Anyone wish to join our organization?

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In our quest to educate prospective students about the flat out lies being perpetuated by the AOA and optometric community, we have started a public relations organization to directly challenge the AOA and optometric colleges. We are currently raising advertising funds in order to make the public and students aware of:

- The six figure (on average) student loan debt they will incur.
- The very little ocular disease they will see on a daily basis.
- Optometrists are barred from medical plans in many states.
- Optometrists are not permitted hospital privleges in many states.
- How underqualified they are to treat ocular disease (unless residency
trained), due to not seeing it that much.
- How much their skills will erode after graduation, by not using them and
mainly doing refractions.
- How they are being used as a revenue source for corporate optical
chains and those working there are driving their fellow optometrists in
private practice out of business.
- How unrealistic it is to believe that a new grad will start a practice,
being barred from medical plans, having six figure student loan debt,
retail competition and oversaturation of the marketplace by an influx of
new grads.
- How many new grads will sadly have to work in a retail setting in order
to start making payments on that six figure loan debt.
- How very few patients, (especially in Ca and NY) ever go see their
optometrist for eye related disease or injuries and instead go to their
GP.
- How many patients are being forced financially to join HMO's, which
private practice optometrists are not allowed to see.
- How a patient will go see an MD who is on an insurance plan, rather
than pay privately (out of pocket) to an OD who is not on the plan.
- How many of the things they learned in school are simply to stretch out
the time it takes to complete the program and squeeze out more tuition
dollars from already broke students.
- How optometrists will essentially be trapped unless they have
a spouse with earning potential. How difficult it will be to leave the
profession due high financial obligations, high student loan debt, and an
inability to do anything else with an OD degree.
- How greedy optometric colleges are opening even more schools in an
already oversaturated and hypercompetitive marketplace.

And this is just the beginning.We haven't even begun to discuss the day to day frustrations of the profession such as:

- How optometry has become a volume oriented profession. How OD's will have to see a rediculously high number of patients to scratch out any kind of living.
- How they will constantly have to drop their professional fees to compete with retail.
- How they will have to accept Medicaid and all the bottom feeding eye care plans that spring up on a daily basis.
- How they will like working with imobile and unresponsive geriatics as the population grows older and older.
- How they can not sell contacts effectively due to the low prices offered by Costco and Wallmart.
- How they will like telling people that they are a doctor who works at Wallmart and Costco and seeing the reaction.
- How their consults will magically transform into a referral and a lost patient (Especially in Ca and NY).
- How they will feel about themselves when patients constanly refuse to tell them about sytemic related issues, because, "I'm just here for eyeglasses. I see my doctor for that stuff."

A TV campaign will be starting in the future, combined with visits to local undergradute colleges to warn and potentially save some students from making a horrible mistake.

Any support would be appreciated...

Check with Oculomotor and IndianaOD. This sounds right up their alley.

Originally Posted by aphistis

Check with Oculomotor and IndianaOD. This sounds right up their alley.

Just curious why a dentist is repeatedly browsing and responding to an optometry forum. Business slow?

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

In our quest to educate prospective students about the flat out lies being perpetuated by the AOA and optometric community, we have started a public relations organization to directly challenge the AOA and optometric colleges. We are currently raising advertising funds in order to make the public and students aware of:

- The six figure (on average) student loan debt they will incur.
- The very little ocular disease they will see on a daily basis.
- Optometrists are barred from medical plans in many states.
- Optometrists are not permitted hospital privleges in many states.
- How underqualified they are to treat ocular disease (unless residency
trained), due to not seeing it that much.
- How much their skills will erode after graduation, by not using them and
mainly doing refractions.
- How they are being used as a revenue source for corporate optical
chains and those working there are driving their fellow optometrists in
private practice out of business.
- How unrealistic it is to believe that a new grad will start a practice,
being barred from medical plans, having six figure student loan debt,
retail competition and oversaturation of the marketplace by an influx of
new grads.
- How many new grads will sadly have to work in a retail setting in order
to start making payments on that six figure loan debt.
- How very few patients, (especially in Ca and NY) ever go see their
optometrist for eye related disease or injuries and instead go to their
GP.
- How many patients are being forced financially to join HMO's, which
private practice optometrists are not allowed to see.
- How a patient will go see an MD who is on an insurance plan, rather
than pay privately (out of pocket) to an OD who is not on the plan.
- How many of the things they learned in school are simply to stretch out
the time it takes to complete the program and squeeze out more tuition
dollars from already broke students.
- How optometrists will essentially be trapped unless they have
a spouse with earning potential. How difficult it will be to leave the
profession due high financial obligations, high student loan debt, and an
inability to do anything else with an OD degree.
- How greedy optometric colleges are opening even more schools in an
already oversaturated and hypercompetitive marketplace.

