DO vs Carib from a Carib student

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Hey all,

WARNING: this is a long post, but if you want my opinion on DO vs. Carib, please read!


It's been a while since i've been on this forum and a lot has changed. At one point, I applied to D.O. schools and was rejected/wait-listed and decided not to try again, so I headed to a caribbean school (one of the big 4). for respect of the school, its alum, its students, and its faculty, i will not name the school-- but you may be able to figure it out.

so i got to school and the island was pretty nice, very westernized, and probably the most 'livable' of the islands of the big 4 (should be a dead giveaway at this point). so living and modern conveniences weren't a problem. in school, i struggled with it. i don't know how i passed first semester, but i did. i worked my butt of, as did the rest of my class, and every day was a struggle. [don't let the misconceptions fool you-- just because it is the caribbean doesn't mean people don't care about their future. many people (like me) gave up their job for this and weren't going to just throw it out the window.. so just to reiterated, EVERYONE i knew worked hard.]

second semester, i ended up failing out of school. i took a semester off to re-evaluate what went wrong and what i needed to do. i learned that i wasn't studying properly and i needed to be constantly REVIEWING because i understood everything, but when test time rolled around, i forgot a lot. the amount of material is not like undergrad and you have to be reviewing every day the stuff for the week and reviewing the entire block up until where you are that weekend on the weekends. ironically, i figured out this study method my last block of the last semester there. but by then, i mathematically needed 90's on the block to even have a chance at passing with a passing grade on the final (yes, it was that bad).

so i took a semester off and thought about going into accounting or something else. my failure made me believe that i wasn't intellient enough to become a physician. the irony is that i had the work ethic. my friends back at school saw how hard i worked and felt bad about my outcome. after a long discussion with my parents, i decided to give it another shot and i transferred to another school (a non-big 4 carib school w/o gov't loans). i'm taking out private loans and my parents are also helping me out with the difference. long story short, i took what i learned from my previous school and used my study method and am doing just fine here.

i came here to let everyone know that if i had the choice (which i didnt because i didnt get accepted to a DO school), i would have chosen DO-- simply on the attrition rate of carib schools. i understand that there isn't much hand-holding in med school, but i believe that the US scools (MD/DO) have academic resources and counselors that guide students to the right path. i didn't have that luxury and learned the hard way. in the caribbean, so many students enter and so many eventually fail out (trust me, i wasn't the only one-- there were MANY) that they (the faculty and counselors) are almost immune to it. what most people don't realize is that a good MAJORITY of the entering classes don't graduate ON TIME (in 5 semesters). you fail ONE class, you have to repeat it, and it delays your leaving the island by a full semester (not to mention, more money for the school). majority of my friends are still there, just a semester behind schedule-- with the pressure of not having to fail a class or else they reach their limit, like i did-- very stressful situation! but it is a part of 'the business of carib schools'. as evidenced with the attrition rate of DO/MD schools vs. carib schools, i have no doubt in my mind that DO schools cater to the success of their students more.

financially as it stands, i owe a lot of money to those 2 semesters of my first school school and on top of it, i will owe private loans with ridiculous interest rates at my new school. again, another reason to pick DO over carib.

Again, if I had my choice, it would be DO over caribbean (knowing what i know now).. since i'm only a 2nd semester transfer, i'd be willing to say that I'd start over from scratch if I got into a DO school. However, with my track record, I doubt I'd be accepted. If anyone has any questions, feel free to reply or PM me.. I can't promised I'd get back to everyone prompty-- i'm currently in school now but our 3rd block isnt until the end of the month, so it's not too crazy right now

thanks for telling us your thoughts...good luck with your future

Originally Posted by time2go

thanks for telling us your thoughts...good luck with your future

he/she certainly will need it

...

thanks for sharing the experiences.

I hope it works out for you.

Originally Posted by Demas567

he/she certainly will need it

No knocks needed against the person that has come to terms with their situation and was offering encouragement.

I'm sure the OP is aware it is still an uphill battle, so I wish him all the best.

Dang, non big 4 Carribean. That's a whole battle by itself. Definitely good luck.

Originally Posted by MossPoh

No knocks needed against the person that has come to terms with their situation and was offering encouragement.

I'm sure the OP is aware it is still an uphill battle, so I wish him all the best.

No worries. My comment wasn't meant to come off as negative. It's just that the person's situation is a little...extreme.

