Would I do it over again...

[HappyChair2000]

I posted this a while back in the general residency issues forum, but just had a particularly crappy day at work so thought I might repost it here for the benefit of those who still have other real options. Think real hard before going into medicine please:

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in there being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

[HappyChair2000]

<Quote>Good post by happychair,
although I think he/she kind of hung the black crepe a little more than I would do. I actually am still happy overall that I did medicine (or at least that's what I tell myself...LOL!). The medical education/student loan debt issue is not minor though, and seems to be getting worse for the current grads.

Happychair, sorry about your relationship. Yeah, 3rd year really sucks a--. So does internship, actually. But you're probably an XY, so the ladies will probably be throwing themselves at you pretty soon (as soon as you actually have time to go find them), since beig one of those "rich doctors" makes you a good catch.

It sounds like happychair might be smack in the middle of a residency like IM (lots of paperwork, some ungrateful patients and not great hours). Things do get better (:

</QUOTE>

Nothing personal dragonfly as I'm sure you're a very nice person and just trying to help (much more than can be said of most people on online message boards), but I'm really getting tired of people telling me it will get better. In first year of med school, they said it would get better. In third year, it was supposed to be better than second. Internship was meant to be bad, but at least better in some ways then med school, and residency better than internship. It's just gotten worse. And the attendings I work with seem as miserable as residents. You know, actually that's a little unfair. I think about 50% of people really hate their jobs. About 40% tolerate it, and 10% are actually happy with their work. I'm just in the 50.

I think the issue with medicine is that by the time you actually get to see what it is like in the third year of med school (the bureaucracy, the futile profit-centric care, the toxic work environment), you're trapped into the field for at least another 7-8 years (2 more years of med school, 3 years minimum of residency, and 2-3 years to pay back loans). I can think of no other area of human endeavor where this is the case. Hate finance? Quit. Hate law? Spend a two years paying off loans and do something else. Hate grad school? Drop out with a masters and do something else. Hell, if you go to a military academy, you only have a 4 year commitment.

By the time you're done with medical training, you're in your early 30s and qualified for only 1 job, too old really for entry level jobs in most other desirable fields. The most you can really hope for its seems is to transition into a branch of health care that involves less patient care (medical informatics, path, etc.). However, I have a friend doing OB/gyn who quit after paying back loans and started a carpentry business. Knew of a mud/phud that quit before residency and started working at a Mexican restaurant. Maybe all hope of jumping ship is not lost after all.

[Elijah05]

I hear things like this all day from the residents I work with too...sometimes I really do wonder but nonetheless I hope people dont come here and just flame someone who is giving you a valuable opinion. That being said im curious happy chair what do you think about the reforms that seem pending on medicine and how that will affect you?

[SunDevilDoc]

Jeeze you must have had a super duper bad day. What about pursuing research or something? Is the whole misery thing different for primary care? Or for other specialties like ophthalmology or dermatology or something like that?
Those were some super serial posts though. You should watch the Office or something to cheer up

[muhali3]

Residency is the most grueling, piss-off causing part of becoming a doctor. Pessimism like yours at this point is not surprising. But really, why have you come this far if you hated it since MS1?

Btw, OB/GYNs tend to be the most dissatisfied among doctors from all specialties, so what your friend did was not too shocking.

[jvesco22]

you sound like a wreck. It sucks that your medical career didn't go as you thought it would. As for 50% hating their job, 40% tolerating it, and 10% loving it, that can be applied to ANY job. Hopefully your situation turns around for the better.

edit:

You said "but just had a particularly crappy day at work so thought I might repost it here", that's really pathetic man...seriously. You have a ****ty day so you post this to supposedly "benefit" someone?

And you wonder why people will attack your post...Find a girlfriend or a hobby to vent your frustrations, rather than coming here and reposting your so-called warning...

[phospho]

Originally Posted by HappyChair2000

I think about 50% of people really hate their jobs. About 40% tolerate it, and 10% are actually happy with their work. I'm just in the 50.

I'm assuming you never had a real full time job before medical school. I can tell you from personal experience (after working in multiple corporations over the years) that if 50% of docs hate their jobs, then you've got yourself a winner.

Go work in the corporate world for a few months, and I highly doubt you'll find more than 5% of employees who are "happy" with their jobs (I put "happy" in paranthesis because there's no such thing as happy from what I've experienced).

Unfortunately, many people go into medicine without prior world/outside experience - and therefore have nothing to compare it to. I truly believe that if 40% are able to tolerate it, and 10% are happy, then that's a good thing.

On the other hand, I'm just a premed, and I can't tell you that I know what you're going through. Honestly, I can't imagine. You've gotta keep your head up though

[WellWornLad]

There is truth in the idea that medicine is a one-way street for most people. If you don't have scholarships or rich parents, you're going for a ride. I think OP overstates the discontent angle, though.

