Academic probation = bye bye to US MD schools?

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Unepetitevoix

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I met an academic advisor today (who happens to have an MD), and I told her about my post-bac plan: to raise my 2.8 gpa to a 3.0 then apply to an SMP in order to get into a US MD school.

She said because there was two occasions where I got academic probation (due to me being sick) and a somewhat sporadically marred undergrad GPA, I just had absolutely no chance in a US MD school, even if I had a high MCAT, etc. And she also said that I would be wasting time with my plan on doing a post-bac and an SMP when I could just go to the Carribean.

But I hear a lot of success stories on these forums where people pick themselves up from their bad records of the past and make it to a US med school.

Is there some truth to what she's saying? Thoughts?

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I met an academic advisor today (who happens to have an MD), and I told her about my post-bac plan: to raise my 2.8 gpa to a 3.0 then apply to an SMP in order to get into a US MD school.

She said because there was two occasions where I got academic probation (due to me being sick) and a somewhat sporadically marred undergrad GPA, I just had absolutely no chance in a US MD school, even if I had a high MCAT, etc. And she also said that I would be wasting time with my plan on doing a post-bac and an SMP when I could just go to the Carribean.

But I hear a lot of success stories on these forums where people pick themselves up from their bad records of the past and make it to a US med school.

Is there some truth to what she's saying? Thoughts?

I think she was being overly harsh. But realize that you could be looking at a multi-year (ie 2-4 year) reclamation project where you continue your post-bacc (or SMP) getting nothing but A's and build ECs. You may have to apply multiple times. It could be a long road and each misstep could delay the process exponentially. But if you're willing to follow through, focus, and commit, I don't think getting into med school is out of the reach for most (assuming you have the ability to get A's and do decently on the MCAT).

I'd read some threads on the Caribbean to see the pros and cons of that route, because it certainly could get you in med school sooner. But it has it's risks and drawbacks.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.
 
I think she was being overly harsh. But realize that you could be looking at a multi-year (ie 2-4 year) reclamation project where you continue your post-bacc (or SMP) getting nothing but A's and build ECs. You may have to apply multiple times. It could be a long road and each misstep could delay the process exponentially. But if you're willing to follow through, focus, and commit, I don't think getting into med school is out of the reach for most (assuming you have the ability to get A's and do decently on the MCAT).

I'd read some threads on the Caribbean to see the pros and cons of that route, because it certainly could get you in med school sooner. But it has it's risks and drawbacks.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

I agree 100%. I graduated with a 2.5 cUGPA, 2.2 Science GPA, and had a 28Q MCAT. And after 3 attempts, and 3 years of progress (good graduate GPA, 30+ MCAT, great research + clinical experiences, recent committee letter) I received 2 interview invites from EXCELLENT schools (if you adhere to US News rankings), and I'm hopeful about getting in somewhere in the US this year. It's possible, but the uncertain journey will DRAIN you! Even though nothing's promised to me, I'm still pretty excited to come so close in the face of 3.7 GPA's and 35 MCATs. The carribbean for me if things don't work out this time around (my MCAT would have expired, and I definitely don't have another one in me!) Best of luck!
 
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Good advice so far. Speaking as someone who nearly went the Caribbean route (was caught up on my age) its worth staying around if at all possible. I agree you have a long road to getting in, but it can be done. There are some serious risks and road blocks (not unable to be overcome) going the Caribbean route.
 
The one thing to remember about academic advisors - they are not doctors and have never been to medical school nor have they ever been through the process. Take their advice with a grain of salt - really.

I was on academic probation a number of times throughout my undergrad. Got married young, was an abused wife, struggled with classes, etc. I took most courses at least 4 times - chem, bio, physics, trig, calc. My first MCAT score was 16. Took me 7 years to get my bachelor's, undergrad GPA was 2.7. Had a few D's, F's and lots of C's.