Great thread. It's nice to finally get one of these assessments that is 1st hand knowledge. I can't even explain how many 'my friend's at x Caribbean school and is doing y' there are on the boards. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Demas567

No worries. My comment wasn't meant to come off as negative. It's just that the person's situation is a little...extreme.

Demas,

i wouldn't say that my situation is "extreme".. a LOT of people are in my situation that i started school with at my first school.. the attrition rate in the carib goes unnoticed and unreported.. you have to remember, the schools are for-profit institutions outside of the U.S.-- there really is no governing body that requires them to report their information. trust me, this was always my concern before i went down to the caribbean (the attrition rate), but i always told myself, "well, people are failing out because they aren't studying and/or partying too much".. that's a load of B.S. like i said earlier, people down there tried/are trying their best. i gave up my career for this, as did others, so we take/took it seriously.

and this is why i think you have to try to stay in the states (whether it be DO or MD) as much as possible. it's a big time investment of your time and money, and staying state-side is a big protection on your investment.

i'm not big into numbers, but i'd say that of my starting class of 90 or so, about 40 are on their way to finishing on time, half of the rest have been booted out and the other half of the rest are a semester behind because they have failed a class-- those numbers are tremendous. how do i know this? because i personally know everyone in my class and where they end up. it's 90 people you see every day and you live in the on-campus housing with every day.. trust me, you get to know everyone quickly.

just a warning for those considering carib schools-- stay on the stateside because it's the closest to a 'guarantee on your future' that you'll get to being a physician.

Originally Posted by cee

Demas,

i wouldn't say that my situation is "extreme".. a LOT of people are in my situation that i started school with at my first school.. the attrition rate in the carib goes unnoticed and unreported.. you have to remember, the schools are for-profit institutions outside of the U.S.-- there really is no governing body that requires them to report their information. trust me, this was always my concern before i went down to the caribbean (the attrition rate), but i always told myself, "well, people are failing out because they aren't studying and/or partying too much".. that's a load of B.S. like i said earlier, people down there tried/are trying their best. i gave up my career for this, as did others, so we take/took it seriously.

and this is why i think you have to try to stay in the states (whether it be DO or MD) as much as possible. it's a big time investment of your time and money, and staying state-side is a big protection on your investment.

i'm not big into numbers, but i'd say that of my starting class of 90 or so, about 40 are on their way to finishing on time, half of the rest have been booted out and the other half of the rest are a semester behind because they have failed a class-- those numbers are tremendous. how do i know this? because i personally know everyone in my class and where they end up. it's 90 people you see every day and you live in the on-campus housing with every day.. trust me, you get to know everyone quickly.

just a warning for those considering carib schools-- stay on the stateside because it's the closest to a 'guarantee on your future' that you'll get to being a physician.

Thank you for the information. I was also under this impression until this post, and it puts a lot more things into perspective. My original plan was to apply to MD and DO schools, with preference toward DO because I agree with the philosophy and there's a few of them near my home. My backup was Caribbean, but since I've been reading..it seams that the better idea is to reapply and take the year off. Hopefully that won't be necessary for me though

BTW if you don't mind me asking, what were your undergrad stats and MCAT score?

thank you OP for sharing your story in an honest and clear manner. best of luck in your future.

Thank you very much for sharing! I wish you the best of luck!
P.S. I second the question about your GPA and MCAT scores initially going in if you don't mind sharing.

Originally Posted by doxycycline

Thank you for the information. I was also under this impression until this post, and it puts a lot more things into perspective. My original plan was to apply to MD and DO schools, with preference toward DO because I agree with the philosophy and there's a few of them near my home. My backup was Caribbean, but since I've been reading..it seams that the better idea is to reapply and take the year off. Hopefully that won't be necessary for me though

BTW if you don't mind me asking, what were your undergrad stats and MCAT score?

well, i wasn't a pre-med major in college.. i graduated with an economics degree and a 2.6 gpa.. i just wanted to graduate and get a job. it wasn't until i was working in the real world that i decided to become a physician.. i went back to school, did the prereq's at USF (hence my logo), got like a 3.8 in the sciences, got a 20 and a 22 on the MCAT.

i'm 27 and going on 28 now. i was tired of waiting and i probably should have given myself another year of applying and improving my stats.

the cons to my experience: obviously failing out was a humbling experience. the money and debt is also a big con

the pros to my experience: i'm treating my experience at my first school as kind of like a post-bacc where i didn't get accepted into the school. it gave me a 1st hand look at what med school was like-- more importantly, i found my study method that i feel like i could take to any med school.

