RVU in the news

Another nail in the coffin. I'm interested to see where this goes...

DO Anes said:

> The school is the only other medical school in the state besides the
> University of Colorado Denver School of Medicine. Unlike CU, which
> hands out M.D.s, Rocky Vista will award O.D.s, doctors of osteopathy.
>
> Osteopaths, who practice holistic medicine, are licensed by the
> state board of medical examiners and have the same privileges to
> practice at hospitals and prescribe medication.Black said the
> university likely will appoint new board members and begin looking
> for a new dean during the summer break.

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Hu??? RVU awards a Doctor of Optometry (O.D.) degree? I had no idea they were in that business. Also is anyone else tired of hearing the line that DOs practice holistic medicine? Cause I sure am.

countthestars said:

Hu??? RVU awards a Doctor of Optometry (O.D.) degree? I had no idea they were in that business. Also is anyone else tired of hearing the line that DOs practice holistic medicine? Cause I sure am.

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Everytime I hear that line I throw up a little bit in my mouth.

DrCrusat said:

The school is the only other medical school in the state besides the
> University of Colorado Denver School of Medicine. Unlike CU, which
> hands out M.D.s, Rocky Vista will award O.D.s, doctors of osteopathy.
>
> Osteopaths, who practice holistic medicine, are licensed by the
> state board of medical examiners and have the same privileges to
> practice at hospitals and prescribe medication.

Is anyone else annoyed by the fact that they're still calling D.O.'s 'doctors of osteopathy', when in fact, it should be doctors of osteopathic medicine? Or the use of the word 'Osteopaths' to describe D.O.'s? Osteopathic physicians and osteopaths are two completely different groups of people. Why don't they just call D.O.'s 'physicians' or 'doctors'? M.D.'s don't go around calling themselves 'doctors of allopathy' or 'allopaths'....

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you see how RVU embarass the DO profession?

If you took the time to read the article and the comment about the article, you would realize someone had already made the correction. The Denver Post cannot correct the problem in print until they put out the paper tomorrow.

On another note, how can you justify saying RVU is making the DO world look bad based on this article? Its a report based on interviews from both the board and Dr. Martin. The paper's (and writer's) ignorance had nothing to do with RVU. But thanks for reiterating your ignorance Handy388.

Ronnie Martin is hardly known for integrity or quality for that matter...what does that even mean anyway...that sounds like you are referring to a product you're hocking on a late night infomercial not a person.

There certainly is enough guilt to go around but it doesn't really have any reflection on the day to day workings of RVU or the "quality" of our education. I'd put our curriculum up against any other school's curriculum in the US...to be sure we definitely have one of the most rigorous schedules and our exams have been higher order questions from day one.

countthestars said:

Hu??? RVU awards a Doctor of Optometry (O.D.) degree? I had no idea they were in that business. Also is anyone else tired of hearing the line that DOs practice holistic medicine? Cause I sure am.

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I guess we should all be careful what we read and choose to believe, both on internet forums and in the news paper. Let my mom and dad both taught me, not everything you read is true.

Don't you think that if the 'Rocky' couldn't even get the degree right, maybe some of their other 'facts' are suspect too?

It appears that Martin was just a face with ties to help negotiations with the AOA and push the opening of the new school. Now that they have provisional accredited his value had surely diminished. All it took was one disagreement on the "direction" of the school and he was gone. But who knows? Probably only the people involved. Therefore someone should try and get an official statement from Ronnie Martin and the school. I am sure his information is out there as he was the President or email person for ACOFP last year. I find this reported situation curious and would love to find out what happens, but alas I know in my heart of hearts nothing will happen. ::Ends speculation::

it's disconcerting how Martin is trying to portray himself and the victim/martyr in this debacle. Nobody coerced him into taking the position of dean at our school. If he were truly a man of integrity an quality, he would have cared enough about the profession not take the position with an ominous cloud looming over his head. He would have had the enough respect for we the students to not risk putting us and our institution in this profession. Or is his so narcissistic and deluded that he thought he was the only man for the job?

His defense is a bit like a thief that took part in an inside job. I'm innocent. It was the guy on the inside that let me in the store and led me to the merchandise. He is the one to blame.

A real man of integrity would take responsibility for his role and apologize to the students and the DO community.