When I finished my bachelor's I took a break, was majorly burnt out. Lots of domestic issues with my husband, had kids, etc. Went back and did a one year post-bacc 3 years later and took all the pre-req's in one year that I needed to improve. Physics, Biochem, Orgo I, Orgo II, Orgo lab, Chem 105, Chem 106. Plus I worked a 32 hour week in the hospital so my medical experience was great since I did patient care. Came out of that post bac year with a 3.8. Took the MCAT again 3 years in a row. Applied 3 years in a row before getting acceptance.

Took the advice of my doctor friends, left my lousy academic advisor in the dust and never ever listened to negativity again - it really bogs you down.

Be sure to apply super early - the day it opens. Have a great story for your essay. Be realistic where you apply. Don't apply IVY league with average scores. Know that you probably won't have your pick of schools and if you get a yes, that's where you go. Climbing the mountain of past bad grades does not give you license to be picky. Expect to move and plan for that. Have good credit and be sure you will be able to pass a background check.

Good Luck.
 
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The one thing to remember about academic advisors - they are not doctors and have never been to medical school nor have they ever been through the process. Take their advice with a grain of salt - really.

I was on academic probation a number of times throughout my undergrad. Got married young, abused wife, struggled with classes, etc. I took most courses at least 4 times - chem, bio, physics, trig, calc. My first MCAT score was 16. Took me 7 years to get my bachelor's, undergrad GPA was 2.7. Had a few D's, F's and lots of C's.

When I finished my bachelor's I took a break, was majorly burnt out. Lots of domestic issues, had kids, etc. Went back and did a one year post-bacc 3 years later and took all the pre-req's in one year that I needed to improve. Physics, Biochem, Orgo I, Orgo II, Orgo lab, Chem 105, Chem 106. Plus I worked a 32 hour week in the hospital so my medical experience was great since I did patient care. Came out of that post bac year with a 3.8. Took the MCAT again 3 years in a row. Applied 3 years in a row before getting acceptance.

Took the advice of my doctor friends, left my lousy academic advisor in the dust and never ever listened to negativity again - it really bogs you down.

Be sure to apply super early - the day it opens. Have a great story for your essay. Be realistic where you apply. Don't apply IVY league with average scores. Know that you probably won't have your pick of schools and if you get a yes, that's where you so. Climbing the mountain of past bad grades do not give you license to be picky. Expect to move and plan for that. Have good credit and be sure you will be able to pass a background check.

Good Luck.
OP specifically stated this person has an MD

and I hope to God you have your "domestic issues" sorted out, because a wife-beater should NOT be taking care of other people. NO excuse for this EVER.


Back to the OP: don't be afraid to look into DO and go the grade-replacement route. You can make progress on your GPA very quickly if you are replacing D's & F's with A's.
 
Well, I don't know personally. I don't think you're out of the running. In the fall of 2006 I went back for a semester to get a second degree (read: job skills), but a variety of things manifested, most of which were work related, that prevented me from going to class and having the free time to tend to school work outside of class. As a result, I got some very bad grades that semester. Bear in mind I graduated from college three years before that, and I had a good GPA then, but it was lowered with that 15 hours of crap. I don't hold a grudge or anything, and sure it's a blackmark, but to get where I need to get I have to look past it.
 
OP specifically stated this person has an MD

and I hope to God you have your "domestic issues" sorted out, because a wife-beater should NOT be taking care of other people. NO excuse for this EVER.

Pretty sure she was saying she was an abused wife.

OP - You have a long, tough road ahead of you to get into a US MD school. It's not as easy as it seems. Do some research and see what is ahead of you. Yes, people get in with lower stats, but they are the exception. The academic probation is going to be a big red flag for many schools. Having more than one shows a pattern. Fair or not, many schools will not look past that point.

You probably have 3-4 years of work before you are ready to apply to US MD schools, with no guarantee that you will get in. The advisor was probably trying to tell you it's not worth it.

Only you can make that decision, but just make sure you are aware of the work that is ahead of you.

:luck:
 
OP specifically stated this person has an MD

and I hope to God you have your "domestic issues" sorted out, because a wife-beater should NOT be taking care of other people. NO excuse for this EVER.


