issues. The set up in the clinic is very time consuming and not conducive to learning. The medicine office is not very friendly. They are very on people's backs about documenting work hours, but really it is that they want people to doucment hours a certain way. They don't care if the hours are actually accurate. There are some very good attendings, but often on wards you will be set up with attendings who spend 1 month of the year on wards and the rest of the year in the lab, so they can't teach much practically or clinically. The BJH nurses are pretty good, but I am comparing them to VA nurses (who may as well not exist).
True, the chiefs are very unresponsive to schedules. I know someone who told the chiefs that they wanted to go into a certain specialty, and got no time in the field for electives their intern or 2nd yr. I also know someone who requested time off for their own wedding and was scheduled for wards or the ICU during that time. She had to trade with some very nice fellow residents. Most of the people in the program are nice and collegial, but there is a lot of gossip/talking about people behind their backs. Not sure I would come here if I had to do it again.

This is Tim, I'm a 2nd year resident, and just wanted to respond. This is a phenomenal program. Some of the events mentioned are being taken out of context. We are asked to document our work hours, yes, but there is absolutely NO pressure to lie - we don't have to, because we never violate them the way our schedule is structured. If we DO report violations, we are automatically mandated to meet with our PD to discuss what happened, which is appropriate and shows the program is VERY focused on NOT violating work hours, obviously. There is no need to get into specifics or nit-picking here, but please notice I used my name. This person did not, and could be anyone. I'd also invite this person to come talk to me, if they want - they'll know who I am. I would expect, though, that I won't hear anything.
BJH is the strongest program in the midwest, bar-none, and is competitive with any other top 10 IM residencies in the country. As mentioned above me, look at objective measures like match lists for fellowship. Or, look at how many med student from Washington University decide to stay each year, often times 10 or more (13 this year). Med students are usually the most critical of their own program, and a huge number of them opt to stay every year. And these are Wash U graduates who could go basically anywhere.
Websites like this are dangerous because people can anonymously vent, which is cowardly and inappropriate and dangerous. If you are a med student reading these types of sites to figure out where to go to residency, you're barking up the wrong tree. The way to know a program is to do an externship or come to an interview. Make your decision based on this real, first-person experience, not based on subjective, anonymous rants on a website that does not require any kind of validation for posting.

A "good" residency for one person may not be the best one for certain other people. A lot of it depends on what you want to get out of a residency and whether your personality meshes with the place you match. There is no doubt that WashU has a history of good fellowship matches, and that the hospital is a good place to see various types of pathology. On the other hand, it's not the best neighborhood ever, and the last time I looked the residents' parking wasn't too great...may have changed in recent years. Also, if you are more clinically minded you might be put off by some of the grand rounds, etc. which tend to be very basic science oriented. You also might be put off by some of the personalities or general atmosphere in the hospital, depending on your own personality, cultural background and how you expect to be treated (and treat others). Or you might be impressed that you get to work under a lot of famous people, or at least people who are prominent in their fields of research, and that some of them are even pretty nice. You would certainly not be incompetent by training there, but unless the training has changed a lot in recent years, if you want to do a lot of outpatient general medicine (such as primary care, etc.) it might not be the optimal residency for you. Also, if you don't like to hear people wax poetic about their research interests, or you expect people to give you good evaluations for taking care of a little old lady and having enthusiasm for clinic medicine, you might not find things to your liking from time to time.

I don't agree 100% with the above post stating that the internet isn't a good place to find things out...one could also argue that interviews and/or glossy program brochures are not a great way to find things out...they are just different methods of finding things out. However, one must taking everything on the internet with a grain of salt - hopefully anyone with enough savvy to get into med school knows that.

Originally Posted by littlelebowski

This is Tim, I'm a 2nd year resident, and just wanted to respond. This is a phenomenal program. Some of the events mentioned are being taken out of context. We are asked to document our work hours, yes, but there is absolutely NO pressure to lie - we don't have to, because we never violate them the way our schedule is structured. If we DO report violations, we are automatically mandated to meet with our PD to discuss what happened, which is appropriate and shows the program is VERY focused on NOT violating work hours, obviously. There is no need to get into specifics or nit-picking here, but please notice I used my name. This person did not, and could be anyone. I'd also invite this person to come talk to me, if they want - they'll know who I am. I would expect, though, that I won't hear anything.
BJH is the strongest program in the midwest, bar-none, and is competitive with any other top 10 IM residencies in the country. As mentioned above me, look at objective measures like match lists for fellowship. Or, look at how many med student from Washington University decide to stay each year, often times 10 or more (13 this year). Med students are usually the most critical of their own program, and a huge number of them opt to stay every year. And these are Wash U graduates who could go basically anywhere.
Websites like this are dangerous because people can anonymously vent, which is cowardly and inappropriate and dangerous. If you are a med student reading these types of sites to figure out where to go to residency, you're barking up the wrong tree. The way to know a program is to do an externship or come to an interview. Make your decision based on this real, first-person experience, not based on subjective, anonymous rants on a website that does not require any kind of validation for posting.