And if it were something as simple as taking a competency test to appease the Iowa Board why didn't he take the test, pass it with flying colors, and lay the allegations to waste?

To draw on yet another analogy it's a bit like a drifter handing an angry town mob pitchforks and nooses and then feigning disbelief at the fact he got lynched.

Lastmanstanding, you're starting to sound like a hitman.

paramediclizard said:

Don't you think that if the 'Rocky' couldn't even get the degree right, maybe some of their other 'facts' are suspect too?

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Er.... well.. not necessarily.

That's frequently the argument used by malpractice attorneys. "Doctor, if you wrote the wrong medication in the patient's medication list, how can we believe anything else you wrote?"

One error does not automatically cast doubt on everything else... especially if it's an error than can be attributed to a spelling mistake.

If anything, they need to keep a closer eye on the proofreader in the future.

I'm neither supporting or tearing down the remainder of the article, just pointing out a fallacy in the line of thinking.

Styria said:

Lastmanstanding, you're starting to sound like a hitman.

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Nope, just a concerned RVU student who has never be a fan of authoritarian types whether they be Martin or anyone else involved. In fact I have always believed the burden of proof should be placed on those in positions of power. I don't empathize with either side...if you'd read my previous posts you'd already know that. As long as my medical education remains first rate and this smear campaign against RVU ceases, They can play wack-a-mole with the administration for all I care.

DrCrusat said:

Why don't they just call D.O.'s 'physicians' or 'doctors'? M.D.'s don't go around calling themselves 'doctors of allopathy' or 'allopaths'.

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Because DO's have an identity issue - "we're completely different, but we are so the same."

brucecanbeatyou said:

Because DO's have an identity issue - "we're completely different, but we are so the same."

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Gotta love pedagogy coming from an OMS-0

Lastmanstanding said:

Gotta love pedagogy coming from an OMS-0

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I'm sorry, Lastman, you're right. I just can't wait until my first year of medical school, when I will learn, apparently, everything about everything.

By the way, pedagogy is the theory and method behind teaching, not the content of the instruction itself.

Lastmanstanding said:

Gotta love pedagogy coming from an OMS-0

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Actually, the issue of osteopathy being a 'separate but equal' or 'we're like you but not like you' branch of medicine has existed for quite some time. This article captures the issues perfectly. Doesn't matter if it's an OMS-0 ... or a PGY-2 who brings it up. It's a valid question.

----

The New England Journal of Medicine November 4, 1999;341:1426-1431, 1465-1467.

The Paradox Of Osteopathy

In the spring of 1864, Andrew Taylor Still, a rural Kansas practitioner, watched helplessly as the best medications then available failed to save his three children from spinal meningitis. Bitterly disappointed, Still set out to devise an alternative healing practice. He eventually based his new system on the idea that manipulation of the spine could improve blood flow and thus improve health by allowing the body to heal itself. His philosophy included a healthy dose of moralism; patients were forbidden to consume any liquor and, as part of the break from existing practices, were also forbidden to take any medicine. Still founded a school to teach his new system of osteopathy in Kirksville, Missouri, in 1892.

Osteopathy was not the only system of spinal manipulation to be created in the late 19th century. Chiropractic, established in 1895 by Daniel David Palmer, aimed to relieve obstruction in the nerves rather than in the blood vessels. Osteopathy and chiropractic initially shared several characteristics. Both were founded when Americans freely chose from many systems of healing. Both were homegrown American systems created at about the same time by messianic Midwesterners. Both systems were seen by many Midwesterners as preferable to the reductionist European model of laboratory-based medicine, which was established most firmly on the eastern seaboard and was fast becoming the standard.

