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well looks like it is official. the class is to begin this fall.
the bubble has burst.
the bubble has burst.
My school has a satellite pharmacy school in Vermont. And it's opening this Fall.
Which brings the grand total of pharmacy schools in Vermont to 1.
It's not so much the number of schools that are opening that's causing trouble so much as it is where the schools are opening. A school in Maine isn't going to cause any saturation (and anyone who tries to argue otherwise wins the Kool-Aid Award), but a school in California will.
For those of you who don't want to believe that, here's a thought. There are currently 110 pharmacy schools in the country, give or take. That's 110 schools for 50 states and the DC area. So let's say they were split evenly. Each state gets 2, accounting for 102 of the schools, and the eight most populated states get a third. Do you really think we'd be looking at saturation if that were the case?
Use your head. You'll still be able to find a job, you're just actually going to have to prove that you deserve the job (or...GASP...you may have to actually swallow your pride and work that wretched retail), because the economy is hitting everyone hard.
This is all fine and dandy, but they're not evenly distributed (and there's over 120 now). New York State has 6 schools, with plans to open a 7th (three in Western NY, which clearly doesn't need another to open). California is in the same boat. You also have to take into account that people will settle away from where they go to school, especially if that is a remote location (i.e. northern Maine).
And telling people that they have to go to retail is a terrible thing for some. I'd be fine working retail, but there are many more who aren't. It's similar to telling a person who goes to med school to become a surgeon that he has to settle for psychiatry. Sure, they're both physicians, but it's a completely different ballgame.
Which brings the grand total of pharmacy schools in Vermont to 1.
It's not so much the number of schools that are opening that's causing trouble so much as it is where the schools are opening. A school in Maine isn't going to cause any saturation (and anyone who tries to argue otherwise wins the Kool-Aid Award), but a school in California will.
For those of you who don't want to believe that, here's a thought. There are currently 110 pharmacy schools in the country, give or take. That's 110 schools for 50 states and the DC area. So let's say they were split evenly. Each state gets 2, accounting for 102 of the schools, and the eight most populated states get a third. Do you really think we'd be looking at saturation if that were the case?
Use your head. You'll still be able to find a job, you're just actually going to have to prove that you deserve the job (or...GASP...you may have to actually swallow your pride and work that wretched retail), because the economy is hitting everyone hard.
For those of you who don't want to believe that, here's a thought. There are currently 110 pharmacy schools in the country, give or take. That's 110 schools for 50 states and the DC area. So let's say they were split evenly. Each state gets 2, accounting for 102 of the schools, and the eight most populated states get a third. Do you really think we'd be looking at saturation if that were the case?
The schools aren't evenly distributed, but the point was to show just how easily swayed some of the surplus doomsayers are through simple appropriation. Once one guy can't find the specific job he wants in an area, suddenly there are no jobs available there (as an example that is pertient to both of us and has come up before...SJF hasn't graduated anyone, and DYC hasn't opened yet...did UB really saturate half of an entire state by themselves? Come on, now). Many of the states that have only two schools have openly been talked about on SDN as having openings. Quite frankly, the reasons you gave only lend credence to the idea that there will be jobs available for graduates, even if they're mildly flexible. I opted to go straight into SJF instead of completing my BA and then going to UB, and I feel that in the long run, I'll still be fine. In this whole debate, the two proposed scenarios seem to be 1.)you already have earned a degree from an established school and are earning 200K working at a plush hospital in the ritzy section of a big city, or 2.)you're a new graduate and you're going to have to earn 40K working at an oft-robbed pharmacy in the middle of the projects across the street from the methadone clininc. Any middle ground, here, people?
And yes, there are people on this forum who despise retail and don't want to work it. Which makes me question how they are so sure that there are no jobs to be found when there's an entire branch of the profession that they're avoiding like the plague. Moreover, I disagree with the analogy. Psychiatry and surgery are two entirely different fields, whereas clinical pharmacy and retail pharmacy are different aspects of one field.