my opinion is that the carib schools (esp the big 4) raise the bar a bit higher for their students. their goal: to ensure that everyone that graduates passes the STEP on the first try, and unfortunately it means weeding out those that cast doubt. carib schools are in business strictly on their reputation.. they love to claim that over 90% pass step on the first try.. yet, they need to bring in less qualified applications (statistically) for the profit (more seats filled, more money).

i have a good friend at a DO school with similar academic stats than mine, but with far more extracurriculars than i had and she's doing fine.. my impression is that at US schools (MD/DO), they do their best at helping people reach their academic potential-- if you're struggling, they're there to help you get there. it looks bad when a school in america fails people out at high numbers.. that is why they try to get the best qualified who they think can be alright. on top of that, when you're in america, you're more under the public eye and if you're doing something extreme (like high attrition rates) you will get noticed. out here in the caribbean, there's no one telling these institutions what stats they need to publish (or if they have to at all).

the feeling i get down here is more like, "here's the material, we're gonna raise the bar higher to make sure the only people who get by are the ones we know will pass the STEP on the first try, let's see who sinks and who swims".. i don't blame them tho. coming from a business background, they are there to give us a last chance.. and reputation wise, it would not be wise for them to graduate students who aren't proficient in passing. however, they have lower admissions standards so it makes sense why they would rather not pass someone as opposed to coaching them up to their potential.

I think the tone of your story would have been completely different had you not failed and had you been close to leaving the island.. attrition rate is not an issue at all if you are a strong student.

I m in my last semester at SGU (on the island atleast) and I m very glad I came here instead of reapplying to US MD schools; I thought long and hard about DO schools before coming here and they are great options as well; but aftering talking to many doctors and family members (who are also doctors) in the area the general conscensus was to go to the caribbean bc the DO bias was still very large in cali (physicians were fired from private practices bc the patients didnt want to see them...).

The two biggest advantages in going to DO schools instead of carribean is:

1) not having to leave the US; not a huge deal bc you get use to island life and make tons of friends

2) biggest advantage: DO only residency match... making it easier for DO students to match into more competitive fields (like ortho, radiology, ent); be it in osteopathic residency programs instead of allopathic..atleast you got you re foot into the door of the field.

After island life DO and carribean students tend to rotate at the same hospitals and tend to get the same allopathic residencies; osteopathic residencies giving the DO students a slight advantage in the more competitive residencies....but carrib students can definitely still get them with a prelim year or a research-fellowship year.

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

I think the tone of your story would have been completely different had you not failed and had you been close to leaving the island.. attrition rate is not an issue at all if you are a strong student.

no offense, but strong students generally don't end up carrib

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

I think the tone of your story would have been completely different had you not failed and had you been close to leaving the island.. attrition rate is not an issue at all if you are a strong student.

I m in my last semester at SGU (on the island atleast) and I m very glad I came here instead of reapplying to US MD schools; I thought long and hard about DO schools before coming here and they are great options as well; but aftering talking to many doctors and family members (who are also doctors) in the area the general conscensus was to go to the caribbean bc the DO bias was still very large in cali (physicians were fired from private practices bc the patients didnt want to see them...).

The two biggest advantages in going to DO schools instead of carribean is:

1) not having to leave the US; not a huge deal bc you get use to island life and make tons of friends

2) biggest advantage: DO only residency match... making it easier for DO students to match into more competitive fields (like ortho, radiology, ent); be it in osteopathic residency programs instead of allopathic..atleast you got you re foot into the door of the field.

After island life DO and carribean students tend to rotate at the same hospitals and tend to get the same allopathic residencies; osteopathic residencies giving the DO students a slight advantage in the more competitive residencies....but carrib students can definitely still get them with a prelim year or a research-fellowship year.

Good luck with that killer Cali job. It always screams security to me when people bump a 6 month old thread to say how happy they are.

Originally Posted by bleargh

no offense, but strong students generally don't end up carrib

oh no he didnt!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by ahmede19

oh no he didnt!!!!!!!!!!

lol kinda true

Epic re-birth of a thread. Sorry, I just had to.

I'm glad he rebirthed the thread cause I've never seen it! good information all together!

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

physicians were fired from private practices bc the patients didnt want to see them...)

Are you implying that the physicians was fired because they were a DO or because they weren't competent physicians?

So I know a lot of a students go to the islands after high school and they don't have a bachelors degree. Are they ever questioned about not having one? Just curious because a relative I know (who I don't get along with is down there). I do know it is much harder for them to get residency being international and all but are their applications looked at last?