In any case, I think there's something about the Ivy League and medicine that don't mix. I've got nothing against them, but they definitely seem more miserable than most in medical school. I guess having people practically throwing ridiculously elite jobs at you engenders a morose sense of what could have been. I, for one, enjoy medical school. Beats 90% of the jobs I've had.

[URHere]

Originally Posted by WellWornLad

I, for one, enjoy medical school. Beats 90% of the jobs I've had.

I agree with this. Yes, I'm still on the upswing of my medical education, but for me, first year really wasn't bad at all. I liked being in clinic more than I expected, I found the material interesting, and during first year, I never for even a second felt like I was giving up important things in my life.

And I wasn't 100% set on a medical career. Hell, I very nearly went into theatre, and I would have been happy doing so.

I really don't think people can predict whether or not they are going to enjoy medicine. Some people may dream of being doctors for years, only to find that it's not for them. Others may stumble into the medical field on a whim, and find that they love it. If you think you might love it, go for it. This may be horribly optimistic, but - if you end up hating it, figure out what to do from there. Yes, you will be in debt, but that doesn't mean that you can't look for something else that makes you happy. It is daunting, but not impossible.

[neuro1986]

Originally Posted by SunDevilDoc

Jeeze you must have had a super duper bad day. What about pursuing research or something? Is the whole misery thing different for primary care? Or for other specialties like ophthalmology or dermatology or something like that?
Those were some super serial posts though. You should watch the Office or something to cheer up

should NOT be reduced to him just having a 'super duper bad day.' Although you might choose to hope for more rewarding returns from your career in medicine (and hope that you will ultimately disagree with him once you have experienced what he has), if you had actually read his post and taken the time to appreciate what he was saying, you'd recognize that his reflections are representative of longstanding feelings that stem from many many years of experience.

it is very important that people (especially those with a considerable amount of experience in the field many of us are hoping to enter) offer different perspectives. on many different threads people who provide an outlook that might not fit neatly into your untouched expectations of what medicine is for everyone and will eventually be for you, are attacked with all sorts of character degrading claims. the introduction of uncertainty into your career path isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor are the people who provide unattractive accounts of what your future might have in store for you. Choose to believe what you want to believe but do not belittle or prematurely judge those who disagree with you.

[chiz2kul]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=55501

[Trexate]

Originally Posted by phospho

I'm assuming you never had a real full time job before medical school. I can tell you from personal experience (after working in multiple corporations over the years) that if 50% of docs hate their jobs, then you've got yourself a winner.

Go work in the corporate world for a few months, and I highly doubt you'll find more than 5% of employees who are "happy" with their jobs (I put "happy" in paranthesis because there's no such thing as happy from what I've experienced).

I'm a member of corporate America, and I approve this message.

[maceo]

Originally Posted by HappyChair2000

I posted this a while back in the general residency issues forum, but just had a particularly crappy day at work so thought I might repost it here for the benefit of those who still have other real options. Think real hard before going into medicine please:

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in there being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

thanks for the post. i appreciated reading it. I could have written this same exact post 6-9 years ago. now im an attending and it aint pretty. I wake up every morning cursing in 12 languages. I dont know the answer man I dont know .

[Nilf]

Originally Posted by HappyChair2000

I posted this a while back in the general residency issues forum, but just had a particularly crappy day at work so thought I might repost it here for the benefit of those who still have other real options. Think real hard before going into medicine please:

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in there being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

I've been in medicine for 10 years and I support this message. Oh and path rulez.

[Trexate]

I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well.

Don't take offense to this, but that's why you should do something you're passionate about.

I'm currently a software engineer, and couldn't be more miserable. A tough lesson to learn, but a valuable one too.

[maceo]

Originally Posted by muhali3

. Pessimism like yours at this point is not surprising. But really, why have you come this far if you hated it since MS1?
.

he told you the answer to that. He always thought it was going to get better. thats what everyone was telling him. And when it didnt three years in a row, it actually got worse he stopped getting his hopes up. Period. And im here to tell him it aint gonna get better. Wait til he takes a look at one of those credentialing applications for hospital priveleges. i think the only thing they dont do is a full colonoscopy. They go back to your first grade teacher to ask how you were. You have to submit hair samples for dna. its brutal

[housefish26]

Originally Posted by HappyChair2000

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined.

Really?? I mean, I know med school is tough, but I've seen a lot of the material and tests they use and it's really not that bad. My girlfriend in PT school had to take two semesters of med school classes and even she said it wasn't too hard. I just can't imagine that year 1 biochem would be tougher than something called "quantum chromodynamics" unless grade inflation at the ivy leagues is really worse than I thought!

