Concerns about LECOM-Erie

SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)

Hi everyone,

I had the pleasure of interviewing at LECOM and was accepted a few days ago, however I had some bad impressions of the school. I'm curious to know other people's thoughts, specifically from LECOM students and graduates, but also fellow interviewees who came out of the process excited about LECOM.

I should mention that my visit to LECOM was biased due to several posts on SDN. If one googles "student doctor network LECOM" you will find the first hit is for a thread called "Don't go to LECOM" and a student tries to talk people out of going to the school. Now, I had no experience with the school so when I had a chance to talk to the students without the administrative staff around, the plan was to ask them and try to get honest answers.

Well, I never had such an opportunity because the older lady (forgot her name) who gave us the initial welcome was in and out of the room constantly when we were supposed to be having some time with the students and the students only. They did not have time to answer my questions about LECOM's COMLEX pass rate and their opinions on the PBL curriculum. These observations seemed to confirm the anonymous allegations that LECOM does everything it can to keep its students on a tight leach to give a highly controlled view of the school. Did anyone else get that sense? At PCOM I just sat down in the cafeteria and asked students questions, it wasn't difficult. The tour guides at CCOM/PCOM/TOURO were all students so again it was easy to ask things without worrying that the questions would get back to your file.

Did anyone else notice the silly rules posted around the school? For example, there was a sign saying something like, "students are not allowed to enter or be in the front entrance at any time". The gentleman who was our tour guide quipped, "This is the first and last time you'll be in this gorgeous entryway." Why? Why couldn't you trust your students to behave in the hallways? They are medical school students for goodness sake. Again, this added to the domineering attitude that the school had.

When I asked our guide (the older woman) what the COMLEX pass rate was, she said 99%. I was stunned because I had heard the rate was much lower. I asked if that was for first time test takers and she didn't know. I asked her what the average COMLEX-step one score was for first-time takers and she didn't know that either. Does anyone know the answers to these questions? She got very defensive and referred me back to the piece of paper showing which hospitals their graduates matched at.

That's another question I have. I am looking at this piece of paper right now that shows "match results", although really it doesn't. It does not show speciality, only the hospital. Now, I am not a med school guru, but isn't that silly? CCOM, PCOM-PA, and most other schools I interviewed at had the actual match list (starting with anesthesiology and going to radiology). Why would LECOM not do the same? Are they hiding something?

The other thing I am worried about is that LECOM doesn't do much in terms of networking to help you get placed for your residency. Again, I got this idea from several SDN posts. But, I was not able to talk to any students, and those students who we talked to were first years so they had no idea anyway. Dose any 3rd/4th year students have experience, good or bad, with LECOM?

To sum up: I am concerned about choosing LECOM because they seemed non-transparent, overbearing to their students, and dishonest/uninformed about their own school statistics. Can anyone help alleviate my worries?

Also I would like to add that the students (from what short time we had with them) seemed like very wonderful people, and I mean no offense to them or those who have already decided on LECOM. I am just trying to make one of the biggest decisions of my life right now and I need honest help.

I got the impression people seemed nice, but I really wanted more information about the residencies and the clinical rotations.

what are your choices right now? what schools have you interviews/been accepted/waitlisted at?

Originally Posted by rajaholick

what are your choices right now? what schools have you interviews/been accepted/waitlisted at?

Interviewed at TOURO-NY, CCOM, and PCOM-PA. I have only heard back from TOURO-NY (accepted, but already declined them), and CCOM and PCOM have not yet gotten back to me. LECOM wants a deposit by the end of the month (December 31st) and PCOM and CCOM said I would hear something by early January (BAH!!). Tough timing...

On a completely unrelated topic, if you put down the non-refundable deposit and then walk away, is it true that a school can send out a warning about you to residencies later on?

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

Interviewed at TOURO-NY, CCOM, and PCOM-PA. I have only heard back from TOURO-NY (accepted, but already declined them), and CCOM and PCOM have not yet gotten back to me. LECOM wants a deposit by the end of the month (December 31st) and PCOM and CCOM said I would hear something by early January (BAH!!). Tough timing...

On a completely unrelated topic, if you put down the non-refundable deposit and then walk away, is it true that a school can send out a warning about you to residencies later on?

wow, i never heard that. Could be true, but it seems like putting a deposit down and going elsewhere is a pretty common practice. How would those schools know where u are applyng to residencies anyway? Again, scary if it is true.
-On the LECOM erie thread, ChocolateBear posted the 2008 match list. It seems pretty comparable to PCOM's.
-We can't go in the atrium/lobby thing b/c I guess there was a security issue awhile back with someone entering who stole some stuff..at least that is what admissions told me.
-I'm from Erie and did the postbac program last yr and was deciding btw LECOM and PCOM. My most important consideration is 3rd and 4th yr rotations. I talked to some LECOM students who know others at PCOM and they said you have more freedom with rotation choices at PCOM. It is tempting for me to go to LECOM since I live 2 min away and it is cheaper, but I'll prob choose PCOM.
-A cardiologist I shadowed here who went to PCOM told me it doesn't really matter where u go to school..you are going to do how u are going to do wherever...comforting, but I don't know about that...seems like students at LECOM are a bit stifled..but I suppose every student you talk to is going to have a diff opinion about the school. Go where you feel is the most comfortable is all I can say really...