Originally Posted by Mohammed1989

Are they ever questioned about not having one?

Nope. The bachelor's degree is a requirement for U.S. medical schools. If you finish medical school outside the U.S., no one will ever care if you finished a bacherlor's degree or not. I have many relatives that are foreign grads who went onto medical school right out of high school. Remember, in some countries (e.g. U.K., India, etc.) their medical degree is a bachelors degree (i.e. M.B.B.S.).

Originally Posted by Mohammed1989

I do know it is much harder for them to get residency being international and all but are their applications looked at last?

That's sort of true. From what I know, most residencies in the U.S. give preference to U.S. graduates and then fill up empty slots with foreign grads. But if you did great at a foreign medical school, scored in the 99th percentile on the USMLE and have an outstanding resume, I can definitely see you being a competitive candidate along with U.S. grads.

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

DO and carribean students tend to rotate at the same hospitals and tend to get the same allopathic residencies

Yeah, I'm sure the Wake Forest and VCU rads programs and Hopkins gas programs are chock full of Carib grads. I'm so glad they have accomplished the same level of residencies as my school's alumni have done. Oh wait...

Thanks for bumping a 6-month old thread with useless anecdotal information.

Originally Posted by MedicIL

Are you implying that the physicians was fired because they were a DO or because they weren't competent physicians?

He's regurgitating third party - 'I know a girl, who's cousin works with a guy who's brother is a DO in CA and ....' information. Pure conjecture and completely untrue.

Originally Posted by MedicIL

Are you implying that the physicians was fired because they were a DO or because they weren't competent physicians?

"Sorry, we're firing you because you are a D.O."

L-A-W-S-U-I-T

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

I think the tone of your story would have been completely different had you not failed and had you been close to leaving the island.. attrition rate is not an issue at all if you are a strong student.

I m in my last semester at SGU (on the island atleast) and I m very glad I came here instead of reapplying to US MD schools; I thought long and hard about DO schools before coming here and they are great options as well; but aftering talking to many doctors and family members (who are also doctors) in the area the general conscensus was to go to the caribbean bc the DO bias was still very large in cali (physicians were fired from private practices bc the patients didnt want to see them...).

The two biggest advantages in going to DO schools instead of carribean is:

1) not having to leave the US; not a huge deal bc you get use to island life and make tons of friends

2) biggest advantage: DO only residency match... making it easier for DO students to match into more competitive fields (like ortho, radiology, ent); be it in osteopathic residency programs instead of allopathic..atleast you got you re foot into the door of the field.

After island life DO and carribean students tend to rotate at the same hospitals and tend to get the same allopathic residencies; osteopathic residencies giving the DO students a slight advantage in the more competitive residencies....but carrib students can definitely still get them with a prelim year or a research-fellowship year.

I have seen you post this information time and time again. I am happy you are content with your decision. I don't care where you go to school as long as you work hard and become a good doctor. However, you seem like you have something to prove by talking about this all the time. I mean you just bumped a old thread.

Good luck

Originally Posted by bleargh

no offense, but strong students generally don't end up carrib

Students that end up in the carribean have the same undergrad stats as those entering DO schools..

Originally Posted by USArmyDoc

I have seen you post this information time and time again. I am happy you are content with your decision. I don't care where you go to school as long as you work hard and become a good doctor. However, you seem like you have something to prove by talking about this all the time. I mean you just bumped a old thread.

Good luck

I came across this thread at the bottom of my screen when I was on another thread..you know where they list related topics. I admit i didnt look at when it was created.

Nothing to prove about DO vs. Carribean... hardly makes any difference to anyone once they are actually in med school or working. When you re in med school grades, board scores, possible research of greater interest and importance. Main people who are debating/aruging it are premeds in the first place.. we all know how much premeds actually know.

Never said anything bad about DO schools/students/doctors...said they have an advantage do to the DO match; but clinical rotations wise/residencies from the top DO school at allopathic spots are very very similar to SGU. Infact I strongly considered DO school for a long time (see my old posts).

The incident about DO getting fired: no one every questioned if they were competent doctors (that was a non-issue) they were let go bc to many patients objected to seeing them on too regular of a basis. I heard this from 3 doctors IN/FROM from two different practices. This was in California (which is is well known to have bias against DOs); from what I hear the bias is much less on the eastcoast and midwest..