Back to the OP: don't be afraid to look into DO and go the grade-replacement route. You can make progress on your GPA very quickly if you are replacing D's & F's with A's.

Just to clarify, I was the abused wife and got out. I was NOT the abuser. Had my husband arrested. Been divorced from him 10 years. I agree, there is no excuse to ever hit anyone. Fixed my original post so that is clear.


LECOM class 2006
 
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Just a quick question; sorry to derail a bit OP.

In my situation, I had a 1.74 cGPA as a freshman in undergrad and was on probation for a few semesters. I was actually dropped from the university at the end of freshman year, but successfully appealed due to medical reasons being part of the reason for my grades.

However, since then (I'm a senior in undergrad now), I have successfully brought my cGPA up to a 3.48 after 5 semesters of 20+ credit hours per semester and pretty much 4.0s every semester. I have also done well on the MCAT (a 35). Would the fact that I was on academic probation and that I was dropped from the university (though I successfully appealed) significantly hurt my chances? I have worked my @$$ off over the past 2.5 years and I feel I have shown a significant change, have a huge upward trend, etc. So, I'm hoping this would work out fine when I apply this coming cycle.
 
I was on academic probation for a semester, got off of it, finished up my undergrad degree and am now at a DO school. I applied with a 2.6 gpa due to failing a bunch of classes early on. I had a 3.7 for my last 60 hours of undergrad which were mostly upper level bio and chem classes. I figured out that I would need to take 130 more credits at straight A's to make my gpa come to a 3.0. How many credits do you have? If you have over 150, it may take a long time to get your gpa up to a 3.0. Nothing is impossible though. Are you in a state that favors in-state applicants? I was considered a resident of two states that only had 1 state medical school in them so they took a significant majority of their students from in state. Had my gpa been at least a half point higher, I'm sure I would've been a better shot to get in. I was also guaranteed interviews at both schools since they considered me in state
 
I met an academic advisor today (who happens to have an MD), and I told her about my post-bac plan: to raise my 2.8 gpa to a 3.0 then apply to an SMP in order to get into a US MD school.

She said because there was two occasions where I got academic probation (due to me being sick) and a somewhat sporadically marred undergrad GPA, I just had absolutely no chance in a US MD school, even if I had a high MCAT, etc. And she also said that I would be wasting time with my plan on doing a post-bac and an SMP when I could just go to the Carribean.

But I hear a lot of success stories on these forums where people pick themselves up from their bad records of the past and make it to a US med school.

Is there some truth to what she's saying? Thoughts?


Of course there is some truth in what she is saying. So? How bad do you want it and why? You are looking at a lot of work, stress, money, and time. And there is always risk.

But do you know what happens if you don't try, even if you really want it and for all the right reasons?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . NOTHING. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

So you can make a plan, put your hand to the plow, focus hard on what needs to be done, and don't look back. . . .or

. . . . you be controlled by someone else's predeterminations, even if there is some serious reality in what they are saying.

You don't need that person to tell the risks and stats about getting into an allopathic US school. You can do the research for yourself. Some people with great applications don't make it in for whatever reasons.

If people look in great detail only at the stats behind various kinds of cancer treatments and long-term remission and the hell that many of these treatments involve, they may not even try. And sometimes that may be the best course of action for a person.
But one thing that moves people is that four-letter word called HOPE. She can't say you have no chance. She can tell you that statisticallly it is problematic.

What does that have to do with you IF you are willing to look at the hard realities and push forward with all you got?


Think this through, b/c it's a huge, costly, stressful, and even painful at times. It's something long and rough that you have to commit to, and even with hard work, there is a risk factor involved.

This is precisely why people MUST do research and then they need to get a clear fix on what their motivation for going into medicine is. After that, they need to do their best to measure this against the total realities.


In the end, it's up to you. If you don't make it and you really want it and tried with all your might, then OK, you might have to face that it's possibly not the right path for you. But how will you ever know that if you don't get busy working a realistic, feasible plan for yourself and take it step by step.

