No Free Lunch

[StealthDog]

What do you all think of this?

No Free Lunch

Are our choices influenced by free lunches? Are we as vulnerable as our med student counterparts? Do you think your school would be open to the idea of holding a "No Free Lunch" lunch?

I know we were greeted with Hills backpacks as first years, and Hills bought our nutrition texts... Not to mention the Fort Dodge/Novartis/Bayer/etc lunch meetings and free product throughout the year.

Can we remain unbiased in our choices while still taking free lunches?

[Slothbear]

excellent question.

I think it is really strange that schools have student reps to the drug companies. I recognize that these companies do have good products, but our future choices as vets should not be influenced purely by our logical evaluation of products, not by the fact that we get free Hill's pet food. Now that being said, do I go to free lunches? Yep -- I'm poor -- but I usually study during them anyway. Am I deluding myself? Is it possible that being aware of the insidious influence of the drug companies will make it less likely that you will fall prey to their slick promotionals?

[PAThbrd]

I love free lunch

Honestly, a lot of our lunch talks are very useful talks with good clinical information with only a minor (if any) product pitch. We also have some very critical people who aren't afraid to ask the drug reps difficult questions so I feel like they don't ever get a chance to pull a fast one on us. I think most all of us are a little harder to buy over than a slice of pizza or some good chinese food, anyways.

[ri23]

I also love the free lunches. If you've made it to vet school you're most likely capable of forming your own opinions. For example, I went to the Banfield talk (despite the fact that I hate banfield) for the free lunch. I listened and asked questions, and I still hold true to my original opinion of the company. Also, as Deanna said, many of the free lunches come with some interesting lectures. When you are a vet you are going to get the same type of thing, drug reps selling their products to you and you need to be able to differentiate between what they are saying and the efficacy of the product. Mine as well start now and get a few free lunches .

[WhtsThFrequency]

Judging by the fact that every vet's office is stocked sky-high with Hill's products, I am not sure.

However, I think the newer "generation" of vets are more open-minded than some of the older ones out there (not to discount their knowledge of course!) - there is so much more information out now, we don't take companies for granted like we used to. I think students are thinking more critically nowadays. Hopefully.

[Bill59]

Almost everyone thinks they can't be bought and things like free lunches, free dog food, etc. won't influence their prescribing practices. However, most studies have shown that these things do influence physicians' practices. I'm not aware of any studies of veterinarians but is there any reason to think we would be different?

And of course the drug and dog food manufacturers know this is effective. Why do you think they do it?

[Electrophile]

Originally Posted by Bill59

Almost everyone thinks they can' be bought and things like free lunches, free dog food, etc. won't influence their prescribing practices. However, most studies have shown that these things do influence physicians' practices. I'm not aware of any studies of veterinarians but is there any reason to think we would be different?

And of course the drug and dog food manufacturers know this is effective. Why do you think they do it?

My husband's degree is in marketing and he absolutely agrees. There is no way Big Pharma is just doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. In addition, I think it is even worse with vets because doctors don't sell the drugs out of their own offices. But vets do and can and do make profits off of the drugs that we prescribe. One of the vets I shadowed with had low fees for his office visits and spays and neuters (which is necessary as a rural vet to get people to come in), but he had to mark up his drugs quite a bit.

In addition, physicians aren't selling food, "prescription" or otherwise. That's another reason I don't like Banfield...I'd heard from a vet tech friend of mine that you are only allowed to recommend foods that they sell (Royal Canin, Science Diet, etc).

Personally, I don't take much in the way of free products unless it's something I use already or I'm required to use (ex: we have to use a heartwormer and a flea/tick topical for doing therapy dog visits for the therapy dog club, they provide Frontline and Heartgard for us to use). I also don't like being a walking billboard for drug companies or the food companies, so any free scrubs we get, I either give them to someone else or just use in the dissection lab or palpation lab. No sense in slopping cow crap or formalin all over my good scrubs. I also didn't take a free Hill's backpack for rather obvious reasons. Plus a lot of people I know with the Hill's backpacks said they break really easily anyways.

