Holistic medicine

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Myotis

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I was wondering what others on here thought of combining holistic treatments with western vet med. The vet I worked for in high school did a lot of holistic treatments (mostly acupuncture for arthritic animals). I personally stick to natural/holistic medicine for myself, unfortunately, there aren't as many resources out there for holistic treatments for animals. Of course, there are certain things that only western medicine can do, but for many things (eg. colds, allergies, headaches, acid reflux, etc) I find holistic treatments more effective (for me). Anyhow, I just thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss :)

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I've worked at an integrated clinic for over 6 years now, We have a vet who primarily only see's acupuncture appointments. We use flower essences, homeopathy, and chinese herbs when appropriate to supplement conventional therapies. I have seen many successful cases with alternative treatments when conventional therapies have failed but we usuall use these treatments as a supplement traditional medicine.

I actually brought this up in an interview and I don't know if it helped my chances of gaining admission or will ultimatly be the deciding factor against me. I don't know if all the interviewers/school are open to the idea of holistic treatments when they don't teach it :confused:

I'm interested in emergency and critical care so I don't think I could incoorporate it much, but it is something I would consider in the future if I venture away from emergency medicine.
 
One of the vets who used to be at my clinic did a lot of chiro and acupuncture work. That's really all I know about holistic medicine, though. Would love to learn more, even if it is just to know "the other side."

I -do- think in some ways we should take a more natural approach with our animals. I won't bring up nutrition and diet, since there's a thread on that, but does anyone else here think that we over vaccinate our animals? I do. I did puppy vaccines, 1 year vaccines, and 2 year vaccines on my dog, and now I'm not going to vaccinate for at least another three years on the core vaccines, and I'll probably run a bunch of titers on her.

Not trying to change the subject!
 
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I'm going to start a homeopathic clinic and call it "Placebos R Us." If an animal gets well, then my medicine did it. If it doesn't get well, then its the fault of western medicine for failing it.
 
While I don't disagree that homeopathy is scientifically questionable at best, we also don't know why the placebo effect works either.

Anywho, I like holistic medicine, particularly in nutrition, and as someone interested in both rehabilitation medicine and getting board certified in nutrition, I like some of the modalities a lot. The class IV cold laser is one of my newest favorites. I have very little exposure to acupuncture, but I think as an adjunct to pain management for things like post surgical cases and chronic pain, it is sure worth a try.
 
I am a believer in the hollistic medicine approach as well.. i worked at a wildlife rehabilitation clinic and chinese herbs were always used when our animals came in. while im not crazy about the whole balancing our Qi hypothesis some of the remedies really do seem to work. Four Gentlemen was our biggest herb we used that was to support the stomach and spleen used to increase appetite, improve digestion, and promote growth. Also Body Sore that moves stagnant Qi to decrease pain associated with bruising, swelling, pain and stuff. Like i said, not sure about the whole Qi thing but i sure did see a difference in some of those animals.. acupuncture also seemed to work very well on tortoises mainly cus they would sit there! I also always take Apis to help with insect bites/stings as i am quite allergic and it seems to work wonders.

i also said i was interested in this path of medicine while at my OSU interview and it didn't seem to hurt anything!
 
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I have not worked with a vet that does hollistic, etc. However, my Daschund became paralyzed in his mid-back area. The original prognosis was surgery, but I was referred to a vet that did acupuncture. The vet only does hollisitc medicine. This was a lot cheaper option than the surgery. We went to 3 treatments and he also did one laser treatment. I also followed at home with water therapy. After about 3 mos, my boy is about 95% of what he was prior to his paralysis. I have also worked with several equine vets in my area that set up clinics for acupuncture/chiropractic workshops. The clients always have good things to say about both. Again, I have not had the opportunity to go. At some point in my career I would like to go to the acupuncture certification. Here is a good website for it. I think it is becoming more accepted as it is become more successful and more vets are willing to try it. Also, if I remember correctly: while at the NC State-CVM open house, there was a table set up for hollistic medicine. Seems like the vet school must agree somewhat with it to have a table set up with info at it. I also believe that current students were answering questions at the table. Sumstorm may be able to clarify my memory with this one.

www.ivas.org
 
While I have not had work experience in Holistic Vet Medicine, I do appreciate it and I am eager to learn more about it. I think a balance of western and holistic is ideal. Crystal therapy is probably the only aspect I hear about where I can't keep a straight face. It's just too unknown for me and I haven't had exposure.
 