Point of the post was this kid failed bc of his own mistakes and blames the school to make himself feel better.. I ve only heard of a very few remote incidents of people being kicked out here at my medical school (SGU) and all of those were in the first semester.

Originally Posted by bioman2006

Yeah, I'm sure the Wake Forest and VCU rads programs and Hopkins gas programs are chock full of Carib grads. I'm so glad they have accomplished the same level of residencies as my school's alumni have done. Oh wait...

Thanks for bumping a 6-month old thread with useless anecdotal information.

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2009/Re...=PGY2&Count=-1

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2008/Re...=PGY2&Count=-1

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

Students that end up in the carribean have the same undergrad stats as those entering DO schools..

Not necessarily. That's a gross generalization.

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2009/Re...=PGY2&Count=-1

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2008/Re...=PGY2&Count=-1

How long on average does it take for an SGU grad to match, following graduation?

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

Students that end up in the carribean have the same undergrad stats as those entering DO schools..

I know of people that did not get into DO and went carribean, but none that did not get in carribean and went DO.

take it for what you will

old one

NRA ... your being pathetic. Stop. No one cares. It's awesome that you have convinced yourself you're happy!! You don't need to convince us.

DO is a far better route than a Caribbean school. Also DO schools are far more selective than Caribbean schools. The reason so many people fail out of Caribbean schools is because they take sub par students. I have considered Caribbean schools but after looking at them, I would rather go to a DO school as there is more certainty. Attrition at DO schools is either nil or never more than 1 percent, you go through rigorous screening process so I really doubt people who get into these schools wind up getting kicked out.

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

...physicians were fired from private practices bc the patients didnt want to see them.

Yes. I am sure patients would feel better that their doctor went to Bob Marley University in the Carribean instead of some "suspicious" DO schools like Michigan State or LECOM, because the public doesnt have any bias against Carribean docs at all, do they....

No fighting please

I wonder how OP is doing now

I'm not sure why you guys are giving NRAI such a hard time. A lot of what he says are true. I can't help but sense a whiff of hypocrisy among some of you who are bashing him. DO's and Caribbean students do indeed do a lot rotations together. This is particularly true in New York and Illinois. Secondly, for some of the Caribbean schools such as SGU, the admission stats are indeed similar to DO schools (27, 3.5). There are of course shadier Caribbean schools that don't even need the MCAT, but I think NRAI was comparing the 50-state Carib schools like SGU to the DO schools. Still, DO is probably a better option for most people than the Caribbean, but there are many good apples that come from the Carib (it's easy to get in, hard to get out). To say broadly that there are no strong students at the Caribbean and to call NRAI "pathetic" makes you look pretty conceited. People change, people grow, and numbers aren't everything. Isn't this one of the main values of DO admissions too?

Originally Posted by womp

I'm not sure why you guys are giving NRAI such a hard time. A lot of what he says are true. I can't help but sense a whiff of hypocrisy among some of you who are bashing him. DO's and Caribbean students do indeed do a lot rotations together. This is particularly true in New York and Illinois. Secondly, for some of the Caribbean schools such as SGU, the admission stats are indeed similar to DO schools (27, 3.5). There are of course shadier Caribbean schools that don't even need the MCAT, but I think NRAI was comparing the 50-state Carib schools like SGU to the DO schools. Still, DO is probably a better option for most people than the Caribbean, but there are many good apples that come from the Carib (it's easy to get in, hard to get out). To say broadly that there are no strong students at the Caribbean and to call NRAI "pathetic" makes you look pretty conceited. People change, people grow, and numbers aren't everything. Isn't this one of the main values of DO admissions too?

1. We're not bashing him. He bumped a 6 month thread to tell us how happy he was and how awesome the Caribbean is. What do you expect??

2. Don't trust SGU stats. If they have similar stats to DO schools, why is the attrition rate so high? Why is board pass rate so low? Why is ACGME match rate lower than DO??? They are notorious for bending facts (ie releasing match lists of only matched students despite it taking certain students multiple years, holding people back from taking boards etc).

3. DO schools are respectable, domesitc medical schools. Caribbean schools should be a last ditch effort when you have no other options.

I'm from Southern California and DO's are doing just fine there. I can't comment on DO docs getting fired, but I can offer my own anecdote. The DO anesthesiologist I shadowed in San Diego was offered a job in the bay area after his UCLA residency (not Harbor, the main campus). He told me that the bias up north is there but it isn't as big a deal as NRAI is making it out to be. When he applied they asked him to do a few cases to see if he was up to snuff, and when they found out that he was, they offered him a job.

