Can Anyone Beat Top My Debt?

You should calculate that with interest. lol.

I can't top it, but I'll be close. I'm in the mid 220's right now, and I have 2 years of school left at ~55k each, assuming I take out the maximum amount. With interest, that's probably around 350k by the end of school. Take on 4 years of 8.5% interest since there's no way in hell I'll be paying on them while making 40k a year, and that's a healthy ~$420,000 by the time I have a real job. Fun!

I wouldn't really worry about it. get a great residency then afterwards just chip away at it ....

ella2013 said:

Preface: I'm sharing something personal in the hopes of stimulating a discussion. Please don't bash my financial decisions... but comments are welcome.

Let's just say that I have yet to meet another person with as much educational debt as I do. Here's a little breakdown for you. And NO my parents were not able to financially help me beyond saving my ass here and there with an occasional rent payment or electric bill.

So... (gulp) here goes... have I ever actually written this down before???

Undergrad approx $30,000.00 USD per year for tuition (I always worked for housing as an RA or whatever) times 4 years. Ouch

2 years Post-Bacc Pre-Med program (1 at Harvard ($35,000 USD and 1 at state school $12,000 USD)

1 Master's degree at a top tier University approx $65,000 USD

Total BEFORE medical school even starts??? Approximately $232,000 American dollars. Yup. damn right almost a quarter of a million dollars.

Now, it just so happens that although I applied to (many) cheap state schools, I was only accepted into one of the most expensive schools in the US. When you factor in housing costs, medical school will cost me $71,000.00 USD per year (x4)

So by the time I'm I physician, I'll be starting my career with $516,000.00 USD of educational debt. Over half a million dollars.

Lets not even talk about my mortgage...

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Better not go primary care.

This may depress you, but I used to do loans nationally. Which means I would talk to 200-600 people every month and I would see credit reports on usually 20-50% depending on the month. I've seen thousands of people's credit reports, including doctors and every profession you can imagine.

You will easily be in the top 1% of educational debt in America, scratch that, in the history of the world. There is no doubt in my mind.

I've done loans for people with 500k plus in debt, but it is usally other stuff (credit cards, cars, etc). There was one doc 3 years ago with a half million in student loans, I was pretty impressed with that (he consolidated everything), but that was just one guy. I thought it was a mortgage when I first looked at it.

You are the reason the averages jump up.

Kr4meR said:

I wouldn't really worry about it. get a great residency then afterwards just chip away at it ....

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It's an easy thing to say but not in practice.

All I can say to ella2013 is I sympathize.
I am only running about 300k in comparison.

The reality is that it probably will impact your career decisions. Good luck to you.

Man I LOVE this thread, doesn't make me feel so bad about my situation.

wow ella, I'm starting to feel sorry for you (and hoping that college scholarships headed my way by the time I apply for college next year so I don't have the daunting task of clearing out all of that debt!) Good Luck ps- I hear being a head of diagnostic medicine w/ the last name "House" pays pretty well

The premise of this thread is kind of odd. Of all the competitions I've ever been invited to enter, this is one that I'm quite content to lose.

ella2013 said:

I just find it hard to believe that NO ONE else has this much. My school is $280k for 4 years. Everyone that I personally know has financed either all of it or most of it unless they are armed forces. And I know tons of people who came to my school with a Masters from a fancy school. So that's close to $350k right there... and out of all of those, there is no way that every single student has NO undergrad or PBPM debt. Plus I worked to pay my living expenses through college. And while I go to one of the most expensive med schools, there are several that are more expensive...

How the heck do people do it?

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I can tell you how I did it: I didn't go to any fancy schools, and I was extremely fortunate to get a full scholarship for med school.

FWIW, I'm sorry that your state schools didn't work out. I can't even wrap my mind around the kind of money that you're talking about. The only advice I can even think to offer is to find a good financial counselor to help you plan for paying it all back.

And a sidenote.... I am not armed forces material. Not because of age or being out of shape... I'm just not good with authority

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I reckon I'm fine with authority, as long as I'm the authority.

Honestly, this thread makes me feel alot better.

I will be around 300K give or take 10K based on my figures.

But, that will give me two doctorates, master, and two BA/BS.

Basically, my student loan debt is that beach house I wanted to get, lol!!!

I know you want replies that "beat you" but I thought I'd just throw out my own general comments, since I definitely do not come close to you.