It is common enought that Vet economics had an article written by a conventional vet who had tried everything 'typical' to treat urinary incontinance in an older, but not ancient, dog. She was to the point of deciding whether or not to euthanize (young kids in the home, infant, angry husband, etc.) Then a fellow vet suggested she visit a vet accupuncturist, and there were improvements within 2 weeks and the dog was improved enough that euth went off the table. The article was written several years after the inital treatment and was suppose to be about haing sympathy for owners facing tough decisions that are viewed as 'convenience' but to me, it was more about tryng different options.

I have attended seminars on accupuncture here, including wetlabs, and every year a group of sudents head to china for a short cours in accupuncture. I currrently perform accupuncture on 2 of my dogs regularly (based on guidance from a vet on our staff) and I have seen improvements. I am using it as part of allergy management in one dog (also on allergy shots) and not sure how much it is helping him (husband who visits on weekends only and didn't know I was doing it has seen improvements, but I am less sure on him) and the other has anxiety issues outside of the house (in cars, on walks, at vets, at school, etc) and the imrpovement in him is drastic. IE we go from a dog that whines, sways on his feet, paces, shivers, etc to a dog who is mellowed out, alert but not panting, laying on his hip. For all know, the needles just distract him, but with those results, I don't really care about the 'why' as much as the 'does'...and the affect of having calm experiences in those environmets builds up positive associations, improving his next encounter with or without needles.

We have lectures, including in a careers class, about alternative meds, so there doesn't seem to be a huge stigma attached here (and people who think it is worthless don't speak out much.) As Oliveoyl mentioned, we have a very active holistic club.

I have mixed feelings on somethings, but I also believe a lot of health is how we handle life, so in most cases I wouldn't object to trying these things while continueing to monitor the patient.

As for vax, my understanding is that protocols have changed alot and many vax are on puppy + 1yr then 3yr cycles now. I do get nervous when I meet anti-vax folks (I do know folks who don't plan to do any vax at all, including rabies, ever.)
 
While I don't disagree that homeopathy is scientifically questionable at best, we also don't know why the placebo effect works either.

Very true... so I'm personally against using homeopathy unless I'm hoping for a placebo effect. It's true that it really can't hurt, so I don't see why anyone can't SUPPLEMENT it... but I wouldn't replace it with western meds unless the animal is already moribound and/or prognosis with western meds is poor at best (and not worth making the animal go through). I've seen people try to treat a parvo outbreak with "parvovirus 30C" and that pretty much resulted in >98% of the animals dying.

i don't know whatever it is about acupuncture that actually helps heal people/animals, but it happens quite often so i'm not against it. i know there have been quite a few sham acupuncture studies that had the same results as real acupuncture, and i find it super interesting. regardless, it seems to help people with chronic pain so i don't see why anyone should discredit that (even if the exact mechanism is still unknown).

i dunno much about chiropractics at all, but isn't it similar to physical therapy?
 
i don't know whatever it is about acupuncture that actually helps heal people/animals, but it happens quite often so i'm not against it. i know there have been quite a few sham acupuncture studies that had the same results as real acupuncture, and i find it super interesting. regardless, it seems to help people with chronic pain so i don't see why anyone should discredit that (even if the exact mechanism is still unknown).

i dunno much about chiropractics at all, but isn't it similar to physical therapy?


the sham studies that you have read, did they use acupressure or electrical stim at the same locations? I only ask because acupuncturists would say that the needles just enable greater precision and accuracy; the points would still be stimulated with pressure or elec, but with less precision and accuracy, which may or may not matter over time, dependent on the condition, recipient, etc.

chiro is joint/osteo manipulation. PT might involve some joint manipulation but in my experience chiro treats problems including soft tissue by correcting alignment in the body via the skeleton while PT works on developing muscles to support the body in a variety of ways.

From my younger days, I am a huge fan of ultrasonic therapy. It was amazing for my shin splints, but apparently is ineffective for most individuals.

As for parvo, I thought most of what western med did for that is supportive therapy as well. I admit, most of my experience with parvo involved shelter pups who were in a poorly set up shelter, and most of those were treated with parvaid (I think that is what it was called) an OTC treatment and had a ‘decent’ rate of success considering the environment /situation /etc (it was as good as the local clinic was getting) when dealing with whole litters. Whether it was that stuff or the natural vigor of some pups or what, I have no idea. But I wasn’t going to tell volunteers they couldn’t use something that wasn’t harmful if it made them (the volunteer) feel better. I did emphasize that treatments for humans might be toxic for dogs (willow bark tea.)