Originally Posted by rugger14

wow, i never heard that. ...Go where you feel is the most comfortable is all I can say really...

Yeah, I don't know if that's true either (deposits being used against you), but I thought I'd ask since I heard it from someone on SDN.

As to your comment that I should go where I feel most comfortable, I guess the point I am trying to make is that LECOM didn't give me enough information. That's why I need the help of SDN!!

I appreciate the match list, I will try to find that in the thread you mentioned. Thank you for your post.

The explanation for students not being allowed in the entrance seems silly. What is there to steal except a few chairs and some antiques in glass boxes?

As to my other questions, does anyone know the COMLEX pass rate and/or average score? Did anyone else feel the way I felt after leaving the interview?

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

Interviewed at TOURO-NY, CCOM, and PCOM-PA. I have only heard back from TOURO-NY (accepted, but already declined them), and CCOM and PCOM have not yet gotten back to me. LECOM wants a deposit by the end of the month (December 31st) and PCOM and CCOM said I would hear something by early January (BAH!!). Tough timing...

On a completely unrelated topic, if you put down the non-refundable deposit and then walk away, is it true that a school can send out a warning about you to residencies later on?

I would say that your last statement is untrue because what school is going to put that much thought and energy into a student who doesn't go there when they have tons of students that are of greater concern and priority. SDN has a wealth of information that is helpful to an applicant but it also has alot of misinformation about this whole process. Sometimes you have to research and discern what is fact and what is BS. And I would say that statement is BS.

When I interviewed a couple weeks ago, I was told the Comlex pass rate was ~94%, which was 7th ranked for DO schools. As for USMLE, Dr. Moore didn't know. We had 2 2nd years at lunch that we were able to speak with and they seemed satisfied with their education. For me, I don't care so much about the stifling atmosphere because it's all on me to do well no matter where I go. The only thing I didn't necessarily like was the really small library. There didn't seem to be very much space for studying. The only I heard about rotations in 3rd and 4th year is that you get to either choose a city or a specific month to take vacation. If you pick a certain city, then your vacation will be picked for you. If you choose a certain month, say December, than LECOM will place you in a city.

Edit: This is what I was told in my interview by Dr. Moore. I could be wrong or misheard him so some LECOM students may have a better idea

I ran into my student guides from interview day at a barns and nobels outside of the interview. They said that one of the things that I should be concerned about are the clincal rotations, the main issue being theres going to be all these new students on the Seton Hill campus trying for the same number of rotation sites. They said they were pleased with the quality of the education however, but not to expect too much assistance from the administration.

Originally Posted by engineeredout

....They said that one of the things that I should be concerned about are the clincal rotations, the main issue being theres going to be all these new students on the Seton Hill campus trying for the same number of rotation sites....

There will still be waaaaaaay more rotation sites than they ever need. The difference may be that Seton Hill "might" get preference for some specific sites. That would cut down the number of Erie or Bradenton students, for example, that could rotate through there. However, the real problem with Erie is that they have so many "mandatory" rotation sites-- meaning, Lecom has guaranteed some hospitals that they will have a minimum number of students for each rotation. So, someone from your group will be going. You are likely to end up at several sites during third year.

For instance, I chose to do an EM elective at Conemaugh in Johnstown because it was a level-one trauma center. I rotated with about 20 to 25 Lecom-Erie students. Most of the third-year students had rotated at several places in the first 6 months. A bunch of them had done several rotations at Conemaugh, though, and it's a really good teaching facility IMHO, but it will probably be full of Seton Hill kids in a few years. Still, there is no lack of other places to rotate in other areas.

I interviewed there as well, and I've got to say that the extensive set of rules bothered me too.

For instance, the fact that you have to wear dress clothes in all classes (even labs) struck me as preposterous. KCUMB, for instance, has a dress code also, but it allows students to wear scrubs all day if they want. Since many docs wear scrubs all the time anyway, I fail to see how wearing dress clothes automatically makes a physician/medical student more "professional". Heck, my primary care doc often wears jeans and a t-shirt during office visits, and I feel it actually makes him seem more down-to-earth and humanistic.

Second, I find the rule against drinking any sort of beverage anywhere in the school (except for the cafeteria) to be equally ridiculous. Now, the Phd who gave us a tour said it was actually a cost-containment measure intended to reduce the cost of janitorial staff who would have had to clean up drink bottles that the students would have left around otherwise. If that's truly the case, than I guess maybe it makes some sense given that LECOM is able to offer such low tuition. But still...does that mean they never clean the rest of the school? WTF?


I liked some things about the school, but the "rules list" is one of the biggest reasons why I probably will not be going there. This is a graduate school, not a Catholic junior high school - and any school at this level should allow its hardworking students to make basic decisions about how to live their day-to-day lives.

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

Hi everyone,

I had the pleasure of interviewing at LECOM and was accepted a few days ago, however I had some bad impressions of the school. I'm curious to know other people's thoughts, specifically from LECOM students and graduates, but also fellow interviewees who came out of the process excited about LECOM.

