150K in debt. Can I quit med school?

What were you doing before, why do you think this isn't for you, and where did all this debt come from?

You will need a well paying job to pay of $150k in debt.

You are going to have to be realistic about your career goals and desires in a job. Keep in mind that if you want to go into primary care (I know many older non-trads want to do this since they don't have excessive time to subspecialize) then you will have the opportunity to get some grants or loan payments for working in rural or underserved areas.

The future isn't as bleak as you may think it will be. Also, if you do do primary care then all you have to do in medical school is pass.

You could try something in psychology/clincal psychology but again payments will not be easy unless you are willing to work multiple jobs. Also, are you married? If not, then you don't have to worry about paying for children. If you are, then maybe your partner needs a better job/more hours.

Looks like you need to stay in medical school.

Whatever you do, don't quit. It'll be the worst mistake of your life.

One option would be to see if you can get a LOA for a year. This would allow you to explore other options, while still keeping the window of med school open. You don't have to stay with medicine. Get on an extended repayment plan and find a career you would enjoy.

GotstaGo said:

I'm 38, about to start 2nd year, and realize this is not the path for me. Oops. I have a BA in Psychology. Is there any way to get out with this much debt?

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yeah everyone goes through the "this crap isnt for me" stage. EVERYONE. even your most hardcore gunner thinks that, at least once.

gotstago

Hmm...tough situation. A worse situation would be to get through with med school and owe 350k and then quit residency. So I think you need to either quit soon or not at all. Only you can make that decision. Perhaps talking to the dean of students at your med school about your doubts would be helpful.
Also, be aware that the hours, etc. for all specialties are not the same. The hours, etc. for some, like psych, pathology, and physical med/rehab, are quite a bit better than for others. Yes, even psych residents have to do a few medicine months with call (but I think it's only 3 or so). I'm just saying psych b/c of your psychology background. I have a friend who is a psych doc and is from another country, and he had a lot of job offers. Pediatric psych is definitely an area of high need.

p.s. I didn't love med school either, but I do like being a doctor. Getting out may not be the worst idea ever if you are sure it isn't for you...but I wouldn't quit unless I had another job lines up. You could ask your med school dean for a year off, but even that I wouldn't do without a decent job lined up.

Before my first day of medical school I dreamed that my girlfriend broke up with me, my family disowned me, and I failed out of medical school. That was probably the worst dream I could possibly have. Either way studying is terrible and hopefully you've had some great clinical experience along the way. Perhaps check out some of the better clubs to get yourself more in touch with the thing that originally drew you to medicine. I would say that everyone thinks about quitting, but in the end friends, family, and peers help them through. I'd say just try to tough it out and good luck.

phatib said:

Here's your solution:

Apply for a ton of credit cards and get $150,000 in credit limits. Put your loans on the credit cards. Declare bankruptcy. Wait 7 years. Credit problem solved. Now you can get a job.

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Alternatively... everyone seems to be walking away from their mortgages these days. Why not just take out 300k for a house (might be easier to get the amount you need than getting lots of credit cards), pay off your student loans and then declare bankruptcy.

Everyone says that school debt is good debt. Well as someone said.. the days consolidating at 2% interest is gone. It might be better to have bankruptcy than to have the feds arrest you for never paying back your gov loans. Anyways.. defaulting on gov student loans probably look just as bad as bankruptcy as far as your credit rating goes.

Do you want to continue down a path that will leave you unhappy and unsatisfied in your professional life? I've been down that road and believe me you will hate yourself in 10 years? Do you have an advisor or counselor your can discuss this with? I think what others have said is true in that most people have doubts about the work and it usually happens when something else is going on in their personal lives. You need to try and remove the noise and focus on this one particular decision.

Good luck and I hope things work out for you.

phatib : after you mentioned the "credit card" scam, I googled about to find out if this scam could even work in theory.

I read about a podiatrist successfully doing it, but the general consensus on the legal forums is that this would be fraud. It would be straightforward to show in court that transferring $150,000 in debt to a raft of different cards with higher interest rates is part of some kind of scam. No honest person would make that choice. And therefore, you could be prosecuted for fraudulent borrowing, since you obviously never intended to repay the credit card debts.

There are legal ways to work with the debt, such as the new Income Based Loan repayment. There would be consequences for amassing so much debt without getting the education it purchased, but you wouldn't be destitute.

GotsaGo, that is a tough area to be in. Everyone had good points. My thoughts would be:

1. You are going in 2nd year--clinicals and residency will be different. If you do not like patients (if you have been exposed), you can do radiology/path/etc. If you just do not like medicine at all, I would consider getting out.

2. Have you considered PA school. I know most people that go to med school cannot stand the thought about being a PA. I do not know why. Less training time and less liability. Obviously, you cannot call the shots, but in the long run, it isn't that cracked up it seems to be when you are in college. Don't get me wrong--I feel being a doctor is better for me but if I was older now going thru med school, I would consider PA route.