Hear hear. WashU resident here as well. The problem with many residents adjusting to the program is that it's in St. Louis, not SF or NYC. I love it here, my wife and I bought a house, which would never have happened in the vast majority of the other cities I interviewed in, and there is plenty to do. The neighborhood around the medical center is actually very nice, with no shortage of restaurants, bars, and inexpensive but comfortable housing. Most residents live within walking distance, but this is by no means necessary, since we get FREE parking that is within easy walking distance (it helps to get information from a primary source). I have no complaints with the clinical training here, and feel that I'm very well prepared to start fellowship in a few short months.

In response to the PD not being responsive... not my experience at all. It seems there are a few very unhappy individuals that have posted above that would likely be unhappy at any program, and since our fellowship match list is as good as it is, they will have the opportunity to be unhappy where-ever they choose to be.

I am a primary source. The parking for residents is free but last time I looked it was a lousy parking lot and people have gotten mugged or cars broken in to from time to time...but free is still free.

Anything new about Wash U program?

Originally Posted by stronghold

Anything new about Wash U program?

It sucks.

Don't go there.

Don't buy their manual

You won't get into fellowship.

Originally Posted by jdh71

It sucks.

Don't go there.

Don't buy their manual

You won't get into fellowship.

Really?! Did you check fellowship match stats there?

Originally Posted by stronghold

Really?! Did you check fellowship match stats there?

it was sarcasm. yikes.

i think it's fairly well known that WashU is a well-established IM residency program with a great reputation that is unlikely to change anytime soon.

Originally Posted by disorder

it was sarcasm. yikes.

i think it's fairly well known that WashU is a well-established IM residency program with a great reputation that is unlikely to change anytime soon.

Exactly.

WashU is awesome.

If you can stand St. Louis . . .

Originally Posted by littlelebowski

This is Tim, I'm a 2nd year resident, and just wanted to respond. This is a phenomenal program. Some of the events mentioned are being taken out of context. We are asked to document our work hours, yes, but there is absolutely NO pressure to lie - we don't have to, because we never violate them the way our schedule is structured. If we DO report violations, we are automatically mandated to meet with our PD to discuss what happened, which is appropriate and shows the program is VERY focused on NOT violating work hours, obviously. There is no need to get into specifics or nit-picking here, but please notice I used my name. This person did not, and could be anyone. I'd also invite this person to come talk to me, if they want - they'll know who I am. I would expect, though, that I won't hear anything.
BJH is the strongest program in the midwest, bar-none, and is competitive with any other top 10 IM residencies in the country. As mentioned above me, look at objective measures like match lists for fellowship. Or, look at how many med student from Washington University decide to stay each year, often times 10 or more (13 this year). Med students are usually the most critical of their own program, and a huge number of them opt to stay every year. And these are Wash U graduates who could go basically anywhere.
Websites like this are dangerous because people can anonymously vent, which is cowardly and inappropriate and dangerous. If you are a med student reading these types of sites to figure out where to go to residency, you're barking up the wrong tree. The way to know a program is to do an externship or come to an interview. Make your decision based on this real, first-person experience, not based on subjective, anonymous rants on a website that does not require any kind of validation for posting.

I thought Wash U was overall, a nice program, when I interviewed there. However, I thought the program leadership wasn't exactly "inspirational," the ambulatory facilities horrific (though new buildings were being built when I interviewed), and work schedule/clinical rigor (as described on interview day) as much more cush than what I'm going through now at a different IM program. The fellowship match list was good, but by no means "blow you away." And I definitely don't think going to Wash U for residency is your guaranteed ticket into a great fellowship at a "top" institute (which I do think is the case at the top 5 IM residencies in the country, unless you're terrible).

Couple of points:
1) I don't think med students are the most critical of their own program. I also don't think Wash U grads can go "anywhere" (I don't see any in all three years of my IM residency program, and haven't noted any in the other residency departments in the hospital I'm at). I think, like all great medical schools, there are likely few great students (AOA, high Step 1's) who will interview at all the "top" programs, but everyone else is treated like all the other "average med students" in the country.