I should mention that my visit to LECOM was biased due to several posts on SDN. If one googles "student doctor network LECOM" you will find the first hit is for a thread called "Don't go to LECOM" and a student tries to talk people out of going to the school. Now, I had no experience with the school so when I had a chance to talk to the students without the administrative staff around, the plan was to ask them and try to get honest answers.

Well, I never had such an opportunity because the older lady (forgot her name) who gave us the initial welcome was in and out of the room constantly when we were supposed to be having some time with the students and the students only. They did not have time to answer my questions about LECOM's COMLEX pass rate and their opinions on the PBL curriculum. These observations seemed to confirm the anonymous allegations that LECOM does everything it can to keep its students on a tight leach to give a highly controlled view of the school. Did anyone else get that sense? At PCOM I just sat down in the cafeteria and asked students questions, it wasn't difficult. The tour guides at CCOM/PCOM/TOURO were all students so again it was easy to ask things without worrying that the questions would get back to your file.

Did anyone else notice the silly rules posted around the school? For example, there was a sign saying something like, "students are not allowed to enter or be in the front entrance at any time". The gentleman who was our tour guide quipped, "This is the first and last time you'll be in this gorgeous entryway." Why? Why couldn't you trust your students to behave in the hallways? They are medical school students for goodness sake. Again, this added to the domineering attitude that the school had.

When I asked our guide (the older woman) what the COMLEX pass rate was, she said 99%. I was stunned because I had heard the rate was much lower. I asked if that was for first time test takers and she didn't know. I asked her what the average COMLEX-step one score was for first-time takers and she didn't know that either. Does anyone know the answers to these questions? She got very defensive and referred me back to the piece of paper showing which hospitals their graduates matched at.

That's another question I have. I am looking at this piece of paper right now that shows "match results", although really it doesn't. It does not show speciality, only the hospital. Now, I am not a med school guru, but isn't that silly? CCOM, PCOM-PA, and most other schools I interviewed at had the actual match list (starting with anesthesiology and going to radiology). Why would LECOM not do the same? Are they hiding something?

The other thing I am worried about is that LECOM doesn't do much in terms of networking to help you get placed for your residency. Again, I got this idea from several SDN posts. But, I was not able to talk to any students, and those students who we talked to were first years so they had no idea anyway. Dose any 3rd/4th year students have experience, good or bad, with LECOM?

To sum up: I am concerned about choosing LECOM because they seemed non-transparent, overbearing to their students, and dishonest/uninformed about their own school statistics. Can anyone help alleviate my worries?

Also I would like to add that the students (from what short time we had with them) seemed like very wonderful people, and I mean no offense to them or those who have already decided on LECOM. I am just trying to make one of the biggest decisions of my life right now and I need honest help.

I haven't interviewed there, or been there, but they did have a very impressive match list. They matched 10 in ortho for pete's sake!

FYI a 4th year from LECOM-Erie just made a post of the school in the
"Pros and Cons of your DO school" thread in the Osteopathic forum
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...=407104&page=7

It has a good amount of info and may answer some of your questions

Originally Posted by stonewall22

I haven't interviewed there, or been there, but they did have a very impressive match list. They matched 10 in ortho for pete's sake!

I guess my question then would be, why don't they give out the match list during interveiws then?? Like I said, I have never heard of a hospital match list.

Originally Posted by bleeker10

FYI a 4th year from LECOM-Erie just made a post of the school in the
"Pros and Cons of your DO school" thread in the Osteopathic forum
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...=407104&page=7

It has a good amount of info and may answer some of your questions

I took at look at that post, thanks for telling me about it. It seems to be a very positive view of the school and it does make me feel a little better about LECOM. The details that he gave regarding the 3rd and 4th year prep is great, and this was something not mentioned during my interview at LECOM.

On the other hand I have had quite a few PMs to my account from former/current LECOM students that do mind the extra rules and feel like they are not given enough help in the 3rd and 4th years. It scares me that they feel they cannot come out 'in the open' and post openly. These could be random people trying to make trouble, but I really doubt it. Again, the big brother nature of the school seems to shine right about now.

So: I have decided to bank on PCOM that good news will come back. I wish LECOM students all the best and hope you get the support you deserve in the later years of medical school!

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

I guess my question then would be, why don't they give out the match list during interveiws then?? Like I said, I have never heard of a hospital match list.

Matchlists are good to look at and goggle over but it doesn't say much about what YOU are capable of doing. Just because a school has a lot of primary care matches doesn't mean that going to that particular school will prevent you from obtaining a ortho or ENT spot. It could be the students actually wanted to go into primary care or they didn't score well enough on the boards or auditions to get the spot they really wanted. A school can prepare you out of the wazoo for the boards and rotations but its you that have to success in making that preparation successful. If you are really concerned about residency and matches then you should know which hospitals have good programs and which don't or at least recognize some hospital residency programs. After all that's where you will do your training when you match into a particular program.