And this is just the beginning.We haven't even begun to discuss the day to day frustrations of the profession such as:

- How optometry has become a volume oriented profession. How OD's will have to see a rediculously high number of patients to scratch out any kind of living.
- How they will constantly have to drop their professional fees to compete with retail.
- How they will have to accept Medicaid and all the bottom feeding eye care plans that spring up on a daily basis.
- How they will like working with imobile and unresponsive geriatics as the population grows older and older.
- How they can not sell contacts effectively due to the low prices offered by Costco and Wallmart.
- How they will like telling people that they are a doctor who works at Wallmart and Costco and seeing the reaction.
- How their consults will magically transform into a referral and a lost patient (Especially in Ca and NY).
- How they will feel about themselves when patients constanly refuse to tell them about sytemic related issues, because, "I'm just here for eyeglasses. I see my doctor for that stuff."

A TV campaign will be starting in the future, combined with visits to local undergradute colleges to warn and potentially save some students from making a horrible mistake.

Any support would be appreciated...

That's funny. I remember you stating how financially well off you are and money wasn't an issue. It seems like a third of your rant is about paying back loans.

For an "educated" person you appear to have a difficult time spelling words correctly.

Typing and spelling are 2 different things, fob. Please respect your superiors.

As a student in Canada, I am paying ~1/3 of the amount for tuition as compared to a student attending the American schools I was accepted to. I believe debt is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.

Use your pristine undergraduate head to think for a moment that maybe those of us who are in school now or who have finished might be interested in ideas like this one to help your pre-optometry/optometry future.

But hey you're, "tha" man, right?

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

Just curious why a dentist is repeatedly browsing and responding to an optometry forum. Business slow?

Because other health professions interest me, because good discussion happens all around the forums, and because keeping an eye on multiple forums comes with the blue mod cross. Is that good enough to get your permission, or do I need to justify myself further?

So what about those of us who realize many of the above problems are a part of any medical profession, or any profession in general, or in life, and that no job is perfect, and are pursuing optometry because they are generally interested in it?

I'll be happy no matter how much money I make. But I applaud you for your knowledge and all the effort you are putting into dissuade people who may want to just be an optometrist because you get a "doctors salary" with good hours and easeir admissions GPA.

Originally Posted by Habitual Rx

Typing and spelling are 2 different things, fob. Please respect your superiors.

As a student in Canada, I am paying ~1/3 of the amount for tuition as compared to a student attending the American schools I was accepted to. I believe debt is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.

Use your pristine undergraduate head to think for a moment that maybe those of us who are in school now or who have finished might be interested in ideas like this one to help your pre-optometry/optometry future.

But hey you're, "tha" man, right?

Exactly! Coming from a guy who spells, "the" as "tha" and he is going after my spelling? I love how this guy isn't even in optometry school yet and is already waving the banner. Tell you what, "notorious" (notoriously ignorant and naive) or "fob" (should be "snob")... When you get into an accredited optometry school and work a few patients up, then maybe you can open your trap. Until then, why don't you leave the discussion to the grownups?

Originally Posted by thanotoriousfob

That's funny. I remember you stating how financially well off you are and money wasn't an issue. It seems like a third of your rant is about paying back loans.

For an "educated" person you appear to have a difficult time spelling words correctly.

I'm fine financially. This isn't about me. We're just looking out for chumps like you who are about to make the biggest mistake of their life. My spelling is just fine BTW.

Originally Posted by hurricaneuro

So what about those of us who realize many of the above problems are a part of any medical profession, or any profession in general, or in life, and that no job is perfect, and are pursuing optometry because they are generally interested in it?

I'll be happy no matter how much money I make. But I applaud you for your knowledge and all the effort you are putting into dissuade people who may want to just be an optometrist because you get a "doctors salary" with good hours and easeir admissions GPA.

If you don't agree, don't continue to read. Believe it or not, there are many students we have reached. You should see the number of e-mails we get from students thanking us for talking them out of an impulsive, uninformed decision, or a consolation prize for not achieving what they set out to when they began undergrad.
If you really think refraction is interesting, I challenge you to do 10,000 and then come back and talk to me.

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

If you don't agree, don't continue to read. Believe it or not, there are many students we have reached. You should see the number of e-mails we get from students thanking us for talking them out of an impulsive, uninformed decision, or a consolation prize for not achieving what they set out to when they began undergrad.
If you really think refraction is interesting, I challenge you to do 10,000 and then come back and talk to me.

Who is the "we" here? Are you part of some sort of organization or organized movement?

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

If you don't agree, don't continue to read. Believe it or not, there are many students we have reached. You should see the number of e-mails we get from students thanking us for talking them out of an impulsive, uninformed decision, or a consolation prize for not achieving what they set out to when they began undergrad.
If you really think refraction is interesting, I challenge you to do 10,000 and then come back and talk to me.

