Soon to be PhD, wannabe MD

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So, I'm in my (hopefully) last year of PhD work, and I like the rest of you I want to go to medical school. Let's not dwell on the why, but the how...

I've got an UG GPA around 2.5 for both in major (Biological Sciences) and overall. I have been noticing how important UG grades are since I read about it all over the web, this site, and here it from advisors and even the admissions office where I am now. I contacted the pre-med advisor at my UG institution and he basically said don't waste your time or money trying to correct my UG GPA by going back to take classes I already have (still need orgo2 w/lab).

My question: Is this sound advice (i.e. is it really worth it to spend 2 or 3 years repeating UG classes which will have a small effect on my UG GPA)?

P.S. I am planning on taking a Kaplan course after studying for a year for the MCAT (while doing a post-doc). I'd like to blow them away with the MCAT score. I'm also volunteering in the OR here as well, which is awesome BTW. Basically I'd like to make the rest of my app as competative as humanly possible, but do I need to repeat half my UG to do so?

What say ye?

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HI there. That UG GPA will be a huge hurdle. If you can take the pre-reqs and get STRAIGHT As, you could show upward trend. Some schools will look at trends instead of actual GPA if you are older (are you older? 30+?). Also stomping the MCAT would show them you can learn this stuff. But, if GPA is really way below 3.0, computers may kick you out by numbers before a human being gets the chance to see that you are more than the sum of your AMCAS parts.

My UG was also pretty bad, but my second degree and my masters were both top of the class. Lucky for me, MSU looked at my trends and did not jsut throw out my app because of youthful stupidity from a dozen years ago. Also, knock out those ECs and remember that non-trads have to write a killer personal statement (PM me if you would like some advice on how to write the kind of PS that makes people who read it think that it is perfectly logical that you should go to medschool).


Good luck to you.
 
Thanks for the reply 2008orbust. Yes, I am an older applicant (30 last May). If you had to hazard a guess about schools using automated (i.e. computer based) prescreening by numbers, how many and which schools? I assume that schools that receive a very high number of applicants would use computer screening...probably top tier schools also (Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Hopkins etc...).

I asked the head of admissions here at UMB point blank whether my GPA would count me out. He replied that without a completed application he couldn't make a fair judgment but that my GPA wouldn't necessarily knock me out of consideration, especially considering I'll have the PhD at that point.

So you went back to UG, got a second degree and then a masters before going to med school? Holy crap, that's a lot of time and money!

I have one more pre-req to complete (Organic 2). How much of a difference it would make to take it a community college vs. a private one? Money is obviously an issue right now.
 
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I'm going to be honest with you and tell you that with a 2.5 GPA, your application won't be competitive at any medical school in this country, whether or not you have a PhD. You'll have to retake courses (all of the prereqs at least, probably some upper division) and raise your GPA above 3.0, and then probably need a special masters program and very good MCAT to have a chance.
 
Thanks for the reply 2008orbust. Yes, I am an older applicant (30 last May). If you had to hazard a guess about schools using automated (i.e. computer based) prescreening by numbers, how many and which schools? I assume that schools that receive a very high number of applicants would use computer screening...probably top tier schools also (Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Hopkins etc...).

I asked the head of admissions here at UMB point blank whether my GPA would count me out. He replied that without a completed application he couldn't make a fair judgment but that my GPA wouldn't necessarily knock me out of consideration, especially considering I'll have the PhD at that point.

So you went back to UG, got a second degree and then a masters before going to med school? Holy crap, that's a lot of time and money!

I have one more pre-req to complete (Organic 2). How much of a difference it would make to take it a community college vs. a private one? Money is obviously an issue right now.

Hi again. I had no intention of ever going after an MD. My second degree was a nursing degree and my masters was my NP (i've been a nurse practitioner for 5 years). I just wanted to be an NP and only last winter decided to make a go for medical school. So all those middle degrees were just for me, not for medical school, but it's funny that they worked out the way they did when I suddenly decided I wanted to go MD. I never went back and took the pre-reqs again to increase my GPA (although that is not good advice for someone who is trying to get into medschool).

As far as where you retake your pre-reqs, a lot of people will say it doesn't matter. In your case, where you are trying to show them "look, I can totally hack it in medschool" I would think that the harder courses in a large university would make your point a little better. Either way, you must ACE them. If you come out with all Bs, it doesn't really make that strong of a statement.

Are you open to DO? There are some awesome programs out there and when they calculate your GPA, they only count the retakes. MD schools count every attempt. Just a thought.

Good luck James
 
I'll have a PhD in Neuroscience.

I was considering doing the community college thing when I was considering only taking orgo2. What I'm hearing from you guys is that I should repeat all the undergrad pre-req's that I did poorly in (and ace them), in which case I would take them at the best UG school that would have me. However, I'm not entirely convinced that the cost (time, effort and money) would be worth it.

This is what the pre-med advisor from my undergraduate school told me,

"[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica]You certainly must have a full year of organic with labs but before you
commit to any coursework, you need to know if you will be a legitimate
candidate if you make up certain deficiencies...I do not think that med schools will necessarily see value in
taking the same course at another school to raise a grade. I think your
Ph.D. program is going to be your selling point rather than trying to
retrace undergrad grades. You are 8 years removed from your undergraduate
courses, and I would think that what you have done since will weigh more
heavily than what you did when you were 18-19 years old. I also presume
that your program has some courses, perhaps biochemistry or physical
chemistry, that med schools will take a good look at."
After reading that, I was thinking, "why bother retaking those courses?" Although, he probably doesn't have much experience with non-trad applicants...

Here's is what the chair of the admissions dept. of University of Maryland at Baltimore (where I am finishing my PhD) told me:

".[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica]Without a completed application in front of me (all of your grades,
MCAT's activities, letters, Personal Comments)I cannot answer your
question. Your GPA will not be a competitive one but there are no
cut-offs. Your graduate work will certainly be considered. That is about
all that I can definitively tell you."