[maceo]

Originally Posted by phospho

I'm assuming you never had a real full time job before medical school. I can tell you from personal experience (after working in multiple corporations over the years) that if 50% of docs hate their jobs, then you've got yourself a winner.
\

I dont agree with you. no other job handcuffs you as bad as medicine does.. it aint pretty. no other professions salary actually goes down as time goes by. No other profession can one mistake ruin your whole career. how about them apples?

[maceo]

Originally Posted by housefish26

Really?? I mean, I know med school is tough, but I've seen a lot of the material and tests they use and it's really not that bad. My girlfriend in PT school had to take two semesters of med school classes and even she said it wasn't too hard. I just can't imagine that year 1 biochem would be tougher than something called "quantum chromodynamics" unless grade inflation at the ivy leagues is really worse than I thought!

if you take one class it prolly aint that bad. but when you are taking biochem gross and physio at the same time.. it can get hairy. it can definitely get hairy where you lose all sense of time. personal hygeine and any priorities you may have had as an ormal person

[WellWornLad]

Originally Posted by maceo

I dont agree with you. no other job handcuffs you as bad as medicine does..

Military. I mean, come on, they will throw you in prison for years for leaving. Or mob hitman. That's a tough gig to shake.

no other professions salary actually goes down as time goes by.

Adjusted for inflation, pretty much every middle class job out there falls into that category.

No other profession can one mistake ruin your whole career.

Explosive ordinance disposal. Or politician.

Is the problem that you can't find another job, or you can't find another job that pays six figures?

[maceo]

Originally Posted by WellWornLad

Adjusted for inflation, pretty much every middle class job out there falls into that category.


Is the problem that you can't find another job, or you can't find another job that pays six figures?

Let me clarify. Doctors 20 years ago made more than they do now. In actual numbers. So lets say doctor made 20 dollars in 1980 he is still making 20 dolars. or less. 30 years later. I dont know of any profession that is still making exactly what they were making 30 years ago and working twice as hard. can you name one?

[mipp0]

Wow HappyChair...

I feel so...

Depressed...

I just had the best day of my life, but after reading this, I kinda wanna die...

Oh well Gotta keep truckin' down the good ol' pre-med track!!!

[Jolie South]

Originally Posted by maceo

if you take one class it prolly aint that bad. but when you are taking biochem gross and physio at the same time.. it can get hairy. it can definitely get hairy where you lose all sense of time. personal hygeine and any priorities you may have had as an ormal person

plus, add in other "classes" such as PBL, doctor skills, preceptorships and you have tons of time commitments that take you away from actual studying.

[mic2377]

Now, "gloom and doom" posts pop up like this frequently. However, the view point may vary significantly for most people.

I, for one, have been employed doing various menial labor such as working in a factory, driving a semi, and moving furniture. I often worked at many of these positions 30 hrs/week during the semester, and 70-80 hrs/week during breaks, to support myself through college. I can promise you, that nothing will be as bad as that for me.

Oh, on another side note? How about working as a paramedic? It is stressful, hectic, and similarly one mistake can cost you your career. You get woken up all the time in the middle of the night for complete BS such as "I stubbed my toe" or "I ran out of meds". It takes at least 3 years of school/experience to become a medic, and guess how much you get paid? $13/hr.

I would say count your blessings!

[Concubine]

Although it was tough, I actually enjoyed first year. Would I go through admissions and first year again? Probably not.

[MegaProjectile]

Originally Posted by HappyChair2000

I posted this a while back in the general residency issues forum, but just had a particularly crappy day at work so thought I might repost it here for the benefit of those who still have other real options. Think real hard before going into medicine please:

I would not.

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

But I thought, you know what, life as an academic seems miserable. Only a few of the top grad students actually get tenure track positions and even then its a bare-knuckle fight to make it. I didn't think I'd like the nitty-gritty of law, and finance seemed hollow.

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in there being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined. The 8 hours of lecture and hours of studying at night devastated any semblance I had of a life. Third year was even worse. 80-100 weeks on all the major rotations. Was treated like **** by everyone. During this year, a happy long term relationship I was in broke off. I haven't been in another one since. And guess what, turns out I really didn't like clinical medicine. More paperwork than I ever dreamed of, constantly angry coworkers, ungrateful, uncompliant patients, and, perhaps most of all, a complete loss of personal autonomy.

At that point though, I was $170,000 in debt and didn't have much choice but to power through residency at least. I decided on a clinical residency hoping things would get better. They just got worse. Now I'm stuck alone in an incredibly intense job I hate that takes up every waking moment of the day. I've sacrificed relationships and am thousands of miles away from friends and family for the "dream" of being a doctor. But that's okay, I make $8 an hour and am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt which makes up for it. That old office space saying now applies to me, "Every day is worse than the last so every day you see me is the worst day of my life."