Btw I'd like to plug Nova Southeastern. I've been here for four weeks and I think it's awesome.

1. I had a great day in anatomy lab today. There's a hand surgeon who helps out there and when our group asked him for help he basically went completely through hand/forearm anatomy with us with a clinical slant (he's still practing so he'd tell us about all the things that could break/tear and how he'd go about fixing them)

2. We have a course called IGC where we "shadow" docs and I lucked the hell out with my doc, who turned out to be a really proactive teacher. I sat in on an HIV patient, a car accident patient who was recuperating, and a patient with pneumonia, among others and she let us get hands on with some of them, and would take me and the other student shadowing in the back room after each one and go through the case with us. It's amazing because some of the stuff I've learned in OMM and biochem these past four weeks really helped me look for landmarks and understand what the hell she was talking about.

3. The admin here is really receptive to student input. We complained about Tegrity, the video recording system they have to record lectures, and they're bringing in people to revamp it.

4."Most" of the lecturers haven't put me to sleep, Dr Block being the exception.

5. My classmates are friendly and many already have grad degrees (mostly masters, and one or two PhDs) in one thing or another. I don't think that's specific to my school but it's nice to study with people like that. There are also a grip of cute girls in my M1 class and around campus in general (undergrad). Florida, baby.

6. Awesome gym. Awesome library with lots of resources.

7. I'm in the Rolling Hills graduate housing and got a great room. I can see the campus, and the sunrise, a lake, and a golf course from my window. There are crazy thunderstorms here and they're quite the sight from where I am.

8. Miami Beach. Awesome. Las Olas. Awesome. Civilization. Awesome.

9. I took out the max in financial aid and I got lotsa money to play with. Whoopee. As braluk says, Financial Aid ballin'!

10. God I'm happy. I study everyday until I pass out but it took me three years of absolute hell to get to this point and none of that pressure is there anymore. Even if I graduate last in my class I'll have a secure six figure job somewhere and that is a fine feeling.

Originally Posted by NRAI2001

I came across this thread at the bottom of my screen when I was on another thread..you know where they list related topics. I admit i didnt look at when it was created.

Nothing to prove about DO vs. Carribean... hardly makes any difference to anyone once they are actually in med school or working. When you re in med school grades, board scores, possible research of greater interest and importance. Main people who are debating/aruging it are premeds in the first place.. we all know how much premeds actually know.

Never said anything bad about DO schools/students/doctors...said they have an advantage do to the DO match; but clinical rotations wise/residencies from the top DO school at allopathic spots are very very similar to SGU. Infact I strongly considered DO school for a long time (see my old posts).

The incident about DO getting fired: no one every questioned if they were competent doctors (that was a non-issue) they were let go bc to many patients objected to seeing them on too regular of a basis. I heard this from 3 doctors IN/FROM from two different practices. This was in California (which is is well known to have bias against DOs); from what I hear the bias is much less on the eastcoast and midwest..

Point of the post was this kid failed bc of his own mistakes and blames the school to make himself feel better.. I ve only heard of a very few remote incidents of people being kicked out here at my medical school (SGU) and all of those were in the first semester.

Hey man....I understand and I am totally cool with it all. As long as people are happy and practicing well who cares, ya know.

How was that masters program?

Originally Posted by womp

I'm not sure why you guys are giving NRAI such a hard time. A lot of what he says are true.

Actually, most of what he says ISN'T true. Most of the folks in the Carib are ones who didn't get into DO schools. Name a DO student who didn't get into Carib schools. The fact is that even SGU has a very high attrition rate compared to any school in the U.S. -- DO or MD. And by the way, I very highly doubt any doctor was fired because patients didn't want to see a DO. If he was a bad doctor, then he was a bad doctor, but I will eat my shoe if he got fired simply because of the letters after his name. Anyone who believes that story is as big a tool as the person telling it.

I can't help but sense a whiff of hypocrisy among some of you who are bashing him. DO's and Caribbean students do indeed do a lot rotations together.

US MD's and Carib students rotate together too. Does that make the Carib on par with U.S. MD schools?

Secondly, for some of the Caribbean schools such as SGU, the admission stats are indeed similar to DO schools (27, 3.5).

Maybe of those who complete the program. I don't buy that SGU is that selective. Like it or not, the Carib -- including SGU -- is and has always been a last resort for students. Let's not make it something it's not.