The above had me convinced that retaking those courses was a waste of time. But of course he isn't going to discourage me from applying even if there was no chance since every applicant means more money.

Maybe I'm obsessing over this too much...
Maybe I should bite the bullet and go back to undergrad full-time next year...
.
 
As I said before, a quick glance at the MSAR should tell you that you need to increase your GPA. Only 2% of applicants with < 3.0 GPA were admitted to MD programs.
 
I think people on this site don't appreciate the work that is involved in a PhD. While I am not in med school "many others here who are giving their 2 cents worth aren't either", I personally think you'll be fine with low ug score, decent MCAT, and PhD. After all a PhD requires original research, and thesis defense by a panel of experts who's main goal in life is to rip your research to shreads, and not give you the degree that you think you have earned.
 
I assume that schools that receive a very high number of applicants would use computer screening...probably top tier schools also (Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Hopkins etc...).

My understanding is ALL schools use a GPA screen. They ALL get a ton of applications. I can't remember the exact stats, but they usually get 100 apps for every seat if I remember right.

You may have better luck at DO schools, they are less competitive numbers wise.

Even a dynomite MCAT won't make up for a 2.5 GPA unless it is in the 40's perhaps. In order for you to make the cutoff for the computer there is a forumula:

10 * GPA + MCAT

To find out if you are competitive at a school look at their avg GPA and avg MCAT and plug it into the forumula.

For example my school, TTU: 3.62 * 10 + 29.53 = 65.73

So at 2.5, you would need somewhere between 40 and 45 to be competitive.

Honestly, I think you are a good candidate for one of the pre-med post bac courses that are designed to improve your stats. There are a ton out there. Some of them, if you achieve a certain grade you are guaranteed a spot in the next years class. I didn't do one so I'm not the best person to comment on them.

There is a better link out there but check out some of these.

http://hpap.syr.edu/LISTPB.HTM
 
I'll have a PhD in Neuroscience.

I was considering doing the community college thing when I was considering only taking orgo2. What I'm hearing from you guys is that I should repeat all the undergrad pre-req's that I did poorly in (and ace them), in which case I would take them at the best UG school that would have me. However, I'm not entirely convinced that the cost (time, effort and money) would be worth it.

This is what the pre-med advisor from my undergraduate school told me,

"[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica]You certainly must have a full year of organic with labs but before you
commit to any coursework, you need to know if you will be a legitimate
candidate if you make up certain deficiencies...I do not think that med schools will necessarily see value in
taking the same course at another school to raise a grade. I think your
Ph.D. program is going to be your selling point rather than trying to
retrace undergrad grades. You are 8 years removed from your undergraduate
courses, and I would think that what you have done since will weigh more
heavily than what you did when you were 18-19 years old. I also presume
that your program has some courses, perhaps biochemistry or physical
chemistry, that med schools will take a good look at."
After reading that, I was thinking, "why bother retaking those courses?" Although, he probably doesn't have much experience with non-trad applicants...

Here's is what the chair of the admissions dept. of University of Maryland at Baltimore (where I am finishing my PhD) told me:

".[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica]Without a completed application in front of me (all of your grades,
MCAT's activities, letters, Personal Comments)I cannot answer your
question. Your GPA will not be a competitive one but there are no
cut-offs. Your graduate work will certainly be considered. That is about
all that I can definitively tell you."

The above had me convinced that retaking those courses was a waste of time. But of course he isn't going to discourage me from applying even if there was no chance since every applicant means more money.

Maybe I'm obsessing over this too much...
Maybe I should bite the bullet and go back to undergrad full-time next year...
.


I'm an MS4 who finished a PhD prior to medical school, and there are others who have done so that post on SDN. Go to the MD/PhD forum and do a search - there are a couple threads there that go into detail about this topic. Unfortunately, your undergrad GPA will be a huge factor in the process. It will be up to you to decide how to improve you application (re-taking pre-reqs vs post-bacc/or special masters program)...checkout the other threads (I think one is even a sticky) and then post in that forum (I only came across this on the main page as I was scrolling down) for more advice...
 
I think you make some good points saylorsdad, and its nice to hear some words of encouragement.

Realistically speaking, it certainly can't hurt anything (besides my wallet) to take a year to repeat some undergrad courses. It is a blow to the ego to think that last year I was assisting and tutoring M1 students for the neuro module of gross anatomy and next year I could be taking classes with kids who are just out of high school.

BTW thanks to everyone who has replied.
 
I think people on this site don't appreciate the work that is involved in a PhD. While I am not in med school "many others here who are giving their 2 cents worth aren't either", I personally think you'll be fine with low ug score, decent MCAT, and PhD. After all a PhD requires original research, and thesis defense by a panel of experts who's main goal in life is to rip your research to shreads, and not give you the degree that you think you have earned.

A PhD doesn't justify poor academic performance. If you haven't proven that you can handle the rigors of the basic science years, you will not be admitted to medical school.
 
A PhD in neuroscience justifies that he can handle the undergraduate science classes just stop and think who teaches these undergraduate science classes. I am not trying to give bad advice just telling him that he needs to take MCAT. Let the schools decide with real information, if he does well on the MCAT, then I am fairly certain that he will be fine with a PhD and low undergrad grades.
 
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A PhD in neuroscience justifies that he can handle the undergraduate science classes just stop and think who teaches these undergraduate science classes. I am not trying to give bad advice just telling him that he needs to take MCAT. Let the schools decide with real information, if he does well on the MCAT, then I am fairly certain that he will be fine with a PhD and low undergrad grades.