[LittleBit]

I think feeding vet students is a very effective marketing tool. But, it also gives us, as vet students, a chance to meet the drug reps, hear about their products & new research.

At first, I went to every lunch meeting, but now I'm more selective. I go to meetings where I like the drug reps and don't feel like I'm talking to a used car salesman. Also, if they're presenting a relevant topic, or a new angle, I'll be more apt to go.

I think lunch meetings are great during vet school, they give us, as students, opportunities to meet & interact with the spokespeople for companies that we'll be dealing with later. It's important to see who the companies hire & how they present themselves (more so now, when we're relatively unimportant & un-influential than when we're owning practices or in more decisive roles). I also think it's important to at least recognize the big pharmaceutical names in the industry, even if you don't buy into their products. And, knowing the current research & development of vaccines or drugs helps keep us informed on new issues in the profession.

[VAgirl]

Originally Posted by LittleBit

And, knowing the current research & development of vaccines or drugs helps keep us informed on new issues in the profession.

Of course, this information can be presented with bias, even unintentional bias. And some would argue that subtle bias is more insidious than obvious bias, since at least when it's obvious one can more clearly identify it and know what they're dealing with.

...just to play devil's advocate.

[bclover]

Just had to jump in here...

This is just a reality of business and another avenue to get information out, and, yes, hopefully influence a possible future sale. These companies obviously have product promotional and marketing plans that include building a relationship with the newest entrants into the veterinary market segment. (And they have a job to do, too.)

The old adage, that 'people sell people' comes into play here as they are trying to build that relationship with you (either personally or with their organization) through information, and yes, sometimes free lunches. In fact, consider that you will in essence be selling yourself and your practice down the road. Additionally, as the consumer it is up to you to be informed and to make your OWN decisions - only you can determine how these types of things/events influence you.

I realize that his may not be the popular response, and I could get flamed, or lightly singed for these thoughts, but as a sales specialist for 20 years I can reinforce that the significance of sharing information to potential clients in order to differentiate yourself, your company and your products, is crucial. With that in mind, I think that this is an excellent avenue for the veterinary suppliers to accomplish that very thing. Now it's up to us to weed through the sales pitch.

And, finally, please be careful not to brush 'sales' with a broad negative brush - we are all selling and buying 'something' all of the time!

[Bill59]

Originally Posted by bclover

And, finally, please be careful not to brush 'sales' with a broad negative brush - we are all selling and buying 'something' all of the time!

But we aren't buying these products, we're recommending them. When a veterinarian prescribes a drug or recommends a diet, that recommendation should be based only on what's best for the patient/client. The client has every right to expect that our recommendations are based on scientific data of benefit and risk, not on whether the manufacturer's rep bought us a cheese pizza.

And why do I need to get my information from a sales person anyway? I've been trained in pharmacology and evidence-based medicine. I have access to the scientific literature and know how to evaluate clinical studies. And if I have any questions, I can ask any one of dozens of specialists in the field -- not someone with a BA in marketing who's working on commission and got his or her job based more on their looks and personality than their clinical expertise (is that a broad enough brush for ya)

[bclover]

Originally Posted by Bill59

But we aren't buying these products, we're recommending them. When a veterinarian prescribes a drug or recommends a diet, that recommendation should be based only on what's best for the patient/client. The client has every right to expect that our recommendations are based on scientific data of benefit and risk, not on whether the manufacturer's rep bought us a cheese pizza.

And why do I need to get my information from a sales person anyway? I've been trained in pharmacology and evidence-based medicine. I have access to the scientific literature and know how to evaluate clinical studies. And if I have any questions, I can ask any one of dozens of specialists in the field -- not someone with a BA in marketing who's working on commission and got his or her job based more on their looks and personality than their clinical expertise (is that a broad enough brush for ya)

Hey, like I said, I just wanted to jump in and share my thoughts on this from another perspective.

