PharmD/PhD

Make the most of your gap year with our MSPN program.
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
veyep

veyep

Got Books?
Lifetime Donor
Verified Member
15+ Year Member
Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
473
Reaction score
15
does anyone know of PharmD/PhD programs? would you do it?
Members don't see this ad.
 
I think the question is would YOU do it?

Personally I wouldn't because I feel like I have no use for a PhD. I don't want to teach and I don't really want to write research papers all my life.
 
Beet Pharmer said:
I think the question is would YOU do it?

Personally I wouldn't because I feel like I have no use for a PhD. I don't want to teach and I don't really want to write research papers all my life.
Click to expand...

I would not either :D But since there are so many pharmacy schools, I wonder if they would start offering this program to make themself stand out!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Eh, doubt it's for me. Teaching might be interesting, but considering I've never been exposed to actual teaching experience, I have no idea if it would be worthwhile. If it comes to that, it's not like PharmDs can't teach or anything...
 
I would do it. My reasons are:
1) Getting faculty teaching position is a life career. You won't be easily replaced. A few of my teachers have been here for 20 years or more. I can't speak for every body but this is my general observation.

2) There is a (secret) high demand for faculty at pharmacy schools, especially in the area of pharmaceutical science.

3) Hours are flexible. You get paid less but job is more stable. For me, I enjoy doing research in my own time. The only stress that you may have is getting grant which I found none of my teachers have problem with that. I have 2 research papers going to publish in a few months. Planing to purse Ph.D in pharmaceutics which my school is offering.

3) Definitely open more doors to industry, another area where without a Ph.D you will have difficult to get into.

4) Retail jobs and even clinical positions are not going nowhere. Hospitals won't have enough money to afford more $100k pharmacists. Retails are not going to hire more pharmacists for the sake of expansion. They will find other means. You are pharmacist, you know more than me about this.

Hope these balance opinions,
 
I'd do it. The more degrees the better. This would just help if you wanted to work in Big Pharma research(maybe some Biotech) though. MD/PHD would open more roads. Any PHD is basically research, teaching, or sitting as an exec for a Pharma company :rolleyes: ( :laugh: )
 
ChemistWiz said:
I'd do it. The more degrees the better. This would just help if you wanted to work in Big Pharma research(maybe some Biotech) though. MD/PHD would open more roads. Any PHD is basically research, teaching, or sitting as an exec for a Pharma company :rolleyes: ( :laugh: )
Click to expand...

A Pharm.D/PhD dual degree is a huge commitment. It's not like some of the master's program dual degrees where you can do both in 4 years. You're probably still looking at 3-4 years after your Pharm.D to finish your PhD.
 
R2pharmD2 said:
A Pharm.D/PhD dual degree is a huge commitment. It's not like some of the master's program dual degrees where you can do both in 4 years. You're probably still looking at 3-4 years after your Pharm.D to finish your PhD.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Besides, having endured a Ph.D. program, there is little chance that I'd want to deal with the 60+ hours/week of drudgery knowing that my PharmD classmates would be starting their careers.

Besides, there is an epic fallacy regarding graduate school (Ph.D. research programs) that you have some type of a set schedule. It couldn't be further from the truth and if I were already a Doctor of Pharmacy ... you can be for damn sure that I wouldn't feel compelled to get another doctorate. Long hours, minimal pay and your graduation deadline is at the whim of your research advisor. I have far too many colleagues who slaved away for 5.5-6 years in a PhD program because their advisor tried to milk every drop of sweat out of them. Couple that with the necessity of becoming a Post-Doc (RE: 2 additional years of indentured servitude) in order to even sniff at a teaching position ... Not going to happen unless you're a masochist who has little interest in having a social life again.

Finally ...
Getting faculty teaching position is a life career. You won't be easily replaced. A few of my teachers have been here for 20 years or more. I can't speak for every body but this is my general observation.
Click to expand...

You couldn't be further from the truth. Achieving tenure is key, but it's a 5 year process. Most teachers who cross the bridge realize that they are going to do this for the rest of their life, therefore, most teachers will be there for 20+ years. After going through the level of stress to achieve that goal, they sure as hell aren't going to leave regardless of their teaching skill set, which varies widely.

Hours are flexible. You get paid less but job is more stable. For me, I enjoy doing research in my own time. The only stress that you may have is getting grant which I found none of my teachers have problem with that. I have 2 research papers going to publish in a few months. Planing to purse Ph.D in pharmaceutics which my school is offering.
Click to expand...

Hours are flexible? Surely you jest. See previous paragraph regarding job stability. The fact that you say the "only stress" is regarding grants is laughable. Given the reduction of funding towards education, grant writing is far more competitive and quite difficult to achieve.

Wow.
 
chemguy79 said:
Exactly! Besides, having endured a Ph.D. program, there is little chance that I'd want to deal with the 60+ hours/week of drudgery knowing that my PharmD classmates would be starting their careers.

Besides, there is an epic fallacy regarding graduate school (Ph.D. research programs) that you have some type of a set schedule. It couldn't be further from the truth and if I were already a Doctor of Pharmacy ... you can be for damn sure that I wouldn't feel compelled to get another doctorate. Long hours, minimal pay and your graduation deadline is at the whim of your research advisor. I have far too many colleagues who slaved away for 5.5-6 years in a PhD program because their advisor tried to milk every drop of sweat out of them. Couple that with the necessity of becoming a Post-Doc (RE: 2 additional years of indentured servitude) in order to even sniff at a teaching position ... Not going to happen unless you're a masochist who has little interest in having a social life again.