Still, DO is probably a better option for most people than the Caribbean, but there are many good apples that come from the Carib (it's easy to get in, hard to get out).

That's absolutely laughable. Check out those attrition rates.

To say broadly that there are no strong students at the Caribbean and to call NRAI "pathetic" makes you look pretty conceited. People change, people grow, and numbers aren't everything. Isn't this one of the main values of DO admissions too?

No one said that there are no strong students in the Carib, just that DO is always a better option for a student who isn't hung-up on the letters M and D. The fact is that in the allo match last year 70% of DO's matched while only 40% of the Carib MD's matched. The remaining 30% of the DO's sought DO-only residencies after the scramble so it's quite possible 99% of DO's matched somewhere. How anyone can say Carib is still a better option than DO is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by ILikeFood

Btw I'd like to plug Nova Southeastern. I've been here for four weeks and I think it's awesome.

I second your plug for NSUCOM!

Thanks alot for this info... I truly was thinking bout Caribbean med school since my GPA is not very good, but after knowing all this stuff i'll probably won't even apply to those schools.

I liked reading your story but its very sad, I am sorry that it turned out like this for you.

Originally Posted by MedStudentWanna

Maybe of those who complete the program. I don't buy that SGU is that selective. Like it or not, the Carib -- including SGU -- is and has always been a last resort for students. Let's not make it something it's not.

I get the feeling that you are making comments without any true knowledge of the situation. Womp has many good points. Did you actually apply to SGU this year? I did, and thus might be a better person to clear up some of this misinformation.

I personally know people who were accepted to some DO schools but not to SGU. One of my classmates at AZCOM this year, who is also a member of SDN and has mentioned his story here, applied twice to SGU and was not accepted - but was accepted to DO school this year on his first attempt. I personally applied to a number of US MD and DO schools, as well as one foreign school (SGU). Although I received 4 DO school interviews, I chose to only interview at 2 schools and was given full acceptance to both. I was also accepted to SGU, though they gave me a conditional acceptance (based upon completion of my master's degree, though the DO schools I was accepted at didn't require me to finish my master's).

I completely agree that DO schools as a whole are more competitive to get into than Caribbean schools... BUT with the exception of SGU, which has admissions standards completely on par with DO schools. Actually, I should clarify... SGU has two matriculation dates, in January and in August. The January class has numbers slightly below that of DO schools (being easier to get into the January class) while the August class has numbers on par with the more competitive DO schools.

As far as the quality of the education, SGU is supposed to be really good. My father is a practicing physician, who told me when I was considering applying to SGU, that some of the SGU alumni physician colleagues of his are some of the best doctors he knows. You will also find many attendings on SDN who talk very highly of physicians from SGU. Also, I remember a post floating around a few months back talking about the match rate of SGU as compared to other Caribbean schools into US residencies for 2009. While the match rate of US-IMGs into MD residencies was just under 50%, the match rate of SGU grads into US MD residencies was calculated to be somewhere in the 75-85% range (I can't remember now, though I remember feeling surprised that it was so much higher than foreign schools as a whole). This was actually above the match rate of DO students into MD residencies which was right around 70%. Does this mean that SGU grads have more US residency opportunities than DO graduates? NO. Because DO students can match into BOTH MD and DO residencies, while SGU grads only have US MD residencies to get into. So staying in the US and going to a DO school is still a safer choice.

I am a happily matriculated DO student now, and am confident I made the right choice coming to a DO school. However, I think as future physicians, it is very important for us to maintain an objective point of view and weight evidence carefully instead of sticking to biased information just to make ourselves feel good. It is wrong for people to start spewing misinformation about schools like SGU without knowing anything about it. I talked to a number of SGU students who all recommended me to attend a DO school... not because SGU is any lesser quality, but simply because US residencies are becoming increasingly closed off to foreign graduates. Right now it is difficult for IMGs to get US residencies, and it is predicted to become much worse in the coming years as US MD and DO classes expand without equal increases in US residency spots. Therefore, it makes sense for students considering DO schools versus SGU (assuming they aren't attending DO schools for philosophical reasons or OMM-interest) to choose DO schools if they want US residencies. However, I would still encourage us all to have more respect for foreign graduates (especially those from SGU), as their education is certainly on par with ours and many of them become top notch physicians.

Originally Posted by JaggerPlate

1. We're not bashing him. He bumped a 6 month thread to tell us how happy he was and how awesome the Caribbean is. What do you expect??