I have success with DAP and Feliway for some animals and not at all for others. I use slippery elm bark tea for my own strept throats Again, maybe it is placebo, but I went from twice yearly confirmed strept throats to not going to a doctor at all for strept and not experiencing the same symptoms. One thing I consider in some of this is that many medicines originated in organic materials; the other thing is changes in the environment kill a lot of things, so if you expose your epithelia to a slightly higher or lower pH, that change may be enough to damage the colonies of bacteria. When I was badly covered with Hog Weed (similar to poison ivy) I would spray the bad spots with water so hot I could barely stand it. I don’t know if the pain of the hot water numbed the area (brain tuned out firing neurons) or if it made epithelial cells leaky, allowing histamine to escape the area, or if it stimulated some pressure point, or altered some chemistry…..but in all honesty, I didn’t care, either (I was covered head to toe, including in my ears and mouth.) And some of this stuff may work on some but not others, just like some drugs aren’t effective in some people (cipro gives me severe hives.) I think some of it is just trial and error for an individual. And I do believe in the placebo affect. My dog has been in some serious pain (lost an eye) and would drive me nuts with whining, pawing, etc. I would give him an ‘extra’ dose…in other words an empty pill pocket. He would stop the whining, pawing, and sleep. We were both much happier.
 
I'm going to start a homeopathic clinic and call it "Placebos R Us." If an animal gets well, then my medicine did it. If it doesn't get well, then its the fault of western medicine for failing it.

:laugh:

To be short and sweet, that voodoo (as my boss calls it), from my experience seeing it in the clinic (I work in an area with a lot of granola's who like it) it works...when you're having a good day, the stars are aligned just right and it helps if you wear some feathers. As most others have said, it can't hurt as a supplemental treatment. However I don't think anyone should only offer holistic medicine.
 
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My kitty has horrible autoimmune issues that can be directly traced to vaccination. So 1) I do think we over-vaccinate. That doesn't mean I'm ready to stop vaccinating altogether, but I'm definitely in favor of vaccinating less and staggering them so that our pets aren't bombarded with multiple vaccines in a single vet visit.

2) Traditional medicine has done very little to help my kitty, but holistic medicine has done wonders. (And by holistic, I mean a balanced approach between traditional and alternative therapies, not a frou frou reliance on only alternative therapies--that's not, in my opinion, what holistic medicine is.)

3) My kitty's story, and my interest in holistic medicine, was the focus of my personal statement...and CSU still let me in! :)
 
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Something should be clarified in this thread: "Western medicine" is not "Western" medicine; it's just medicine. Science works. If holistic medicine worked, it wouldn't be called holistic, it would just be called medicine.

If aroma therapy, acupuncture, and flower essence (LOL) were medicine, then they would teach it in vet school -- to my knowledge they don't. A medical doctor has no business practicing nonsense on patients seeking medical treatment.

my humble two.
 
Writing off holistic treatments and natural remedies as a whole and referring to any observed benefits as merely "placebo effects" would be quote ignorant and counterproductive, in my opinion. I think we need to remain open to all avenues of treatment that could possible lead to increased health and welfare of animal patients.

I have personally utilized an herbal remedy called Tinkle Tonic one one of my cats and have brought this product up with pet owners that come by the clinic with animals suffering from chronic UTIs. While I would never recommending circumventing the traditional procedures for dealing with such a thing, I have no problem sharing my own success stories and experience with clients and directing them to such products if they like.

Tinkle Tonic! ;)
 
Something should be clarified in this thread: "Western medicine" is not "Western" medicine; it's just medicine. Science works. If holistic medicine worked, it wouldn't be called holistic, it would just be called medicine.

If aroma therapy, acupuncture, and flower essence (LOL) were medicine, then they would teach it in vet school -- to my knowledge they don't. A medical doctor has no business practicing nonsense on patients seeking medical treatment.

my humble two.

We have several professors at the vet school who teach about acupuncture and chiropractics. Although they aren't core courses, they are taught in electives.

I personally think that most holistic options do no harm and may help (and why not try it?). However, I am always wary of herbal remedies for a couple of reasons. They are not usually subject to the same scrutiny that drug companies like Pfizer are. This means that the active ingredient may or may not be there in the amount specified. This isn't always true, but it can be, and that concerns me. also, often the medicines prescribed are described as supplements or something like that. Most clients then don't realize that they need to disclose this to other vets (especially in emergency cases). This can cause drug interactions and be dangerous in certain situations.
 
Writing off holistic treatments and natural remedies as a whole and referring to any observed benefits as merely "placebo effects" would be quote ignorant and counterproductive, in my opinion. I think we need to remain open to all avenues of treatment that could possible lead to increased health and welfare of animal patients.

Do you feel this way about indigenous African people who believe the severed limbs of albino children have medicinal properties? source

Is it quite ignorant and counterproductive to write off the medical opinion of African witchdoctors who have observed benefits from the application of albino limbs?