Over the course of the 20th century, medicine as practiced by M.D.'s (sometimes called allopathy) has come to dominate U.S. health care. Chiropractic and osteopathy, initially parts of a pluralistic medical system, have taken very different paths. Chiropractors have generally remained focused on spinal manipulation for a limited set of conditions, particularly those that are often resistant to allopathic therapy, such as back pain. Osteopaths, on the other hand, have worked hard to employ the entire therapeutic armamentarium of the modern physician, and in so doing they have moved closer to allopathy. )

The move toward assimilation became explicit in California in the early 1960s, when the California Medical Association and the California Osteopathic Association merged in what has been called the osteopathic profession's darkest hour. By attending a short seminar and paying $65, a doctor of osteopathy (D.O.) could obtain an M.D. degree; 86 percent of the D.O.'s in the state (out of a total of about 2000) chose to do so. The College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons became the University of California College of Medicine, Irvine. Many osteopaths feared that the California merger was the wave of the future and that the profession would not survive. But it did, and in so doing it may have become even stronger. D.O.'s are now licensed in all 50 states to prescribe drugs, deliver babies, and perform surgery -- in short, to do anything that M.D.'s can do. Despite national recognition, osteopathy is still a regional phenomenon in ways that mirror its historical origin. The ratio of D.O.'s to the population varies by a factor of almost 3, from a low of 7.7 per 100,000 population in the West to a high of 20.4 per 100,000 in the Midwest; the number is 8.5 per 100,000 in the South and 18.3 per 100,000 in the Northeast. M.D.'s are far more evenly distributed throughout the country.

Osteopathy was originally created as a radical alternative to what was seen as a failing medical system. Its success at moving into the mainstream may have come at a cost -- the loss of identity. Most people -- including physicians -- know very little about the field (most people know more about chiropractic). Many people -- even osteopaths -- question what osteopathy has to offer that is distinctive.

Those who claim that osteopathy remains a unique system usually base their argument on two tenets. One is the holistic or patient-centered approach, with a focus on preventive care that they say characterizes osteopathy. That claim to uniqueness is hard to defend in the light of the increasing interest paid to this approach within general internal medicine and other areas of allopathic medicine. The other, potentially more robust, claim to uniqueness is the use of osteopathic manipulation as part of the overall therapeutic approach. In osteopathic manipulation, the bones, muscles, and tendons are manipulated to promote blood flow through tissues and thus enhance the body's own healing powers. The technique, based on the idea of a myofascial continuity that links every part of the body with every other part, involves the "skillful and dexterous use of the hands" to treat what was once called the osteopathic lesion but is now referred to as somatic dysfunction. Osteopathic manipulation is not well known (or practiced) by allopathic physicians, but for decades it has stood as the core therapeutic method of osteopathic medicine.

Some claim that osteopathic physicians are more parsimonious in their use of medical technology. Thus, they can provide more cost-effective medical care and reduce the need for medications, which, although effective, can have serious side effects. The specific mechanism that would account for any improvement in back pain directly related to osteopathic manipulation is unclear, but the most important studies will be those that test whether the technique works in clinical practice. Part of the success of osteopathic manipulation for patients with back pain may come from the fact that physicians who use osteopathic manipulation touch their patients.

Osteopathic manual therapy is claimed to be useful for treating a wide range of conditions, from pancreatitis to Parkinson's disease, sinusitis, and asthma. Some leading osteopaths say that manual therapy should be part of almost every visit to an osteopathic physician. A recent president of the American Osteopathic Association claimed that he "almost always turned to [osteopathic manipulation] before considering any other modality," and he asserted that 90 percent of his patients got better with osteopathic manipulation alone. Such claims underscore a raging debate within osteopathy and a disconnection between its theories and its practice. A 1995 survey of 1055 osteopathic family physicians found that they used manual therapy only occasionally; only 6.2 percent used osteopathic manipulation for more than half of their patients, and almost a third used it for fewer than 5 percent. The more recent their graduation from medical school, the less likely practitioners were to use osteopathic manipulation, a finding consistent with the view that osteopathic practice is moving closer to allopathic practice. A decreasing interest in osteopathic manipulation may also indicate that more physicians enter osteopathic medical school not as a result of a deeply held belief in the osteopathic philosophy but after failing to be admitted to allopathic medical schools. The osteopathic physicians who are more committed to osteopathic manipulation tend to be more likely than their colleagues to have a fundamentalist religious orientation.