Meanwhile, friends from college who decided on academia are landing those tenure track positions, finance folks are millionaires, and folks in politics are getting good positions in the current administration. They all have free time, hobbies, and are starting families.

Heed my warnings. Unless you REALLY, REALLY want to and dream of being a doctor, don't do it. About 10% of folks I run into fall into this category and actually seem happy in their job. The rest just seem trapped into the job because of two reasons. 1) Debt (early in the career) and 2) they've spent so much time training that they're too old to start in an entry level post in another field (later in the career). Otherwise, although it may seem like a logical decision, it's just not worth the sacrifices.

As for me, I'm thinking of retraining in path or rads or something. It's not really why I went to med school, but I just can't take this **** anymore.

Having worked several jobs(including odd ones) I think medicine is a step up for me. I think sometimes students from elite posh schools resent the grueling path that medicine presents. For those of us that have already worked certain jobs(construction work for me), medicine is appealing. It cannot get worse than the back-breaking lifts I had to do starting at 5am each day. I can understand the nostalgia that can rise when you've had other options to choose from(my friend from Cornell had a consulting gig thrown at him as soon as he graduated). I never had those options, so I'm not really sure if I'll become bitter 4 years down the road.

Your post, however, raising some good points about picking a specialty that we really love . There are several fields of medicine that allow a 9-5 balance. Some may not pay the best but they allow for other endeavors in life in addition to bringing in a 6 figure: Rads,Optho,Derm Fam med, EM(shift work), and Uro(mostly electives and office consult).

[Kaustikos]

I love posts from people who have never actually worked a day in their lives in a real work environment and are in med school/residency pissing and bitching about how work sucks. Get over yourselves. You guys are more naive than I can imagine, thinking people outside of medicine aren't dealing with **** jobs. The market sucking as bad as it is, unemployment only rising, and people not moving up, it IS bad for everyone else. Where I work, we turn down people who have masters because they're "underqualified" and turn down people with PhD's because they're "overqualified". It's tough for everyone - especially people getting masters because most don't even get proper compensation at all.
We all deal with the bull**** you're talking about. Get a real 9-5 job that doesn't pay you **** for 2 years and then talk about how "bad" your life is.

Talk to people who got art/english/etc majors in undergrad and are now working starbucks to pay off their 50-100k in loans with minimum wage.

Talk to people who have a 30-40k/yr income working in the industrial part of america who have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about.

Talk to anyone outside of your bitch-fest about how bad people have it now and THEN talk about how bad you guys have it. You're going into a career with
a) job security
b) minimum 70k salary

So spare me the complaining. Go complain in the resident forums where everyone else is having a bad day. Don't come here expecting sympathy, especially from me. Mandatory 1 year tenure in a ****-job in retail/low-income job should be a standard for anyone wanting to pursue medicine, so they understand how "bad" their situation is.

[Van Chowder]

Originally Posted by Kaustikos

I love posts from people who have never actually worked a day in their lives in a real work environment and are in med school/residency pissing and bitching about how work sucks. Get over yourselves. You guys are more naive than I can imagine, thinking people outside of medicine aren't dealing with **** jobs. The market sucking as bad as it is, unemployment only rising, and people not moving up, it IS bad for everyone else. Where I work, we turn down people who have masters because they're "underqualified" and turn down people with PhD's because they're "overqualified". It's tough for everyone - especially people getting masters because most don't even get proper compensation at all.
We all deal with the bull**** you're talking about. Get a real 9-5 job that doesn't pay you **** for 2 years and then talk about how "bad" your life is.

Talk to people who got art/english/etc majors in undergrad and are now working starbucks to pay off their 50-100k in loans with minimum wage.

Talk to people who have a 30-40k/yr income working in the industrial part of america who have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about.

Talk to anyone outside of your bitch-fest about how bad people have it now and THEN talk about how bad you guys have it. You're going into a career with
a) job security
b) minimum 70k salary

So spare me the complaining. Go complain in the resident forums where everyone else is having a bad day. Don't come here expecting sympathy, especially from me. Mandatory 1 year tenure in a ****-job in retail/low-income job should be a standard for anyone wanting to pursue medicine, so they understand how "bad" their situation is.

Ok heres the problem with your idea. Yea it would suck to have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about on 40k/yr , it would also suck to have 19 dogs and 32 cats on a 19k/yr salary, but guess what no one made that person ahve four kids, or made the next guy hace 19 dogs and 32 cats, personal decision. Sounds like a bit of a foolish one at that when only making 40K/year.
And while there is no dispute that physicians still make more money than the majority of professions in the United States ( if not the world ) the real issue is, after starting medical school you are really trapped with tons and tons of debt that must be paid back. And to the dude that said thats why you should onlky do what you are passionate about... really brohan? Really? I think most people ARE passionate about medicine until they actually discover for their selves that it is not for them? If you went into engineering for a different reason, thats your bad.