The only way to fairly criticize these beliefs is with appeal to modern medical science. In doing so, we have to recognize there is no more reason to be sanguine about acupuncture then there is to be about albino limbs.

The "placebo effect", however, which you carelessly brushed off, is a well documented and understood phenomena.
 
Something should be clarified in this thread: "Western medicine" is not "Western" medicine; it's just medicine. Science works. If holistic medicine worked, it wouldn't be called holistic, it would just be called medicine.

If aroma therapy, acupuncture, and flower essence (LOL) were medicine, then they would teach it in vet school -- to my knowledge they don't. A medical doctor has no business practicing nonsense on patients seeking medical treatment.

my humble two.

Not that I'm a proponent of holistic medicine, but who's to say that "traditional" remedies have no basis on science? How many new drugs discovered have actually come from plants?

Just a VERY short list of plant-derived drugs:
- Atropine
- Codeine
- Colchicine
- L-Dopa
- Morphine
- Quinine (this is a big one)
 
Something should be clarified in this thread: "Western medicine" is not "Western" medicine; it's just medicine. Science works. If holistic medicine worked, it wouldn't be called holistic, it would just be called medicine.

If aroma therapy, acupuncture, and flower essence (LOL) were medicine, then they would teach it in vet school -- to my knowledge they don't. A medical doctor has no business practicing nonsense on patients seeking medical treatment.

my humble two.

I think you're maybe missing the point of a holistic approach. As per the American Holistic Medical Association:

"Holistic medicine is the art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors." [Emphasis mine.]

So, a holistic approach attempts to get beyond clinical symptoms to a deeper understanding of why an illness is present, then use whatever therapies might benefit the whole patient.

As to the distinction of "Western" medicine, try saying what you just said to a traditional Chinese medical doctor next time you have an attack of appendicitis while traveling the Yangtze... just because they don't teach about traditional Chinese medicine (or other therapies) in med/vet school doesn't mean they have no merit.

By the way, Narda Robinson at CSU put out an interesting paper about aromatherapy, and yes, it's real live science!
 
Do you feel this way about indigenous African people who believe the severed limbs of albino children have medicinal properties? source

Is it quite ignorant and counterproductive to write off the medical opinion of African witchdoctors who have observed benefits from the application of albino limbs?

The only way to fairly criticize these beliefs is with appeal to modern medical science. In doing so, we have to recognize there is no more reason to be sanguine about acupuncture then there is to be about albino limbs.

The "placebo effect", however, which you carelessly brushed off, is a well documented and understood phenomena.

I think it would be ignorant and counterproductive to write off anything that has displayed evidence of being an effective treatment. Not saying that I would embrace such practices. You still need to weigh additional characteristics such as side effects, ethical viewpoints, legalities, practicalities and such of the treatment. For me, severing limbs of children for their medicinal value would not comply with many of the requirements I would factor before implementation of such a practice. Giving a cat a few drops of a herbal remedy each day to help improve urinal tract health is another story.

And I am well aware of the placebo effect and its relevance to the study of medicine, thank you. Are you aware of the documented health benefits of herbs and other natural remedies, my friend?
 
iheartpandas said:
As to the distinction of "Western" medicine, try saying what you just said to a traditional Chinese medical doctor next time you have an attack of appendicitis while traveling the Yangtze... just because they don't teach about traditional Chinese medicine (or other therapies) in med/vet school doesn't mean they have no merit.

Do you feel this way about indigenous African people who believe the severed limbs of albino children have medicinal properties? source


and btw, I'm not misunderstanding the holistic approach. The fact that they include "spirit" in their definition of holistic confirms me in my belief that I understand very well what I'm criticizing.
 
Something should be clarified in this thread: "Western medicine" is not "Western" medicine; it's just medicine. Science works. If holistic medicine worked, it wouldn't be called holistic, it would just be called medicine.

If aroma therapy, acupuncture, and flower essence (LOL) were medicine, then they would teach it in vet school -- to my knowledge they don't. A medical doctor has no business practicing nonsense on patients seeking medical treatment.

my humble two.

from CSU's fall offerings: VM720 Alternative and Complementary Therapeutics

http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/cvmbs/CoursebookFall.pdf
 
Maybe one needs to be more specific when talking about these issues. After all, from my understanding there is quite a substantial difference between Holistic Medicine and other areas such as Alternative medicine and Natural Healing.
 
I think it would be ignorant and counterproductive to write off anything that has displayed evidence of being an effective treatment. Not saying that I would embrace such practices. You still need to weigh additional characteristics such as side effects, ethical viewpoints, legalities, practicalities and such of the treatment. For me, severing limbs of children for their medicinal value would not comply with many of the requirements I would factor before implementation of such a practice. Giving a cat a few drops of a herbal remedy each day to help improve urinal tract health is another story.