Finally ...


You couldn't be further from the truth. Achieving tenure is key, but it's a 5 year process. Most teachers who cross the bridge realize that they are going to do this for the rest of their life, therefore, most teachers will be there for 20+ years. After going through the level of stress to achieve that goal, they sure as hell aren't going to leave regardless of their teaching skill set, which varies widely.



Hours are flexible? Surely you jest. See previous paragraph regarding job stability. The fact that you say the "only stress" is regarding grants is laughable. Given the reduction of funding towards education, grant writing is far more competitive and quite difficult to achieve.

Wow.
Click to expand...
That is why I said It is stress to get the grant. I am not sure why it is laughable. Thing that is true for you may not be true for other, so don't just give an attitude of n=1.

In my post, I mention that this is my general observation. I can't speak for everybody.
 
5minutes said:
That is why I said It is stress to get the grant. I am not sure why it is laughable. Thing that is true for you may not be true for other, so don't just give an attitude of n=1.

In my post, I mention that this is my general observation. I can't speak for everybody.
Click to expand...

My point is that there is MUCH more than grant writing stress. The fact that you seemed to trivialize it was amusing when you stated:

The only stress that you may have is getting grant which I found none of my teachers have problem with that.
Click to expand...

Such a myopic viewpoint.

Furthermore, coupling that stress with teaching committments, finding research that can conceivably work, let alone getting funding for that research, etc. is a bear. That's why a fairly substantial percentage of PhD students fail to complete the program even in the best of circumstances. Therefore, I found your post somewhat laughable as someone who has been directly involved with PhD research in a professional school setting.
 
chemguy79 said:
My point is that there is MUCH more than grant writing stress. The fact that you seemed to trivialize it was amusing when you stated:



Such a myopic viewpoint.

Furthermore, coupling that stress with teaching committments, finding research that can conceivably work, let alone getting funding for that research, etc. is a bear. That's why a fairly substantial percentage of PhD students fail to complete the program even in the best of circumstances. Therefore, I found your post somewhat laughable as someone who has been directly involved with PhD research in a professional school setting.
Click to expand...
Your post is not very constructive. It is more like criticizing people. I am very busy and I don't have the time to sit here and write a perfect response which noone has no dispute point.

To the OP: my post is very clear. I like research and I think it is worth to get into. We have a pharmacist who is willing to quit his job and do Ph.D in our school. I asked why and he told me that this is something he always wants to do. Hope I balance opinion.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
He's trying to tell him the truth. I have a PhD and am going back to school to get my PharmD in order to get a job. I adjunct teach and in the last NIH funding cycle you needed to be scored at 99.5% to get funding. The competition is just brutal. There is so little money now and more gets cut every day from the NIH budget. In order to get tenure you need 2 papers a year and a grant funded... If not NEXT..... and I am at a "lower" university. 100,000 medicinal chemistry and synthetic chemist jobs have been lost over the last 2 years, you are competing with guys with huge amounts of papers and patents, good luck. I am hoping the dual PhD/PharmD will help if not there are a lot more pharmacist jobs than chemist jobs. My dream is clinical research trials but we will see.
 
i wouldn't do it considering i have no interest in bench work research.
 
I think it was the condecending way in which he disagreed that was the problem. Anyway, I agree that the PharmD/PhD route is not for everyone. It's very hard and stressful work. However, there is a definite advantage at having both in industry and academia from what I have heard.

As far as funding, I've heard that these things, like most things, go in cycles: Some time frames it's relatively easy to get funding, some time frames, it's very hard. With the recession and surplus of PhDs right now its very hard. Who knows what it will be like in 6-7 years when new PharmD/PhDs hit the market?
 
chemnerd99 said:
He's trying to tell him the truth. I have a PhD and am going back to school to get my PharmD in order to get a job. I adjunct teach and in the last NIH funding cycle you needed to be scored at 99.5% to get funding. The competition is just brutal. There is so little money now and more gets cut every day from the NIH budget. In order to get tenure you need 2 papers a year and a grant funded... If not NEXT..... and I am at a "lower" university. 100,000 medicinal chemistry and synthetic chemist jobs have been lost over the last 2 years, you are competing with guys with huge amounts of papers and patents, good luck. I am hoping the dual PhD/PharmD will help if not there are a lot more pharmacist jobs than chemist jobs. My dream is clinical research trials but we will see.
Click to expand...

I completely feel your pain, chemnerd. You're going through the same thing that 2 of my colleagues have experienced with their PhD's in Chemistry. I share your dream job, clinical research trials.

I felt that my post was constructive because I demonstrated the clear weaknesses in your argument. You overlooked many intrinsic aspects to being in academia and furthermore, those positions are incredibly difficult to find. Therefore, your argument was flawed.

Furthermore, when someone posts inaccurate information and perspective about a topic, it's rather frustrating ... even more so because I have actual experience in the field. Frankly, it's not about having a perfect post, it's about providing intelligent perspective from having actual experience in the field. If someone is providing fallacious information about a topic, alternate perspective or not, it should be properly discussed ... with respect, of course.
 
chemguy79 said:
I completely feel your pain, chemnerd. You're going through the same thing that 2 of my colleagues have experienced with their PhD's in Chemistry. I share your dream job, clinical research trials.

I felt that my post was constructive because I demonstrated the clear weaknesses in your argument. You overlooked many intrinsic aspects to being in academia and furthermore, those positions are incredibly difficult to find. Therefore, your argument was flawed.