2. Don't trust SGU stats. If they have similar stats to DO schools, why is the attrition rate so high? Why is board pass rate so low? Why is ACGME match rate lower than DO??? They are notorious for bending facts (ie releasing match lists of only matched students despite it taking certain students multiple years, holding people back from taking boards etc).

3. DO schools are respectable, domesitc medical schools. Caribbean schools should be a last ditch effort when you have no other options.

1. date of the thread is irrelevant; but fyi it was on the similar posts threads display on the bottom of everyones screens.

2. SGU doesnt have a high attrition; its attrition is less than 5% and SGUs step pass rate is over 95% (will look for the link to this some other time).

3. Never said DO schools werent respectable; and yes some of the lesser known carib schools are shady. BUT SGU is over 30 years old and has a fine reputation.

***I will not respond to jaggers posts anymore on the grounds as him being an illogical dumbbasz premed...that has no real idea about what medschool really is.

** to everyone else; you can read my posts..I never bashed DO schools once. I said they have a distinct advantage in their DO match; BUT outside of this match they are very similar to SGU in their allopathic residency placements and rotations.

The student complaining about the high attrition either: 1) went to a shady school 2) was a poor student to start with 3) is just bitter

I was accepted to CCOM (applied their bc I did my masters at RFU in north chicago) and at SGU; I chose SGU bc my family urged me and bc my GF and a few friends were going to SGU and I wished to stay with them. The story about the DO practice in my hospital was true..

Originally Posted by rkaz

I get the feeling that you are making comments without any true knowledge of the situation. Womp has many good points. Did you actually apply to SGU this year? I did, and thus might be a better person to clear up some of this misinformation.

I personally know people who were accepted to some DO schools but not to SGU. One of my classmates at AZCOM this year, who is also a member of SDN and has mentioned his story here, applied twice to SGU and was not accepted - but was accepted to DO school this year on his first attempt. I personally applied to a number of US MD and DO schools, as well as one foreign school (SGU). Although I received 4 DO school interviews, I chose to only interview at 2 schools and was given full acceptance to both. I was also accepted to SGU, though they gave me a conditional acceptance (based upon completion of my master's degree, though the DO schools I was accepted at didn't require me to finish my master's).

I completely agree that DO schools as a whole are more competitive to get into than Caribbean schools... BUT with the exception of SGU, which has admissions standards completely on par with DO schools. Actually, I should clarify... SGU has two matriculation dates, in January and in August. The January class has numbers slightly below that of DO schools (being easier to get into the January class) while the August class has numbers on par with the more competitive DO schools.

As far as the quality of the education, SGU is supposed to be really good. My father is a practicing physician, who told me when I was considering applying to SGU, that some of the SGU alumni physician colleagues of his are some of the best doctors he knows. You will also find many attendings on SDN who talk very highly of physicians from SGU. Also, I remember a post floating around a few months back talking about the match rate of SGU as compared to other Caribbean schools into US residencies for 2009. While the match rate of US-IMGs into MD residencies was just under 50%, the match rate of SGU grads into US MD residencies was calculated to be somewhere in the 75-85% range (I can't remember now, though I remember feeling surprised that it was so much higher than foreign schools as a whole). This was actually above the match rate of DO students into MD residencies which was right around 70%. Does this mean that SGU grads have more US residency opportunities than DO graduates? NO. Because DO students can match into BOTH MD and DO residencies, while SGU grads only have US MD residencies to get into. So staying in the US and going to a DO school is still a safer choice.

I am a happily matriculated DO student now, and am confident I made the right choice coming to a DO school. However, I think as future physicians, it is very important for us to maintain an objective point of view and weight evidence carefully instead of sticking to biased information just to make ourselves feel good. It is wrong for people to start spewing misinformation about schools like SGU without knowing anything about it. I talked to a number of SGU students who all recommended me to attend a DO school... not because SGU is any lesser quality, but simply because US residencies are becoming increasingly closed off to foreign graduates. Right now it is difficult for IMGs to get US residencies, and it is predicted to become much worse in the coming years as US MD and DO classes expand without equal increases in US residency spots. Therefore, it makes sense for students considering DO schools versus SGU (assuming they aren't attending DO schools for philosophical reasons or OMM-interest) to choose DO schools if they want US residencies. However, I would still encourage us all to have more respect for foreign graduates (especially those from SGU), as their education is certainly on par with ours and many of them become top notch physicians.

Thank you rkaz...this is basically what i was saying.