... look, if you want to advise someone with 2.5 GPA to apply, that's your right. However, some people are actually interested in helping the individuals who are asking for helping by giving advice that will actually help them attain their goal of attending a medical school. How many people with 2.5 undergraduate GPA are attending medical school according to the MSAR? (Hint, it's close to 0%) BTW, it's not that rare for people with PhDs to be applying. Most of them have pretty good undergraduate performance.
 
Easy fellas...

Bottom line as I see it: Undergrad grades are a large part of what makes or breaks you as a med school applicant as AMCAS doesn't use graduate classes to compute GPA. This is unfortunate and misleading because it does not give a comprehensive snapshot of academic performance.

Rant: The first year of graduate school in a biomedical or life sciences program is much more difficult than the traditional pre-med course-load. Don't believe me? Ask a first year grad student about the "core course" as it is usually called. This "class" is heavy on biochemistry, molecular biology, genetics and metabolism and is designed to weed out slackers. Grad students without a bachelors in biochem usually go through a semester of torture before they get to study what they went to school for in the first place (e.g. neuroscience, immunology, etc...). That being said, please don't talk about my poor undergrad grades as an accurate assessment of my academic performance. End Rant.

OK. My tone may be a bit defensive or harsh, but you get the idea.
 
Rant: The first year of graduate school in a biomedical or life sciences program is much more difficult than the traditional pre-med course-load. Don't believe me? Ask a first year grad student about the "core course" as it is usually called. This "class" is heavy on biochemistry, molecular biology, genetics and metabolism and is designed to weed out slackers. Grad students without a bachelors in biochem usually go through a semester of torture before they get to study what they went to school for in the first place (e.g. neuroscience, immunology, etc...). That being said, please don't talk about my poor undergrad grades as an accurate assessment of my academic performance. End Rant.

Whether or not your low GPA in undergrad is an accurate assessment of your academic performance, medical schools will see it as such. That's simply the way it is, regardless of how you try to justify it. I did my undergrad at a very difficult school in a field of study completely unrelated to science, while working full time. Since deciding to return, I've taken 52 credits of hard science with a GPA > 3.9 but recognize the fact that medical schools are going to take my prior academic performance into consideration even though it's not at all representative of my abilities. In my previous field of study, GPA was essentially irrelevant compared to useful work experiences, and the fact that my CV was fantastic allowed me to get very desirable jobs in extremely competitive fields (investment banking, strategy consulting).

If I get the chance to discuss the situation at an interview, every interviewer I've spoken with has said that getting a 3.3 in undergrad while working 40+ hours per week is fine but many schools will screen me out for interviews since my cGPA isn't as high as their averages, and that's unfortunate, but something I need to deal with. Certainly you can mitigate some of those concerns by doing well on the MCAT, but it's not a panacea for academic problems. I've been happy with my application progress this season, but it will be almost four years since I decided to change careers from when I will actually (and hopefully) matriculate into a medical school. Applying as a non-traditional student is certainly not an easy path, and doing so while being hampered by a 2.5 GPA is going to make it extremely difficult, regardless of what anyone will tell you. As I said before, though, you don't have to take my word for it, the MSAR doesn't lie.
 
Whether or not your low GPA in undergrad is an accurate assessment of your academic performance, medical schools will see it as such. That's simply the way it is, regardless of how you try to justify it. I did my undergrad at a very difficult school in a field of study completely unrelated to science, while working full time. Since deciding to return, I've taken 52 credits of hard science with a GPA > 3.9 but recognize the fact that medical schools are going to take my prior academic performance into consideration even though it's not at all representative of my abilities. In my previous field of study, GPA was essentially irrelevant compared to useful work experiences, and the fact that my CV was fantastic allowed me to get very desirable jobs in extremely competitive fields (investment banking, strategy consulting).

If I get the chance to discuss the situation at an interview, every interviewer I've spoken with has said that getting a 3.3 in undergrad while working 40+ hours per week is fine but many schools will screen me out for interviews since my cGPA isn't as high as their averages, and that's unfortunate, but something I need to deal with. Certainly you can mitigate some of those concerns by doing well on the MCAT, but it's not a panacea for academic problems. I've been happy with my application progress this season, but it will be almost four years since I decided to change careers from when I will actually (and hopefully) matriculate into a medical school. Applying as a non-traditional student is certainly not an easy path, and doing so while being hampered by a 2.5 GPA is going to make it extremely difficult, regardless of what anyone will tell you. As I said before, though, you don't have to take my word for it, the MSAR doesn't lie.

All too true. Thanks to everyone responding for being so candid about their own experiences.

As far as taking more undergrad classes, I'm not going to make any definite plans until I take the MCAT.
 
All too true. Thanks to everyone responding for being so candid about their own experiences.

As far as taking more undergrad classes, I'm not going to make any definite plans until I take the MCAT.

By the way, I'm not trying to be discouraging or negative. My general feeling is that if you want it bad enough, ADCOMs can only delay you from starting medical school. That said, the road ahead will be long and difficult and understanding that from the start is important, IMO.

Also, once you receive your PhD, you certainly have options other than medicine and I'd certainly consider those as well before you make a decision that will likely involve spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and a number of years (probably at least 10 before you finish residency). Certainly it could be possible and perhaps even likely that you'd have your own lab by then if you continued along the research track. That's just some food for thought. As I said above, if becoming a physician is really what you want to do, then by all means, go for it.
 
By the way, I'm not trying to be discouraging or negative.
Don't worry about it. I value honesty much more than being politically correct and worrying about others "feelings".
My general feeling is that if you want it bad enough, ADCOMs can only delay you from starting medical school. That said, the road ahead will be long and difficult and understanding that from the start is important, IMO.
Again, thanks for the honesty. After reading what others are going through, I think I have a good idea what I'm up against.