Furthermore, when someone posts inaccurate information and perspective about a topic, it's rather frustrating ... even more so because I have actual experience in the field. Frankly, it's not about having a perfect post, it's about providing intelligent perspective from having actual experience in the field. If someone is providing fallacious information about a topic, alternate perspective or not, it should be properly discussed ... with respect, of course.
Click to expand...

Listen to this man. He knows what he is talking about and he is on the money. I wanted to go into academia as a research chemist but after learning more about the process, I started thinking about my other options. You need as many quality publications as you can get in order to even have a shot at a decent university as an assistant professor during your grad and post-doc years. The problem is you can invest your time and be a top student but without anything to show. I knew a few grad students who just got stuck with terrible projects though they were gifted in many respects. Also, many of my friends are struggling to find full time jobs in academia/industry and it's not getting any better though some have major publications under their belt. Combining a Ph.D. with a Pharm.D. is do-able but splitting your time between both is no easy task and could take away from the quality of doing each degree separately.
 
Using one's own experience to present for all people is just another bias. We learn this in pharmacy school. The worse is when these people become so full of themselves and start to degrade other people's opinion by bringing out whatever they called "my experience in the field" of "chemistry". What you called "inaccuracy" is just another bias of yourself. Why? Because it can be inaccurate to your field but it may not be to others. Get it?

Now, it is not a very constructive response when you try to degrade other opinion and insist that you are right. The picture is needed to be filled with different views so that the OP can choose what he feels it right.

It is not my intention to start the battle. It is my intention to help the OP with that I see, what I believe to be true. And I did mention it in my post that this regards to my school. So before you started bashing people's ideas. Sit back and think criticism will come back to you.
 
Last edited:
5minutes said:
Using one's own experience to present for all people is just another bias. We learn this in pharmacy school. The worse is when these people become so full of themselves and start to degrade other people's opinion by bringing out whatever they called "my experience in the field" of "chemistry". What you called "inaccuracy" is just another bias of yourself. Why? Because it can be inaccurate to your field but it may not be to others. Get it?

Now, it is not a very constructive response when you try to degrade other opinion and insist that you are right. The picture is needed to be filled with different views so that the OP can choose what he feels it right.

It is not my intention to start the battle. It is my intention to help the OP with that I see, what I believe to be true. And I did mention it in my post that this regards to my school. So before you started bashing people's ideas. Sit back and think criticism will come back to you.
Click to expand...

I wasn't bashing anyone but all I'll say is that everyone's opinion is biased. I'll end it at that.
 
armorking said:
I wasn't bashing anyone but all I'll say is that everyone's opinion is biased. I'll end it at that.
Click to expand...

Completely agree armorking, everyone's opinion is biased. Different experiences contribute to a different knowledge set.

However, when people who have experienced the field are coming to a consensus regarding the feasibility regarding pursuing such a venture ... it's a rather telling fact. Furthermore, when one's opinions are formed from second-hand interactions, I'm willing to entertain their opinions. However, when things are clearly incorrect on the basis of my experience (as that of others who are participating in this thread), I'd rather explain the inaccuracies versus having someone form an opinion from ill-sighted commentary. If you feel compelled to do the same with our thoughts, that's not a problem ... It is the nature of debate.

Having been completely dicked around in a research project in graduate school (along with 35-40% of perspective PhD students) and hearing someone, who hasn't attended graduate school in research, believe that getting a PhD/PharmD is a reasonable venture ... I have to state that I find the idea unrealistic.
 
chemguy79 said:
Completely agree armorking, everyone's opinion is biased. Different experiences contribute to a different knowledge set.

However, when people who have experienced the field are coming to a consensus regarding the feasibility regarding pursuing such a venture ... it's a rather telling fact. Furthermore, when one's opinions are formed from second-hand interactions, I'm willing to entertain their opinions. However, when things are clearly incorrect on the basis of my experience (as that of others who are participating in this thread), I'd rather explain the inaccuracies versus having someone form an opinion from ill-sighted commentary. If you feel compelled to do the same with our thoughts, that's not a problem ... It is the nature of debate.

Having been completely dicked around in a research project in graduate school (along with 35-40% of perspective PhD students) and hearing someone, who hasn't attended graduate school in research, believe that getting a PhD/PharmD is a reasonable venture ... I have to state that I find the idea unrealistic.
Click to expand...

"Entertain their opinion" by calling people's opinion laughable? You are free to add whatever you think is right to the OP. But please don't go around and correct people with that attitude. If you do, say it in a constructive way such as " I would like to add to your comment.." or " I think it may be not absolutely true that...". Degrade other opinions, and take your opinion heavily isn't going to get you nowhere. After all, it is called "opinion", is it not?

"I have to state that I find the idea unrealistic". At this point you are surely wrong in your imagination. By the way, if you talk this to pharmacy school with a Ph.D/Pharm.D program. You surely fail to get in. So, please don't mention it for your own sake.


http://www.accp.com/docs/positions/commentaries/Pharm2902_ACCP-RecEd_for_Pharms.pdf

Using experience in one field to justify your opinion in another is bias. That is all. At least, if you say so, don't fool people around. Keep it in your own space.

"hearing someone, who hasn't attended graduate school in research". This is really not true. I manage to have 2 papers published in pharmacology during my first and second year of pharmacy school. Should I not have any inside? Wow, people in these days really amaze me.
 