3. Have you considered dentistry. Again, you get a doctorate and can make great money. Granted, money shouldn't be the primary goal, but it definitely doesn't hurt. Endodontics has some of the highest reimbursement of the MDs/DMDs/DDSs. Even if you don't do a specialty, you have a life and good money. Plus, you get to help people. The only downside is most of the dentists I know have a complex about not being an MD (I am married to a dentist, so I used to hang out with them and some of my patients are dentists).

Anyways, good luck.

PS-I was at work when I wrote this, so sorry if similar things have been said in previous posts.

phatib : actually, I didn't search for it with the word scam. I used that word twice in my post to emphasize that I think deliberately ripping off a lending institution for $150,000 is morally wrong. Sure, sure, credit card companies are out to screw you, and I don't see anything wrong with an "app-o-rama", but going so far as to transfer your debt to credit cards so that you can declare bankruptcy is too far.

It is a crime, and $150k is enough money that you could be prosecuted for it. Would certainly be tough to explain to an employer or medical board if you were convicted. It's probably a felony.

phatib said:

i

there's also a whole section of people doing no-fee balance transfer carrying $200-300k on their cards at any time and earning interest on this cash.

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It was possible to do this several years ago (though it would be hard to get more than 50 k approved, even over several cards). With today's tighter credit limits, it would be difficult to do this with even $20,000, and the 0% offers are for shorter and shorter time periods.

Well $150K isn't that bad in student loans, obviously not all of it is med school. Get out while you can. I know someone with $100K in loans that spent $40K of it trying to get into med school and just decided to move on. Depends on how much is private aid, interest rates, etc but you will have 25-30 years to pay part of it (hopefully most of) and you'll have to live a little tight, but it will probably be about $900-1100/mn (depending again on interest rate, term of loans, etc). If you really aren't into it with your heart, you wouldn't be teh first to drop out with that much debt.

phatib, it is a crime to rob a bank. Yet, you can "probably" get away with it. Anyone without a JD can still say that you 'probably' have a chance to get away scot free.

It is a crime to borrow a stack of money you have no intention of repaying. Period. I'll look up the statute if you want to argue this further. The only thing a JD would tell you is how likely you are to actually be prosecuted and punished for this crime.

Sure, some crimes are basically safe. You can drive 10mph over the limit or sodomize your wife in the bedroom. Both these things are crimes, and the latter carries substantial criminal penalties in some states. A JD would tell you not to worry about either.

But defrauding a credit card company for $150k, in a manner that leaves PERFECT records? That would be like robbing a bank and letting the bank teller xerox your government ID before the teller gives you the money.

just read in the WSJ that 20%, yes 20% of students are now declaring bankruptcy. Some predict this number to triple...yes 60% or more of students will not be able to service their debt.

I actually now think simply declaring bankruptcy and attempting to dissolve it maybe more possible now than ever. A better approach might be to tell your lender you will settle the debt for a restuctured amount, say 25 cents on the dollar. Now more than any other time this may work.

LADoc00 said:

just read in the WSJ that 20%, yes 20% of students are now declaring bankruptcy. Some predict this number to triple...yes 60% or more of students will not be able to service their debt.

I actually now think simply declaring bankruptcy and attempting to dissolve it maybe more possible now than ever. A better approach might be to tell your lender you will settle the debt for a restuctured amount, say 25 cents on the dollar. Now more than any other time this may work.

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why do you think such a high rate of defaults? just a generally bad economy and falling home prices?

radslooking said:

why do you think such a high rate of defaults? just a generally bad economy and falling home prices?

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this is unprecedented. the amount of debt students are taking out vs. potential income is so ill conceived, IMO the fall out of this on financial markets and govt secured lenders will be Katrina-like.

Imagine millions and millions of student loan accounts going belly up with NO COLLATERAL whatsoever. How do you even begin collecting debts of this magnitude??

GotstaGo said:

I'm 38, about to start 2nd year, and realize this is not the path for me. Oops. I have a BA in Psychology. Is there any way to get out with this much debt?

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I really do wish you the best whatever you decide. Now that I'm done even though my heart is still in it, the debt and what's going on with loan legislation just doesn't make it worth it as now I feel limited in where I can live and even considered selling myself to the government for the sake of survival. Find out what your payment options are. But I definitely agree if you decide to stop, do it now while you're still early in the game b/c the debt only gets bigger.

phatib said:

To Dr. Rack, it is true that if you don't have good or great credit in the past, it'll be hard to bump up the credit limits in the meantime. However it is still quite possible to still have 200-300k in credit lines if you did have excellent credit in the past. Spend a year learning how credit works and people can still get 100k in limits. What is important now is length and quality of history and income.