Also, once you receive your PhD, you certainly have options other than medicine and I'd certainly consider those as well before you make a decision that will likely involve spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and a number of years (probably at least 10 before you finish residency).
It's likely to be much more than 10 years until I'm done with my residency considering the specialty I'm interested in.
Certainly it could be possible and perhaps even likely that you'd have your own lab by then if you continued along the research track.
Believe me, I've thought about this many times. If I wanted to be just a researcher there is no way I would consider going to med school.
As I said above, if becoming a physician is really what you want to do, then by all means, go for it.
That's the plan! I honestly don't care how long it takes, I am going to med school, and I'm going to be a physician-scientist.
 
Easy fellas...

Bottom line as I see it: Undergrad grades are a large part of what makes or breaks you as a med school applicant as AMCAS doesn't use graduate classes to compute GPA.

AMCAS included my graduate classes in my GPA when I applied (MD class of 2009, maybe they have changed formulas). What I heard on the interview trail was that medically relevant graduate work (including neuroscience) is weighted very heavily and remote undergrad work is not very important. My interviewers wanted to know what kept me from succeeding as an undergrad, but the stock "young & dumb" answer satisfied them. You don't need to do any coursework-just finish your pre-reqs at a reputable school (NO community colleges, Devry, University of Phoenix, anything like that) and get a great MCAT score.

p.s. The MCAT is 70% reasoning and 30% basic science knowledge-you'll ace it. People who get low MCAT scores are the ones who parrot back the textbook without understanding what anything actually means.
 
Unfortunately, they separate the gpas now. They will definitely take the PhD into acct, tho.

To the OP, it sounds like you have a good attitude, good luck.
 
AMCAS included my graduate classes in my GPA when I applied (MD class of 2009, maybe they have changed formulas). What I heard on the interview trail was that medically relevant graduate work (including neuroscience) is weighted very heavily and remote undergrad work is not very important. My interviewers wanted to know what kept me from succeeding as an undergrad, but the stock "young & dumb" answer satisfied them. You don't need to do any coursework-just finish your pre-reqs at a reputable school (NO community colleges, Devry, University of Phoenix, anything like that) and get a great MCAT score.

p.s. The MCAT is 70% reasoning and 30% basic science knowledge-you'll ace it. People who get low MCAT scores are the ones who parrot back the textbook without understanding what anything actually means.

Interesting perspective...anybody else have a similar experience?

If what you say about the MCAT is true then all I really need to do is brush up on the material. I scored ridiculously high on the reasoning part of the GRE (back when it was a scored section, not an essay). I'm really giving away just how old I am!

BTW what schools did you get interviews at?
 
I sort of agree about the MCAT. There is a broad, but shallow body of info on the test and it favors good test takers.
 
Unfortunately, they separate the gpas now. They will definitely take the PhD into acct, tho.

To the OP, it sounds like you have a good attitude, good luck.

Thanks drizzt3117.
 
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BBA cgpa 3.6
MBA cgpa 2.88

History of family, social and medical problems

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am crazy enough to dream of attending a med school in usa.

Major obstracles:

No permanant residence status
NO prereqs
Finances

I am planning to start a business to curb the financial problems

How do i go about solving the other problems?
 
I think people on this site don't appreciate the work that is involved in a PhD. While I am not in med school "many others here who are giving their 2 cents worth aren't either", I personally think you'll be fine with low ug score, decent MCAT, and PhD. After all a PhD requires original research, and thesis defense by a panel of experts who's main goal in life is to rip your research to shreads, and not give you the degree that you think you have earned.
Saylorsdad, what you've said is logical, but unfortunately, that's not how med school admissions works. Anyone who has ever applied can tell you how *illogical* the whole process is. :p

OP, I am another PhD-to-MD now in my second year of med school. As others have already told you, no, your grad school grades do not completely make up for your UG performance. I feel ya on the core courses (I had to take some of them also, and I wound up in organic chemistry!), but nobody promised that life would be fair. I can also tell you from personal experience that even if you absolutely ace the MCAT, it *still* won't entirely make up for your GPA. I applied with no UG grades or GPA (my college was P/F), but I had a 43 on the MCAT and a 4.0 GPA for my PhD. In the end, things worked out well for me, but it wasn't very pleasant at the beginning when the pre-secondary and pre-interview rejections were rolling in. Let's put it this way: I submitted my AMCAS on June 1, and I was looking for post docs by August.

You want to go to med school. Ok, then, my advice to you is the following:

1) Get over your feeling about having to take classes with kids who are just out of high school. Unlike us nontrads, they have perfect college records or close to it, and those same kids are going to whip your butt into shape once you start taking med school classes with them or others just like them. They're young, but the best of them are your future med school colleagues. Never forget that, and treat them accordingly. You are going to be older than most of the upperclassmen and most of the residents you encounter, but they will be the ones telling you what to do because they know more about medicine than you do. No one will care that you have a PhD, and making a big deal out of it is about the one thing you can do to guarantee that these people will do their level best to make your med school years a living hell.

2) You have major damage control to do, and yes, that will almost certainly require taking UG level classes unless you do an SMP. You don't necessarily have to repeat the pre-reqs, but it may not be a bad idea for you to do it because you need to know that info cold for the MCAT anyway.

3) Speaking of the MCAT, take nothing for granted. I've spent over a decade teaching for Kaplan, and IMHO, having a PhD does *not* mean that you're going to ace this test. If anything, my PhD MCAT students have had a tendency to over-think questions. In addition, statistically, older students on average do worse on the MCAT than younger students do; the generation gap is considerable. Finally, getting a 40+ score on the MCAT is not a realistic goal, nor is it necessary. The test is curved, and only a handful of test-takers will be able to achieve a score that high. Obviously, you should score as high as you possibly can, but don't go into this thinking that a 40+ MCAT A) will make your GPA problems go away, or B) is a score that most people can realistically achieve.