Last edited:
Yikes... I think the OP just wanted to get general info. It's a matter of choice what you want to do and I think that you can put your opinions out here, but it doesn't mean that one person is 100% correct. I'm not siding with anyone, but you should remember that pharmacy and PhD are completely different in terms of what you do in the workplace. Also, I don't think it's necessary to get heated about all of this. I mean, people choose what they want to do and who are we to stop any one? Personally, I think that people reading this thread have been informed and what they choose to do with the information is for them.
 
I just had to chime in here because I see this alot on SDN. Calling someone's opinions "laughable," "amusing," "myopic" is not appropriate. Period. There are people on SDN who state opinion as fact. 5minutes is definitely not one of these people nor did I receive this impression from his post . There is a professional way to disagree strongly with someone's opinion that doesn't include being condescending. But then again, I suppose people think its OK to be rude because it's the internet.
 
We shall clearly agree to disagree. I have received quite a few compliments regarding my thoughts and opinions in this thread, so I feel confident that the information that I have shared is accurate and reliable. *shrug*

I don't necessarily think that I was being rude; I found the fact that someone who stated that achieving a PhD would provide job security and such to be completely laughable. Honestly, it is laughable. It's not being rude, it's stating a fact. If you are insulted by that fact, I'm sorry.

Frankly ... Feel free to pursue a PharmD/PhD, I think that it's completely unrealistic having experienced one of the paths. I'm sure that schools offer it, however, I think that it's an insane process. Furthermore, I have every right to state why I feel that it is insane. *shrug*

5 Minutes:

Out of curiousity, what was the extent of your research? How many hours weekly did you spend in the lab? Those of us who have experienced research in this thread worked 50+ hours/week. I had to sign a contract saying that I would spend 60+ hours a week on campus in the lab. Therefore, I (and a collective we) find that it would be next to impossible to pursue Pharmacy school while performing that level of research. Those of us who are cynical regarding your opinions have experienced research that goes beyond the scope of what you are performing in pharmacy school. It's not being harsh, it's a matter of fact. If you actually performed 50+ hours/weekly of research while attending pharmacy school full-time, then kudos. However, my colleagues in med school have published papers while spending 15 hours weekly (at the absolute most) in the lab ... I don't feel that it is an accurate perception of what a PhD is like.

Wow, people in these days really amaze me.

Yes, they truly do.
 
veyep said:
I would not either :D But since there are so many pharmacy schools, I wonder if they would start offering this program to make themself stand out!
Click to expand...
The schools that offer dual programs are usually big research schools (UCSF, UCSD, University of Michigan). Most pharmacy schools won't have the facilities and funding needed for PhD's.
 
chemguy79 said:
We shall clearly agree to disagree. I have received quite a few compliments regarding my thoughts and opinions in this thread, so I feel confident that the information that I have shared is accurate and reliable. *shrug*

I don't necessarily think that I was being rude; I found the fact that someone who stated that achieving a PhD would provide job security and such to be completely laughable. Honestly, it is laughable. It's not being rude, it's stating a fact. If you are insulted by that fact, I'm sorry.

Frankly ... Feel free to pursue a PharmD/PhD, I think that it's completely unrealistic having experienced one of the paths. I'm sure that schools offer it, however, I think that it's an insane process. Furthermore, I have every right to state why I feel that it is insane. *shrug*

5 Minutes:

Out of curiousity, what was the extent of your research? How many hours weekly did you spend in the lab? Those of us who have experienced research in this thread worked 50+ hours/week. I had to sign a contract saying that I would spend 60+ hours a week on campus in the lab. Therefore, I (and a collective we) find that it would be next to impossible to pursue Pharmacy school while performing that level of research. Those of us who are cynical regarding your opinions have experienced research that goes beyond the scope of what you are performing in pharmacy school. It's not being harsh, it's a matter of fact. If you actually performed 50+ hours/weekly of research while attending pharmacy school full-time, then kudos. However, my colleagues in med school have published papers while spending 15 hours weekly (at the absolute most) in the lab ... I don't feel that it is an accurate perception of what a PhD is like.

Wow, people in these days really amaze me.

Yes, they truly do.
Click to expand...


You are not very professional as far as I know which is fine since you have not learnt it. I am dealing with a lot of people just like you. But still I hope one day you will learn being more professional. My advice to you is, if you apply to pharmacy school, not to put your interview's point of view down because at the end of the day no one cares about you. Lastly, I don't have to say more about my credentials. I already said it clearly.

"When you win you still lose (a friend), when you lose you lose"--Dale Carnagies.
 
5minutes said:
You are not very professional as far as I know which is fine since you have not learnt it. I am dealing with a lot of people just like you. But still I hope one day you will learn being more professional. My advice to you is, if you apply to pharmacy school, not to put your interview's point of view down because at the end of the day no one cares about you. Lastly, I don't have to say more about my credentials. I already said it clearly.

"When you win you still lose (a friend), when you lose you lose"--Dale Carnagies.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your sincere comments. I do hope that you can understand that those who have different opinions and experiences which directly relate to a discussion can express said different opinions on message boards. I am confident that interacting with people like you will provide me chances to test my patience with people who have different backgrounds which shape their opinions. I find your professionalism lacking in this discussion and that is a disappointment.

I disagree that you have stated your credentials; I merely asked about the amount of research that you have done in pharmacy school. I do not believe that you have performed the amount of research that a PhD performs, therefore, I call into question your commentary regarding the feasability of performing both difficult programs in pharmacy school. Performing 10-15 hours of research (merely conjecture since you abstain from answering the question) while in pharmacy school to publish a paper does not adequately compare to the research that a PhD applicant performs.