I thank you for the post Op, however I guess I will end up making the same "mistakes" you did.
Good luck with ever thing.



I have to take a dump, dangit...

[greatnt249]

Originally Posted by Van Chowder

Ok heres the problem with your idea. Yea it would suck to have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about on 40k/yr , it would also suck to have 19 dogs and 32 cats on a 19k/yr salary, but guess what no one made that person ahve four kids, or made the next guy hace 19 dogs and 32 cats, personal decision. Sounds like a bit of a foolish one at that when only making 40K/year.

Did you even stop to consider that the guys with four kids may have been making more money before all of a sudden being forced to take a job for way less?

Not everyone has the luxury of choosing to be in the situations they're in.

[Engineer2MD]

I need to add to this. Don't automatically assume other careers are better. I was an engineer - spent 6 years shining at one of the best schools in the country and then was fast tracked into the TOP career choice in my field. It was everything I "ever wanted". I was "extremely successful."

Then when I got into the real-world, I spent most days crying on the way to work. I spent rougly 50% of my time out of the state (on travel) at an air force base in the BFE desert. Because my firm was a government contractor, it took an ACT OF CONGRESS to raise our salaries. Guess how often that happened?

And yes, by the time I left that career, I was making less than when I started. (true story) And my benefits were significantly worse.

I won't even go in to how depressing the work was - nothing EVER got done because of the constant bickering/paperwork/government-involvement, etc. People blowing through millions of taxpayer dollars sitting on their @$$es. Let me just say that if an emergency or disaster ever happens in the U.S., my advice, is RUN. RUN AWAY.

So yeah, it's the same everywhere. You sound like I did. Before I left.
Do I think medicine is any better? Nope. But I have a good grasp on what I'm getting myself into.

[ColeOnTheRoll]

Originally Posted by Kaustikos

I love posts from people who have never actually worked a day in their lives in a real work environment and are in med school/residency pissing and bitching about how work sucks. Get over yourselves. You guys are more naive than I can imagine, thinking people outside of medicine aren't dealing with **** jobs. The market sucking as bad as it is, unemployment only rising, and people not moving up, it IS bad for everyone else. Where I work, we turn down people who have masters because they're "underqualified" and turn down people with PhD's because they're "overqualified". It's tough for everyone - especially people getting masters because most don't even get proper compensation at all.
We all deal with the bull**** you're talking about. Get a real 9-5 job that doesn't pay you **** for 2 years and then talk about how "bad" your life is.

Talk to people who got art/english/etc majors in undergrad and are now working starbucks to pay off their 50-100k in loans with minimum wage.

Talk to people who have a 30-40k/yr income working in the industrial part of america who have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about.

Talk to anyone outside of your bitch-fest about how bad people have it now and THEN talk about how bad you guys have it. You're going into a career with
a) job security
b) minimum 70k salary

So spare me the complaining. Go complain in the resident forums where everyone else is having a bad day. Don't come here expecting sympathy, especially from me. Mandatory 1 year tenure in a ****-job in retail/low-income job should be a standard for anyone wanting to pursue medicine, so they understand how "bad" their situation is.

It's all about perspective.

No offense OP, but you come across as the kind of person who just wanted to work, be happy, and make a ton of money. Guess what? Most jobs don't really work that way. It also seems like you had no idea what you were getting yourself into. It sounds like you expected medical training to be a cake walk.

You had "options." You picked the wrong one. It sounds like you were looking for the "easiest" way out. You misjudged. I'm sorry that you're unhappy, and I'm sorry that you've become disillusioned with medicine, but I don't think this is the typical experience by any means.

[Zoom-Zoom]

Screw this douche. Screw him.

I'm sick and tired of posters like this. He may be a resident but these types of posts are just another type of spam.

Aside from the point that his story just doesn't add up factually in a lot of ways (medical school by a long shot in no way amounts to the efforts and hours you described, from any of the visits I made this year, and it has not been in the least bit overwhelming intellectually for a couple of my super-smart physics-major friends), it is important to note that there are just as many unhappy lawyers, academics, dog-walkers, hair stylists, etc. There's nothing special about medicine. This guy would be unhappy no matter what he did. There's no reason he can't do research as an MD with his amazing IQ and Ivy connections... no reason he couldn't hit the free market with his MD and do just as well as he would have without it. He has more options now that he ever did, but he's too much of a ***** to realize it. Don't scare others because you're depressed. Go see a psychiatrist and get some prozac, you whiney, pathetic bitch.