Originally Posted by PunkmedGirl

Matchlists are good to look at and goggle over but it doesn't say much about what YOU are capable of doing. Just because a school has a lot of primary care matches doesn't mean that going to that particular school will prevent you from obtaining a ortho or ENT spot. It could be the students actually wanted to go into primary care.

I understand that matchlists are flawed and I totally agree your thoughts on the subject. I will be someone's PCP someday. However, match lists are standard and every school has them. A school can be proud of matching all into primary care. And this does still not address the question: why did they publish a hospital match list? How is that better? I still think that is unusual/unheard of. If you place your students in primary care residencies, that's great, and you should still publish it and make it available to everyone. When I interviewed at CU (allopathic school) they showed off their match list, and most people there went into primary care and are proud of it. LECOM should be too.

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

I understand that matchlists are flawed and I totally agree your thoughts on the subject. I will be someone's PCP someday. However, match lists are standard and every school has them. A school can be proud of matching all into primary care. And this does still not address the question: why did they publish a hospital match list? How is that better? I still think that is unusual/unheard of. If you place your students in primary care residencies, that's great, and you should still publish it and make it available to everyone. When I interviewed at CU (allopathic school) they showed off their match list, and most people there went into primary care and are proud of it. LECOM should be too.

A lot of schools show the hospitals that their students are matched into which isn't unusual. I think its better to show what hospitals the students got into versus just showing there specialty, because then you can research that program and see for yourself if it has good or bad reviews. You have to understand that the matchlist isn't just for pre-meds to view, but for everyone in the medical community. And while you don't know any of the hospitals (which in time you will come to learn about) that are on the list, others do as well as knowing the reputation of these programs.

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

I guess my question then would be, why don't they give out the match list during interveiws then?? Like I said, I have never heard of a hospital match list.

Because a matchlist should not dictate whether you will attend a school or not. Those people that matched, matched because they put in the time and effort to do so, not because the previous graduating class matched in the same positions. You will get the residency you earn. It will not be based upon those before you, and they have very little to do with what you will eventually match into. If you want to match in a specific specialty than you work hard in the rotations associated with that specialty pathway. It is about the people you know and your performance during your rotations that will get you into a decent residency. You seem to be too preoccupied with what will happen four years down the road, rather than what will happen during those four years. If you like the system of education and it fits your style of learning than choose LE-COM, if not than go to P-COM or C-COM. They are all great schools, but ultimatley it is your performance in your pre-clinical and clinical years that will make the difference.

Originally Posted by DC DOC

Because a matchlist should not dictate whether you will attend a school or not.

I completely agree, the match list should not dictate your decision. Just like how the MCATs shouldn't be the only factor in chosing a candidate. But I think it shoudl play a role in the decision making process

Originally Posted by DC DOC

Those people that matched, matched because they put in the time and effort to do so, not because the previous graduating class matched in the same positions.

If a pass rate of a school is really low, it could mean that the faculty/staff is poor. That is what I'm concerend about. Also the PBL track is quite new so it's important for me as a candidate to evaluate it effectiveness in terms of an outcome (eg the average results it gets a student on the COMLEX). Obviously this is an imperfect measurement, but it's a component that most people take into consideration

Originally Posted by DC DOC

You will get the residency you earn. It will not be based upon those before you, and they have very little to do with what you will eventually match into.

Again, this is true in principal, but if you have bad teachers (haven't we all had a least one in our lives?) then you might find you suffer in some areas. Also, in PBL your education seems linked to the abilities of those around you: if your PBL session is not run well and turns into a yelling match, it doesn't seem very productive then.

Originally Posted by PunkmedGirl

A lot of schools show the hospitals that their students are matched into which isn't unusual. I think its better to show what hospitals the students got into versus just showing there specialty, because then you can research that program and see for yourself if it has good or bad reviews. You have to understand that the matchlist isn't just for pre-meds to view, but for everyone in the medical community. And while you don't know any of the hospitals (which in time you will come to learn about) that are on the list, others do as well as knowing the reputation of these programs.

Normal match listst have the hospital and the area of medicine listed...so it seems like that would be better for the reasons you mentioned. This means more for the medical community as it shows not only where people were placed, but also what they are doing. Also while I don't know every hospital in the country, I do know that not all programs within the same hospital/site share the same ranking.

Anyway I'm not sure why we are discussing this, I've made my choice and I wish LECOMers well! Good bye

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

Normal match listst have the hospital and the area of medicine listed...so it seems like that would be better for the reasons you mentioned. This means more for the medical community as it shows not only where people were placed, but also what they are doing. Also while I don't know every hospital in the country, I do know that not all programs within the same hospital/site share the same ranking.

Anyway I'm not sure why we are discussing this, I've made my choice and I wish LECOMers well! Good bye

I'm glad you mad your choice. Good Luck

Originally Posted by iloveDrStill

Hi everyone,=
To sum up: I am concerned about choosing LECOM because they seemed non-transparent, overbearing to their students, and dishonest/uninformed about their own school statistics. Can anyone help alleviate my worries?