Good luck with your program and your research.
 
To the OP: I want to do a PharmD/PhD because (and if someone criticizes me for this i'll have my dog chew you to bits) I am a researcher. I feel like when it comes to sciences there are two types of ppl: one's who want help sick people and others who want to research sick people. I've been doing research for a few years now and yes i've worked painfully long weeks in it too (70+hrs- i loved that paycheck tho). I've listened to my PI whine about his experience at Harvard and go on about how painful it was, but at the end of the day, he doesnt regret it.

Funding is difficult. there's a list of 12 different grants behind me right now, which have all been submitted, and not one has been accepted. I've been laid off 3x b/c of lack of funding. Thats research though, if you dont want to do that, get an industry/government position. The economy isnt the greatest right now, and it all depends on the type of research you do too. from my understanding oncology and infertility research are hot spots for research now.

It takes another 3-4 yrs too, you are compensated for your time, but its by all means not the big bucks. Its a matter of commitment and getting as many papers published as possible.

FYI- i'll be attending Medical Univ of S. Carolina, and according to them they only receive 1-2 students p/ year interested in the pharmd/phd program
 
megandupe said:
To the OP: I want to do a PharmD/PhD because (and if someone criticizes me for this i'll have my dog chew you to bits) I am a researcher. I feel like when it comes to sciences there are two types of ppl: one's who want help sick people and others who want to research sick people. I've been doing research for a few years now and yes i've worked painfully long weeks in it too (70+hrs- i loved that paycheck tho). I've listened to my PI whine about his experience at Harvard and go on about how painful it was, but at the end of the day, he doesnt regret it.

Funding is difficult. there's a list of 12 different grants behind me right now, which have all been submitted, and not one has been accepted. I've been laid off 3x b/c of lack of funding. Thats research though, if you dont want to do that, get an industry/government position. The economy isnt the greatest right now, and it all depends on the type of research you do too. from my understanding oncology and infertility research are hot spots for research now.

It takes another 3-4 yrs too, you are compensated for your time, but its by all means not the big bucks. Its a matter of commitment and getting as many papers published as possible.

FYI- i'll be attending Medical Univ of S. Carolina, and according to them they only receive 1-2 students p/ year interested in the pharmd/phd program
Click to expand...

Awesome post!

You explained the program RE: what it entails, you know the ridiculous workload with respect to working 70+ hour weeks, and you're still willing to do it. Major props! :) After getting completely burned out during my previous program, I couldn't imagine going through it again.

If someone decides to pursue a PharmD/PhD program without having extensive research experience aside from working 10-15 hours a week and getting your name on a paper, I would surely cast side-eye, shade, and anything else that I've learned from RuPaul's Drag Race. You're far from that person and that's pretty friggin' sweet.
 
I love this post is awesome. I had the thought not long ago in pursuing a Ph. D all the way instead of pharmacy, I graduated with a BA in chemistry. However, after working at the research lab for a while, I felt pity about the post-doc researchers there wandering about future projects, and career prospectives. I mean, common, this guys are already DOCTORS, they were brought here from japan, indian, and all over the world, and they have to be there doing super long hours, even on weekends, many times doing research that they are not VERY interested in. The really sad thing is many times personal curiosity, creativity, autonomy, and all the good stuff about being a Ph. D, is not even possible to achieve, because of the grants, PI, or lack of opportunities.

I guess if you really want to pursue a Pharm. D/Ph. D, well just go for it. However, forget about the all ALMIGHTY MONEY for a long while, and enjoy what you do. At the end of the day it only matters what you FEEL, when you are doing your job. If you feel good, the chances that being underpaid, or not even paid, mistreated, insulted, spited, wounded :D, slaved, etc...is not going to affect you that much because that is what you love.

Hey chemguy, do you speak as you write? That is awesome. I have to use wikipedia to find the meaning of some words that your post lol, how much did u get in the verbal for the PCAT?.
 
quimicosoy said:
I love this post is awesome. I had the thought not long ago in pursuing a Ph. D all the way instead of pharmacy, I graduated with a BA in chemistry. However, after working at the research lab for a while, I felt pity about the post-doc researchers there wandering about future projects, and career prospectives. I mean, common, this guys are already DOCTORS, they were brought here from japan, indian, and all over the world, and they have to be there doing super long hours, even on weekends, many times doing research that they are not VERY interested in. The really sad thing is many times personal curiosity, creativity, autonomy, and all the good stuff about being a Ph. D, is not even possible to achieve, because of the grants, PI, or lack of opportunities.

I guess if you really want to pursue a Pharm. D/Ph. D, well just go for it. However, forget about the all ALMIGHTY MONEY for a long while, and enjoy what you do. At the end of the day it only matters what you FEEL, when you are doing your job. If you feel good, the chances that being underpaid, or not even paid, mistreated, insulted, spited, wounded :D, slaved, etc...is not going to affect you that much because that is what you love.

Hey chemguy, do you speak as you write? That is awesome. I have to use wikipedia to find the meaning of some words that your post lol, how much did u get in the verbal for the PCAT?.
Click to expand...

:)

That's something that people who are lacking in extensive research experience fail to see. Acheiving 2 papers while working 10-15 hours a week is not even close to the workload that PhD candidates pursue for 4.5-6 years. I'm grateful for my research experience because I was able to use novel instrumentation, attend conferences and such, but the workload was ridiculous and I'm lucky that I was able to sustain any type of a social life during that endeavor.