4) I agree with the posters who suggested that you consider applying to DO programs, since they will accept replacement grades instead of averaging them with your old grades like AMCAS does.

Best of luck to you. :)
 
Another PhD-to-MD here who feels that a PhD does not play a massive role in medical school admissions. I'm an MSIII at an allopathic school and, barring a few research-focused med schools, the PhD does not help a great deal. Most state schools could care less. The attributes needed to earn a PhD are just so massively different from those required for success in medical school. Directors of Admissions (and especially at UMD - I have experience, believe me) are understandably vague when asked the question: "will you accept me?" Once you've applied, the process is pretty much self-sorting, using the undergraduate GPA and MCAT as MAJOR selection tools for inviting applicants to interview.

It's tough to know the best strategy, but it really boils down to how far the OP is willing to go. I've known people with very low undergraduate GPA's to follow one or more of the following routes: 1) earn another undergraduate degree, 2) attend medical school overseas, 3) apply to D.O. schools after some damage control on the undergraduate GPA. Option 2 is not for the faint-hearted, and it's expensive, but if you are dedicated, there are definitely medical schools outside of the U.S. that will accept you.

Good luck - whatever you decide - and don't give up if this is really what you want to do. Just be careful about listening to people who have not been where you are on the way to where you want to go.
 
Another PhD-to-MD here who feels that a PhD does not play a massive role in medical school admissions. I'm a MSIII at an allopathic school and, barring a few research-focused med schools, the PhD does not help a great deal.
Here's the thing, research oriented schools are exactly the type of schools I want to go to. I want to be a physician-researcher who focuses on patient-oriented research. I want to go to med school so that I can experience and treat the diseases I have supposedly been doing research on.
The attributes needed to earn a PhD are just so massively different from those required for success in medical school.
I totally agree with this and its one of the reasons I see myself going to med school and doing a surgical specialty. No offense meant to other grad students but I find you guys extremely boring! I gravitate towards med students, they are much more animated and involved in everything...very 'type A personality'. I feel more alive when I'm interacting with them.
It's tough to know the best strategy, but it really boils down to how far the OP is willing to go. I've known people with very low undergraduate GPA's to follow one or more of the following routes: 1) earn another undergraduate degree, 2) attend medical school overseas, 3) apply to D.O. schools after some damage control on the undergraduate GPA. Option 2 is not for the faint-hearted, and it's expensive, but if you are dedicated, there are definitely medical schools outside of the U.S. that will accept you.
I've been trying to get as much info as possible, which includes speaking with current med students of UMB (I live with two of them, both MD/PhD's). I've heard about different routes people (friends of my roomate) have taken and some of them haven't worked. One of the most common things I've heard is that those who have used post-bacc programs to try to make up for poor GPA's don't get in. These 'post-bacc' individuals tended to neglect extracurriculars. Of the three paths you've outlined above, which were successful?

Good luck - whatever you decide - and don't give up if this is really what you want to do. Just be careful about listening to people who have not been where you are on the way to where you want to go.
Thanks for the advice!
 
Here's the thing, research oriented schools are exactly the type of schools I want to go to.

Another PhD -> MD here. I agree with ScottishChap the the PhD is of very marginal value in the application process. Even with your doctorate providing some help, research oriented schools tend to attract candidates with insanely good numbers across the board. It's not that you won't inherently deserve a spot, it's that your competition will be far better positioned to come out on top.

If you want to attend a domestic allopathic med school, the bottom line is that you will have to raise your undergraduate GPA or do an SMP. As mentioned above, AMCAS does not overwrite old grades when you retake classes. That makes your job a lot harder, but unless you're banking on being a statistical anomaly there is no way around it.

On a more personal note, I'm a 34 year old PGY-3, and I'm not feeling like a spring chicken these days. I've got $143K in debt, zero retirement savings, and I live in a shoebox. And this is after starting med school at 27. If I were 30 and looking at the hill you have to climb, I wouldn't have the gumption to begin. I'm not trying to discourage you, but as I edge closer to middle age it's becoming evident just how much financial catchup I'm going to need. It's daunting.
 
Graduate work counts for very little in the admissions process. I think it's about the same as some extracuricular activities, like gee it's nice that this candidate did some overseas volunteer work. I have a master's degree and 10 years of research experience before I applied. I think the work experience helped me more than my advanced degree. It seems totally unfair, but at best your PhD might be able to help you overcome a slightly lower than average GPA (by that I mean 3.4 not 2.5).

One reason I've heard that they don't look too closely at graduate work is that the grading is much easier. Again this doesn't seem fair, but there is nothing fair about the admissions process.

If your main goal is to get into a research school, then the DO or foreign school options probably aren't the best for you. You'll have to figure out a way to bring up the UG gpa. That being said, it's pretty much impossible to get your gpa to the levels that you would need to get into a top research school. Even if you did another 120 UG credits at 4.0, your UG gpa would be around 3.25. This still wouldn't cut it for a competitive research school.

So what should you do?
First, I would try to make an appointment with the admissions office of a few med schools. Try to get together all the info for your application before the meeting. Say here is where I am at now, what should I do to be a competitive app? These are the people who you need advice from. There may be one or two people who you find receptive to helping you out. Forge a relationship with that person as they are the ones who will be making a decision about your future. If they get to know you and see you as someone who can succeed, they will be more likely to admit you when the time comes.

You can get into med school if you come up with a realistic plan to improve your stats and are willing to put in the time.
 
Thanks again to everyone giving advice. gman, I really like your idea of forging relationships with adcom members. I'll get on that.

I'm not sure an SMP would be all that helpful; since its a graduate program it won't raise my undergrad GPA. High quality post-bacc programs that are linked tend to be geared for those with high a UG GPA but no pre-reqs. I have the opposite situation.
 