I felt the same way about LECOM. I interviewed at bradenton, and upon being told that they were the "more laid back" immediately canceled my interview at their other campus. I think what really killed it for me was the lady who was "in charge of us all day"...She was very nice, but not very forthcoming. Also, she informed us that dresscode was STRICTLY enforced, as was the eating/drinking policy and they'd even lift up the girls pant legs to check if they were wearing hoes. I can't imagine that this is TRUE, but the fact that it was explicitly brought up doin my interview day was a littl weird.

I found this COMPLETELY ridiculous (anyone that's ever worn hoes in FL on a daily basis will tell you that that's CRAZY)... When asked if scrubs were part of the dress code she laughed and said "Absolutely not" now...I;m not a big fan of dress codes. I understand the point of them if you're in a setting where you're seeing patients or acting in a professional capicity...but for school, it's always struck me as pretty elementry and dumb. That said NSU has one, and it doesn't bother me at all (of course, we can wear scrubs...Infact, pretty much the only thing we CAN'T wear are jeans/shorts). What got me was the lack of respect they seemed to have for their students.

The dress code isn't that bad. You get over it after about 1 week. Plus, these two years of being in dress code allows you to understand how to put a shirt and tie on and dress like a professional, so that when you are in 3rd/4th year rotations, you don't look like an idiot who shows up in jeans.

I'm sitting in the library currently and there is plenty of empty tables/spots to study and we have finals next week. I actually have a full table to myself; thus I really don't think finding room to study is a problem.

I think the main point, as others have mentioned, is that you get out what you put into a school. All the schools, MD or DO, teach the same stuff for the first 2 years, so it's up to you to master it and apply it.

I don't understand why people are so up in arms about some strict rules, because when you get out in the real rule you are still going to have rules that you must follow. Maybe its just me but I don't see why dressing professional should be a drag or following some rules that are in place for everyone to follow.

Originally Posted by PunkmedGirl

I don't understand why people are so up in arms about some strict rules, because when you get out in the real rule you are still going to have rules that you must follow. Maybe its just me but I don't see why dressing professional should be a drag or following some rules that are in place for everyone to follow.

As I stated earlier, I'm up in arms about those rules because they are in fact more restrictive than the rules real doctors have to abide by on a day-to-day basis. Many doctors in hospitals wear scrubs all day, but LECOM forces its students to wear dress clothes all the time. Furthermore, not all doctors wear dress clothes all the time - as I mentioned earlier, the doctors at the primary care practice I shadowed at often wore jeans and t-shirts. Was that soort of thing "unprofessional"? Perhaps - but it also seemed to take the doctors' egos down a notch in the company of their patients. If you're wearing the same clothes as your patients, it's a constant reminder to you that you're not some kind of high-and-mighty god.

Overall, however, I believe that any medical school that would even think of forcing such a restrictive set of rules on its students is demonstrating a serious lack of respect. It also bothers me that so many people who are involved with this institution actively apologise for and/or approve of these policies and insist that they are somehow doing some good.

I agree that the dress code seems pretty rediculous for a graduate level school, but the truth of the matter is that I'm not going to say to myself "Hey I'll pay 15k/year more just to go to somewhere else so I can wear jeans or scubs to lecture".

The thing that will get to me more though is no drinks in lecture. Not having coffee with morning lectures is going to be a difficult adjustment.


Definitely seems like women get off easier though. They can wear a lot more casual outfits and still make it look pressional.

Originally Posted by chiDO

The dress code isn't that bad. You get over it after about 1 week. Plus, these two years of being in dress code allows you to understand how to put a shirt and tie on and dress like a professional, so that when you are in 3rd/4th year rotations, you don't look like an idiot who shows up in jeans.

There are definitely people out there who don't know when to dress appropriately. I had to do a presentation on my senior thesis today, a powerpoint in front of the chairs of my major and some executives from industry. I'm the only guy who didn't wear jeans. Still though, theres a difference between being at work/professional presentation and being in a lecture hall. Hell when I go to work at an engineering firm the dress code is more lax than LECOM. And is dressing in business attire really necessary for a cadaver lab?


Something I'm sure we'll all deal with though eventually. More than willing to make that compromise to be in med school.














I'm going to be shotgunning redbulls in the parking lot like an addict every morning though.

Originally Posted by dozitgetchahi

As I stated earlier, I'm up in arms about those rules because they are in fact more restrictive than the rules real doctors have to abide by on a day-to-day basis. Many doctors in hospitals wear scrubs all day, but LECOM forces its students to wear dress clothes all the time. Furthermore, not all doctors wear dress clothes all the time - as I mentioned earlier, the doctors at the primary care practice I shadowed at often wore jeans and t-shirts. Was that soort of thing "unprofessional"? Perhaps - but it also seemed to take the doctors' egos down a notch in the company of their patients. If you're wearing the same clothes as your patients, it's a constant reminder to you that you're not some kind of high-and-mighty god.

Overall, however, I believe that any medical school that would even think of forcing such a restrictive set of rules on its students is demonstrating a serious lack of respect. It also bothers me that so many people who are involved with this institution actively apologise for and/or approve of these policies and insist that they are somehow doing some good.