My friends pick on me for using either "big words" or "excessive profanity", so I'm glad that I'm merely using "big words" on SDN. :p

I scored in the 90s on the Verbal, I think at the 92nd percentile although my PCAT scores are lurking somewhere on SDN. :D

Side Note: I know that I have probably dissuaded anyone from EVER pursuing graduate research while in pharmacy school. However, graduate research in pharmacy school is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH different than PhD research. I'm still amazed that someone who has experienced the difficulties of the research world is choosing to pursue a PharmD/PhD. That takes EPIC cajones.
 
Hey Chemguy, I have a question for you: With all the stress and lack of jobs for PhDs right now, do you regret your PhD years? Do you wish you had instead gone straight to Pharmacy school? Thanks

Also, I'm just curious, what experience did you have before you decided to pursue your PhD?
 
Last edited:
Smiles425 said:
Hey Chemguy, I have a question for you: With all the stress and lack of jobs for PhDs right now, do you regret your PhD years? Do you wish you had instead gone straight to Pharmacy school? Thanks

Also, I'm just curious, what experience did you have before you decided to pursue your PhD?
Click to expand...

Unquestionably YES!

I enjoyed graduate school, I loved teaching, but I wish that I would have went to Pharmacy school immediately after undergrad. (I was worried that my undergrad GPA wasn't good enough, although reading the threads on here, I would have been in great shape.)

I always thought that a PhD would provide job security, but that's a major fallacy. If anything, graduate school and my subsequent career as a chemist has taught me that there is no such thing as job security. I enjoy scientific research, but I would be much closer to my goal as a clinical scientist as a Pharm D than I would if I were to stay as a research chemist.


Edited to add: I worked full-time in an optometrist office for 4.5 years during undergrad as an Optometric Technician and performed research for a professor who was interested in teaching theory & developing curriculum/laboratories for general chemistry. I loved drug research and drug development, so my senior capstone was a literature project about medicinal chemistry for a pharmaceutical compound. (QSAR, synthetic routes, administration, etc.) I enjoyed Optometry, thought about pursuing that career, but I enjoyed Pharmacy more because of the additional patient contact opportunities and having the chance to work in a clinical setting.
 
Hell yes. I don't regret my PhD per se, just wish I had then immediately gone to Pharm or Med school. After fighting for ten years and 2 shutdowns, its just depressing. It is not just that the pharm/chem industry isn't hiring, the jobs are leaving the united states forever. Brand new research facilities in the states are being closed to open brand new research facilities in China and India. It is cheaper to hire 3 chemists there than one here and they don't have to pay benefits and get "to follow the environmental rules of the country that they are in". Oops they forgot to pass any. The Yangtze river has benzene floating in it. Chemists are a dying industry.

Pharmacists can't be outsourced yet. Wish I had done this 10 yr ago. Oh well, its never too late.

Ps. Any one that tells you that you can get a PhD with precisely 2 more years of school is lying. Even if your PhD classwork coincides with the pharm classwork (its normally 1.5 -2 yrs), the research for your PhD will take at least 3 yr at 60 hr/week and thats IF your project works and your advisor is not a A hole. (rare I'm afraid).
 
Last edited:
chemnerd99 said:
Hell yes. I don't regret my PhD per se, just wish I had then immediately gone to Pharm or Med school. After fighting for ten years and 2 shutdowns, its just depressing. It is not just that the pharm/chem industry isn't hiring, the jobs are leaving the united states forever. Brand new research facilities in the states are being closed to open brand new research facilities in China and India. It is cheaper to hire 3 chemists there than one here and they don't have to pay benefits and get "to follow the environmental rules of the country that they are in". Oops they forgot to pass any. The Yangtze river has benzene floating in it. Chemists are a dying industry.

Pharmacists can't be outsourced yet. Wish I had done this 10 yr ago. Oh well, its never too late.

Ps. Any one that tells you that you can get a PhD with precisely 2 more years of school is lying. Even if your PhD classwork coincides with the pharm classwork (its normally 1.5 -2 yrs), the research for your PhD will take at least 3 yr at 60 hr/week and thats IF your project works and your advisor is not a A hole. (rare I'm afraid).
Click to expand...

Complete word to your entire post. My CRO lost an incredibly important contract because our client sent the work to their new site in India. We're talking a million dollar contract dropped and my company's loyalty doesn't mean jack. It's happening more and more, although my current company has a formulation site, stability chambers on site so we're in better shape ... for another 5 years. *shrug*

The research advisor story is a whole other box of bull****. In a PharmD program, you have a curriculum that's set in stone. In a PhD program, you have absolutely no say when you graduate. Your advisor and your committee dictate your life. I had colleagues who were "mastered" out of the program because their advisor didn't feel that they were "making enough progress." Total BS. It's lots of serendipitous luck that determines funding, success, and it can absolutely kill your soul ... although as a Ginger, I was already lacking a soul.