I accrued about 20k in debt through private student loans solely to assist in rent payments while living in NYC and going to respiratory therapy school. I was fortunate enough to apply and initially receive scholarships, and eventually our gov passed laws giving all state/city university students that are veterans 97%(or so) tuition assistance. I also received no aid from parents (they live 6k miles away and have that pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality anyway).

Regardless of all the debt, I am thoroughly impressed that you did it on your own, that in itself is priceless. I wish you the best with your finances and future.

(sent you a PM also, didn't want to seem like I was bashing your decisions here)

I was lucky with undergrad - I have somewhere around $25K of debt there. And I consolidated it at 2.7% interest. Med school, OTOH, will eventually run me around $250K of debt. My husband and I figure we're just going to have to live frugally and pay that sucker off as fast as possible. There are some positions that will help you pay your debt off - in looking at positions available now (and I hope they will be somewhat similar in benefits when I'm ready to be looking for a job), there are hospitals and groups that offer quite a bit of loan repayment depending on your specialty and length of employment.

Hey guys,
I'm an MSW, and my student debt, for 3 years of undergrad and 2.5 of grad school, are at about 200 grand.
Terrifying, but the price of admission to this show: lots of debt, many years of hard study, and then a competitive job market.
On the plus side:
A great job, that you love, doing what you're good at, and helping people.
As one of my mentors said to me,
"Hey -- if it were easy, anyone could do it".
Besides, admit it -- was there any other career you even vaguely felt like doing?
You love it, you're good at it, and you're stuck with it.
Who wants to buy a house, anyways?!?
Cheers!

I do not owe that much for my undergraduate. But I figure that if I do go to medical school, when I am done, I will be about 280k in debt. And I am definitely not in good physical condition to be in the military.
I consider doing the underserved area for repayment. But can anyone tell me how bad that is? Do they even let u choose from a list of " underserved area" for where u want to go and are they refering to 'rural' area which I don't mind or somewhere dangerous where doctos may get shot ? Anyone know anybody who has done that?

I am not doing this money but I would like to know if I can even be able to pay off my loan and still be able to live decent with the healthcare reform.
Seriously, will doctors be poorer than an average joe with the healthcare reform?
I was told by a friend whose father is a primary doctor that average primary care physician makes around 150k. With 280k in debt, will doctor at least make 150k after the healthcare reform?
My under graduate GPA wasn't good and so I will be happy if I get into medical school. So, I know for sure I won't get any help for the 1st year besides loan. But is there's any chance of scholarship if I perform well after 1st year in med school? Any recommendation of scholarship that I can start looking into?
Another ridiculous question I have, when it comes to worse that I cannot repay my loan here , can I practice medicine anywhere else such as the WHO as an American physician and make decent living?
I am losing my sleep with these reform thing and the future debts. I don't want ot give up my dream easily but if I can't even make at least 150k, I don't see how I can pay off my debt and still be able to offer my family a decent living( I mean at least confortable and not poorer than we already are).

I am glad I don't have you beat. But.. I do not have a master's. I started an informal post-bacc in Fall '08 after working in the legal field for a few years, and saved up enough to cover tuition + living expenses. I have family nearby so no shortage of free dinners a night or two a week.

For my first bachelor's I had an athletic scholarship that covered tuition and books. I had to pay room & board and was fortunate enough that my parents picked up the tab while I worked part time to share in the burden. If there weren't those pesky NCAA regulations/eligibility rules for the length you are eligible to be a member of an intercollegiate team, I probably would have tried that route again... kidding.

So while the well is drying up from what I've saved between graduating, working in the legal field and starting this informal post-bacc, I feel like I am in good shape. I managed to buy a new car and pay it off within a year (nothing fancy, point-A to point-B with good fuel economy). I will probably drive it into the ground, and not be embarrassed to do so. You do what you have to do.

I will go into significant debt for the first time from the student loans for med school, if I can get accepted, of course. I realize I really won't have it that bad considering it could be a lot worse... thanks, OP!

Ella - Achieving your dreams is priceless. I'd rather have tons of debt and be an MD than have no debt and not be an MD.

The guy making only $25K/yr wouldn't qualify for a chevy avalanche that costs $47K.

In my home state, if you're an independent student with no savings, and you go the public in-state route for undergrad and then for med school, and you borrow COA, using any wages for nonbudgeted expenses (maybe a car, maybe premed extracurriculars), you're looking at $250k debt at med school graduation. It's my understanding that this amount easily grows to $400k by the end of residency.