I totally agree with this and its one of the reasons I see myself going to med school and doing a surgical specialty. No offense meant to other grad students but I find you guys extremely boring! I gravitate towards med students, they are much more animated and involved in everything...very 'type A personality'. I feel more alive when I'm interacting with them.
No offense meant to you either, but this statement is completely asinine considering that *you* are a grad student, and most of us who are responding to you are med students. I don't know which strikes me as being funnier: the implication that you, the sole grad student posting on this thread, must therefore be extremely boring; or the idea that I must have magically transformed into a much more animated, driven, and interesting person in the last couple of years since I started med school. :laugh:
 
He's not the only grad student posting here, I finished my masters last summer, and began taking the undergrad prereq's for med school. I know how it feels to be 31 years old and be in class with 18 year olds, pretty sad. The only thing I can chime in on is that I beat their pants off on all but one test, and on that test I had an A in the bag if I made above a 30 so there was no need to study. If I am not accepted before next year I will begin working on PhD.
 
Another PhD to MD. I echo much of the excellent advice above.

The thought process in grad school research is really completely different from that in med school learning, and it will hamper you immensely to try to apply that deep scholarly thought to your med school classes. You will go insane as you realize you have to memorize a huge pile of crap, and you will take endless multiple-choice tests to test your memorization abilities. Kids with photographic memories will kick your PhD-level ass.

Med school admissions and everything else are not logical. I had to take English prereqs, for goodness' sake, when I had been working as a professional writer/editor and had 27 published papers in peer-reviewed journals. They simply do not give a crap about your PhD other than that it's a nice EC, UNLESS it's with a med-school affiliated researcher at the place you're applying, or it's very close to medicine.

The 2.5 is a rock dragging down your application. You must have recent UG coursework with top grades, even if you think it's ridiculous. I have seen far too many excellent applicants get rejected from my med school because of bad UG grades like that. In many places, you will never make it past the GPA screen. Q is right too, you cannot assume that you will get an excellent MCAT score; it's completely different from the GRE. It takes work, preparation, strategy, and luck.

In addition, you must think realistically about your chances of getting your research funded, if you enter a research field at 40 or later. Like it or not, funding is a highly political process, and in many fields is skewed toward funding the young and new, not the old and new. You will need superb connections with powerful people.

I think you need to think long and hard about exactly what the MD is going to do for you. If you want to do research, not clinical practice, it will be a very costly way to go and will take years, with benefits that are not clear to me.

good luck
 
::sigh::

I've been reading this forum for a while and I will stray from being redundant suffice it to say that there are many of us PhD's (or soon-to-be) out there. I learned early on that I should focus on the two pillars of admission to medical school: GPA and MCAT. As mentioned before, it is very unreasonable and unfair. In light of this I have taken on my post-bacc work along with my graduate work. Not an easy task.

If you frequent these forums looking for reassurance you may find some. But the overall picture, from what I've gathered, is that us non-trads are competing with younger students on the same level. Being a PhD doesn't really put us at that great of an advantage. I even asked a visiting admissions officer from the local med school here and he said, "It won't matter".

I hear it simply isn't as good an indicator of med school performance as the aforementioned stats.
 
He's not the only grad student posting here, I finished my masters last summer, and began taking the undergrad prereq's for med school. I know how it feels to be 31 years old and be in class with 18 year olds, pretty sad. The only thing I can chime in on is that I beat their pants off on all but one test, and on that test I had an A in the bag if I made above a 30 so there was no need to study. If I am not accepted before next year I will begin working on PhD.
It's great that you have been doing so well in your classes. I hope you keep up that kind of performance, because it will really help you strengthen your app. But you kind of missed the point of my post, which was not to emphasize the Meatus is the only current grad student. My point is this: nearly *all* of us posting on this thread, including you, are *former* grad students. By insulting grad students, he insults himself the most. Those of us who were previously grad students and are now in med school have not suddenly become different people than we were several years ago when we were grad students. For example, I have *always* been a type A personality; the reason why I went to a college with no grades is because I was so caught up in making straight As in high school and being class valedictorian that I had lost sight of the real purpose of going to school, which is to get an education.

To go into this process with the attitude that you shouldn't have to follow the same rules as the trads do, and that you deserve to get special treatment just because you <gasp> went to GRAD SCHOOL, is going to bring you tons of grief. Many college classes let you be a big fish in a small pond; the academic performance and abilities of your medical school classmates will almost certainly be significantly higher than what you're seeing right now, because the vast majority of your "mediocre" college classmates won't ever make it into medical school.

I guess what I'm really pleading for here is a little bit of humility from those of you who are trying to be PhDs-to-MDs (or in your case, MS-to-MD). People like us are *not* unique, and we neither deserve nor receive special treatment from adcoms when it comes to meeting the requirements for getting into and making it through med school. Even PhDs applying to med school are pretty common, and people with MS degrees are very common. At the risk of being overly repetitive, having a grad degree does not make you special once you get here, either. Medicine is a hierarchy. Regardless of your age or previous degrees, you start at the bottom as a freshman, and you work your way up to become an upperclassman, a resident, and then an attending. While you are on the bottom of the food chain, you will take orders from those above you, even if they are a decade younger than you are. Your "peers" will be the trad students in your classes with you, and you will not have a leg up on them just because you have an MS except during the one week or two when you are covering your particular area of expertise.

I honestly hope (as much as I can hope for a total stranger!) that you and Meatus are able to go to med school. But I have to tell you that some of the thoughts that you guys are expressing about resenting having to take classes with trads are pretty counterproductive and could even prevent you from achieving your dream if you persist with this line of thinking. Just something to think about from someone who has already been there and done that. :luck: to you. :)
 
i agree that phds are looked at as pretty much just an extra ec-with a few exceptions... there is a glut of phd programs and a glut of phds. its honestly not THAT hard to get into a phd program. i'm not trying to sound rude, but neuroscience at UMBC isn't very good-its' just not. there aren't top notch researchers there, people aren't publishing in cell, science and nature on a regular basis. i think your phd is going to count for a lot more if you came from a really top lab, have serious (i.e. high impact) publications under your belt that can actually be translated to medicine etc. etc. coming from a mediocre phd program where you probably have mediocre publications really isn't going to impress anybody in med schools. and even worse--if you have the attitude that it should impress people-then you'll really piss them off.
 