First, yes, as the owner of a clinic you do buy the drugs, feed, etc., that you inventory. Second, just because information comes from a company doesn't mean it isn't scientific or evidence-based - who do you think funds most research? And, my point exactly was that if someone can be bought off by a pizza, that's a whole different issue/problem - it doesn't make the provider of the pizza a crook or you an accomplice by eating it.

And, as for sales reps, there are alot of us in specific fields with very scientific training/education - not just BA's with winning personalities - and many of us don't work on commission.

Finally, my comment about selling at the end was in reference to the fact that you sold yourself to get into vet school and will continue to do so to your clients, or to earn a research project, etc., etc. Bottom line - not all sales/sales people are like the infamous used car salesman.

[banditalfi]

Originally Posted by Bill59

Almost everyone thinks they can't be bought and things like free lunches, free dog food, etc. won't influence their prescribing practices. However, most studies have shown that these things do influence physicians' practices. I'm not aware of any studies of veterinarians but is there any reason to think we would be different?

And of course the drug and dog food manufacturers know this is effective. Why do you think they do it?

After doing the books with one of the vets I worked with, I understand where you're coming from. Because he owns a small one doctor practice with a big overhead he is always looking for ways to save a little money, if possible. So if Company A is offering a drug to treat some illness and Company B is offering a similar drug for the same price, but has a little extras thrown in, of course he's going to go for B. Ultimately, I think people are going to buy the products that they need and if it comes down to bonuses or free dog food, then why shouldn't the vets get the freebees?

[StealthDog]

And, as for sales reps, there are alot of us in specific fields with very scientific training/education - not just BA's with winning personalities - and many of us don't work on commission.

Not trying to attack, but in the spirit of friendly debate, I would counter with:

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
~Upton Sinclair

Commission or no, sales reps still get paid to make their product/company/etc look good, and while it might be convenient to get your education about products from reps, I think vets still have a responsibility to stay up to date using as many other (evidence-based) sources as possible. That could be CE, or VIN, or conferences, or journals, but all of those are less convenient and cost more money than learning from reps who come to the clinic and provide dinner.

I do believe that hearing from reps over a free lunch biases us as students and future clinicians, although I won't go so far as to say that I refrain from the lunches entirely...

[Bill59]

Originally Posted by bclover

Second, just because information comes from a company doesn't mean it isn't scientific or evidence-based - who do you think funds most research?

My concern is not that the information they provide is invalid, rather it's incomplete. They aren't going to provide data that casts their product in a bad light and they sure as heck aren't going to provide data supporting the use of a competing produce. A

And as I said, I can find and evaluate the information myself, I don't need a sales person to provide it for me. That way I can be assured to get all the relevant information, not just the studies the rep wants me to get.

And, my point exactly was that if someone can be bought off by a pizza, that's a whole different issue/problem - it doesn't make the provider of the pizza a crook or you an accomplice by eating it.

Who said anything about crooks? I know they're just doing their job. And I also know their job is to provide selective information and other enticements that will convince me to recommend their product.

But my bigger point was that nobody thinks they can be bought. But the research suggests otherwise.

Thanks for the discussion, I think it's an important topic.

[bclover]

Originally Posted by Bill59

My concern is not that the information they provide is invalid, rather it's incomplete. They aren't going to provide data that casts their product in a bad light and they sure as heck aren't going to provide data supporting the use of a competing produce. A

And as I said, I can find and evaluate the information myself, I don't need a sales person to provide it for me. That way I can be assured to get all the relevant information, not just the studies the rep wants me to get.



Who said anything about crooks? I know they're just doing their job. And I also know their job is to provide selective information and other enticements that will convince me to recommend their product.

But my bigger point was that nobody thinks they can be bought. But the research suggests otherwise.

Thanks for the discussion, I think it's an important topic.

I agree completely, that we don't need to be naive and think that these types of things don't influence us; on the other hand we also don't want to completely discount information that comes under the auspices of sales/ marketing. In the end, it is just a form of communication.

(For the record, in the industry that I sell into, my not recommending my product and, rather, recommending that of a competitor when it would be a better option is the smartest thing I can do - for the short and long term with my clients.)