That's public school. That's if you make no mistakes. That's if you can get out of undergrad in 4 years. A quarter million is the new lowball estimate.

I think it's ridiculous that the public route can put new docs in the kind of debt that maybe 3 years ago was considered outrageous and irresponsible.

(UWash undergrad (as of '09-'10 school year) is $24,367 per year. UWash med school is $38,158/yr.)

And fwiw, I'll easily be in the half million debt club. Easily.

deleted.

ella2013 said:

Preface: I'm sharing something personal in the hopes of stimulating a discussion. Please don't bash my financial decisions... but comments are welcome.

Let's just say that I have yet to meet another person with as much educational debt as I do. Here's a little breakdown for you. And NO my parents were not able to financially help me beyond saving my ass here and there with an occasional rent payment or electric bill.

So... (gulp) here goes... have I ever actually written this down before???

Undergrad approx $30,000.00 USD per year for tuition (I always worked for housing as an RA or whatever) times 4 years. Ouch

2 years Post-Bacc Pre-Med program (1 at Harvard ($35,000 USD and 1 at state school $12,000 USD)

1 Master's degree at a top tier University approx $65,000 USD

Total BEFORE medical school even starts??? Approximately $232,000 American dollars. Yup. damn right almost a quarter of a million dollars.

Now, it just so happens that although I applied to (many) cheap state schools, I was only accepted into one of the most expensive schools in the US. When you factor in housing costs, medical school will cost me $71,000.00 USD per year (x4)

So by the time I'm I physician, I'll be starting my career with $516,000.00 USD of educational debt. Over half a million dollars.

Lets not even talk about my mortgage...

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This is the first post of a series. Next:

Can you beat top my ego?

Can you beat top my depravity?

Can you beat top my greed?

Please stay tuned.

Can anyone beat top my beatboxing??

Just kidding.

Ella, I think you unwittingly gave everyone a massive boost today! Talk about taking one for the team! xoxoxo. In my humble opinion, what you've experienced throughout your educational career is well beyond any price tag. Granted, debt blows, but as long as you have enough cash left over to put a roof over your head, food in your belly, and clothes on your back, what else is there? Toss into the mix great relationships with family and friends and a job you love, you have a golden life ahead of you. Student loans be damned.

ella2013 said:

Preface: I'm sharing something personal in the hopes of stimulating a discussion. Please don't bash my financial decisions... but comments are welcome.

Let's just say that I have yet to meet another person with as much educational debt as I do. Here's a little breakdown for you. And NO my parents were not able to financially help me beyond saving my ass here and there with an occasional rent payment or electric bill.

So... (gulp) here goes... have I ever actually written this down before???

Undergrad approx $30,000.00 USD per year for tuition (I always worked for housing as an RA or whatever) times 4 years. Ouch

2 years Post-Bacc Pre-Med program (1 at Harvard ($35,000 USD and 1 at state school $12,000 USD)

1 Master's degree at a top tier University approx $65,000 USD

Total BEFORE medical school even starts??? Approximately $232,000 American dollars. Yup. damn right almost a quarter of a million dollars.

Now, it just so happens that although I applied to (many) cheap state schools, I was only accepted into one of the most expensive schools in the US. When you factor in housing costs, medical school will cost me $71,000.00 USD per year (x4)

So by the time I'm I physician, I'll be starting my career with $516,000.00 USD of educational debt. Over half a million dollars.

Lets not even talk about my mortgage...

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You overpaid for undergrad. A ton.

You overpaid for post bacc. A ton.

And same for the masters degree - why in hell did you do that?

And nobody in your situation wants to hear it, but not getting into one of your state schools, but taking on $71k a year somewhere else, is foolish.

Yours is a case study in what NOT to do.

No one should ever have to pay for a Masters! Ever!

If anyone is reading this and considering a masters, please look at schools that need TAs and will pay your tuition for being a TA (besides, TAing is an awesome resume booster in my opinion).

But I have a ton of debt myself just from undergrad - around $80,000 or so (haven't really checked yet). I am expecting to be around $300,000 when I am done with medical school... once I get into medical school... but atleast for now I am not paying for my masters and I get to do surgery on cockroach and claim it's research (and TA Human Anatomy this semester).

ella2013 said:

You're right. Getting wait-listed at the cheap schools and accepted at the expensive med school was really foolish. I should have planned better.

???