Q's advice is spot-on, as always.

Just thought I'd add the perspective of a PhD currently interviewing at med schools. From what I have seen, the PhD *is* regarded as just another interesting EC by adcoms. However, the importance of having interesting ECs in this process should not be underestimated. The uniqueness of your ECs sets you apart from among the thousands of other high-stat applicants applying to schools. It gets you noticed and gets you interviews. My PhD is in the humanities, so it may be even more unusual than most. I am pretty certain that if I did not have this unusual/weird "EC," I would not have gotten the attention of many of the schools that have given me interviews.

The essential follow-up point is that, as with all ECs, the PhD counts only if you have a solid foundation, i.e. GPA/MCAT. I do think there is a little room here for strong parts of the app to compensate for weak parts, but not a ton of room. My BCMP (3.6) is way below average for some of the schools I am interviewing at, even after a year of coursework to make up for bad prereq grades 10+ years ago. At the same time, I am fortunate to have an above-average MCAT (40). Without the MCAT and a minimally decent BCMP, I am certain my application would seriously lack credibility. The take-home message is that adcoms seem to look at the "whole package," but there are limits to the extent that any single part of the app can make up for weak areas.

As to sitting in science classes with folks ten years younger than me... gosh, I don't really give any thought to this. Q is absolutely right that when we hit med school, we have to be okay with being supervised/directed by people eight or ten years younger than us. Sometimes it strikes me that if I gone the tenure-track academic job path, some of my students would be the same age as my classmates and peers next year... but that's okay. Heck, I am dead certain that in many ways, some of my 22- and 23-year old classmates next year will have a lot MORE life experience than I do. The process of getting a humanities PhD, in and of itself, is just not conducive to developing emotional maturity and practical wisdom.

I wish the best of luck to all you PhDs. It CAN be done, but for better or worse, the rules we have to play by are the rules contstructed for traditional applicants who are at most one or two years out of college.
 
Can I just point out the irony here: the very people that have told me a PhD won't matter in the admissions process are usually stated by those who hold a PhD. So the judgment of whether we will succeed in med school is made by someone who's education on the matter isn't enough to go to the school they are judging? That’s why I gave the guy a strange look because he was "belittling" both of us.

I know this is huge generalization but you can see the humor.
 
Just thought I'd add the perspective of a PhD currently interviewing at med schools. From what I have seen, the PhD *is* regarded as just another interesting EC by adcoms. However, the importance of having interesting ECs in this process should not be underestimated. The uniqueness of your ECs sets you apart from among the thousands of other high-stat applicants applying to schools. It gets you noticed and gets you interviews. My PhD is in the humanities, so it may be even more unusual than most. I am pretty certain that if I did not have this unusual/weird "EC," I would not have gotten the attention of many of the schools that have given me interviews.

The essential follow-up point is that, as with all ECs, the PhD counts only if you have a solid foundation, i.e. GPA/MCAT. I do think there is a little room here for strong parts of the app to compensate for weak parts, but not a ton of room. My BCMP (3.6) is way below average for some of the schools I am interviewing at, even after a year of coursework to make up for bad prereq grades 10+ years ago. At the same time, I am fortunate to have an above-average MCAT (40). Without the MCAT and a minimally decent BCMP, I am certain my application would seriously lack credibility. The take-home message is that adcoms seem to look at the "whole package," but there are limits to the extent that any single part of the app can make up for weak areas.
TarHeel, what you said is dead on. Your PhD is unusual and interesting; your UG GPA is average for medical school students (and within range of accepted applicants at most if not all schools); and your MCAT score is vastly superior to the majority of applicants and far above the average of any school in the country. You would be an academically competitive applicant even without your PhD, and having it is icing on the cake. I'm sure you'll do very well with your apps. :luck:

Can I just point out the irony here: the very people that have told me a PhD won't matter in the admissions process are usually stated by those who hold a PhD. So the judgment of whether we will succeed in med school is made by someone who's education on the matter isn't enough to go to the school they are judging? That’s why I gave the guy a strange look because he was "belittling" both of us.

I know this is huge generalization but you can see the humor.
I'm not sure whether to say if I disagree with you here, because maybe I'm just not understanding your point. :oops: Many PhDs have extensive experience teaching premeds and interviewing them on adcoms, and many medical school professors are PhDs as well. So if these PhDs you've talked to are comparing your undergraduate academic performance to that of the hundreds or thousands of other premeds they have encountered over the course of their career, they probably do have a pretty good basis upon which to judge your competitiveness for med school admissions. That's not the same as saying that having a PhD makes you "not educated enough" to go to med school. I don't think any PhD would say that having a PhD means that you are inherently not qualified for med school! It's just that earning a PhD is not the stepping stone to make your app competitive enough to get into med school that some people wrongly assume it will be.
 
Another PhD -> MD here. I agree with ScottishChap the the PhD is of very marginal value in the application process. Even with your doctorate providing some help, research oriented schools tend to attract candidates with insanely good numbers across the board. It's not that you won't inherently deserve a spot, it's that your competition will be far better positioned to come out on top.

If you want to attend a domestic allopathic med school, the bottom line is that you will have to raise your undergraduate GPA or do an SMP. As mentioned above, AMCAS does not overwrite old grades when you retake classes. That makes your job a lot harder, but unless you're banking on being a statistical anomaly there is no way around it.