I never said I disagreed. I said I applaud you for taking the time to do this.

Second of all, I'm not making an impulsive decision. I have wanted to do this for a long time.

It's not uninformed, I've been researching the career and boards like this also.

Lastly, I never wanted to go to medical school so optometry school is not a consolation prize for me.

Just trying to show that there are people out there (like me) who think that a job is more than a salary and all of the negative things that come along with it. No matter how little of an impact a doctor has on a patient, they are helping them. That's what is important to me.

Originally Posted by Habitual Rx

Typing and spelling are 2 different things, fob. Please respect your superiors.

As a student in Canada, I am paying ~1/3 of the amount for tuition as compared to a student attending the American schools I was accepted to. I believe debt is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.

Use your pristine undergraduate head to think for a moment that maybe those of us who are in school now or who have finished might be interested in ideas like this one to help your pre-optometry/optometry future.

But hey you're, "tha" man, right?

I'm glad to see you are "educated" too my friend to the north. Last I checked typing requires spelling. Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

Exactly! Coming from a guy who spells, "the" as "tha" and he is going after my spelling? I love how this guy isn't even in optometry school yet and is already waving the banner. Tell you what, "notorious" (notoriously ignorant and naive) or "fob" (should be "snob")... When you get into an accredited optometry school and work a few patients up, then maybe you can open your trap. Until then, why don't you leave the discussion to the grownups?

Here we go with the name calling again. Habitual are you Canadian? You should have seen how this guy ripped into Canada in his other threads. You trap him in a corner and he starts to get nasty! Watch out!

Trust me thought, your insults don't hurt me. If anything you leave me feeling sorry for you. How is fire fighting school going?

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

I'm fine financially. This isn't about me. We're just looking out for chumps like you who are about to make the biggest mistake of their life. My spelling is just fine BTW.

Is it now? Did you go back and edit your first post?

Originally Posted by hurricaneuro

I never said I disagreed. I said I applaud you for taking the time to do this.

Second of all, I'm not making an impulsive decision. I have wanted to do this for a long time.

It's not uninformed, I've been researching the career and boards like this also.

Lastly, I never wanted to go to medical school so optometry school is not a consolation prize for me.

Just trying to show that there are people out there (like me) who think that a job is more than a salary and all of the negative things that come along with it. No matter how little of an impact a doctor has on a patient, they are helping them. That's what is important to me.

Hurricaneuro, I applaud you for your honesty. Do what you want and don't let this guy tell you otherwise.

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

We are currently raising advertising funds in order to make the public and students aware of:

Not that I disagree with all of your downsides to the profession, but dont you think that you would do more good by using that money to change some of these "faults" of optometry than by advetising to everyone how terrible optometry is? To me this would only confuse the public more while not making a bit of difference to the problems listed.

Does the real problem lie with the students who pursue optometry, or with the problems you mentioned?

SaveYourself, you definitely have strong convictions and a lot of energy. In order to learn more about yourself I had a few questions:

What school did you graduate from and in what year? Approximately how much was the average debt of your graduating class (if known, or what was yours?)
What state do you practice in?
What is your current mode of practice?
How many patients do you see a day?
What is the name of your organization, how many current members?

I think offering more details about yourself might lend more credibility, otherwise people might consider you just a troll trying to stir up trouble and this thread will be closed soon.

To be honest, I am genuinely curious about your situation. I am a first year student of optometry only done with 1 quarter so you could help your movement one person at a time and tell me more about yourself if you are truthful in wanting to help me save myself.

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

A TV campaign will be starting in the future, combined with visits to local undergradute colleges to warn and potentially save some students from making a horrible mistake.

Your intentions are indeed honorable, but they are not well thought-through.

Campaigning that optometry is not a good profession will "save" some students who would otherwise become optometrists. By the same token, you are now "damning" a whole group of newly-admitted students who would've otherwise not been admitted to optometry school, if it were not for these newly-created vacancies caused by students who are now "saved".

How do you intend to "save" those students who would've been saved had you NOT implemented your plan, but who are now damned because they have now been admitted to optometry school, because of your actions?

Originally Posted by qwopty99

How do you intend to "save" those students who would've been saved had you NOT implemented your plan, but who are now damned because they have now been admitted to optometry school, because of YOUR actions?

Qwopty makes a really good point. There's no way any "campaign" like this could cause a net drop in the number of students entering the optometric profession. All you could hope to accomplish is to dumb down our stock. No college is going to have trouble filling their seats as a result of your actions, they'll just pull more people from the second string (maybe even 3rd or 4th string—we've got the depth) into the game.

Originally Posted by KHE

Who is the "we" here? Are you part of some sort of organization or organized movement?