And I am well aware of the placebo effect and its relevance to the study of medicine, thank you. Are you aware of the documented health benefits of herbs and other natural remedies, my friend?

Foregoing any ethical or legal dilemma, are you're open to the possibility that the severed limbs of albino children can heal the sick?

And to answer your question: it depends what herbs you're talking about. Yes, a lot of organic compounds that are found in plants have medical value.

What herbs are in tinkle tonic? Show me the journal that confirms the medicinal property of those herbs and I'll agree the tinkle tonic probably works. Otherwise, what's stopping me from grinding up grass, calling it tinkle tonic, and selling it as a herbal remedy?
 
So, a holistic approach attempts to get beyond clinical symptoms to a deeper understanding of why an illness is present, then use whatever therapies might benefit the whole patient.

This would imply that normal medicine doesn't though which isn't true. When we give antibiotics we aren't treating the symtoms, we are treating the agent that resulted in the symptoms.

And when we only treat the symtoms its called "supportive care", usually when we have no treatment for the cause. (ie, parvo)
 
And I am well aware of the placebo effect and its relevance to the study of medicine, thank you. Are you aware of the documented health benefits of herbs and other natural remedies, my friend?

The point isn't that herbal supplements don't have any effect, because some can and do. But when herbal supplements aren't regulated in any way by the FDA, and they're often touted as able to treat things beyond their scope of effectiveness, you have a problem. Factor in that supplements often don't contain the plants they claim to on the label (and oftentimes are contaminated with other plants,) and that there's no way of controlling the amount of active ingredient in each pill (some harvested plants may contain way more active ingredients than others,) then you're setting yourself up for an unsafe situation.

I don't know about you, but I would rather take an aspirin (that is regulated, and I know exactly how much I'm getting) than willow bark (that could have anything else mixed in, and who knows how much you're actually getting.)
 
Foregoing any ethical or legal dilemma, are you're open to the possibility that the severed limbs of albino children can heal the sick?

And to answer your question: it depends what herbs you're talking about. Yes, a lot of organic compounds that are found in plants have medical value.

What herbs are in tinkle tonic? Show me the journal that confirms the medicinal property of those herbs and I'll agree the tinkle tonic probably works. Otherwise, what's stopping me from grinding up grass, calling it tinkle tonic, and selling it as a herbal remedy?

Yes, I am open to such a distinct possibility. Science and the world around us never ceases to amaze me.

Also, I don't think they teach about Tinkle Tonic in DVM programs. Therefore, according to your logic, such treatment is not worthy of discussion.

Nonetheless, I was able to locate a lost of the active ingredients online:

Active Ingredients: Couchgrass, Echinacea (purpurea), Marshmallow, Dandelion, and Horsetail.

And I really do not need your confirmation that it works. I have experimented with it on several animals with positive results. Please send me your ground up grass concoction and I will put it to the test.
 
the sham studies that you have read, did they use acupressure or electrical stim at the same locations? I only ask because acupuncturists would say that the needles just enable greater precision and accuracy; the points would still be stimulated with pressure or elec, but with less precision and accuracy, which may or may not matter over time, dependent on the condition, recipient, etc.

acupressure (i think if i'm reading that correctly. I'm pretty sure that the sham studies I read/glanced involved using something like a toothpick to poke people without actually breaking skin.

As for parvo, I thought most of what western med did for that is supportive therapy as well. I admit, most of my experience with parvo involved shelter pups who were in a poorly set up shelter, and most of those were treated with parvaid (I think that is what it was called) an OTC treatment and had a ‘decent’ rate of success considering the environment /situation /etc (it was as good as the local clinic was getting) when dealing with whole litters. Whether it was that stuff or the natural vigor of some pups or what, I have no idea. But I wasn’t going to tell volunteers they couldn’t use something that wasn’t harmful if it made them (the volunteer) feel better. I did emphasize that treatments for humans might be toxic for dogs (willow bark tea.)

