ESI injectate (steroid)

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specepic

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For a change not a thread about TFESIs and complications

I'm right out of fellowship where we used Triam 80 mg (2ml) for ILESI's. The pharmacist at my new hospital is questioning this in that "Triam does not come preservative free". Prior pain doc used preserv free Celestone.

Planning on using dex for tfesi's

Thoughts on triam and preservatives? Have you read the label if you use it?

Thx!

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Yes it does! I use a preservative free version of it. It's called Triesence. The non preservative free preparation has benzyl alcohol which can be neurotoxic at higher doses and increases the likelihood of an allergic rxn. However, I'm sure millions of ESIs have been done around the country w/ the preservative containing preparation with no ill effects. My question is depomedrol. I use single dose vials (green cap) but the insert says it has polyethylene glycol. Anyone got this preservative free?
 
Polyethylene glycol is neither neurotoxic, nor is it a preservative. It is a dispersal agent for maintenance of the suspension. The carboxymethyl cellulose in triamcinolone (Kenalog) largely serves the same function- to prevent excess clumping after suspension formation. Polyethylene glycol (GoLytely, Miralax) is frequently used in medications and cosmetics, and contains only 2 alcohol groups. Misinformed individuals (ala Burton, the surgeon, who has screamed all over the internet about PEG being antifreeze and neurotoxic- WRONG...) failed to read the neuroprotective and neuroregenerative properties of PEG. Apparently Burton, not a chemist, may not know the difference between polyethylene glycol and ethylene glycol, two vastly different chemicals with very different properties.
How do I know these things? Before I became a physician I was a polymer and surface chemist.
 
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Polyethylene glycol is neither neurotoxic, nor is it a preservative. It is a dispersal agent for maintenance of the suspension. The carboxymethyl cellulose in triamcinolone (Kenalog) largely serves the same function- to prevent excess clumping after suspension formation. Polyethylene glycol (GoLytely, Miralax) is frequently used in medications and cosmetics, and contains only 2 alcohol groups. Misinformed individuals (ala Burton, the surgeon, who has screamed all over the internet about PEG being antifreeze and neurotoxic- WRONG...) failed to read the neuroprotective and neuroregenerative properties of PEG. Apparently Burton, not a chemist, may not know the difference between polyethylene glycol and ethylene glycol, two vastly different chemicals with very different properties.
How do I know these things? Before I became a physician I was a polymer and surface chemist.

kick-ass, algos. well done
 
I had an interesting case this month that relates to the preservative topic at hand.

Patients comes back to clinic with new cervical issues. I previously did two lumbar epidurals on her using my usual preservative free triamcinolone which she tolerated well and she improved clinically. After she comes back to clinic, I do another epidural(but cervical this time) in the office with the same meds, no problems, and she gets modest relief. Plan is made for one more epidural which due to office scheduling issues, gets added to the surgery center I recently starting doing some cases at. I do the exact same procedure, same prep, same meds other than regular triamcinolone (with preservative) and a couple minutes after the steroid is injected she developed anaphylaxis which required epi and she almost needed to be intubated.

The steroid preservatives may only cause problems with a very small percentage of patients, but I believe any complication you can prevent in advance is well worth the effort.
 
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Bedrock excellent example of why to use preservative free preparations

Algosdoc, you know way more about this than me. I love this forum bc I learn something new every time I get on here. I do agree PEG is a vehicle and not a true preservative. Benzon authored an article demonstrating that high doses of PEG can decrease the compound action potential, however I believe this was at supratherapeutic doses not encountered in clinical practice. With that being said, depomedrol has been associated with arachnoiditis and sterile meningitis after IT injection which I believe is thought to be due to the PEG although no one probably really knows. Here's a question for ya, I use the single dose vials of depomedrol. Since PEG is the only chemical I recognize on the insert, is it safe to assume these are actually preservative free vials?? Any idea?
 