[Kaustikos]

Originally Posted by Van Chowder

Ok heres the problem with your idea. Yea it would suck to have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about on 40k/yr , it would also suck to have 19 dogs and 32 cats on a 19k/yr salary, but guess what no one made that person ahve four kids, or made the next guy hace 19 dogs and 32 cats, personal decision. Sounds like a bit of a foolish one at that when only making 40K/year.
And while there is no dispute that physicians still make more money than the majority of professions in the United States ( if not the world ) the real issue is, after starting medical school you are really trapped with tons and tons of debt that must be paid back. And to the dude that said thats why you should onlky do what you are passionate about... really brohan? Really? I think most people ARE passionate about medicine until they actually discover for their selves that it is not for them? If you went into engineering for a different reason, thats your bad.

I thank you for the post Op, however I guess I will end up making the same "mistakes" you did.
Good luck with ever thing.



I have to take a dump, dangit...

Really? That's all you got out of it? My point wasn't that, I used that only as an example. Following the entire post, you'd realize what I am trying to get at.

[MaryLennox]

Originally Posted by HappyChair2000

I never really had that great an idea of what a doctor did, but I wanted to be the guy in there being heroic and saving lives. I liked science, and the end result would be a secure job with a darn decent, if not finance level, income while making a huge impact on the lives of others. I investigated in further, did a lot of shadowing and thought, "Hey, this looks damn cool."

Uhh . . . doesn't THIS seem like the problem??? I don't know what it was like for you, but premeds these days- at least me, i don't know about everyone else- are not in this boat. we hear ALL THE TIME that we shouldn't expect to be the heroic guy saving lives. Yes, i've heard how much paperwork it is. I've heard a million and one drawbacks of medicine from the doctors i've shadowed. maybe it was all a shock to you, but these days i think we are all prepared for the reality of these drawbacks.

I've also met a million-and-one pain in the arse premeds who think they are awesome and entitled and go straight through college and med school on mom and dad's buck and then lose it when it's hard. it's not about the job, it's about your attitude and yours sounds crappy. I've had lots of bad jobs, and all jobs have pros and cons. As far as medicine goes, I think the pros outweigh the cons. it's as simple as that.

[BennieBlanco]

Originally Posted by phospho

I'm assuming you never had a real full time job before medical school. I can tell you from personal experience (after working in multiple corporations over the years) that if 50% of docs hate their jobs, then you've got yourself a winner.

Go work in the corporate world for a few months, and I highly doubt you'll find more than 5% of employees who are "happy" with their jobs (I put "happy" in paranthesis because there's no such thing as happy from what I've experienced).

Unfortunately, many people go into medicine without prior world/outside experience - and therefore have nothing to compare it to. I truly believe that if 40% are able to tolerate it, and 10% are happy, then that's a good thing.

On the other hand, I'm just a premed, and I can't tell you that I know what you're going through. Honestly, I can't imagine. You've gotta keep your head up though

Agreed. I am a non trad who had a different career.

Guessing that 90% of the people I worked with didn't like their job. Just doing it to get by.

Actually I've found that 90/10 or 80/20 ratio holds up to a lot of things. How many people are happy in the world? How many people are satisfied from their job? How many people go the extra mile? How many people are managing their finances well?

on and on. Usually falls into a 80/20, 90/10 percentage break down. Medicine isn't as bad as these guys make it sound. It just isn't suited for everyone.

[BennieBlanco]

Originally Posted by Zoom-Zoom

Screw this douche. Screw him.

I'm sick and tired of posters like this. He may be a resident but these types of posts are just another type of spam.

Aside from the point that his story just doesn't add up factually in a lot of ways (medical school by a long shot in no way amounts to the efforts and hours you described, from any of the visits I made this year, and it has not been in the least bit overwhelming intellectually for a couple of my super-smart physics-major friends), it is important to note that there are just as many unhappy lawyers, academics, dog-walkers, hair stylists, etc. There's nothing special about medicine. This guy would be unhappy no matter what he did. There's no reason he can't do research as an MD with his amazing IQ and Ivy connections... no reason he couldn't hit the free market with his MD and do just as well as he would have without it. He has more options now that he ever did, but he's too much of a ***** to realize it. Don't scare others because you're depressed. Go see a psychiatrist and get some prozac, you whiney, pathetic bitch.

whhoooooaa.

Relax, everyone has bad days and he likely chose the wrong career for himself. People make mistakes. Plus people can get depressed and down (have you ever been down in your life!?)

Residency is tough. Maybe after residency with a little more pay and a little more autonomy he will enjoy it more.

This should not dissuade anyone from pursuing their goals. If you have shadowed doctors and been around patients, then you will know what you are getting into.

If you haven't then this should scare you into getting around and reading about medicine! (but I think most people on SDN already do this).

Good luck to all, and especially good luck to the OP. Give yourself a year outside residency and if it is no good you can change careers. Tough? yes. But fear not.

Walt Disney became successful in his 40s, the KFC guy did after 65, MANY people don't really start to thrive until 30s-40s, life involves experience and you have some now.