If you have some money, perhaps consult with someone like Judy Colwell, if you are truly dedicated to this path. If she isn't taking new clients, see if she can refer you to some other reputable consultant.

Finally, listening to people--getting some good advisors can be very helpful, and we all have to have humble, teachable spirits. But at the end of the day, only you know what, who, and the whys of what is within you. But if you struggle after trying your absolute best, academically speaking, you will also have to be very realistic. I know one high school student who is nice and bright in her own way. But her ability to comprehend things in an indepth fashion is quite limited. On top of that she has absolutely NO discipline. She thinks her so called "desire" alone is going to get her into medical school. She is sweet, but she is utterly clueless. It would be better for her to either really figure out what is causing her problems with comprehension and then work on developing discipline and doing better in college than she did in high school, or she needs to re-think career choices.

If you know you have the intellectual stamina and acumen and have the discipline as well, yes you can overcome your past, and you do have a shot.

Look within first. Then get some second opinions from highly recommended, reputable people. After that, start taking some courses, and even take some higher math courses. If you can get your GPA up to 3.3 and can get a high enough GRE, you may well be able to gain entrance into some good formal post-bac programs. OTOH you may be able to take the pre-reqs at a university and then apply to an SMP.

Do the research and soul-searching, and then consult with reputable people. Watch who you listen to. Every person's situation is unique, even if the basic requirement are statistically what they are. You can change this. It just might take a while and it will take nothing less than high grades.

Good luck.
 
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Wow! I definitely got a lot of good advice, and am grateful for the range of perspectives and opinions on these forums, from the very inspirational, to the realistic.

The one thing to remember about academic advisors - they are not doctors and have never been to medical school nor have they ever been through the process. Take their advice with a grain of salt - really.

This woman was in fact a doctor working part time as a school counselor. I think she wasn't very familiar with SMPs or many other structured post-bacs (though she knew that SMPs did have a higher success rate). She thought it was odd my plan was to raise my GPA up to a 3.0 (which, would take me 57 quarter units to do; a 3.2 would be 80 quarter units..approximately 1 to 2 years, respectively) and THEN apply to an SMP, and to her, it seemed like a lot of work I'd be putting myself through, as well as a lot of debt, etc.

OP - You have a long, tough road ahead of you to get into a US MD school. It's not as easy as it seems. Do some research and see what is ahead of you. Yes, people get in with lower stats, but they are the exception. The academic probation is going to be a big red flag for many schools. Having more than one shows a pattern. Fair or not, many schools will not look past that point.

You probably have 3-4 years of work before you are ready to apply to US MD schools, with no guarantee that you will get in. The advisor was probably trying to tell you it's not worth it.

I think this was her point: to convey that I'd be putting myself through more trying to attain the goal of going to a US Med school versus getting an MD going to the Carribbean, which was a more realistic and attainable goal. Carribean is still an idea I'm warming up to, because my cousin did his medical training in the Carribean and in Poland, and can not pass his USMLE.

So here's a little bit about my situation, if you wanted to know more...

I was never a good student, but knew I was intelligent. College was plagued by a lot of challenges. I had to finance my education, so I always had to work during college (my dad got laid off but because of his former income bracket, I couldn't get aid). I got major depression and a separate chronic illness. On top of all of this, towards the end of college, I finally found out why I was always a horrible student: I've had undiagnosed ADHD and a learning disability my whole life. (Which, I still am unsure what my potential could be). I was one of those students who was both capable of getting As in classes without trying, and never got an F, even when I was too sick to go to class for 7 weeks. I feel like I never learned how to properly study. But once the classes got more demanding, I couldn't dedicate myself as much to them -- because of my own distractibility, because of my other illnesses, and because I had other commitments.

Ever since graduating, I've been taking a break and just working (I work for Cancer Clinical Trials and am also doing hospital volunteering), but I feel like I'm stuck in limbo until I can go back to school and actually be successful at school. I thought being pre-med again was way out of my league until I found online stories like these forums. Those, along with really loving hospital volunteering and admiring the works that our oncologists do, really got me more interested in doing pre-med, and working towards it.