It's a dress code. That's it that's all. Those doctors that you shadowed are allowed to make their OWN rules because its THEIR practice. Before you even get to that point you are going to have to kiss a lot of BOOTAY and do what you are TOLD to do in order to succeed. During your third and fourth years as well as residency you will have to dress professional, so what is the big deal to start doing that two years earlier???

Originally Posted by ChiDO

so that when you are in 3rd/4th year rotations, you don't look like an idiot who shows up in jeans.

....I would HOPE that if you got THIS FAR you'd know that you should know better then to do that. I mean...there's no dress code for interviews, but you use common sense and dress nicely.

The other thing was...it's enforced in the building ALL THE TIME right (or am I mistaken)? So if you're in the building, you have to be in dress code? so...if you're there on a saturday/sunday/late night...you can't be wearing comfy clothes?

Like it or not, there have actually been studies that sought to find out what patients thought about how their doctors were dressed. They showed that patients preferred a shirt and tie with a white coat. They felt more comfortable and tended to trust the doctor more that way. If that's what the patients want, who am I to say different?

Originally Posted by singinfifi

....I would HOPE that if you got THIS FAR you'd know that you should know better then to do that. I mean...there's no dress code for interviews, but you use common sense and dress nicely.

The other thing was...it's enforced in the building ALL THE TIME right (or am I mistaken)? So if you're in the building, you have to be in dress code? so...if you're there on a saturday/sunday/late night...you can't be wearing comfy clothes?

After 5 I think and on weekends you can dress down. I didn't worry much about dress code when making my decision. The most important thing for me was third and fourth yr rotations (mainly having enough freedom for choosing things)

Originally Posted by PunkmedGirl

A lot of schools show the hospitals that their students are matched into which isn't unusual. I think its better to show what hospitals the students got into versus just showing there specialty, because then you can research that program and see for yourself if it has good or bad reviews. You have to understand that the matchlist isn't just for pre-meds to view, but for everyone in the medical community. And while you don't know any of the hospitals (which in time you will come to learn about) that are on the list, others do as well as knowing the reputation of these programs.

I've never seen a school that lists only their matched hospitals and not specialty. That's absurd. No one in the medical community, student or professional, gives a flying hoot that some school matched two students into ABC Hospital if they don't know what specialty it was. Hospitals are notorious for having some specialties better than others.

Originally Posted by DC DOC

Because a matchlist should not dictate whether you will attend a school or not. Those people that matched, matched because they put in the time and effort to do so, not because the previous graduating class matched in the same positions. You will get the residency you earn. It will not be based upon those before you, and they have very little to do with what you will eventually match into. If you want to match in a specific specialty than you work hard in the rotations associated with that specialty pathway. It is about the people you know and your performance during your rotations that will get you into a decent residency.

I think the main point, as others have mentioned, is that you get out what you put into a school. All the schools, MD or DO, teach the same stuff for the first 2 years, so it's up to you to master it and apply it.

Come on, guys, get real. If that was true, then no one would give a damn where they went to school and the Carribean wouldn't get such a bad rap. The level of instruction as well as the school's curriculum can impact your COMLEX scores. Don't try to sugarcoat it with the roses and butterfly answer that it doesn't matter where you go.

I don't understand why people are so up in arms about some strict rules, because when you get out in the real rule you are still going to have rules that you must follow.

I don't believe in the real word, someone will lift a lady's pant leg to determine whether or not she's wearing pantyhose. If I was a woman and they did that to me, I'd be all over them. Do they take out a ruler and measure how short the skirts are too?

Plus, these two years of being in dress code allows you to understand how to put a shirt and tie on and dress like a professional, so that when you are in 3rd/4th year rotations, you don't look like an idiot who shows up in jeans.

Unless you're a complete social moron, I don't think you need two years of practice to avoid putting on a pair of jeans for work.

Originally Posted by scpod

Like it or not, there have actually been studies that sought to find out what patients thought about how there doctors were dressed. They showed that patients preferred a shirt and tie with a white coat. They felt more comfortable and tended to trust the doctor more that way. If that's what the patients want, who am I to say different?

That's totally irrelevant. How many patients are you seeing in Gross lab?

During your third and fourth years as well as residency you will have to dress professional, so what is the big deal to start doing that two years earlier???

Uh because in third and fourth years, I'll be seeing patients, not sitting in some lecture hall for 8 hours of lecture a day or coming into Gross lab at 7 p.m. on a Sunday.

if they are so adamant about dress codes why wouldnt they have special attire for anatomy lab. Do doctors wear their shirt and tie in surgery? No.

Originally Posted by MedStudentWanna

Come on, guys, get real. If that was true, then no one would give a damn where they went to school and the Carribean wouldn't get such a bad rap. The level of instruction as well as the school's curriculum can impact your COMLEX scores. Don't try to sugarcoat it with the roses and butterfly answer that it doesn't matter where you go.



I don't believe in the real word, someone will lift a lady's pant leg to determine whether or not she's wearing pantyhose. If I was a woman and they did that to me, I'd be all over them. Do they take out a ruler and measure how short the skirts are too?



Unless you're a complete social moron, I don't think you need two years of practice to avoid putting on a pair of jeans for work.