On a more personal note, I'm a 34 year old PGY-3, and I'm not feeling like a spring chicken these days. I've got $143K in debt, zero retirement savings, and I live in a shoebox. And this is after starting med school at 27. If I were 30 and looking at the hill you have to climb, I wouldn't have the gumption to begin. I'm not trying to discourage you, but as I edge closer to middle age it's becoming evident just how much financial catchup I'm going to need. It's daunting.

Hey. Off the subject of the original poster. But, I understand your fiancial concerns. However, keep in mind that, depending on what you're specializing in, it doesn't take TOO many good years of income to make up for a whole lot.
I don't want to get into numbers, but this is very true and I know MANY people that didn't start making decent cash until their 40's etc. If you live smart, and invest wisely, you can kill off your debt, put some nice money away in an IRA and live a good life.

I could give some encouraging examples, but don't want to get into anecdotes.
 
Hey. Off the subject of the original poster. But, I understand your fiancial concerns. However, keep in mind that, depending on what you're specializing in, it doesn't take TOO many good years of income to make up for a whole lot.

Oooohhhhh.... I know. From a monetary standpoint I've always considered med school as an investment that will pay off. In five years I'll likely be feeling much better about the whole thing, but for now I feel like the human embodiment of red ink. It's depressing enough as it is... if I were 40 and in the same situation I'd probably be speaking with Jack quite frequently.
 
So, I'm in my (hopefully) last year of PhD work, and I like the rest of you I want to go to medical school. Let's not dwell on the why, but the how...

I've got an UG GPA around 2.5 for both in major (Biological Sciences) and overall. I have been noticing how important UG grades are since I read about it all over the web, this site, and here it from advisors and even the admissions office where I am now. I contacted the pre-med advisor at my UG institution and he basically said don't waste your time or money trying to correct my UG GPA by going back to take classes I already have (still need orgo2 w/lab).

My question: Is this sound advice (i.e. is it really worth it to spend 2 or 3 years repeating UG classes which will have a small effect on my UG GPA)?

P.S. I am planning on taking a Kaplan course after studying for a year for the MCAT (while doing a post-doc). I'd like to blow them away with the MCAT score. I'm also volunteering in the OR here as well, which is awesome BTW. Basically I'd like to make the rest of my app as competative as humanly possible, but do I need to repeat half my UG to do so?

What say ye?

What is your PhD in? It sounds unfair to me to make a person with a PhD in natural sciences to go back and retake science courses. But, then again, life sucks, doesn't it? :(
 
Hey. Off the subject of the original poster. But, I understand your fiancial concerns. However, keep in mind that, depending on what you're specializing in, it doesn't take TOO many good years of income to make up for a whole lot.
I don't want to get into numbers, but this is very true and I know MANY people that didn't start making decent cash until their 40's etc. If you live smart, and invest wisely, you can kill off your debt, put some nice money away in an IRA and live a good life.

I could give some encouraging examples, but don't want to get into anecdotes.

In regards to the OP though, finances should be a serious consideration. Realistically, the OP stands a relatively small chance at acceptance into medical school (not arguing, just relaying facts from MSAR). Spending a few more years going into more debt doing more UG level work doesn't make a lot of financial sense given this reality.

My question as a non-PhD... how do you get into a PhD program with a 2.5?
 
Wow, this thread blew up since I last checked in!

cel083: My PhD will be in Neuroscience

Flopotomist: I got into grad school by having great recommendations, a high GRE score and schmoozing really well at interviews.

TarHeel55: Thanks for the straight forward advice. It's exactly what I was looking for.

QofQuimica: I apologize if you felt insulted by my recent post. I should have phrased it a bit differently perhaps, and I wasn't aiming the statement directly at you or other grad students on the board. Obviously any grad students who are reading this thread are considering going to med school if they haven't already applied. I think its fair to assume that they don't fit the stereotypical grad student profile. With this in mind, my earlier statement about 'you guys' being boring was clearly inaccurate and I am sorry about that. Actually, I really can't say anything about anyone on this board because I don't know any of you personally.

But come on! Most (not all) of the grad students that I have known do fit the stereotypical profile and can be pretty boring. My intent with my earlier comment was to say that I like med students, no matter what route they took to medical school. There's an energy about them that I just don't see in my current classmates.

After volunteering in the hospital for a couple of weeks, a certain contrast has become very clear between the people I see around the department and people I see at the hospital. Maybe the grass just seems greener...but one thing is certain, life moves much faster in the Trauma OR.
 
QofQuimica: I apologize if you felt insulted by my recent post. I should have phrased it a bit differently perhaps, and I wasn't aiming the statement directly at you or other grad students on the board. Obviously any grad students who are reading this thread are considering going to med school if they haven't already applied. I think its fair to assume that they don't fit the stereotypical grad student profile. With this in mind, my earlier statement about 'you guys' being boring was clearly inaccurate and I am sorry about that. Actually, I really can't say anything about anyone on this board because I don't know any of you personally.

But come on! Most (not all) of the grad students that I have known do fit the stereotypical profile and can be pretty boring. My intent with my earlier comment was to say that I like med students, no matter what route they took to medical school. There's an energy about them that I just don't see in my current classmates.

After volunteering in the hospital for a couple of weeks, a certain contrast has become very clear between the people I see around the department and people I see at the hospital. Maybe the grass just seems greener...but one thing is certain, life moves much faster in the Trauma OR.
I wasn't really insulted. Like I said, you pretty much mainly insulted yourself, because *you* are the grad student, and *I* am a med student. :laugh:

Joking aside though, I really don't agree with you. Maybe you're kind of romanticizing med students, or maybe we just know different people, because I don't find med students to be all that different in terms of energy or level of interestingness versus grad students. They *do* perhaps have better UG grades on average, but that isn't particularly interesting IMHO. Shrug.
 
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