But as I'm finding out from the counselor and like gman33 said, those seem to be the exceptions, even if they do happen.

So on the brink of attending school -- the one thing I need to start on in order to really work towards this -- and dropping a whole bunch of money to pursue this dream which offers marginal chances of success, I'm just debating if my dreams are shot already.

I realize there are realities I need to keep in mind: that it is competitive even for those with perfect records, and that I need to figure out how to consistently get As and how to best study. That it's a long and expensive road, and that it's up to me to assess if the risk is worth the benefit.


But one thing that moves people is that four-letter word called HOPE. She can't say you have no chance. She can tell you that statisticallly it is problematic.

What does that have to do with you IF you are willing to look at the hard realities and push forward with all you got?

I think that's the big question is if I have the stamina to try to beat the odds against me, even if it means falling a lot.
 
Just to clarify, I was the abused wife and got out. I was NOT the abuser. Had my husband arrested. Been divorced from him 10 years. I agree, there is no excuse to ever hit anyone. Fixed my original post so that is clear.


LECOM class 2006

I am SO SORRY I misread that. I was wondering why anyone would post it.

Good for you for getting out and getting help, I know it sounds trite but what can I say...

Again, apologies
 
Anything is possible in life. There are no absolutes! I personally was placed on academic probation, and I was ultimately academically dismissed from the same school. I have multiple acceptances, but it took me several years to make up for my youthful academic indiscretions. Have a sound and realistic plan, and follow through on it. Also have a lot of faith, and do not let life get in the way! Best of luck!!!
 
Hey OP,

I hope this helps a bit...

In my first year of undergrad I achieved an awesome 0.7 GPA. The following summer I got a letter saying I was on academic probation and I would get kicked out of my state college (mid-tier) if I did not achieve a 3.9 the following semester. I had no real explanation for my terrible performance that year - except partying/drinking too much :D.

It took me a while to recover from my freshman year. I ended up with 2 bachelor degrees (physics, chem), a 3.4 overall GPA, and a degree from an SMP. After all of that, I was finally comfortable with applying to US allopathic med schools. I was pretty nervous about applying, especially after reading posts on this site.

There was absolutely nothing outstanding about my application. I went to an average school, got a 32 on my MCAT, and no real research or extensive volunteering. I was actually going to wait another year to apply, it was only after my parents' and girlfriends' insistence that I submitted my applications - the last week before the deadline, and only to 5 schools (all US allo).

I thought I was doomed. If you read the posts on this site you know that applying late is the "kiss of death", more so if you're applying to only 5 schools. If I remember correctly, I submitted my secondaries sometime in late December/January.

To my surprise I received 5 interviews, all scheduled in March. I ended up getting into 4 of the schools right off the bat, and into my first choice off the wait-list that summer.

I am currently in the 1 month break in-between med school graduation and the start of my internship. I remember how I felt when I was in your position, thinking I had no chance at an allopathic US med school. Just apply when your ready, be nice on your interviews, and see what happens. I hope that makes sense (probably still drinking too much) :D.
 
OP-

I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if I repeat myself. I will go a bit off from what I've seen and say that your advisor is correct to a certain point. If you work on getting a 3.0 right now and then the SMP, you probably will not have very good chances for acceptance. However, if you approach this from another point of view, you can maximize your chances. Maybe you should try to do a year of volunteer work through "teach for America" or the Peace Corp or something like that. Use that experience to your advantage for a future application. Do the classes you need to get a 3.0+ while working some kind of lab job or something related to the field of medicine. Then do your SMP. This way you'll show maturity and commitment beyond textbooks to the committee. If you go straight from school to more school and then more school, it will just appear as if you weren't good enough the first time around. A man/woman with some life experience under their belt usually gets more favorable recognition despite some iffy spots here and there.
 
I was pretty nervous about applying, especially after reading posts on this site.

I think that we sometimes forget that this site is mostly Student Doctor Neurotics and that the posters here are usually the overachievers.
 
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