However, before anyone tries to use the slippery slope theory, I do think that the current expansion of pharmacy schools should be curtailed, but I also think it will come within the next few years.
Pharmacists made around $40K starting out back in 1990, which is worth around $65K today. It was a good salary, but not that great considering it was a 5 year degree. THen the retail boom happened and pharmacies were making so much money they could afford to raise salaries to open up all the new pharmacies. Now things are starting to cool off. New pharmacy schools will not stop opening until people think it is not a valuable investment of their time/money. The ACPE has already said they can not and have no interest in stopping pharmacy schools from opening. The PharmD will stop being a hot degree when starting salaries fall to around $65-70K, then people will invest their time elsewhere and schools will stop opening. It is the way a free market capitalist system works.
Pharmacists made around $40K starting out back in 1990, which is worth around $65K today. It was a good salary, but not that great considering it was a 5 year degree. THen the retail boom happened and pharmacies were making so much money they could afford to raise salaries to open up all the new pharmacies. Now things are starting to cool off. New pharmacy schools will not stop opening until people think it is not a valuable investment of their time/money. The ACPE has already said they can not and have no interest in stopping pharmacy schools from opening. The PharmD will stop being a hot degree when starting salaries fall to around $65-70K, then people will invest their time elsewhere and schools will stop opening. It is the way a free market capitalist system works.
The only difference is that when they were making 40k back then, they had an average student debt load of 10k while now, its not uncommon for students to come out with 150k in debt.
Except just 10 years ago...there were about 70 pharmacy schools in all.
Here is one issue you're not addressing. The massive shortage of pharmacists were created by 2 reasons.. aging boomers RX script counts and expansion of Wags and CVS. Well, Wags and CVS are about done expanding and dispensing technology has improved to accomodate increasing script counts.
Now, we're stuck with 120 RX schools. If you don't think this alarming for new grads, then you must know something I don't.
This is the stupidest analysis of pharmacy school per capita I have ever seen.
Why? I get that it's unrealistic, but there are 16 states that have 2 pharmacy schools (Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Washington, West Virginia), and of those 16, I can only recall three or four being talked about as having saturation in them. Several of these states are in the midwest, for that matter, a place that many people on this forum keep pegging as the place where jobs will still be available.
Why?? Because, # of school per state is irrelevant as it's more accurate to evaluate the number of graduating pharmacist per capita or per volume of pharmacy workload in the state. Also, pharmacy class size varies greatly from school to school Therefore your analysis is inaccurate, illogical, and makes no sense.
BTW, Arkansas now has 3 pharmacy schools not 2.
Again, it's an issue of how flexible the graduates are. Lots of people in this forum talk about how the only jobs left will be in "undesirable" areas. However, a lot of people on this forum also thumb their nose at retail and thumb their nose at rural areas. If they consider those to be undesirable, that's fine, that's a matter of personal choice. However, I live in a rural town with 5 retail pharmacies and a hospital, both of which have huge pharmacist turnover (I've looked into this, there are a lot of pharmacists who work in my town as a first stop out of college and shortly thereafter leave for other jobs). It also happened at the Target pharmacy where I did tech work while taking prerequisites. There's no conceivable way that I'm the exception to the rule, and that this is only happening in my town. And if it's not, and I am the exception to the rule...well, then I guess you're right, and all the other graduates should be worried.
It shouldn't be alarming because the situation is not that no jobs will be available. It's still a fairly financially sound bet, just do your homework, network, and keep your options open.
That and...who says Pharmies stay in their own state post-grad?
Your view is very myopic where you can only see 2 feet in front of you. When there are more graduating pharmacists than available positions, which is what we're predicting even though that may not be the case in your piss poor rural town, the quality of working environment for pharmacist will suffer greatly due to increase in confidence of employers to demand more from pharmacists. You as an individual pharmacist may have a job but don't ever believe that you're never going to be replaceable by younger and hungrier pharmacists who's willing to work for less.
