Vaccines-Autism

Have a look here: http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/vaccines-autism

The weight of currently available scientific evidence does not support the hypothesis that the MMR vaccine causes autism.

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The link between autism and the MMR vaccine has been thoroughly disproved. The trouble with this debate is that it's getting to the point where it's diverting resources away from other areas of research that might be more fruitful in discovering the cause of/an effective treatment for autism.

Instead this debate gets re-visited over and over and over for some reason. I suspect hidden agendas.

new2pharm said:

I think I must be post-happy today. I know this is a very debated subject and SO over talked about, but as pharmacists, people who are drug experts and drug reaction experts, is there anyone out there with the in depth knowledge that could point out that certain chemicals within childhood vaccines can cause an autistic gene to be expressed. What I mean is, is it possible (or am I completely out of wack) that a dormant allele could be aggrevated by a vaccine chemical and thus cause the autism syptoms to be apparent? Is it possible that someone could have an allele encoding autistic characteristics and it never be expressed?

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Uhhh, lots of things are possible. Whats possible and what the evidence shows have nothing to do with each other.

The evidence shows that there's no association.

I'm not a pharmacist yet, but it seems completely plausible to me that someone could have an autistic gene that is never expressed. Maybe expression of it has nothing to do with vaccine chemicals, but plausible none the less.

Now I haven't really researched this topic much or read the studies, but from what I know the autistic-vaccine link has been proved and also disproved by different groups. So I guess that means nothing has been proved about it...lol. Of course people are going to use the study that sides with their position.

A few weeks ago I saw a case on CNN where a family was getting money from the government after they sued for their child getting autism from a vaccine. Would be interesting to know how they proved it.

The girl in question had a rare mitochondrial disorder and the vaccine exacerbated it.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/06/vaccines.autism/index.html?iref=newssearch

genesis09 said:

The girl in question had a rare mitochondrial disorder and the vaccine exacerbated it.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/06/vaccines.autism/index.html?iref=newssearch

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She was in the People Magazine with Patrick Swayze on the cover.
According to the article about autism and the girl, the manufacturers have removed Thimerosal (in 2001 or earlier) from most of the vaccines except for some of the flu vaccines. I think the girl was vaccinated before 2001.
The surprizing thing is that new cases of autism are still showing up after the preservative was removed. In my opinion, the link between Thimerosal and autism may be weaker than expected.

we were just talking about this tonight at work. the other pharmacist's cousin hasnt vaccinated her kid and is not planning to.

i think it is dangerous to your kid and socially irresponsible not to vaccinate.

i understand autism is difficult for kids and parents...but one can lead a relatively happy life with autism. if you get polio or mumps, well, over paralysis and infection...i'd have to choose autism.

In countries with no thimerosal vaccines, the rate of autism is higher then in countries which use the thimerosal preservative. There goes that theory of autism. People forget a few years ago, the diagnosis criteria for autism changed and also, I think, they started to include autism spectrum disorders like Aspergers, in that category.

genesis09 said:

In countries with no thimerosal vaccines, the rate of autism is higher then in countries which use the thimerosal preservative. There goes that theory of autism. People forget a few years ago, the diagnosis criteria for autism changed and also, I think, they started to include autism spectrum disorders like Aspergers, in that category.

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Another factor is that state programs paying for autistic kids have exploded. Parents have an enormous vested interest in seeking out screening for autism and other developmental disorders, which causes a pseudo-increase in the incidence rate of autism.

fenixtnlfan said:

Now I haven't really researched this topic much or read the studies, but from what I know the autistic-vaccine link has been proved and also disproved by different groups. So I guess that means nothing has been proved about it...lol. Of course people are going to use the study that sides with their position.

A few weeks ago I saw a case on CNN where a family was getting money from the government after they sued for their child getting autism from a vaccine. Would be interesting to know how they proved it.

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Scientifically valid studies suggest there is no link.

The child in question developed "autism-like" symptoms in reaction to a vaccine. And in any event, I wouldn't regard the results of a lawsuit as proving anything. There's the law, and then there's the truth, and those two don't necessarily coincide.