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Attending the expensive med school, given your already high level of student debt, was the foolish part...on top of the foolishness of going deep into debt for undergrad, post bacc, and a worthless masters degree...

i'm on the other end. i started undergrad with nothing and actually finished with money in my savings (wait, i didn't even have a savings account when i started undergrad. enough to buy a used honda then i bought a 2nd new car six months later. No loans, absolutely no loans is the policy. I believe in making use of merit scholarships to the fullest ability. I plan on doing my masters but it has to be free. Heck, i'm praying i get a stipend in additon to full tuition. Of course i have to work hard towards that which is what i'm doing now.

To the OP, what's done has been done. Just look for ways you can consolidate your debt or if you plan on doing family medicine, look at underserved areas. i believe i read a post where someone had an over of $170k yearly salary and her debt of $270k was gonna be wiped out once she served 4years in a rural area. Maybe you can look for something similar.

flip26 said:

Attending the expensive med school, given your already high level of student debt, was the foolish part...on top of the foolishness of going deep into debt for undergrad, post bacc, and a worthless masters degree...

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Dude...come on.

MilkmanAl said:

Dude...come on.

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I'd like to hear from Attending Physicians and find out if the crushing debt is really a problem at 250k/year.

EdLongshanks said:

I'd like to hear from Attending Physicians and find out if the crushing debt is really a problem at 250k/year.

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Here are some quick calculations. From what I can tell malpractice insur can cost as much a fifth of gross income. So let's do some quick calculations.

I define a comfortable life as $90k take home pay in the cheaper parts of the country, or 150k in Colorado, CA, Penn, or Florida. (I'll leave out NY and NJ, since the wages are also out of wack in those states). Let's take someone who owes 400K after med school. Her payments over 10 years at 9% interest would be be 5k/month or 60k/year. She would therefore need a net pay of $150k to $210k per year. Then we add a fourth of this for malpractice ($190k to $265k) then add taxes of 30% of taxable income (30k to 40k) we get $180k to $300k.

Therefore making all of the worst assumptions. A new doctor with crushing student debt and in the most expensive parts of the country needs to make $300k / year. Apparently someone with that kind of debt needs to be a specialist.

On the other hand. The new student loan "income sensitive" rules say that you only have to pay 1/5 of your gross income over double the poverty rate. So let's redo the calcs.

If you make $170k/year gross, then the student loan payments would be $30k and malpractice $35k. Your taxes would be $30k . Giving a net income of $70k. This is not poverty, although it falls short of perfectly comfortable. One would want to live in cheaper parts of the country.

EDIT: I've edited these figures for the fact that both student loans repayments and malp. ins. are pre-tax.

Well, you could just do the arithmetic. Even if you have half a million bucks in debt, your 8.5% interest will be $42500 per year. That's plenty doable with $250k pre-tax income. Take an extra, say, $20k off for payments on principal, and you're left with ~$60k to do with as you please. Yeah, that doesn't allow the most glamorous lifestyle, but it's still plenty for a nice house, some investments, and some spending money. Serious problems would arise if you wanted to swing that much debt with less income, but for most of the specialties earning less are primary care and benefit from access to lots of loan forgiveness plans.

edit: Ninja post!

EdLongshanks said:

I'd like to hear from Attending Physicians and find out if the crushing debt is really a problem at 250k/year.

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Unfortunately, current attendings' debt picture won't accurately describe our and future physicians' debt picture. Most of the current attendings' (even the baby ones) debt load will be 1/2 and increasingly LESS THAN 1/2 of what you and I will be dealing with. If things keep going on like they are then I'll feel lucky when I hear young med students complaining of million dollar student loan debt when I'm an attending.

The reality is that many of us will be taking advantage of programs like IBR (Income based repayment) and will have the remainder of our principals cancelled after 25 years of 15% gross (above 150% of poverty) payments. Just make sure you save up enough money for the 75-100k tax payment in the final year, cuz debt cancellation is counted as income.

Or loan repayor programs or FAP or NHSC or whatever Congress decides in the future. There's also 10 year public service loan forgiveness too though the rules are vague and sketchy and Congress seems to be in no rush to clarify the rules or process because the first year of eligibility won't be until 2017.

My college friends who are physicians have been attendings for about 7 years. Even the ones who went to private med schools and completely financed their debt with loans racked up less than 150k in loans (vs. 250 - 400k for us) and have interest rates between 2-4% vs. the 6-8% we have.

So don't take current attendings debt picture as representative of your own. Crunch your individual numbers.