With or without manipulation therapy, osteopathic medicine seems to be undergoing resurgence. Although the number of allopathic medical schools in the United States has remained stable since 1980, at about 125, the number of osteopathic medical schools has increased from 14 to 19. The number of graduates each year has increased at an even more disproportionate rate. The number of graduates of allopathic medical schools has increased only slightly, from 15,135 in 1980 to 15,923 in 1997, whereas the number of graduates of osteopathic medical schools has almost doubled, from 1059 to 2009, over the same period. Osteopathic medical schools have not done as well as allopathic medical schools in recruiting underrepresented minorities and women, and students entering osteopathic medical schools have somewhat lower grade-point averages and lower scores on the Medical College Admission Test. On the other hand, the ratio of applicants to those admitted is higher for osteopathic medical schools, 3.5 applicants for each person admitted, as compared with 2.4 for allopathic medical schools.

Overall, osteopathic medical schools have come to resemble allopathic medical schools in most respects; some students even share classes. Graduates of osteopathic medical schools more often than not go on to residency training in allopathic programs. An evaluation of performance on the certifying examination of the American Board of Internal Medicine in the 1980s noted that although physicians from osteopathic medical schools did not do as well as those from allopathic programs, overall they "did well" and could be an "untapped reservoir of talented physicians" for internal medicine.

Although they constitute only about 5 percent of U.S. physicians, osteopaths may be disproportionately important for the health care system by virtue of their distribution in terms of specialty and location: 60 percent of graduates of osteopathic medical schools select generalist fields. Because osteopathic education is more community-based than allopathic education, and because osteopathic schools are smaller, osteopathic education may be able to adapt more quickly to new approaches to health care delivery. Many more osteopaths than allopaths (18.1 percent vs. 11.5 percent) select rural areas in which to practice. One osteopathic medical school found that 20 percent of its graduates were practicing in underserved communities.

At the end of the century, osteopathy continues its uneasy dance with allopathy, but only one partner is really paying attention. The resurgence in the numbers of osteopaths should not mask the precarious position of osteopathy. At its birth, osteopathy was a radical concept, rejecting much of what allopathic medicine claimed was new and useful. Today, osteopathic medicine has moved close to the mainstream -- close enough that in general it is no longer considered alternative medicine. The long-term survival of osteopathic medicine will depend on its ability to define itself as distinct from and yet still equivalent to allopathic medicine. That argument may best be articulated not in theoretical terms, but by demonstrating treatment outcomes. The paradox is this: if osteopathy has become the functional equivalent of allopathy, what is the justification for its continued existence? And if there is value in therapy that is uniquely osteopathic -- that is, based on osteopathic manipulation or other techniques -- why should its use be limited to osteopaths?

Joel D. Howell, M.D., Ph.D. University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109-0604

brucecanbeatyou said:

I'm sorry, Lastman, you're right. I just can't wait until my first year of medical school, when I will learn, apparently, everything about everything.

By the way, pedagogy is the theory and method behind teaching, not the content of the instruction itself.

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okay now scan down and read the second and third connotations....

And I doubt you've had the pleasure of sitting through a half semester's worth of lectures on Osteopathic History or sat and discussed OMM ad nausem with your OPP professors yet...so you'll have to forgive me if I don't consider you an authority on the subject.

DO Anes said:

Osteopathic medical school ousts dean, half of its board
>
> By Jennifer Brown
> The Denver Post
> Posted: 05/27/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT
> An osteopathic medical school in Parker has ousted its dean and made
> over its board after a dust-up caused either by legal troubles in
> the dean's past or a conflict in management style, depending on who
> is telling the story.
>
> Rocky Vista University, where about 150 medical students are
> finishing their first year, fired Dr. Ronnie B. Martin because of
> "ethical issues" that came to light a few months ago, interim
> president Robert Black said Tuesday. The school learned late last
> year that Martin's medical license had been suspended in Iowa, Black
> said.
>
> "We are concerned about what people think of us," he said. "Our
> ethics are important to us."
>
> The Iowa Board of Medicine suspended Martin's medical license in
> September after he had refused to submit to a clinical competency
> evaluation to judge his medical skills years earlier.
>
> The board also issued a public reprimand and ordered Martin to pay a
> $5,000 fine.
>
> But Martin said he was upfront about the trouble in Iowa — which he
> is still fighting in court — when he was hired in 2006 and that the
> school's leaders were using it as a "smokescreen."
>
> Martin called it "very distressing" that the university's president
> and owner were trying to make him look like a "bad person," when in
> fact they had disagreed about the direction of the school.
>
> "I'm not going to go to that level," he said.
>
> Black, though, said the Iowa ethical issues "didn't reflect properly
> on this school, on this faculty, on these kids."
>
> Four of the private medical school's nine board members also were
> asked to leave after months spent deciding how to handle the dean's
> job status.
>
> Former board chairman Ian Levenson, a family practice doctor in
> Greenwood Village, said he couldn't talk about why he left the board
> until the matter is resolved.
>
> The school is the only other medical school in the state besides the
> University of Colorado Denver School of Medicine. Unlike CU, which
> hands out M.D.s, Rocky Vista will award O.D.s, doctors of osteopathy.
>
> Osteopaths, who practice holistic medicine, are licensed by the
> state board of medical examiners and have the same privileges to
> practice at hospitals and prescribe medication.Black said the
> university likely will appoint new board members and begin looking
> for a new dean during the summer break.