Yeah for the most part, the only thing you can do is provide good supportive therapy and pray for the best. Though, I've read a couple of things about how Tamiflu had some promising results. I admit though, the last time I read about that was just a little after Tamiflu hit the human market, and there wasn't enough data to really conclusively say anything. BUT, there is a huge difference between a parvo case with supportive care (fluid therapy, painkillers, anti-inflammatories i think, etc...) vs. parvo case with nothing but parvaid and homeopathy. I've actually never seen an animal treated for parvo, since I've only been places where parvo=homeopath or parvo=euthanasia. But last time I checked (which was back in 2007), something like 90% of parvo animals die without any treatment, whereas at least 50% of animals survive with good supportive care. Don't quote me on that though, I simply got those numbers from the interwebs which may or may not have involved reputable sources.

just out of curiosity, how large a shelter were you at that treated litters of puppies with parvaid?

thanks for clarifying about chiro/acupuncture. i can't say i will ever be inclined to practice it myself, but it's pretty interesting stuff. i actually saw a documentary on zoo vets at the lincoln park zoo over the weekend, and they had a vet acupuncturist working on their camels. the only question i had after watching that was... why do these acupuncturist always seem to have to wear that attire? will it not work in scrubs? :confused:
 
The point isn't that herbal supplements don't have any effect, because some can and do. But when herbal supplements aren't regulated in any way by the FDA, and they're often touted as able to treat things beyond their scope of effectiveness, you have a problem. Factor in that supplements often don't contain the plants they claim to on the label (and oftentimes are contaminated with other plants,) and that there's no way of controlling the amount of active ingredient in each pill (some harvested plants may contain way more active ingredients than others,) then you're setting yourself up for an unsafe situation.

I don't know about you, but I would rather take an aspirin (that is regulated, and I know exactly how much I'm getting) than willow bark (that could have anything else mixed in, and who knows how much you're actually getting.)

I am not a biochemist nor a scientist of any sort. However, if a natural remedy is deemed safe and effective by a large constituency of users, I would surely consider utilizing it in treating my animals and would have no problem sharing my experiences with others.
 
Though, I've read a couple of things about how Tamiflu had some promising results. I admit though, the last time I read about that was just a little after Tamiflu hit the human market, and there wasn't enough data to really conclusively say anything.

When you get to vet school they will teach you in Immunology all ways Tamiflu isn't effective against parvo. ;)
 
Yes, I am open to such a distinct possibility. Science and the world around us never ceases to amaze me.

Are you really thinking through what you're saying here? Medical science understands a lot about anatomy and physiology. And we can say with fair certainly that there is nothing medicinal about the limbs of albino people. We know the biochemical composition of limbs.

Your attitude essentially takes us back 1500 years of medical progress: 'I'm open to anything. Even things that are absurd and contrary to modern knowledge. I'm open to witchcraft.'
 
Are you really thinking through what you're saying here? Medical science understands a lot about anatomy and physiology. And we can say with fair certainly that there is nothing medicinal about the limbs of albino people. We know the biochemical composition of limbs.

Your attitude essentially takes us back 1500 years of medical progress: 'I'm open to anything. Even things that are absurd and contrary to modern knowledge. I'm open to witchcraft.'

Quite the strawman argument there, my friend. I only said that I am open to any such possibilities and would consider embracing them if they fulfilled many qualifications. I was not referring to "cutting the limbs off of children". I was not even aware of such perceived benefits until you brought it up. I just cannot as readily dismiss the possible benefits of alternative and natural remedies as you seemingly are. Not even dragon tears and unicorn horns.
 
Even Dr. Susan Wynn (author of Veterinary Herbal Medicine) says that there aren't two separate worlds of medicine- there's just medicine that works, and everything else. We shouldn't be wholly accepting of all CAVM or completely reject it all, since the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. If you start looking for evidence-based medicine regarding CAVM modalities, you might be surprised... Like this:

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.70.11.1326?journalCode=ajvr
 
This would imply that normal medicine doesn't though which isn't true. When we give antibiotics we aren't treating the symtoms, we are treating the agent that resulted in the symptoms.

And when we only treat the symtoms its called "supportive care", usually when we have no treatment for the cause. (ie, parvo)

Yes, that's true, and I almost clarified that when I wrote it.
I have yet to meet a strictly traditional doc, though, that has attempted to get to the root of a problem as thoroughly as a holistic practitioner.

In your antibiotic example, a holistic practitioner would take it even beyond the "agent resulting in the symptoms" and look at what imbalance might have allowed the agent to gain a hold at all (immune system weakness, stress in the household, etc).

Even if someone doesn't call themselves "holistic," they can still be practicing this approach if they look at the whole person/animal--that is, ultimate causes in addition to proximate causes.
 
When you get to vet school they will teach you in Immunology all ways Tamiflu isn't effective against parvo. ;)

We also got that again this year in our infectious diseases course. Must be important or something.:rolleyes:

oooh, interesting how everyone goes hoo haw'in as soon as a new pharmaceutical hits the market. never actually looked into how tamiflu worked until now... haha, no wonder why they call it tami-FLU :idea:

my list of things NOT to have on hand in the event of parvo seems to grow all the time!
 
Do you feel this way about indigenous African people who believe the severed limbs of albino children have medicinal properties? source

and btw, I'm not misunderstanding the holistic approach. The fact that they include "spirit" in their definition of holistic confirms me in my belief that I understand very well what I'm criticizing.