In the last thread with this fellow, I raised some suspicions about him having imaginary friends.

Given that he seems to be the only member of this "Join OUR movement" call-to-arms, I think these suspicions may be warranted.

Originally Posted by SaveYourself

In our quest to educate prospective students about the flat out lies being perpetuated by the AOA and optometric community, we have started a public relations organization to directly challenge the AOA and optometric colleges. We are currently raising advertising funds in order to make the public and students aware of:

- The six figure (on average) student loan debt they will incur.
- The very little ocular disease they will see on a daily basis.
- Optometrists are barred from medical plans in many states.
- Optometrists are not permitted hospital privleges in many states.
- How underqualified they are to treat ocular disease (unless residency
trained), due to not seeing it that much.
- How much their skills will erode after graduation, by not using them and
mainly doing refractions.
- How they are being used as a revenue source for corporate optical
chains and those working there are driving their fellow optometrists in
private practice out of business.
- How unrealistic it is to believe that a new grad will start a practice,
being barred from medical plans, having six figure student loan debt,
retail competition and oversaturation of the marketplace by an influx of
new grads.
- How many new grads will sadly have to work in a retail setting in order
to start making payments on that six figure loan debt.
- How very few patients, (especially in Ca and NY) ever go see their
optometrist for eye related disease or injuries and instead go to their
GP.
- How many patients are being forced financially to join HMO's, which
private practice optometrists are not allowed to see.
- How a patient will go see an MD who is on an insurance plan, rather
than pay privately (out of pocket) to an OD who is not on the plan.
- How many of the things they learned in school are simply to stretch out
the time it takes to complete the program and squeeze out more tuition
dollars from already broke students.
- How optometrists will essentially be trapped unless they have
a spouse with earning potential. How difficult it will be to leave the
profession due high financial obligations, high student loan debt, and an
inability to do anything else with an OD degree.
- How greedy optometric colleges are opening even more schools in an
already oversaturated and hypercompetitive marketplace.

And this is just the beginning.We haven't even begun to discuss the day to day frustrations of the profession such as:

- How optometry has become a volume oriented profession. How OD's will have to see a rediculously high number of patients to scratch out any kind of living.
- How they will constantly have to drop their professional fees to compete with retail.
- How they will have to accept Medicaid and all the bottom feeding eye care plans that spring up on a daily basis.
- How they will like working with imobile and unresponsive geriatics as the population grows older and older.
- How they can not sell contacts effectively due to the low prices offered by Costco and Wallmart.
- How they will like telling people that they are a doctor who works at Wallmart and Costco and seeing the reaction.
- How their consults will magically transform into a referral and a lost patient (Especially in Ca and NY).
- How they will feel about themselves when patients constanly refuse to tell them about sytemic related issues, because, "I'm just here for eyeglasses. I see my doctor for that stuff."

A TV campaign will be starting in the future, combined with visits to local undergradute colleges to warn and potentially save some students from making a horrible mistake.

Any support would be appreciated...

My God.

The chances of you actually carrying out this campaign are low.

The chances of you being successful in this campaign are low.

I cannot believe you put in time to produce such an extensive analysis of Optometry, when you stated you will be moving out of the profession.

I mean lets face it, the only reason these obvious facts were listed is because the other thread was closed....GROW THE **** UP please.

On another note, I will offer a piece of advice. Since the rate of success of this whole project is low(due to the locality of the campaign) , I would recommend that you and your colleagues (if you have any) bring about the PRO's of other professions in a comparative fashion.


And WTF, why are you expecting a bunch of SDN'ers to help this cause? You should be focusing STRICTLY on the AOA and Faculty members of schools in different parts of the country; maybe even international schools.

Im gonna say it again though. This thread was created because the other one was locked. Oh yeah, think global, not local.

Originally Posted by KHE

Who is the "we" here? Are you part of some sort of organization or organized movement?

I think he's teamed up with "Me, Myself and I."

Originally Posted by hurricaneuro

I never said I disagreed. I said I applaud you for taking the time to do this.

Second of all, I'm not making an impulsive decision. I have wanted to do this for a long time.

It's not uninformed, I've been researching the career and boards like this also.

Lastly, I never wanted to go to medical school so optometry school is not a consolation prize for me.

Just trying to show that there are people out there (like me) who think that a job is more than a salary and all of the negative things that come along with it. No matter how little of an impact a doctor has on a patient, they are helping them. That's what is important to me.

Respect.

Why not use this energy to try to make optometry better (even in any little way you can)?

Someone needs to figure out a way to ban trolls from posting in these types of forums...

To be honest, I don't find the opening post in this thread particularly offensive. He basically presents a position, an argument.

The other thread is what I had an issue with (he started making personal remarks and basically insulted everyone who didn't agree with him), but the opening post in this thread, in my opinion, is fair.