Regardless of the details of the case, clearly there are issues with this institution. Dr. Martin has a reputation for quality and integrity and deserves due process. Restructuring of the Board of Trustees removes an essential check and balance in the quality vs. profit equation that should be especially worrisome in a for-profit school. It appears that the board, like the dean and COCA assurances of scrutiny are just smokescreens for a clever money-making scheme. If they could turn a greater profit by running an MD or chiropractic school, they would do so (except that those accrediting bodies prohibit for-profit schools).
RVU has illustrated the flaws in our educational system to the outside world and has called the credibility of this entire profession in to question. The response of the AOA and COCA to a school being run as a pure financial instrument may very well determine whether this profession survives.
George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP, FACOP
AOA Health Policy Fellow, 2006-2007

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Seriously, no matter what RVU does you hate it. If they had elected to keep Ronnie Martin, you'd be screaming and pointing at them like they were keeping a felon on staff. I decided not to go to RVU for my own reasons, so I'm not just defending "my" school, but seriously, even if you disagree with the idea of a for-profit school, not everything they touch or do is conspiracy to rob students and destroy the profession.

Lastmanstanding said:

And I doubt you've had the pleasure of sitting through a half semester's worth of lectures on Osteopathic History or sat and discussed OMM ad nausem with your OPP professors yet...so you'll have to forgive me if I don't consider you an authority on the subject.

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I really am looking forward to that day of nirvana when all will be clear after my half semester of Osteopathic History. In the mean time, peace out, Lastman, I feel like I'm taking cheap shots in any sort of discussion with you. You're already pretty good at making yourself look ridiculous.

Lastmanstanding said:

And I doubt you've had the pleasure of sitting through a half semester's worth of lectures on Osteopathic History or sat and discussed OMM ad nausem with your OPP professors yet...so you'll have to forgive me if I don't consider you an authority on the subject.

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Well... umm.. I have to agree with brucecanbeatyou. And although he hasn't had as much OPP lecturing as you have, I've had more than both of you combined.

However, the amount of lecture one has had on the subject in medical school is somewhat irrelevant. We aren't talking about the practice of OMT, we're talking about the historicolegal aspects of osteopathic medicine and it's perception both internally and externally. And that information can be learned just as well through self-education. So pre-med people and non-medical people can present sound reasoned arguments with as much authority as an osteopathic medical student. It would be different though if we were arguing the merits and practice of, oh say, HVLA.

DOs do have an identity issue. We continually argue that we are separate but equal. However the things we use to set ourselves apart are either no longer valid (DOs are holistic, MDs are symptom focused), or not practiced by the vast majority of degree holders (OMT). So it creates public confusion and then reinforces the necessity of always saying "doctor of osteopathic medicine" or "osteopathic physician" or whatever. And that's a problem... a problem of our own making.

We can't keep arguing that MDs don't treat the whole patient, because anyone who has spent any time in hospitals nowadays will tell you that's patently untrue. Are there MDs that are symptom focused? Sure. But that's not the norm and certainly not a profession defining characteristic. And we can't keep arguing that we are special and different because we do OMT, because very few of us do with any regularity to really define their practice by it.

brucecanbeatyou said:

I really am looking forward to that day of nirvana when all will be clear after my half semester of Osteopathic History. In the mean time, peace out, Lastman, I feel like I'm taking cheap shots in any sort of discussion with you. You're already pretty good at making yourself look ridiculous.