I would link the increase in autism in recent years to an increase in diagnosis rather than in actual incidence. Though I kind of like the "geeks marrying geeks" theory, which suggests that people with autistic traits are getting together in college, in contrast with past generations, when girls didn't take technical/science courses.

Pharmavixen said:

Though I kind of like the "geeks marrying geeks" theory, which suggests that people with autistic traits are getting together in college, in contrast with past generations, when girls didn't take technical/science courses.

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What does that have to do with anything? Is the meaning behind that suppose to be that girls who take science courses are more autistic than girls who don't? If so, that's ridiculous. Some people just don't give a crap about social norms or politeness.

PharmDstudent said:

What does that have to do with anything? Is the meaning behind that suppose to be that girls who take science courses are more autistic than girls who don't? If so, that's ridiculous. Some people just don't give a crap about social norms or politeness.

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The meaning behind it is that girls AND boys who have autistic traits are less likely to study liberal arts, and instead are drawn towards the sciences, where the social difficulties that characterize autism spectrum disorders are less likely to be a hindrance.

In the past, girls didn't take science courses, and were thus less likely to meet their male counterparts. But now they do, and are procreating with them, thus concentrating these traits into the next generation. So two brilliant, socially-awkward, obsessive engineering science students get together and make a kid with full-blown autism, or Aspergers.

True, some people don't give a crap about manners or politeness. But autistic people, or their high-functioning cousins with Aspergers, are unable to understand the subtleties of social interactions, and frequently can be unintentionally rude (I have a close friend with Aspergers, and I like his candor, but if you don't know him, it can be off-putting).

Pharmavixen said:

The meaning behind it is that girls AND boys who have autistic traits are less likely to study liberal arts, and instead are drawn towards the sciences, where the social difficulties that characterize autism spectrum disorders are less likely to be a hindrance.

In the past, girls didn't take science courses, and were thus less likely to meet their male counterparts. But now they do, and are procreating with them, thus concentrating these traits into the next generation. So two brilliant, socially-awkward, obsessive engineering science students get together and make a kid with full-blown autism, or Aspergers.

True, some people don't give a crap about manners or politeness. But autistic people, or their high-functioning cousins with Aspergers, are unable to understand the subtleties of social interactions, and frequently can be unintentionally rude (I have a close friend with Aspergers, and I like his candor, but if you don't know him, it can be off-putting).

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From what you're saying, women didn't have a choice as to who they would marry prior to science classes. So before science classes, women would just point to a man and say, "Will you be my husband?" It must have been completely random. Oh puleese!

Regardless of education, people will find common ground. I can hardly tolerate overly sociable people sometimes. I really have to get to know someone or be comfortable in my surroundings before I can be outgoing with people.

If someone is not very sociable, how would they meet someone who is sociable? Do you seriously think that a sociable person would go out and search for a non-sociable person? Why would they do that... so that they could go out and socialize with them? No. They would do so only if it benefits the sociable person (the non-sociable person has money, power, is admirable due to prestige, etc.). The only other possibility is that they may just happen to cross paths with the non-sociable person one day (which is unlikely considering the behavior of each person).

So... the fact that people meet up in science classes has nothing to do with their mating patterns, because they would have been drawn to those people anyway due to their common behaviors. Stare around in a bookstore or the library, and you'll know where I'm coming from. It's nerd city in those places

This is suppose to be the best type of relationship to have, a relationship of duality. I've had friends/significant others who were my dual partner, but it didn't always work out, because they were so freakin' sociable with other people that I couldn't tolerate feeling neglected. Don't get me wrong, because I'm not a "needy" person, but I just can't be second to the rest of the world.

Pharmavixen said:

The meaning behind it is that girls AND boys who have autistic traits are less likely to study liberal arts, and instead are drawn towards the sciences, where the social difficulties that characterize autism spectrum disorders are less likely to be a hindrance.

In the past, girls didn't take science courses, and were thus less likely to meet their male counterparts. But now they do, and are procreating with them, thus concentrating these traits into the next generation. So two brilliant, socially-awkward, obsessive engineering science students get together and make a kid with full-blown autism, or Aspergers.