Side Note: Some students on here wonder why their TA's are awful ... More often than not, their TA's are simply told "Don't **** your students." and given the answer keys to the lab. There is absolutely no sort teaching pedagogical advice and more often than not, the TA's have never done the lab that they're observing. I absolutely loved teaching labs and working in the tutorial center, but most of my colleagues LOATHED teaching, and made it known at every opportunity, because it took away from their mandatory 50 to 60+ hours in the lab.
 
chemguy79 said:
Complete word to your entire post. My CRO lost an incredibly important contract because our client sent the work to their new site in India. We're talking a million dollar contract dropped and my company's loyalty doesn't mean jack. It's happening more and more, although my current company has a formulation site, stability chambers on site so we're in better shape ... for another 5 years. *shrug*

The research advisor story is a whole other box of bull****. In a PharmD program, you have a curriculum that's set in stone. In a PhD program, you have absolutely no say when you graduate. Your advisor and your committee dictate your life. I had colleagues who were "mastered" out of the program because their advisor didn't feel that they were "making enough progress." Total BS. It's lots of serendipitous luck that determines funding, success, and it can absolutely kill your soul ... although as a Ginger, I was already lacking a soul.

LOL!!

Side Note: Some students on here wonder why their TA's are awful ... More often than not, their TA's are simply told "Don't **** your students." and given the answer keys to the lab. There is absolutely no sort teaching pedagogical advice and more often than not, the TA's have never done the lab that they're observing. I absolutely loved teaching labs and working in the tutorial center, but most of my colleagues LOATHED teaching, and made it known at every opportunity, because it took away from their mandatory 50 to 60+ hours in the lab.
Click to expand...

Ya i've heard this happen a few times before. Some TAs shouldnt teach at all, they just make their life and the students life more of a living hell. My friend who's working on his masters right now actually got let go from his TA position. He probably said something that offended someone knowing him.

I wonder if I will have to TA for pharmd/phd. the reason i'm curious is b/c my school is only a medical campus, there is no undergrad. I love teaching though, and i've already TA'd 2 semesters in the past.
 
chemnerd99 said:
I am hoping the dual PhD/PharmD will help if not there are a lot more pharmacist jobs than chemist jobs. My dream is clinical research trials but we will see.
Click to expand...

The PhD won't help you as much as you think in clinical research. Moreso for preclinical work. A PharmD + fellowship (particular UNC's) will be your best route into clinical research, but along those lines... the PhD will make you a pretty tantalizing candidate for a fellowship.
 
chemguy79 said:
We shall clearly agree to disagree. I have received quite a few compliments regarding my thoughts and opinions in this thread, so I feel confident that the information that I have shared is accurate and reliable. *shrug*

I don't necessarily think that I was being rude; I found the fact that someone who stated that achieving a PhD would provide job security and such to be completely laughable. Honestly, it is laughable. It's not being rude, it's stating a fact. If you are insulted by that fact, I'm sorry.

Frankly ... Feel free to pursue a PharmD/PhD, I think that it's completely unrealistic having experienced one of the paths. I'm sure that schools offer it, however, I think that it's an insane process. Furthermore, I have every right to state why I feel that it is insane. *shrug*

5 Minutes:

Out of curiousity, what was the extent of your research? How many hours weekly did you spend in the lab? Those of us who have experienced research in this thread worked 50+ hours/week. I had to sign a contract saying that I would spend 60+ hours a week on campus in the lab. Therefore, I (and a collective we) find that it would be next to impossible to pursue Pharmacy school while performing that level of research. Those of us who are cynical regarding your opinions have experienced research that goes beyond the scope of what you are performing in pharmacy school. It's not being harsh, it's a matter of fact. If you actually performed 50+ hours/weekly of research while attending pharmacy school full-time, then kudos. However, my colleagues in med school have published papers while spending 15 hours weekly (at the absolute most) in the lab ... I don't feel that it is an accurate perception of what a PhD is like.

Wow, people in these days really amaze me.

Yes, they truly do.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure you understand how a typical PharmD/PhD track works. You do realize that you aren't doing both at the same time, but switching back and forth (for example, yrs 1-3 PharmD, yr 4 PhD, yr 5 finish up PharmD, yrs 6-? PhD). There are some absolutely brilliant ppl (myself not included) out there with plenty of dedication towards their work. With that said, PharmD/PhD is definitely doable and worth it depending on your professional goals.
 
2411t said:
I'm not sure you understand how a typical PharmD/PhD track works. You do realize that you aren't doing both at the same time, but switching back and forth (for example, yrs 1-3 PharmD, yr 4 PhD, yr 5 finish up PharmD, yrs 6-? PhD). There are some absolutely brilliant ppl (myself not included) out there with plenty of dedication towards their work. With that said, PharmD/PhD is definitely doable and worth it depending on your professional goals.
Click to expand...

I'm aware how the program works; However, I think that it would be difficult to be in regimented track (PharmD) program, venture over towards a 1 year stint PhD program which is quite fluid, finish up your PharmD and then, decide to spend the next 4-5 years on your PhD. Personally, I am biased because I know what happens in a PhD program, but I would have a difficult time going back into working 60+ hours a week for absolute CHUMP CHANGE after obtaining a PharmD. There are surely people who choose this venture, however, I would not be one of them.
 
I learned a lot about this thread. Im kind of interested in research and read a book "How to survive your ph.d" and I have to say it is similar to what chemguy79 has to say. But how is research in pharmacy school? is is possible with 19 credits? I give props to 5mins because that is no easy feat.
 
nycrxdream said:
I learned a lot about this thread. Im kind of interested in research and read a book "How to survive your ph.d" and I have to say it is similar to what chemguy79 has to say. But how is research in pharmacy school? is is possible with 19 credits? I give props to 5mins because that is no easy feat.
Click to expand...

I have spent 30 hours or more a week in the summer after P1 to do research. And It takes me 2 years to complete. It does take a lot of time and I am aware of it. However, I have 2 papers going to be published together with my faculty adviser. It is a biggest commitment I have ever done.