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'O.D.,' 'doctors of osteopathy,' 'osteopath,' and 'holistic medicine,' all in the same article. Honestly, what a ****ing idiot. Journalism is a joke now a days. What would it have taken to get ANY of that correct?? Three minutes on wikipedia??

Posted in AOA daily report:

RVUCOM Students Give Back to Community

Speaking of outreach, osteopathic medical students at the Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine (RVUCOM) demonstrated their greatness and servitude through many mission and medical outreach projects this past year. To promote these activities and inspire their fellow young Americans to serve, RVUCOM students have posted photos of their service projects on Serve.gov, a Web site created by the Obama Administration to help Americans find ways to serve in their communities. To see the photos and learn more about these student initiatives, visit the Serve.gov gallery and search for "RVUCOM." Congratulations RVUCOM!

http://myproject.serve.gov/public/gallery/Default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1&

RVU RULZ said:

Posted in AOA daily report:

RVUCOM Students Give Back to Community

Speaking of outreach, osteopathic medical students at the Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine (RVUCOM) demonstrated their greatness and servitude through many mission and medical outreach projects this past year. To promote these activities and inspire their fellow young Americans to serve, RVUCOM students have posted photos of their service projects on Serve.gov, a Web site created by the Obama Administration to help Americans find ways to serve in their communities. To see the photos and learn more about these student initiatives, visit the Serve.gov gallery and search for “RVUCOM.” Congratulations RVUCOM!

http://myproject.serve.gov/public/gallery/Default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1&

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iloveDrStill said:

I looked over many of the pictures from the website, both from RVU and other organizations. It looks like participants submit the photo description for each picture, correct?

Then can you explain this comment please?

IS YOUR DOCTOR A D.O.?

Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine
RVUCOM medical student promoting Osteopathy while volunteering at the 9News Healthfair in Parker, CO.

I don't think you can blame the media this time.

From the looks of this 'news bulletin' I guess the AOA will not intervene. Instead RVU will circle the drain for goodness knows how long and continue to embarrass the osteopathic community, all thanks to the AOA's brilliant decision making. The docs I work with already make jokes about what they call St. Vista of the Rockies.

As others have said, I have nothing against the students at RVU. I just can't wait for this silly experiment to end.

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Sorry but I'm missing where she is promoting "osteopathy"? Personally from looking at the photo I don't see anything wrong with what she is doing. Just from her photo I actually applaud her effort for what seems to be increasing awareness. I'll eat my words if her banner says "osteopathy" but the only "osteo_____" word in the picture is Osteopathic in RVU's emblem....

iloveDrStill said:

I looked over many of the pictures from the website, both from RVU and other organizations. It looks like participants submit the photo description for each picture, correct?

Then can you explain this comment please?

IS YOUR DOCTOR A D.O.?

Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine
RVUCOM medical student promoting Osteopathy while volunteering at the 9News Healthfair in Parker, CO.

I don't think you can blame the media this time.

From the looks of this 'news bulletin' I guess the AOA will not intervene. Instead RVU will circle the drain for goodness knows how long and continue to embarrass the osteopathic community, all thanks to the AOA's brilliant decision making. The docs I work with already make jokes about what they call St. Vista of the Rockies.

As others have said, I have nothing against the students at RVU. I just can't wait for this silly experiment to end.

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I'm thinking sarcasm, cause your post is so ridiculous, but on the other hand you seem so serious - what's up?

iloveDrStill said:

I looked over many of the pictures from the website, both from RVU and other organizations. It looks like participants submit the photo description for each picture, correct?

Then can you explain this comment please?

IS YOUR DOCTOR A D.O.?

Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine
RVUCOM medical student promoting Osteopathy while volunteering at the 9News Healthfair in Parker, CO.

I don't think you can blame the media this time.

From the looks of this 'news bulletin' I guess the AOA will not intervene. Instead RVU will circle the drain for goodness knows how long and continue to embarrass the osteopathic community, all thanks to the AOA's brilliant decision making. The docs I work with already make jokes about what they call St. Vista of the Rockies.

As others have said, I have nothing against the students at RVU. I just can't wait for this silly experiment to end.