You still have 35 years to work and debt can be paid off if you find something you really enjoy.

[BennieBlanco]

Originally Posted by Engineer2MD

I need to add to this. Don't automatically assume other careers are better. I was an engineer - spent 6 years shining at one of the best schools in the country and then was fast tracked into the TOP career choice in my field. It was everything I "ever wanted". I was "extremely successful."

Then when I got into the real-world, I spent most days crying on the way to work. I spent rougly 50% of my time out of the state (on travel) at an air force base in the BFE desert. Because my firm was a government contractor, it took an ACT OF CONGRESS to raise our salaries. Guess how often that happened?

And yes, by the time I left that career, I was making less than when I started. (true story) And my benefits were significantly worse.

I won't even go in to how depressing the work was - nothing EVER got done because of the constant bickering/paperwork/government-involvement, etc. People blowing through millions of taxpayer dollars sitting on their @$$es. Let me just say that if an emergency or disaster ever happens in the U.S., my advice, is RUN. RUN AWAY.

So yeah, it's the same everywhere. You sound like I did. Before I left.
Do I think medicine is any better? Nope. But I have a good grasp on what I'm getting myself into.

I think the best thing I did was go work in another field for years because it gave me the perspective that,

1. The grass is always greener on the other side
2. The grass isn't always greener on the other side

I was in sales and found that everyone is sales always thinks another company is paying more and doing better (sometimes it is the case). So 80-90% think that there is something better out there. Then you start to get depressed and perform poorly.

Then you get to that other company or you meet people in that other "great" company and they are thinking the same thing!

So you begin to realize that everyone is just jockeying to move somewhere else. Then you realize that happiness isn't dependent on your job or your paycheck, not on your circumstances.

most of the people who HATE medicine are those that have only been in medicine, or they chose something that was overly time consuming or for money.

Those who have had careers outside know how bad and monotonous work can be, so when they get to medicine it is like a breath of fresh air. Just like an immigrant that is willing to work 60hrs in construction while an American born kid couldn't last 10 hrs a week doing it.

Chose a speciality that isn't a TIME killer and that you are super interested in (would you do it if it only paid 75k per year?). Then you should be ok and happier!

Good luck friends.

[housefish26]

Originally Posted by Zoom-Zoom

Screw this douche. Screw him.

I'm sick and tired of posters like this. He may be a resident but these types of posts are just another type of spam.

Aside from the point that his story just doesn't add up factually in a lot of ways (medical school by a long shot in no way amounts to the efforts and hours you described, from any of the visits I made this year, and it has not been in the least bit overwhelming intellectually for a couple of my super-smart physics-major friends), it is important to note that there are just as many unhappy lawyers, academics, dog-walkers, hair stylists, etc. There's nothing special about medicine. This guy would be unhappy no matter what he did. There's no reason he can't do research as an MD with his amazing IQ and Ivy connections... no reason he couldn't hit the free market with his MD and do just as well as he would have without it. He has more options now that he ever did, but he's too much of a ***** to realize it. Don't scare others because you're depressed. Go see a psychiatrist and get some prozac, you whiney, pathetic bitch.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. From what I've seen, this Zoom-Zoom guy is consistently posting the most honest, insightful comments here.

[wongb18c]

Originally Posted by Kaustikos

I love posts from people who have never actually worked a day in their lives in a real work environment and are in med school/residency pissing and bitching about how work sucks. Get over yourselves. You guys are more naive than I can imagine, thinking people outside of medicine aren't dealing with **** jobs. The market sucking as bad as it is, unemployment only rising, and people not moving up, it IS bad for everyone else. Where I work, we turn down people who have masters because they're "underqualified" and turn down people with PhD's because they're "overqualified". It's tough for everyone - especially people getting masters because most don't even get proper compensation at all.
We all deal with the bull**** you're talking about. Get a real 9-5 job that doesn't pay you **** for 2 years and then talk about how "bad" your life is.

Talk to people who got art/english/etc majors in undergrad and are now working starbucks to pay off their 50-100k in loans with minimum wage.

Talk to people who have a 30-40k/yr income working in the industrial part of america who have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about.

Talk to anyone outside of your bitch-fest about how bad people have it now and THEN talk about how bad you guys have it. You're going into a career with
a) job security
b) minimum 70k salary

So spare me the complaining. Go complain in the resident forums where everyone else is having a bad day. Don't come here expecting sympathy, especially from me. Mandatory 1 year tenure in a ****-job in retail/low-income job should be a standard for anyone wanting to pursue medicine, so they understand how "bad" their situation is.

I agree and support this post. I guess different people from different upbringing and backgrounds will obviously have mixed feelings about medicine as a career. Coming from a really poor family and country, now given the opportunity to study medicine in the US, I feel lucky and blessed.. no matter HOW hard I have to study or work... it can only get better for me not worse.. haha.