True, some people don't give a crap about manners or politeness. But autistic people, or their high-functioning cousins with Aspergers, are unable to understand the subtleties of social interactions, and frequently can be unintentionally rude (I have a close friend with Aspergers, and I like his candor, but if you don't know him, it can be off-putting).

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Have you read Unstrange Minds: Remapping the World of Autism ? It's a great book, and with the above statement you basically sumarized the chapter I read last night before bed.

I've always thought of autism as a genetic/environmental disease...the incidence increases if a child is exposed to certain toxins (heavy metals, mercury being the case in the thimerisol) because of the activation of dormant genes...it has also been linked to ingesting toxins while pregnant (such as smoking and drinking)

My sister read in a book (What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations) that vaccines have possibly been linked to autoimmune diseases. I know a girl that had to get a meningitis vaccination to live on campus...she also got a flu shot that day. About 10 months later she was diagnosed with autoimmune liver disease and was stage 3 liver damage (stage 4 being cirrhosis.)

Pretty creepy timing if nothing else.

How deep is this pit of speculation that we're descending?

soyroger said:

How deep is this pit of speculation that we're descending?

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Well when something changes your life that much and they can't tell you why, you speculate as deep as you can imagine.

BlueCrayon said:

I've always thought of autism as a genetic/environmental disease...the incidence increases if a child is exposed to certain toxins (heavy metals, mercury being the case in the thimerisol) because of the activation of dormant genes...it has also been linked to ingesting toxins while pregnant (such as smoking and drinking)

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Well thats a nice little theory. Problem is that mercury has been phased out of vaccines since 1999 and the autism rates keep going up every year.

Vaccines are not contributing to autism.

SexyPlexi said:

I know a girl that had to get a meningitis vaccination to live on campus...she also got a flu shot that day. About 10 months later she was diagnosed with autoimmune liver disease and was stage 3 liver damage (stage 4 being cirrhosis.)

Pretty creepy timing if nothing else.

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Um, that's probably not the only shot she got in her whole life. And lots of people (including me!) get meningitis vaccines and don't end up with a liver disease. That's a really weak correlation you've got there - like saying she went on vacation or ate some pizza and 6 months later she got sick, how spooky.

I am sorry that your friend has liver damage, but I don't think it's a good idea to suggest that it's related to a vaccine unless there is more evidence for that.

SexyPlexi said:

My sister read in a book (What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations) that vaccines have possibly been linked to autoimmune diseases.

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SHE READ IT IN A BOOK???? NO WAY! HOLY ****!!!

MacGyver said:

Well thats a nice little theory. Problem is that mercury has been phased out of vaccines since 1999 and the autism rates keep going up every year.

Vaccines are not contributing to autism.

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I was just using the thimerisol in vaccines as an example but there are still many other sources of exposure to heavy metals in the environment as well as many other toxins due to increased pollution.

I wasn't trying to say that everyone who gets a meningitis vaccination will get liver disease. OR that it was necessarily THE thing that triggered it. It was just the timing and uncertainty of it all. I would imagine that vaccinations create some sort of immune response...and it's autoimmune disease...COULD be...that's ALL I was saying. Jeeze.

SexyPlexi said:

I wasn't trying to say that everyone who gets a meningitis vaccination will get liver disease. OR that it was necessarily THE thing that triggered it. It was just the timing and uncertainty of it all. I would imagine that vaccinations create some sort of immune response...and it's autoimmune disease...COULD be...that's ALL I was saying. Jeeze.

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Then please use better evidence than my sister read it in a book.

SexyPlexi said:

My sister read in a book (What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations) . . .

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And with a title like that I hope she took it with a huge grain of salt. Sounds like some hack capitalizing on the fear mongering the media keeps going.

Even if there was a link between vaccines and autism the incidince are still extremely rare. Tell your sister to read a book about polio and then ask her what she thinks of vaccines.