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I don't get it??

to Ilovedrstill, D.O. and osteopathy are now dirty words.

I thought all of you future DOs didn't care what people thought about your degree because you're only interested in practicing good medicine.

Do you know how silly it sounds to want to be called "doctors of osteopathic medicine" yet cry when someone calls you "osteopaths?"

hermit said:

I thought all of you future DOs didn't care what people thought about your degree because you're only interested in practicing good medicine.

Do you know how silly it sounds to want to be called "doctors of osteopathic medicine" yet cry when someone calls you "osteopaths?"

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Sticks and stones may break our bones, but allowing people to go around uninformed and perpetuating a cycle of ignorance is silly. Just stop them from making a fool of themselves and move on.

snurpy said:

Sticks and stones may break our bones, but allowing people to go around uninformed and perpetuating a cycle of ignorance is silly. Just stop them from making a fool of themselves and move on.

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I think his point was that it seems disingenuous when the group itself used to call themselves osteopaths and then all of a sudden felt the connotations were wrong and stopped using it. To get angry when people use a name that was accepted by the group is kinda dumb IMHO.

It's like if internists suddenly stopped accepting the word "internists" and would only accept "Physicians of internal medicine" as accurate and correct. Wouldn't it seem dumb if an internist got mad at others who still used the term internist?

hermit said:

I thought all of you future DOs didn't care what people thought about your degree because you're only interested in practicing good medicine.

Do you know how silly it sounds to want to be called "doctors of osteopathic medicine" yet cry when someone calls you "osteopaths?"

Click to expand...

"I didn't spend 4 yrs in Evil Medical School just to be called osteopath"

Instatewaiter said:

I think his point was that it seems disingenuous when the group itself used to call themselves osteopaths and then all of a sudden felt the connotations were wrong and stopped using it. To get angry when people use a name that was accepted by the group is kinda dumb IMHO.

It's like if internists suddenly stopped accepting the word "internists" and would only accept "Physicians of internal medicine" as accurate and correct. Wouldn't it seem dumb if an internist got mad at others who still used the term internist?

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The confusion stems from the 'old guard' osteopaths, who want to mantain the distinction, with the new generation of osteopathic med students and beyond who see very little difference. The same holds for our views on combined matches, the ability for allopathic med students to match osteopathic residencies, etc. The positions that are infuriating to many are the ones being held onto and passed down from the 'old guard' in charge.

hermit said:

I thought all of you future DOs didn't care what people thought about your degree because you're only interested in practicing good medicine.

Do you know how silly it sounds to want to be called "doctors of osteopathic medicine" yet cry when someone calls you "osteopaths?"

Click to expand...

No one cares what you say ever.

Instatewaiter said:

I think his point was that it seems disingenuous when the group itself used to call themselves osteopaths and then all of a sudden felt the connotations were wrong and stopped using it. To get angry when people use a name that was accepted by the group is kinda dumb IMHO.

It's like if internists suddenly stopped accepting the word "internists" and would only accept "Physicians of internal medicine" as accurate and correct. Wouldn't it seem dumb if an internist got mad at others who still used the term internist?

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Reasons why it matters (not for vanity) in the UK an 'osteopath' is a legit osteopath. They don't go to medical school, they go to osteopathy school and only do manipulation (cranial included). Osteopath in no way represents what a DO does in the US anymore than Allopath represents what an MD does. Also, stated the degree as 'OD' in the article instead of DO, especially when OD = doctor of optometry, is just bad. If you want to call it 'doctor of osteopathy' ... whatever, it's wrong, but whatever. If you can't get the two freaking letters in the degree right ... I'm going to tell you that you suck as a journalist, meaning that other stuff you said -osteopath, osteopathy - is wrong.

I just don't see how a DO who, for example, took USMLE, completed an ACGME residency, and practices along MDs in a non-manipulative field everyday is an osteopath?? Nor do I think it's wrong to correct someone who a. has blatantly done 0 research on the subject and b. is spreading false information.