[acridknight]

c'mon guys (and gals).... don't tell me you fell for this.


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[Slowpoke]

Originally Posted by Kaustikos

I love posts from people who have never actually worked a day in their lives in a real work environment and are in med school/residency pissing and bitching about how work sucks. Get over yourselves. You guys are more naive than I can imagine, thinking people outside of medicine aren't dealing with **** jobs. The market sucking as bad as it is, unemployment only rising, and people not moving up, it IS bad for everyone else. Where I work, we turn down people who have masters because they're "underqualified" and turn down people with PhD's because they're "overqualified". It's tough for everyone - especially people getting masters because most don't even get proper compensation at all.
We all deal with the bull**** you're talking about. Get a real 9-5 job that doesn't pay you **** for 2 years and then talk about how "bad" your life is.

Talk to people who got art/english/etc majors in undergrad and are now working starbucks to pay off their 50-100k in loans with minimum wage.

Talk to people who have a 30-40k/yr income working in the industrial part of america who have 4 kids and a mortgage to worry about.

Talk to anyone outside of your bitch-fest about how bad people have it now and THEN talk about how bad you guys have it. You're going into a career with
a) job security
b) minimum 70k salary

So spare me the complaining. Go complain in the resident forums where everyone else is having a bad day. Don't come here expecting sympathy, especially from me. Mandatory 1 year tenure in a ****-job in retail/low-income job should be a standard for anyone wanting to pursue medicine, so they understand how "bad" their situation is.

This right here, ladies and gentelmen, speaks the truth.

/thread

[Medwell]

You should have become a string theorist.

[not a dvr user]

Originally Posted by HappyChair2000

I still remember when I applied, right after college. At that point, I thought the world was my oyster. I graduated from a Ivy school with great grades and some really good extracurriculars. Not to sound like too big of a douche, but I had some options. I loved theoretical physics and wanted to be a string theorist. I also loved politics and strongly considered law school as well. I was courted by hedge funds for my mathematical aptitude.

...

I got into a top tier med school, and it all went down hill from there. The first two years were brutally hard, harder than anything I had experienced before, even in the hardest of undergrad sciences (quantum chromodynamics included), or had even imagined.

Two things:

a) I'm a prestigious ivy-leaguer as well, and I can say with absolute confidence that nobody, and I mean nobody, is being courted by hedge funds. Nobody ever was "courted" by hedge funds. Even when the economy was hot, you had to jump through some serious hoops against a lot of really qualified competition to get a good job at a good firm.

But now that the economy is garbage, not even the qualified people are getting jobs. One of my friends landed a job consulting at Lehman right out of college after doing internships at Goldman. Guess what he's doing right now? Another one of my friends, a brother in the same fraternity as me, was lucky/smart enough to advance to a pretty high position at a hedge fund. Guess how much he's worth as a connection?

Also, i-bankers work just as hard as med/residents. They're putting in the hours too. As a caveat, they are making mad bank, but like OP said, it's some seriously hollow ****. Also, as biggie once said, mo money mo problems, so there you go. OP, do you really want mo problems?

b) if anything, this is a ringing endorsement of NOT CHOOSING A SCHOOL BASED ON PRESTIGE. Don't do it. This guy's a prestige whore, and look how much that's worth.

[Trexate]

This guy's a prestige whore, and look how much that's worth.

A lifetime of whining and crying about how unfair life is because you actually have to work for a living?

ZING!

[acridknight]

Originally Posted by acridknight

c'mon guys (and gals).... don't tell me you fell for this.


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[BennieBlanco]

Originally Posted by Trexate

A lifetime of whining and crying about how unfair life is because you actually have to work for a living?

ZING!

Well put!

I love people with excellent work ethics.

Working 50-80 hrs a week HARD is a great quality.

What else are you going to do when you are awake?

People who "retire" and move to hawaii never stay. If you guys actually know people that have done this (I know a few), they never stay.

They get bored in about 6 months of doing nothing and "living the life". Then they come back and start a new business or try to make themselves again.

It is true that the journey is better than the destination!

As the OP is finding out maybe for the first time.

[BennieBlanco]

Originally Posted by acridknight

not a troll dude. You always call people trolls.

It is a just a depressed person working in medicine.

[Narmerguy]

Originally Posted by BennieBlanco

not a troll dude. You always call people trolls.

It is a just a depressed person working in medicine.

Seriously...the way that term is used on this forum, half the posters are trolls half of the time.

Just kidding...half kidding.

[Kaustikos]

Originally Posted by Narmerguy

Seriously...the way that term is used on this forum, half the posters are trolls half of the time.

Just kidding...half kidding.

reported for trolling

[neuro1986]

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