You've used the albino children example several times now, and surely you recognize that it's a ridiculous statement. Even if albinos actually possessed a genetic mutation that, amazingly, gave their severed limbs the power to heal disease, killing one person for another person's gain is completely unethical. Perhaps you can think of a more rational example that actually contributes to the discussion, rather than attempting to use this ridiculous example to equate all alternative medical approaches to witchcraft?

Rather than blanketly criticize alternative approaches, maybe you should actually investigate them with a critical eye. As StealthDog pointed out, there is quite a body of evidence-based work addressing many alternative therapies.

Since you seem completely unwilling to accept the possibility that they may be valid, however, I would suggest that you begin formulating reasoned (and kind) statements to give to future clients when they ask you to use alternative approaches with their pets. I doubt they would appreciate your severed limb "argument."
 
I am not a biochemist nor a scientist of any sort. However, if a natural remedy is deemed safe and effective by a large constituency of users, I would surely consider utilizing it in treating my animals and would have no problem sharing my experiences with others.

Anecdotes are not data. A large portion of people thought ephedra was safe. A large number of people think that homeopathy works, despite the fact that studies show it has the same effect as a placebo. Without looking at studies proving the effectiveness of an herbal supplement, you have no way of knowing if there's an effective compound in there, or if its quackery, no matter how many satisfied users a product has. Then to compound the problem, you have absolutely no quality control on the product itself. You have no way of knowing that there's not lead or mercury or foxglove mixed into the bottle of echinacea you buy. You have no way of knowing which pharmaceutically active components are in an herbal supplement, or how they'll interact.
 
cowgirla-I totally agree that we over-vaccinate quite often, on animals and people.

I've been using herbal remedies for about two years now for myself, and I gotta say, it works for me, you can argue that it's a placebo effect all you want, and it may be, but I know how I feel and i know what's worked for me and what hasn't. The reason I brought this up with regard to animals is because my bird has been having digestive problems for a while now. The vet I take her to has tried multiple treatments on her to no avail, so I started researching alternative treatments and read about many cases of parrots with similar symptoms being treated successfully with an aloe vera detox treatment (I have used it myself with good results). I truly think there is something to be said about natural medicines. I started using it because "Western" medicine wasn't working for me, this has and I'm sticking to it, and I'm willing to try it on my animals (considering possible dangers and side effects first of course). I definitely don't think it should be written off for nothing
 
cowgirla-I totally agree that we over-vaccinate quite often, on animals and people.

Would love to hear this argument!

I agree on animals, but I seriously want to know your thoughts on human vaccinations that we overuse?
 
This might be a stupid question, but do animals experience the placebo effect at all? I've always thought it to be a strictly human thing since we associate medicine with healing and thus we can trick ourselves into thinking 'the meds are working' when all you're taking is sugar.

Animals, on the other hand, don't understand that the nasty tasting thing you hide in the treat is supposed to make you feel better, so I never really thought they would be capable of getting a placebo effect. It's not like they're saying "oh good, she prescribed me some meds so I'll feel better".

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but I don't have any reason to believe placebo effect has any bearing in holistic medicine in animals, so maybe any positive effects are truly real or just a stretch in the person's mind.
 
Here's what I found when looking it up the other day.
 
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but I don't have any reason to believe placebo effect has any bearing in holistic medicine in animals, so maybe any positive effects are truly real or just a stretch in the person's mind.

In my experience, it's not the placebo effect working on the animal, but on the owner. Fluffy has arthritis, Fluffy gets some homeopathic remedy, owner convinces him/herself that Fluffy isn't as stiff.
 
You've used the albino children example several times now, and surely you recognize that it's a ridiculous statement. Even if albinos actually possessed a genetic mutation that, amazingly, gave their severed limbs the power to heal disease, killing one person for another person's gain is completely unethical. Perhaps you can think of a more rational example that actually contributes to the discussion, rather than attempting to use this ridiculous example to equate all alternative medical approaches to witchcraft?

Rather than blanketly criticize alternative approaches, maybe you should actually investigate them with a critical eye. As StealthDog pointed out, there is quite a body of evidence-based work addressing many alternative therapies.

Since you seem completely unwilling to accept the possibility that they may be valid, however, I would suggest that you begin formulating reasoned (and kind) statements to give to future clients when they ask you to use alternative approaches with their pets. I doubt they would appreciate your severed limb "argument."

Not only have you misunderstood (and mis-characterized) my argument, but you've misunderstood the entire context of this discussion. Either you didn't read the discussion, or you read the discussion and you didn't understand it.