I'm pretty sure they don't want no one coming to class looking like someone went to the boobie bar. Seriously, your arguing about dressing professional at a professional school?? I'm pretty sure if you had a job that required you to be in uniform you would show up in that uniform or find another job. If your against the rules then just don't apply. There's really no reason in whining about LECOM's rules when you can just simply choose not to apply there.

Originally Posted by PunkmedGirl

I'm pretty sure they don't want no one coming to class looking like someone went to the boobie bar.

Do you think it has to be one or the other? Do you think that if they don't tell us how to dress, we're all suddenly going to be all trampy? You don't think we've been dressing ourselves for years? Do you think we're 10? Using your logic, they should also monitor our caloric intake every day because they probably don't want us to be overweight either since we're promoting health and all. I'm 30 years old and I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me to wear a suit and tie to look at cadavers.

Seriously, your arguing about dressing professional at a professional school?? I'm pretty sure if you had a job that required you to be in uniform you would show up in that uniform or find another job.

I'm a nontraditional who worked for years in computer science. I showed up to work every day in a suit and tie and I had no trouble with it. But it's different when you're talking about sitting in lecture and then heading to pathology lab or digging through cadavers to find every obscure point of interest. If you can't see that, you have problems with basic logic.

If your against the rules then just don't apply. There's really no reason in whining about LECOM's rules when you can just simply choose not to apply there.

Oh I didn't apply and I'm not whining. I'm just replying to you and others because your arguments are flawed.

Originally Posted by MedStudentWanna

Come on, guys, get real. If that was true, then no one would give a damn where they went to school and the Carribean wouldn't get such a bad rap.....

The Carribean gets a bad rap because they take anyone with a good credit score and half of the class fails out each semester because the schools really don't cae if you pass or not. YET, the top students from those schools have faired rather well in many cases, earning good residencies and positions as attendings. If you are a top student who works incredibly hard, it really doesn't matter where you go.

In other subjects, it appears as if the dress code isn't your issue-- you just don't seem to like authority. Maybe you need to get over that before your attendings have a field day with you. Just a recommendation.

Originally Posted by MedStudentWanna

Do you think it has to be one or the other? Do you think that if they don't tell us how to dress, we're all suddenly going to be all trampy? You don't think we've been dressing ourselves for years? Do you think we're 10? Using your logic, they should also monitor our caloric intake every day because they probably don't want us to be overweight either since we're promoting health and all. I'm 30 years old and I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me to wear a suit and tie to look at cadavers.

Agreed, some people don't see a middle ground. Hard to believe that some people out there do own jeans without holes in them, or shoes that are intact, collared shirts (if you pop the collar you should be shot though) etc... It is possible to not look like a dirty mess without going full suit attire to watch a powerpoint presentation.

If people have concerns about the quality of a med school's classroom instruction, clinical rotations or residency match list, I can certainly understand that. However, this whining about dress codes and water bottles in the class room is the most childish nonsense I have ever seen.

If you go to LECOM and finance all of it yourself you will be about $320,000 in debt at the end of a 4 year residency. If you go to Michigan State DO's program as an out of state student and finance all of it yourself you are going to be $550,000 in debt at the end of a residency. $230,000 IS something to gripe about.

LECOM is a good deal. If you don't like it, don't apply.

It was just funny to me because what I saw at LECOM-B wasn't even really business level. It was just compliance with the rules. I saw a few kakhi cargo pants with the tie half undone and sleeves rolled up. Some of the shirts were pretty wrinkled too. To me that doesn't look any more professional than wearing a nice pair of jeans and a tucked in polo. It was the college frat guy shirt and tie combo. Just because there is a dress code doesn't mean you care about your appearance. I probably have a larger collection of shirts and ties than most people my age and I never had a dress code. I can tie several different types of knots and even own frickin cufflinks. I know how to dress for the job and don't need 2 years of practice. I know there are people that don't but in a world that is supposedly sink or swim, wearing professional clothes seems like a pretty easy lesson to learn. If I'm studying then I just want to be comfortable. If I know I'm going to be talking to patients all day then I will shave, iron my shirts, and dress accordingly. I'm not knocking LECOM because I loved LECOM-B. I just find some of these rules a bit arbitrary.

OD--

if you look that the OP, you'll see the main concerns about the school were issues of transparency and administration. Complaints about dress code etc. may be symptoms of an administration that treats its students improperly Going to an institution that is committed to making you a good doc is well worth the extra 200k versus one just trying to get your money. I personally have no experience with LECOM and assume it is a good institution, but OD you may want to read the original post before calling people childish.

Originally Posted by singinfifi

....I would HOPE that if you got THIS FAR you'd know that you should know better then to do that. I mean...there's no dress code for interviews, but you use common sense and dress nicely.

The other thing was...it's enforced in the building ALL THE TIME right (or am I mistaken)? So if you're in the building, you have to be in dress code? so...if you're there on a saturday/sunday/late night...you can't be wearing comfy clothes?

Days when you have OPP, you can dress in sweatpants, shorts, tshirt, ect. Also, after 5 and on weekends there is no dress code.