Yes. Minimal saturation. Roughly a year ago, the pharmacy DM talked about a $50K sign-on bonus (for 3 years) for working out in the country about an hour north of my hometown.Louisiana
BTW, Arkansas now has 3 pharmacy schools not 2.
i dont think u should worry about a school in maine. lemme take a wild guess and say that most people who will attend that school are from maine and will stay in maine.
However, a lot of people on this forum also thumb their nose at retail...
Alrighty. Could you convince more people that all rural areas are dirt poor and terrible places to live? It'll make my life easier come graduation.
My point is view is not myopic. A myopic point of view would be to assume that there is still a massive shortage everywhere and that I could find myself a nice 50K signing bonus in New York City. I have actually looked around and done research on the job market in my local area. I don't care if Texas, or Florida, or So-Cal, or even the eastern portion of my home state is saturated, that doesn't affect me because I'm not looking to work there. To tell me that I'm screwed because those areas have too many pharmacists is far more myopic than anything I have said.
And yes, I'm aware that there may be a pharmacist one day who tries to undercut my salary to take my job. It's not very likely, since, again, my hometown is generally just a stop off for new graduates until they get job offers elsewhere, but it's certainly a possibility. Again, that's where flexibility comes in. If moving ends up landing me a nicer job somewhere, then so be it. I find contentment in my surroundings very easily. I live cheap and I'm not a picky guy. You may balk at the idea of living in Fargo, or Milwaukee, or Cleveland, but I could be very happy with my life and job situation were I to move somewhere like the aforementioned cities.
Getting back to the school situation, since that was what sparked this anyway. Yes, the rate at which schools are opening is spiraling out of control, and it needs to be kept in check (or stopped), but where these schools are opening is largely exacerbating the problem. Two schools in Maine aren't going to hurt that much, since a good percentage of the class will likely stay in New England. They'd be stupid not to, given the current job market. Sure, some will move to more saturated areas, but far less Husson grads will be competing for jobs in California than will California NorthState grads.
There are pharmacy schools in Little Rock, AR (UAMS) and Searcy, AR (Harding University). Where is the other one in AR?
i was talking to some physicians about where pharmacy is going. they were surprised how the profession doesnt protect itself like medicine does. medicine really dictates how their profession goes.
unfortunately the only way to control this nightmare is with required residencies it seems now. i disagree with pharmacy residencies ever being required.
As I stated in another post on this thread, pharmacy will never truly be a profession until it begins protecting itself and representing the rights of its member pharmacists. The AMA lobbies for physicians and we have no one? Ridiculous, if you ask me. But it seems everytime I point out a reality such as this one in other posts, no one even bothers addressing the veracity of at least some of my points. Oh well.
I wonder if we should stop focusing on accreditation boards (which is always a dead end due to anti-trust issues) and start petitioning APHA and other pharmacy lobbies. I doubt APHA will do much since they are in pharmacy lala land and most of the stuff they say contradicts each other.
I wonder if we should stop focusing on accreditation boards (which is always a dead end due to anti-trust issues) and start petitioning APHA and other pharmacy lobbies. I doubt APHA will do much since they are in pharmacy lala land and most of the stuff they say contradicts each other.
Can't we model our lobby effort the same way that the AMA do to stop new schools from opening? I don't know much about how pharmacists are lobbying right now since I'm just starting pharm school in the fall but I'm assuming its minimal if any at all.
I've been reading alot of these posts lately and been asking alot of pharmacists and pharmacy students, what do you think is the worst-case scenario in the upcoming years? I just want to prepare myself for the worst
UAMS Northwest should be enrolling students this fall unless the plans were delayed. The goal was to increase the enrollment by 62%.
Would that be up in Fayetteville? (edit: nvm, I googled it.)
I wonder if I could hit up a residency there in a couple years. My bro's in Springdale, home of sell-out Mustain.
I wonder how many people will stay in Maine - is this a private school? The only example I can think of is Shenandoah - a private, rural school where almost no one is from Norther Virginia or stays in the area.