The point of the albino limb example is to show that belief without reason is not harmless. We have no reason (i.e. evidence) to believe in the efficacy of alternative medicine (herbs, essences, or witchcraft). It doesn't matter how many people profess firsthand experience with these remedies, the fact is that they are founded in failed science, unfalsifiable thesis's, and superstition.

I never imagined that someone would call my bluff and be receptive to the idea that albino limbs have medicinal property (touche' August West).

I'm open to any idea that is falsifiable and can be provided with good reason to believe it. I'm not interested in forming "kind" rebukes to people with terrible ideas about medicine. I believe, firmly, that bad ideas in the public sphere should be criticized. We should not cover our ears and turn our heads when future medical practitioners are expressing credulity to nonsense.
 
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i am very skeptical of any vet who only uses "natural, holistic" medicine. theres one in my area who doles out herbal remedies at ridiculous prices. the ingredients are not on the label- in fact, the only thing on the label is the animals name and how much of the stuff they get each day. she also had a long term client whos horse was suffering greatly and she refused to euthanize him. she doesnt carry euthanasia solution because she doesnt like to do perform them. i dont think any vet likes to euthanize an animal, but it is part of the job. this situation (among several others) left a very bad impression in my mind of holistic vet med.

enter in my horse fracturing her spine 2 years ago. she was pieced back together, but in pain. medication didnt help and it was time to start thinking about alternatives. a SA vet friend agreed to do acupuncture on my horse (he does it on his own horses) and see what happens. at this point, there was no harm in trying. after several months of treatments, my horse is almost completely pain free. maybe it was a total coincidence and she would have healed on her own in the same amount of time, but i really think it was the acupuncture. plus, my horse LOVES the vet who does the acupuncture and hates her regular vet. thats got to count for something, right? ;)

i guess my mind has been opened up to alternative medicine, however i am still very cautious about who is providing the veterinary service.
 
Not only have you misunderstood (and mis-characterized) my argument, but you've misunderstood the entire context of this discussion. Either you didn't read the discussion, or you read the discussion and you didn't understand it.

The point of the albino limb example is to show that belief without reason is not harmless. We have no reason (i.e. evidence) to believe in the efficacy of alternative medicine (herbs, essences, or witchcraft). It doesn't matter how many people profess firsthand experience with these remedies, the fact is that they are founded in failed science, unfalsifiable thesis's, and superstition.

I never imagined that someone would call my bluff and be receptive to the idea that albino limbs have medicinal property (touche' August West).

I'm open to any idea that is falsifiable and can be provided with good reason to believe it. I'm not interested in forming "kind" rebukes to people with terrible ideas about medicine. I believe, firmly, that bad ideas in the public sphere should be criticized. We should not cover our ears and turn our heads when future medical practitioners are expressing credulity to nonsense.

Clearly, your argument was far too erudite for me.

And I, for one, am not advocating anything other than evidence-based medicine: there is strong evidence for many (notice I did not say "all") "alternative" therapies. It is absurd to advocate evidence-based medicine, yet selectively ignore any evidence in support of "alternative" therapies.

The "alternative" therapies program at CSU, by the way, makes it very clear that its approach is evidence-based: http://csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/aboutus.htm
 
You've used the albino children example several times now, and surely you recognize that it's a ridiculous statement. Even if albinos actually possessed a genetic mutation that, amazingly, gave their severed limbs the power to heal disease, killing one person for another person's gain is completely unethical. Perhaps you can think of a more rational example that actually contributes to the discussion, rather than attempting to use this ridiculous example to equate all alternative medical approaches to witchcraft?

Rather than blanketly criticize alternative approaches, maybe you should actually investigate them with a critical eye. As StealthDog pointed out, there is quite a body of evidence-based work addressing many alternative therapies.

Since you seem completely unwilling to accept the possibility that they may be valid, however, I would suggest that you begin formulating reasoned (and kind) statements to give to future clients when they ask you to use alternative approaches with their pets. I doubt they would appreciate your severed limb "argument."

There you go! Making too much sense again! :cool:
If my vet brought up this absolutely ridiculous severed limb argument as a response to my asking if there was an alternative to surgically closing off my pet's ear canals, I would have excused myself and left. There are many instances where holistic is not an option and some instances where it could open your eyes to other ways of healing. While I do not have true experience in the varied disciplines of holistic medicine, restructuring my pet's diet (with the advice of a holistic vet who turned us on to a raw diet with herbs, supplements, etc.) has changed my dog's quality of life. She now runs, plays, bounces around, and believe me- this was a 180 for us to see. At the very least, I do not question holistic approaches to diet and some joint problems. I am open and eager to learn of the other realms too.
 
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