Well that's fine. I thought that it had been posted as having been taken with a grain of salt. I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm pretty sure no one is actually convinced - or should be. I just thought it was an interesting tid bit. So many of you around here take everything SOOOO seriously and seem to be waiting to pounce on the next person to say something too casually.

What were you expecting? Pharmacy, and medicine in general, is a pretty serious subject. I'm tired of hearing about these idiots who claim they are going to home school their children to keep from having them vaccinated. I'm tired of hearing news story after news story with sensational headlines, overly emotional quotes, and barely a nugget of factual information in them. I'm tired of people who spread FUD after reading one article/book/story and do nothing but fan the flames of fear. I'm tired of hearing about people's personal anecdotes that are logically and scientifically flawed, yet they continue to tell them to the mostly uneducated masses and simply incite fearmongering. Its irresponsible.

Fine. Fair enough. It is horrible to be on prednisone for over 3.5 years and not know the cause. I can imagine that would lead anyone to dig for a reason or a connection. But yes, this has NO actual scientific connection to vaccinations - it is purely a random thought in an internet stranger's brain.

The meaning behind it is that girls AND boys who have autistic traits are less likely to study liberal arts, and instead are drawn towards the sciences, where the social difficulties that characterize autism spectrum disorders are less likely to be a hindrance.

Sorry but....where on earth are you getting this idea that people who enjoy liberal arts are more socially literate and comfortable than people who enjoy science and technology? That makes as much sense as saying people who take English like to wear blue and people who take chemistry like to wear red....

So two brilliant, socially-awkward, obsessive engineering science students get together and make a kid with full-blown autism, or Aspergers.


Plus...just because someone is shy or socially awkward does not increase their chance of having an autistic child...I don't see how intelligence, drive, combined with shyness/awkwardness (most of the latter, btw, is learned behavior) means you have a greater chance of carrying an autism gene.

SexyPlexi said:

Fine. Fair enough. It is horrible to be on prednisone for over 3.5 years and not know the cause.

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I totally agree.

I can imagine that would lead anyone to dig for a reason or a connection.

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Again, right there with you.

But yes, this has NO actual scientific connection to vaccinations - it is purely a random thought in an internet stranger's brain.

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That's not what I said. Could it be a result of the vaccines? Sure, anything is possible. But the way your story was purposely worded was to make a connection between the vaccines and the condition when there was no actual evidence to support such a claim. Correlation does not equal causation, and in this case you barely even have a correlation.

Here is what I am talking about:

I'm sitting in my living room when I hear a gunshot outside. I go out my door and find a person with a gunshot hole in them and you standing 20 feet away holding a gun. Its pretty obvious who the primary suspect is going to be.

Then again,

I'm sitting in my living room when I hear a gunshot outside. I go out my door and find a person with a gunshot hole in them and you standing 20 feet away with your hands in your pockets whistling dixie. Could you have shot the guy? Maybe. But it would be unresponsible of me to go gossip to all the neighbors and say "I think we all know who did it" *wink wink* *nod nod* while looking at you.

What we need are vaccines invented by a school teacher.

Brixius said:

What we need are vaccines invented by a school teacher.

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haha was that an airborne reference.

The thiomersal component is not included in all vaccines, and in the ones where such a byproduct is, it's in extremely low quantities, and as of yet, there has been no causal relationship identifying vaccination as a culprit in ADHD. But who knows, there's always individual consequences to things.

http://vaers.hhs.gov/ VAERS is an adverse effect reporting system for vaccines.

And http://www.immunize.org/ is a website sponsored by the Immunization Action Coalition regarding the importance of immunizations. There are some pretty sad stories about folks who died of very preventable diseases...

FruitFly said:

And http://www.immunize.org/ is a website sponsored by the Immunization Action Coalition regarding the importance of immunizations. There are some pretty sad stories about folks who died of very preventable diseases...

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People would rather pat themselves on the back and talk about how much smarter they are than people who actually give their children vaccines than have their kids live.