And why did I do this? Let's be honest. There is not many retail jobs right now. Hospital jobs are not that many either. Therefore, I put a lot of time in something else just to prepare myself for the worst case. Research is really my plan B. I don't love it, but I don't hate it. It just helps me to get some paid while being unemployed. And if I finish my Ph.D, I can do something else besides Pharm.D.

Now, It is not that I am too optimistic about Ph.D either. I am aware of how difficult it is to get grant. But again what can you do while you are in school? You do the best you can in every single area that you have opportunity to work with.

What is about my studying? I manage to be on the top 15% still after my P2. It really kills me to get all of these things. I am also president of one organization at my school. I also manage to work 12 hours a week during regular school year. You may ask how can I do this? Because I am motivated to do so. I sleep less, eat less, play less. That is all I got.
 
The PharmD/PhD topic is much more heavily debated than I would have ever dreamed it would be...

In my opinion there are two very legitimate situations that would warrant one adding a PhD to a PharmD degree: 1) Do it if it is what is required to get you where you want to be professionally. While a PhD almost certainly won't help at all if you are applying to retail or hospital staff pharmacist positions, it almost certainly would help if you want to apply to academic or some industrial positions. If these are what you want, then consider the PhD. OR 2) Do it if you sincerely want the PhD for yourself. Realize that graduate school can suck a lot. You will be at the bench for countless hours per week. Your future will be in the hands of your advisor (so pick wisely and stay on his/her good side!!). You will have little social life outside of lab. But, there are also positives. You may find that you really love the field you are studying. You may love lab work. You may really enjoy many parts of your PhD time. If you personally believe that all of the headache is worth it for whatever reason you may have, and if you are willing to spend the years of lost income doing it, then by all means get a PhD. Only you can determine whether it is worth it for you.
 
5minutes said:
I have spent 30 hours or more a week in the summer after P1 to do research. And It takes me 2 years to complete. It does take a lot of time and I am aware of it. However, I have 2 papers going to be published together with my faculty adviser. It is a biggest commitment I have ever done.

And why did I do this? Let's be honest. There is not many retail jobs right now. Hospital jobs are not that many either. Therefore, I put a lot of time in something else just to prepare myself for the worst case. Research is really my plan B. I don't love it, but I don't hate it. It just helps me to get some paid while being unemployed. And if I finish my Ph.D, I can do something else besides Pharm.D.

Now, It is not that I am too optimistic about Ph.D either. I am aware of how difficult it is to get grant. But again what can you do while you are in school? You do the best you can in every single area that you have opportunity to work with.

What is about my studying? I manage to be on the top 15% still after my P2. It really kills me to get all of these things. I am also president of one organization at my school. I also manage to work 12 hours a week during regular school year. You may ask how can I do this? Because I am motivated to do so. I sleep less, eat less, play less. That is all I got.
Click to expand...


Let me get this straight, for my own clarification:

You only have to do 2 summers of research for 30+ hours a week to get your PharmD/PhD?

I ask for clarification because that is an INCREDIBLY short amount of time to get a PhD and it absolutely surprises me.
 
chemguy79 said:
Let me get this straight, for my own clarification:

You only have to do 2 summers of research for 30+ hours a week to get your PharmD/PhD?

I ask for clarification because that is an INCREDIBLY short amount of time to get a PhD and it absolutely surprises me.
Click to expand...

And during my school year. PLus this is not a Ph.D program. I never said that I am doing a Pharm.D/Ph.D. I said that I will do it after Pharm.D.

My school offers elective class for research with faculty adviser.
 
5minutes said:
And during my school year. PLus this is not a Ph.D program. I never said that I am doing a Pharm.D/Ph.D. I said that I will do it after Pharm.D.

My school offers elective class for research with faculty adviser.
Click to expand...

That makes much more sense. I (as well as others, I surmise) was under the impression from your responses that you are currently pursuing a PharmD/PhD, which is precisely why I asked for clarification earlier in the thread.

Good luck with your research.
 
chemguy79 said:
That makes much more sense. I (as well as others, I surmise) was under the impression from your responses that you are currently pursuing a PharmD/PhD, which is precisely why I asked for clarification earlier in the thread.

Good luck with your research.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
Hey don't get me wrong. I love research, I have 4 major papers and a patent, its just that when you get older with a spouse, kids and a house going through layoffs every couple of years sucks. My entire division has been outsourced twice. The job I trained for no longer exists. I tried teaching but it pays peanuts. Thing is I'm smart, young enough and gosh darn it I just am going to be in drugs from the patient side as a pharmacist.

If research is your passion, go for it. Maybe we will finally realize the security risk for manufacturing/discovering nearly all of our drugs out of the United States and things will improve. But I wouldn't bet on it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

S
SDN Article: Women in Pharmacy: Gretchen Garofoli, PharmD, BCACP, CTTS
Replies
0
Views
660
Sarah Lawrence
S
N
California Northstate University 3 Yr PharmD COP
Replies
0
Views
38
ngoclethu
N
J L
  • Question
ucsf pharmd question
Replies
4
Views
1K
RXDOC1986
R
D
Butler v. Creighton v. Presby Distance PharmD Programs?
Replies
1
Views
532
sunnyandseventytwo
sunnyandseventytwo
D
  • Poll
Creighton University, Butler University or Presbyterian College for Distance PharmD Studies?
Replies
6
Views
839
Determin3D AneurysM
D
Top