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The sleep lab which I am part owner of has a credit line much more than that, at slightly less than prime. I have personally signed for it, along with the other co-owners. I have a personal credit line of approx $100,000- at less than prime. Large credit lines are possible, at less than prime, but not at 0%. If you know how to get credit at 0% for a period of at least 6 months, please let me know how to do this.

Phatib, I have the regular Fidelity Rewards Card (1.5% cash back when I deposit the rewards points into my Fidelity brokerage), but doesn't the 0% balance transfer offer on that card have no cap on the fees? It's not worth it when you have to pay 3% of $25,000 in this market.

Also, is your Fidelity 529 a no-preset spending limit card? I pulled my annual credit reports recently and found out that my high credit limit doesn't even show up for that card. I'm trying to get equally high credit limits on my other credit lines, but most lenders don't see that I already have a high credit limit on the Fidelity card and, hence, don't seem to want to take the risk of extending such high limits.

GotstaGo said:

I was in school for a ridiculously looong time to get my degree, then the coursework to get into med school, plus I also did most of a chemistry degree postbac, primarily to raise my gpa, but got into med school and had no money, so didn't finish it. The debt is all student loans including undergrad and first year. I worked full time in a health care field as a tech for 5 years while also going to school. I don't think its for me because I am terrified of the time commitment, the utter brutal lack of a life for seven more years, (then I'm 45!!) that I really don't have what it takes, (I can't remember hardly anything from first year, and most of it bores me to tears, which worries me about boards!) and that the earning potential will not be there to manage my grand total of approx 350K of debt by graduation (before interest) as the future of health care looks very bleak, leaving me with no money, no personal time, and nothing to enjoy. Also, the ending of deferment during residency doesn't help. I realize that I did this to myself, but I had the best of intentions going in, and am feeling pretty hopeless.

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Have you considered pharmacy? Seems like with a postbac in chem, need for a good salary, nearly guaranteed employment, and shorter time in school this would be a good match for you! You might be able to do a PharmD in 3 years, not to mention that you can probably find a good signing bonus if you're willing to work in shortage areas that could pay down some of that debt!

What about CRNA?

I suggest to finish medical school; do residency in something other than primary care (e.g. anesthesia, psych, pm&R, etc.) preferably a 4 year residency.
Then live like a resident for 3 years after an pay off all your debt.

Would you rather live poorly for another 8 years? Or live poorly for the next 30 years (basically your entire adult working life)?

You will be much better off having money and not being entirely satisfied with your job, rather than being dirt poor for the rest of your life.

With $150k in debt, if you leave medical school, then most of your income will go towards paying that debt.

Hey GotstaGo. Sorry to hear about that debt total, that’s painful. Fortunately, the Department of Education has repayment plan that should be beneficial to you. The IBR plan (or Income Based Repayment plan) is a plan setup by the Department of Education to keep payments manageable in situations like yours. For most eligible borrowers your loan payment should be less than 10% of your income.

Also, any balance left over after 25 years of qualifying payments will be forgiven by the Government. A word of warning though, that balance that’s forgiven will likely be taxed as income so it’s a good idea to pocket some savings along the way. Hope this hopes and good luck!


Kris
iGrad.com

* Note: This response was transcribed and posted by my virtual assistant.

You'll take a haircut but you can mitigate loss if you have equity and good credit and are willing to walk away from both.

See if you could roll your debt into a mortgage (lot harder these days than it used to be) preferably a rental property. The best bet would be to incorporate with the rental as a corporate holding then quit paying the mortgage. Pay yourself the rent as income from the corporation...bilk as much money as you can the. Let the corporation declare bankruptcy.
That's the best option for people that have money but don't want to pay it.
For really broke people you can do the same, put as much money in bankruptcy protected retirement accounts as you can, gift max allowed amounts to friends that will return it and kiss your credit score good-by.
There are a variety of options the key is to roll that 150 into debt forgivable.

Yes, please do not quit. Just finish it. In the end, you'll have another degree that you could use as a way to pay off your debt load. The grass is not greener on the other side.

underthecovers said:

Yes, please do not quit. Just finish it. In the end, you'll have another degree that you could use as a way to pay off your debt load. The grass is not greener on the other side.

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This thread is nearly six years old. The person who started it, aside from being inactive, has likely either finished medical school and most/all of residency by now, or has moved pretty far on. Points for enthusiasm though. You'll make a great necromancer.

Mad Jack said:

This thread is nearly six years old. The person who started it, aside from being inactive, has likely either finished medical school and most/all of residency by now, or has moved pretty far on. Points for enthusiasm though. You'll make a great necromancer.

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I didn't know it was that old. Apologies. Wherever this OP is, hope he's well.

underthecovers said:

I didn't know it was that old. Apologies. Wherever this OP is, hope he's well.

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Me too. Sometimes I wonder about people who vanish into the ether like this. Did everything turn out okay, whee are they now, etc. Would be interesting to know.