Here's a thread where I did just that for myself.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=598645&highlight=Somebody+talk+me+down

MilkmanAl said:

Well, you could just do the arithmetic. Even if you have half a million bucks in debt, your 8.5% interest will be $42500 per year. That's plenty doable with $250k pre-tax income. Take an extra, say, $20k off for payments on principal, and you're left with ~$60k to do with as you please. Yeah, that doesn't allow the most glamorous lifestyle, but it's still plenty for a nice house, some investments, and some spending money. Serious problems would arise if you wanted to swing that much debt with less income, but for most of the specialties earning less are primary care and benefit from access to lots of loan forgiveness plans.

edit: Ninja post!

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Yeah, that's kind of my feeling. I have yet to meet an American doctor with poverty problems.

akinetopsia said:

Can anyone beat top my beatboxing??

Just kidding.

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very funny. props.

EdLongshanks said:

Yeah, that's kind of my feeling. I have yet to meet an American doctor with poverty problems.

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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/tom.html

Is it not possible to come out of undergrad without debt anymore? I worked full-time during undergrad and graduated without debt.

I did borrow about ~$8000 over the course of three years of post-bac coursework, mostly because we had a mortgage/kids/new baby on the way. Living in poverty when you are single is one thing, deciding to have your children live in poverty is a lot harder to swallow.

deleted.

DrMidlife said:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/tom.html

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DrMidlife said:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/tom.html

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Alright. I'll admit. That's one poor doctor. I don't think med-school debt is his problem though. uhhh. Make that problems - plural

I agree that doctors do pretty well and have good job security. But the concerns about mounting debt loads ARE NOT just the whinings of overprivileged professionals. The debt has real consequences for physicians' families and the overall QUALITY and QUANTITY of healthcare in this country.

While there's the alarmist stereotype of the doctor being crushed by student debt and living in "poverty", the stereotype of the overprivileged whiny doctor complaining about student loan payments is equally useless and ridiculous.

Plus, I'd like to add that the 250k salary is a generous estimate even for many specialists, especially if you're interested in pediatrics.

ella, i've read your blog in the past...its inspired me. i've recently decided instead of pursuing dentistry (like i thought i wanted to) my real passion is public health, infectious disease, and possibly even tropical medicine. I'm currently finishing up my master's degree in biology, and i'm applying to MPH programs while i reroute my plans and study for the MCAT. I think its important to point out that life hands you situations you just can't predict. At 20, everyone thinks their life will fall right in line, undergrad, med school, house, kids, everything perfect, but that just doesn't happen for many people. I think its important for everyone to realize that debt sucks, but ultimately its a very small part of the overall picture of your life. I'll have a decent amt of debt (only about 60k as of now, after my first masters) and i will acquire much more, but its just money. I've done a lot of things, learned a lot of lessons, and hopefully i'll hit the rough patches in my life early on instead of later. This is probably the same for you. The only thing you can do is keep moving forward.

ella2013 said:

An ER doc (what I'd like to do... maybe) makes an average of say... $230k annually. My educational debt is $512k, or about 44% of my annual income.

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Ah the mythical tax free salary.

iloveDrStill said:

I don't mean to be a doom-and-glummer, but I think someone should point out-

There is no guarantee that you will be able to find a bank that will let you go that much in debt. It's up to the banks, not the government or the school, whether you can get a aggregate loan that big.

I'm sure you know that the stafford limit for health professionals is $224 (it varies a little from school to school, but not by the figures you're talking about). Applying for loans after that is based on credit score.

I own a decent house and car--as in I have both completely paid off, 100% mine, no mortgage--, no bankruptcy, etc, and I still had some trouble getting loans no where near what your asking for

You need to talk to a financial adviser NOW to get some advice. Fap, NHSC, these are all good options

I also don't understand- you mentioned that your parents can only help you with rent, but you own a house? So are you selling your house to move to Denver or whereever this school is? How much of the house (in $) do you actually have paid off?

good luck

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I worked in finance for a bit.

Once you are an MD it is pretty easy to get a loan because they know you will have income. Even at 100k per year, that is plenty to pay off student debt. It will just be harder to get other loans.

It will be easy to get the loan but the terms may not be the the borrower's liking. (Plus gov't backed student loans are non bankruptable, so that portion is easy to take a loan out on). The only thing they care about is your debt to income ratio, if you take 30 years to pay off they will be very happy.