I know that vaccines cause autism because every autistic child I've ever known has been vaccinated for something...it's obvious! That's the only link! I will never vaccinate my children - too risky. Hardly anyone gets measles anymore but autism is on the rise! My chiropractor gave me some really good information about this last time he was scanning my aura. In our house, we only eat fruits and vegetables we've grown ourselves in our organic, hydroponic indoor garden. I've lined my daughter's hats with a special insulating foil to keep out the gamma rays from outer space. Plus I make sure she never leaves home without her nargle-repelling necklace. You can't be too safe!

All4MyDaughter said:

stuff

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lol

All4MyDaughter said:

I know that vaccines cause autism because every autistic child I've ever known has been vaccinated for something...it's obvious! That's the only link! I will never vaccinate my children - too risky. Hardly anyone gets measles anymore but autism is on the rise! My chiropractor gave me some really good information about this last time he was scanning my aura. In our house, we only eat fruits and vegetables we've grown ourselves in our organic, hydroponic indoor garden. I've lined my daughter's hats with a special insulating foil to keep out the gamma rays from outer space. Plus I make sure she never leaves home without her nargle-repelling necklace. You can't be too safe!

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LOL, very nice.

WhtsThFrequency said:

Sorry but....where on earth are you getting this idea that people who enjoy liberal arts are more socially literate and comfortable than people who enjoy science and technology? That makes as much sense as saying people who take English like to wear blue and people who take chemistry like to wear red....

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It isn't always the case, of course. But doesn't it make sense that people who are less interested in/confused by other people would be more likely to focus on the sciences than the more people-focussed humanities?

I draw my conclusions from all the engineers and various IT people I know, one of whom has actually been diagnosed with Asperger's.

Plus...just because someone is shy or socially awkward does not increase their chance of having an autistic child...I don't see how intelligence, drive, combined with shyness/awkwardness (most of the latter, btw, is learned behavior) means you have a greater chance of carrying an autism gene.

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True, shyness does not mean you have autistic traits. But autism spectrum disorders are characterized by a lack of emotional intelligence, an inability to relate to other people in the most basic ways. So the spectrum of socially-awkward people will include autistic people as well as normal shy folks.

Hello! I was just browsing through the forums and this topic just happened to pique my interest. Luckily, I just finished working on a group project related to this very topic, so I can add a little more information to what's already in this thread.

So just to give some background on the whole vaccine-autism link, there are currently two separate theories that have been floating around since the 1990's about autism and vaccines.

The first has to do with a connection between the MMR vaccine and symptoms of autism spectrum disorders. This was a result of a study done in 1998, where participants who had the MMR vaccine also symptoms of autism along with some symptoms of irritable bowel disease. After causing a great deal of controversy, the hypothesis has since been refuted with several subsequent studies showing no such link. Also, the study itself was flawed and had little merit. So the general consensus is that there doesn't seem to be any connection between the MMR vaccine and autism.

The second theory has to do with the thimerosol component found in certain vaccines. Thimerosol is a preservative found in a couple different types of vaccines, and within your body, it is converted to a mercury-related compound. This component raised some concerns about possible over exposure to mercury in children potentially causing autism. The amount of this preservative in vaccines, though, is miniscule, and the levels that have been found in vaccinated infants is much lower than what is considered dangerous. Furthermore, several epidemiology studies done have so far shown no such problem with vaccines that use thimerosol. So they're safe.

So why all these concerns about vaccines and autism? Well, children's vaccinations are typically given within the first few years for a baby, and that happens to be about the same time that physicians begin to detect the symptoms of autism for many children. The incidence of autism has also been increasing over the past few decades, exactly when all these theories about autism and vaccines started popping up. However, this increase in incidence more likely just because of the fact that doctors know more about autism and its diagnosis. Many of the people who are diagnosed with autism these days may just have been considered "slow" learners many years ago. Now we realize that it truly is a learning disorder, although we are still unsure of its cause. However, one thing research seems to be indicating right now is that vaccines are not the cause of autism. People are probably better off looking to genetics and other factors rather than vaccines.