JaggerPlate said:

Reasons why it matters (not for vanity) in the UK an 'osteopath' is a legit osteopath. They don't go to medical school, they go to osteopathy school and only do manipulation (cranial included). Osteopath in no way represents what a DO does in the US anymore than Allopath represents what an MD does. Also, stated the degree as 'OD' in the article instead of DO, especially when OD = doctor of optometry, is just bad. If you want to call it 'doctor of osteopathy' ... whatever, it's wrong, but whatever. If you can't get the two freaking letters in the degree right ... I'm going to tell you that you suck as a journalist, meaning that other stuff you said -osteopath, osteopathy - is wrong.

I just don't see how a DO who, for example, took USMLE, completed an ACGME residency, and practices along MDs in a non-manipulative field everyday is an osteopath?? Nor do I think it's wrong to correct someone who a. has blatantly done 0 research on the subject and b. is spreading false information.

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so you are advocating one degree for both DO and MD? just drop the OD thing. and Doctor of Osteopathy is fine.

JaggerPlate said:

No one cares what you say ever.

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HarMegido said:

so you are advocating one degree for both DO and MD? just drop the OD thing. and Doctor of Osteopathy is fine.

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Too incoherent to respond ... sorry.

JaggerPlate said:

Reasons why it matters (not for vanity) in the UK an 'osteopath' is a legit osteopath. They don't go to medical school, they go to osteopathy school and only do manipulation (cranial included). Osteopath in no way represents what a DO does in the US anymore than Allopath represents what an MD does. Also, stated the degree as 'OD' in the article instead of DO, especially when OD = doctor of optometry, is just bad. If you want to call it 'doctor of osteopathy' ... whatever, it's wrong, but whatever. If you can't get the two freaking letters in the degree right ... I'm going to tell you that you suck as a journalist, meaning that other stuff you said -osteopath, osteopathy - is wrong.

I just don't see how a DO who, for example, took USMLE, completed an ACGME residency, and practices along MDs in a non-manipulative field everyday is an osteopath?? Nor do I think it's wrong to correct someone who a. has blatantly done 0 research on the subject and b. is spreading false information.

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umm, NO? We live in the US. I am not even sure if UK trained Osteopathes are allowed to be health care provider here. In the states, if you say Ostepathes or even Doctor of Ostepathy, people (if they know what you are talking about) know you are talking about DOs.

If a DO took a USMLE and completed an ACGME residency, he's an Ostepath, or short for osteopathy physician, or a DO, because he went to a DO school. Just like how I went to school for molecular biology in Bachelor of Art. I am not going to suddenly hate on people who call me a BA and insist them to refer to me as Bachelor of Art Scientist.

Handy388 said:

umm, NO? We live in the US. I am not even sure if Osteopathes are allowed to be health care provider here. In the states, if you say Ostepathes or even Doctor of Ostepathy, people (if they know what you are talking about) know you are talking about DOs.

If a DO took a USMLE and completed an ACGME residency, he's an Ostepath, or short for osteopathy physician, or a DO, because he went to a DO school. Just like how I went to school for molecular biology in Bachelor of Art. I am not going to suddenly hate on people who call me a BA and insist them to refer to me as Bachelor of Art Scientist.

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To the end DOs make as much money as MDs do as long as DOs are made from USA

Handy388 said:

umm, NO? We live in the US. I am not even sure if Osteopathes are allowed to be health care provider here. In the states, if you say Ostepathes or even Doctor of Ostepathy, people (if they know what you are talking about) know you are talking about DOs.

If a DO took a USMLE and completed an ACGME residency, he's an Ostepath, or short for osteopathy physician, or a DO, because he went to a DO school. Just like how I went to school for molecular biology in Bachelor of Art. I am not going to suddenly hate on people who call me a BA and insist them to refer to me as Bachelor of Art Scientist.

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Literally, EVERYTHING you said was wrong. I can't even go into it. All I can say is that you really have no reason to be on these forums and trolling/flaming is against TOS.

JaggerPlate said:

Literally, EVERYTHING you said was wrong. I can't even go into it. All I can say is that you really have no reason to be on these forums and trolling/flaming is against TOS.

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Please elaborate how everything I said was wrong and lay off the cap, so I can educate myself and my future colleague that the term "Osteopath" is a No No. I didn't know someone who is not even a osteopathic physician to be so sensitive about this issue.

Also I would like to know how exactly my statement was a troll statement.

I am just glad the general public doesn't know we bitch like an bunch of little girls