Originally Posted by scpod

In other subjects, it appears as if the dress code isn't your issue-- you just don't seem to like authority. Maybe you need to get over that before your attendings have a field day with you. Just a recommendation.

Oh right, that's gotta be it. Maybe you're still a child in need of someone holding your hand to walk you to the bathroom, but some of us are grown ups, capable of handling our own sh** ourselves. This isn't part of medical education, this is flexing their muscles just because they can and just because you're willing to bend over for them doesn't mean we all should.

Keep in mind you're physically at the school for only 2 years. If you take out weekends and holidays it is way less.

The only thing I hated about the dress code was having that tie around my neck when I'm frustrated during the exam. I didn't like the no liquids anywhere in the building except the cafeteria. There are drinking fountains throughout though. Other than these two rules, it wasn't too bad.

The library isn't that small. There's always plenty of seats. Most students don't use the library anyway. I was there pretty much everyday so I know. They also have study rooms (5 total) where you can study in groups if you like to talk/discuss.

Very good board review preparation toward the end of 2nd year. They even brought in outside professors including John Barone, the "pathology rocks!" guy.

Originally Posted by ChiDO

Days when you have OPP, you can dress in sweatpants, shorts, tshirt, ect. Also, after 5 and on weekends there is no dress code.

Basically, you have to dress up during business hours (morning til 5pm). Don't have to dress up on OMM days. And of course you don't have to dress up on weekends.

http://www.lecom.edu/pros_lecomlife.php
A total of 355 LECOM Class of 2008 graduates have matched in the following programs. This is the first year for LECOM Bradenton graduates to enter the match programs.

Anesthesiology 14
Emergency Medicine 36
Family Medicine 53
Family Medicine/Emergency Medicine 2
Family Medicine/Pediatrics 1
Internal Medicine 60
Internal Medicine/Emergency Medicine 3
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics 1
Neurology 2
OB/GYN 14
Ophthalmology 2
Orthopedics 1
Pathology 1
Pediatrics 22
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation 2
Psychiatry 12
Radiology 2
Surgery 21
Surgery/Neurology 2
Surgery/Orthopedics 13
Traditional/Transitional 91

A total of 179 LECOM Class of 2007 graduates have matched in the following programs:

Traditional Rotating - 64
Internal Medicine - 32
Family Practice - 26
Emergency Medicine - 18
Pediatrics - 11
Obstetrics - Gynecology - 7
General Surgery - 6
Pyschiatry - 5
Orthopedic Surgery - 4
Neurological Surgery - 3
Anesthesiology - 2
Diagnostic Radiology - 1
Pathology - 1

The "Don't go to LECOM" thread to which the OP refers was probably started & perpetuated by people on the wait list trying to scare the accepted applicants. Yes, there is a dress code. Yes, there are rules regarding food & drink. Big deal. I love LECOM, but if you are an immature, unaccountable type, it will suck for you here because they want to weed out the riff-raff (and are very good at so doing). Some people have no business becoming physicians even though they might have decent grades and MCAT scores.

LECOM expects you to be a grown up. If you follow the rules and do the work (and are not an idiot), you will succeed here. Med school is a kick in the bells, an unholy grind no matter where you go. I am getting a world class education here and I highly recommend LECOM to anyone who is a mature and accountable individual of suitable preparation. Right, Ten Bulls?

Originally Posted by amindwalker

The "Don't go to LECOM" thread to which the OP refers was probably started & perpetuated by people on the wait list trying to scare the accepted applicants. Yes, there is a dress code. Yes, there are rules regarding food & drink. Big deal. I love LECOM, but if you are an immature, unaccountable type, it will suck for you here because they want to weed out the riff-raff (and are very good at so doing). Some people have no business becoming physicians even though they might have decent grades and MCAT scores.

LECOM expects you to be a grown up. If you follow the rules and do the work (and are not an idiot), you will succeed here. Med school is a kick in the bells, an unholy grind no matter where you go. I am getting a world class education here and I highly recommend LECOM to anyone who is a mature and accountable individual of suitable preparation. Right, Ten Bulls?

Your assumptions are pretty offensive. For one thing, why would you think that a large portion of people who have successfully pushed their way through an undergraduate pre-med program and been accepted to medical school would be in need of so much hand-holding and direction on matters as elementary as their personal dress? If you feel so many people who ultimately enroll in LECOM are that immature, than what does that say about the LECOM's applicant pool and selection process? Could it be that many of the more mature and capable LECOM applicants are repulsed by their restrictive rules and regulations, leaving (as you describe it) the "riff-raff" to become the student body?

I went through 6 years of Catholic school (middle school/high school). I did well there, but my god I was glad when all of it was over. Rather than looking for the best in their students, those schools always seemed to expect the worst. I was glad to go off to college and finally be treated like the mature, capable adult I always knew I was. Going to a graduate school with rules and policies like this would seem like a big step backwards to me, and it shocks me that so many of us medical students are completely willing to accept this sort of treatment. Giving these institutions the message that we are spineless and accepting of any kind of rules they want to cram down our throats isn't going to be helpful to those students who come after us, or for the profession as a whole.