Finally, let me just point out one other very important point. Vaccines are one of the most important medical discoveries to healthcare. The benefit that they have given us is enormous. They have managed to greatly decrease or even fully eliminate certain diseases, some deadly, that have plagued our population. However, their benefit can only be gotten when as many people who can be vaccinated are actually vaccinated. Thus, when families are worried about their children receiving certain vaccines, it's very important that they have a good long talk with a healthcare professional about the risks and benefits of vaccination. Certainly, some people should not be immunized with certain vaccines. And some vaccines should only be given at certain time periods. These are all matters that should be discussed with their physician. If you know anyone that does not want to their children to be vaccinated because of the vaccine-autism association, please make sure that they have fully discussed their decision with their physician/pediatrician.

You make some good points. thanks for contributing.

Excellent summary and welcome to the forums.

My girlfriend's brother has easily the most severe autism I have ever heard or seen of...

Her mother, an RN, swears the vaccines are to blame. Now...as a student who has been taught about these things I hold my tongue because the passion that which she will defend this point makes the argument not worth having.

That said I'm sure that many many other parents hold the same opinion with similar passion.

As a medical community...and with nearly every state allowing pharmacist immunization, how are we going to deal with such passionate negativity towards vaccines which have indisputable efficacy?

bwsalvas said:

As a medical community...and with nearly every state allowing pharmacist immunization, how are we going to deal with such passionate negativity towards vaccines which have indisputable efficacy?

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Try your best. Try and show them the available data is about all you can do. Its probably going to feel a lot like

bwsalvas said:

As a medical community...and with nearly every state allowing pharmacist immunization, how are we going to deal with such passionate negativity towards vaccines which have indisputable efficacy?

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Deal with what? You'd be the one administering the vaccine, not the one forcing them to get it in order to enter the public school system. The Pharmacist Letter has some good info on their website and a handout to give patients who have legitimate questions. There is no sense in trying to change someone's mind about something they feel so passionate about. Its a losing battle and not worth your time. If someone rails against you about how evil vaccines are, roll with the punch and keep going, fighting back only drags you down to their irrational level.

Interesting thread that I've been following and I agree with most of you. Based upon my own research, I'm disinclined to believe autism is grounded in environmental causes, but hey, no one know's for sure what does, right?

Anyways, I'm attemping to form a hypothesis regarding autism's potential basis as a product of low-grade chronic inflammation (induced as a possible byproduct of vaccination). I'd be interested to see whether anyone's come accross any epi data that points to a post-vaccination correlation of either IL-6, 8, or 10 in children that have developed autistic-like conditions? Any takers?

Anyways, I'm attemping to form a hypothesis regarding autism's potential basis as a product of low-grade chronic inflammation (induced as a possible byproduct of vaccination). I'd be interested to see whether anyone's come accross any epi data that points to a post-vaccination correlation of either IL-6, 8, or 10 in children that have developed autistic-like conditions? Any takers?

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A couple of posts up:

The first has to do with a connection between the MMR vaccine and symptoms of autism spectrum disorders. This was a result of a study done in 1998, where participants who had the MMR vaccine also symptoms of autism along with some symptoms of irritable bowel disease. After causing a great deal of controversy, the hypothesis has since been refuted with several subsequent studies showing no such link. Also, the study itself was flawed and had little merit. So the general consensus is that there doesn't seem to be any connection between the MMR vaccine and autism.

The second theory has to do with the thimerosol component found in certain vaccines. Thimerosol is a preservative found in a couple different types of vaccines, and within your body, it is converted to a mercury-related compound. This component raised some concerns about possible over exposure to mercury in children potentially causing autism. The amount of this preservative in vaccines, though, is miniscule, and the levels that have been found in vaccinated infants is much lower than what is considered dangerous. Furthermore, several epidemiology studies done have so far shown no such problem with vaccines that use thimerosol. So they're safe.

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The autism/MMR debate is kept alive by the anti-vaccine crowd, who grind various axes. Some are trying to promote the "alternative" health products that they sell. Some are trying to advance a class action lawsuit. Some, like bwsalves' girlfriend's brother's mother, are (possibly) wracked with guilt and looking for a concrete place to lay blame. And some are just boring, boring zealots clogging the internet with their bad spelling and worse science.