2) I would argue that Wash U student staying at the IM residency program reflects one of two things: 1) It was the best program they interviewed at/got into; programs tend to heavily favor students from their own medical school , 2) They chose to stay there because they love the program and location. I'm sure there are Wash U med students that are at the Wash U IM residency program due to a solid mix of #1 and #2.

3) There are a number of fantastic IM programs in the midwest. Based on my interview experience, I would argue that U Michigan, U Chicago, Northwestern and Mayo are all equal, if not all stronger programs. Obviously, this is subjective, but "bar-none" is a huge stretch.

Best ways to evaluate a program (I think) are:
1) Resident happiness and perception of clinical training when you interview (go to the dinner!!)
2) A copy of the fellowship match list given to you by the program (not people saying it's "strong")
3) Opportunities outside of residency (will they fund global health work, will they support and fund you pursuing an MPH or MBA?)
4) Program leadership and support. Having an awesome, cool, supportive PD makes a HUGE difference, builds morale (I never thought this would be important when I interviewed)
5) Research opportunities
6) Obviously location falls somewhere on this list

What fellowship spot is it that you cannot get coming from WashU?

haha the answer is all fellowships are attainable coming out of Wash U if you're phenomenal (as is the case with other solid IM programs). I just don't think going there is a "guaranteed ticket" into a great fellowship at a top institute.

jdh, I'd like you to also know that you have probably played a bigger role in my medical education than some of my med school professors. I feel like you've been dropping knowledge on these boards since when I started applying to med school!

Originally Posted by styleandsugar

haha the answer is all fellowships are attainable coming out of Wash U if you're phenomenal (as is the case with other solid IM programs). I just don't think going there is a "guaranteed ticket" into a great fellowship at a top institute.

jdh, I'd like you to also know that you have probably played a bigger role in my medical education than some of my med school professors. I feel like you've been dropping knowledge on these boards since when I started applying to med school!

Well, I do like to help out. If I can. Pay it forward if possible.

You know, no one told me a lot of the stuff I had to find out on my own, far too often the hard way. Sometimes it felt like ever since I entered medical school there was this clique of people who knew the game and the rest of us were kind of shut out. Of course there wasn't some kind of grand conspiracy, but some people were helped out and the rest of us didn't even know what we didn't know - about grades, about scores, about applying, about even which programs are considered par, good, or excellent, how to get a good letter of rec, etc., etc.

So I'm glad I've been helpful to some of you. Actually feels good to know that. All my time hasn't been wasted here.

And as we all know name-brand will help any fellowship application but being a great resident just about anywhere can really take you places. If the people who train you will vouch for your being a good resident, a decent human being, and a great asset to any fellowship program, and mean it, you can literally match about anywhere.

Though, as I'm finishing my first year of fellowship I'm starting to get a bit of feel for some of the nuance that goes into selecting new fellows. A fellow has more responsibility and is expected to work alone much, much more than a resident, even though they are still training under the auspices of an attending. Many fellowships are BRUTAL first year. Mine was. If they don't have a sense that your residency program was rigorous enough, they can't take the chance that you show up to their fellowship program and screw the pooch and wash-out - no hard feelings. And some places are worse than others . . .

.

Originally Posted by littlelebowski

...Websites like this are dangerous because people can anonymously vent, which is cowardly and inappropriate and dangerous. If you are a med student reading these types of sites to figure out where to go to residency, you're barking up the wrong tree. The way to know a program is to do an externship or come to an interview. Make your decision based on this real, first-person experience, not based on subjective, anonymous rants on a website that does not require any kind of validation for posting.

Does anyone seriously think there would be any honest feedback if not for the anonymity? I'm sure many residents even hold back their criticism on the "anonymous" ACGME surveys due to fear of their identity being discovered. I agree that some are just rants and are reckless and inappropriate, but some are insightful and provide info that would not otherwise have been made available and retain some objectivity. Those should not be summarily dismissed as you suggest.

Also would like to give Reps to JDH. His insights into the workings of IM are quite phenomenal. He is a beacon of hope in the bleak landscape of modern day IM. Your posts have enlightened me about a lot of things regarding medicine as well as general life issues. I would hope I end up at a residency program this year with a PD that is like you in terms of saying it like it is.

Anything new about this program?

Originally Posted by stronghold

Anything new about this program?

Originally Posted by jdh71

It sucks.

Don't go there.

Don't buy their manual

You won't get into fellowship.

See above - nothing has changed in 6 months.