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Actually, even single dose vials of depomedrol are not preservative free, although they are labeled that way. The FDA defines preservatives as agents to prevent bacterial/fungal growth and the list of approved preservatives for use in drugs in the US contains Benzalkonium chloride 0.02%, Benzethonium chloride 0.01%, Benzyl alcohol 0.75-5%, Chlorobutanol 0.25-0.5%, m-cresol 0.1-0.3%, Myristyl gamma-picolinium chloride 0.0195-0.169%, Paraben methyl 0.05-0.18%, Paraben propyl 0.01-0.1%, Phenol 0.2-0.5%,2-Phenoxyethanol0.50%, Phenyl mercuric nitrate 0.001%, and Thimerosal 0.003-0.01%. Depomedrol single dose contains Myristyl gamma-picolinium chloride, so even though the doses are low, contains a preservative.
Older formulations of depomedrol had a different formulation, and the case reports of arachnoiditis in the 70s, esp in Oz, may have been due to other preservatives or due to bacterial contamination, or due to contaminants in the PEG (some of the older forms of PEG had significant toxin impurities). In modern times, the incidence is much less with epidural administration, but it is not clear whether this is due to improved product or improved delivery accuracy. As for myristyl gamma picolinium chloride, there are no specific neurotoxcity studies I could find with the exception of rabbit retinal damage that occurs at twice or more the concentration of the chemical found in depomedrol. Most damage occurred only at 8 times the concentration in depomedrol. However, contact dermatitis and suppression of cartilage and synovial membrane glycosaminoglycan synthesis have also been demonstrated from this chemical. When given intraperitoneally and SC in rats in high concentrations, the drug is moderately toxic, but again these concentrations are orders of magnitude above that administered into the human epidural space.
 
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Actually, even single dose vials of depomedrol are not preservative free, although they are labeled that way. The FDA defines preservatives as agents to prevent bacterial/fungal growth and the list of approved preservatives for use in drugs in the US contains Benzalkonium chloride 0.02%, Benzethonium chloride 0.01%, Benzyl alcohol 0.75-5%, Chlorobutanol 0.25-0.5%, m-cresol 0.1-0.3%, Myristyl gamma-picolinium chloride 0.0195-0.169%, Paraben methyl 0.05-0.18%, Paraben propyl 0.01-0.1%, Phenol 0.2-0.5%,2-Phenoxyethanol0.50%, Phenyl mercuric nitrate 0.001%, and Thimerosal 0.003-0.01%. Depomedrol single dose contains Myristyl gamma-picolinium chloride, so even though the doses are low, contains a preservative.
Older formulations of depomedrol had a different formulation, and the case reports of arachnoiditis in the 70s, esp in Oz, may have been due to other preservatives or due to bacterial contamination, or due to contaminants in the PEG (some of the older forms of PEG had significant toxin impurities). In modern times, the incidence is much less with epidural administration, but it is not clear whether this is due to improved product or improved delivery accuracy. As for myristyl gamma picolinium chloride, there are no specific neurotoxcity studies I could find with the exception of rabbit retinal damage that occurs at twice or more the concentration of the chemical found in depomedrol. Most damage occurred only at 8 times the concentration in depomedrol. However, contact dermatitis and suppression of cartilage and synovial membrane glycosaminoglycan synthesis have also been demonstrated from this chemical. When given intraperitoneally and SC in rats in high concentrations, the drug is moderately toxic, but again these concentrations are orders of magnitude above that administered into the human epidural space.

Wow, that's good stuff. Thanks for the info Algosdoc! My head hurts....
 
so bottomline: what is wrong w/ me using Kenalog...?
 
What dose do you use per level, and what max dose per encounter? Any difference in relief profiles of Betameth vs Triamcinolone that you have seen in clinical practice?
 
I recently saw a patient who had Depo medrol 120 mg over three levels. A follow-up second block used Kenalog 80 mg divided over the same three levels.

First block yielded 24 hours of analgesia

Second block yielded 3 weeks of analgesia (that was the date of the f/u day, it might persist longer) but c/o flare of rosacea, hot flashes, night sweats. Although the pain was gone for much longer, the hormonal side effects were much worse than the pain.

I think the interval was a couple of months between the injections.
 
I recently switched from Kenalog to Depo-medrol and feel like I havent been getting the same type of results. Have others noted this as well?
 
I recently switched from Kenalog to Depo-medrol and feel like I havent been getting the same type of results. Have others noted this as well?

In fellowship I used Kenalog and would routinely have much longer-lasting results than I have seen in PP where my group uses Depomedrol.

I'd be interested in hearing about Keanalog vs Betamethasone.
 
I switched from kenalog to celestone about 6 months ago. I felt that duration of benefit with celestone was less, so I switched back to kenalog. The only study I could find comparing the two was the following:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14573415
 
I emailed one of my prior attendings who was a pharmacist prior to pain doc and he confirmed we were using standard 'intraarticular' Kenalog for ESI (ILESI) and SIJ. We used DEx for all tfesi btw. I'm currebtky using preservative free Celestone b/c that is what the last pain doc used. I'm using 2 ml's (12mg). Will use Kenalog too when stocked.

Correct me is I'm wrong but celestone should have the longest duration of action (recall this from a chart in the pmr pocketpedia).

Do any of you use local in your ILESI's. I recall an attending who would do 0.5% lido for hot radics. I did this the other day and the pt got a fantastic response.
 
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