Why Optometry instead of medicine?

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If we all had the stats to get into med school, why would you choose opt over med?

-duration of studies
-work load/stress level
-nature of work (this is a big one)
-interest in vision (non-interest in surg (OMD))
-enough pay to be content

Originally Posted by M281384

-duration of studies
-work load/stress level
-nature of work (this is a big one)
-interest in vision (non-interest in surg (OMD))
-enough pay to be content

I agree with all of the above and would add that your lifestyle is much more flexible because you can choose your own hours. Also, you're never on call, and you don't have to work graveyard shifts. Family life is also a big one for me.

No interest in surgery
Less workload
No stress of matching to a residency
Potential of very high income, if planned properly
Most people think you are a MD anyways so why bother

Originally Posted by q1we3

No interest in surgery
Less workload
No stress of matching to a residency
Potential of very high income, if planned properly
Most people think you are a MD anyways so why bother

Exactly, its good for most people especially nowadays that optometry has gone so far legislatively.

Pros:
For women: Good for raising kids. Lots of jobs are part-time, per diem/locum tenens. (Rates: $350-$500 a day)
For men: Same thing if you like lots of free time to do your hobbies or you can own your own practice(s) and put in the work necessary to manage the finances/workers and then sky is the limit for income.
We get paid the same on medicare as ophthalmologists. Medicaid not yet but the legislation is being considered atm.

Cons:
There is discrimination to get on private medical panels as most people don't realize yet the rigor of our education and its physical science (optics) backbone that is not present in MD/DO schools. And even then they pay us ~30% less.
Saturation in big cities but this is the case with most health providers.
Scope of practice varies a lot from state to state and then once you get older and you want to switch your place of practice it may not be that easy.

Overall, if you are smart, dynamic and are willing to move where the money is, and/or if you just want to help people of all ages see then optometry is a great field.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Overall, if you are smart, dynamic and are willing to move where the money is, and/or if you just want to help people of all ages see then optometry is a great field.

That is the key point. How flexible are you in terms of where you want to practice? Problem is too many students are not flexible enough. They want to stay in the main cities, raise their kids, stay close to their family/where they grew up etc etc. About 90% of the students are already committed in serious relationships by the time they graduate which further limits their options in terms of where they can practice. That is fine but don't complain if you don't make "enough" or refracting all day.
I am Canadian and there is 90% chance I will be going to Alabama for my schooling. That is a huge change for me. But, I want to step out of my comfort zone. This will hopefully open my options in terms of where I can practice, be US or Canada. Just be flexible in terms of where you practice, and be willing to struggle few years out of school. Money will come when you are running your own practice and have reached late 30's and beyond. It takes time build yourself.

Med school seems too daunting, and I think eyes are pretty interesting. Plus, like others have said, I should be able to make enough money to be comfortable while still having time for all of my hobbies.

Originally Posted by godawgs2012

I agree with all of the above and would add that your lifestyle is much more flexible because you can choose your own hours. Also, you're never on call, and you don't have to work graveyard shifts. Family life is also a big one for me.

You guys really should read up on the realities of optometry. My number one concern on this site is that the perception of optometry's reality is totally inappropriate considering what the profession offers currently.

In most situations these days, you can't choose your own hours. You're at the mercy of what your employer needs - that means nights and weekends. Also, as an OD, you absolutely can be on call. If you're one of the lucky few that is able to find a FT or PT position in a private office, you're very likely going to take the call that the senior doc(s) don't want to take. Granted, the call you'll take as an OD is very different than that of an ER doc or surgeon. The point is, optometry is not going to be what you're picturing.

In most cases, careers that pay well, but offer high flexibility are those which involve offering a service or product that is in high demand relative to supply. Optometry is not one of those professions right now. If you choose an OD as a path, be prepared to work hours that you don't want on days that you don't want in environments that you don't like for pay that's lower than you expect. That's the future for many, if not most ODs coming out of programs these days.

Friends, you are all describing optometry in 1980. The future is likely going to be very different and very shaky regarding optometry.

The most likely scenerio is the emergence of refracting opticians. This is almost reality (or may already be) in some parts of Canada (not to metion the rest of the world). Using advanced instruments such as 'Eyelogic" and other state-of-the-art refracting instruments, a stand-alone refraction is very accurate. Coupled that with a good retinal camera (Optos or the next generation) which allows nearly a 300 degree retinal view and 99% of ocular problems can be found in a matter of 5 minutes. Maybe add a slit lamp photo as well.

It will all boil down to money.......ie, who bribes the politicans the most. Ophthalmologists would love refracting opticians who will do their money-making, eye -glass- selling refraction and send the pt to the OMD if any problems arise. It's a win-win for both of them.

Who else will win big with refracting opticians? WALMART. They will be able to offer the public a much cheaper "eyeglass" exam, for what? maybe $20 instead of the pitiful low OD price of $45 now. Remember Walmart---"Always Low Prices" (insert happy face). And opticians will have little to no school loans to pay back.

So the public, opticians, ophthalmologists and politicans all stand to benefit greatly by having refracting opticians. And there is nothing OMDs and opticians would like to do more than to stick it to Optometrists. Trust me here.

The only losers will be optometrists. It WILL happen as a cost-saving measure in the future. I know it is being worked on in the back rooms already.

SO with a refracting optician in every commerical joint, what will the remaining non-private practice ODs (20,000 + current commercial ODs??) in the US do? It's a real question.

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

Friends, you are all describing optometry in 1980. The future is likely going to be very different and very shaky regarding optometry.

The most likely scenerio is the emergence of refracting opticians. This is almost reality (or may already be) in some parts of Canada (not to metion the rest of the world). Using advanced instruments such as 'Eyelogic" and other state-of-the-art refracting instruments, a stand-alone refraction is very accurate. Coupled that with a good retinal camera (Optos or the next generation) which allows nearly a 300 degree retinal view and 99% of ocular problems can be found in a matter of 5 minutes. Maybe add a slit lamp photo as well.

It will all boil down to money.......ie, who bribes the politicans the most. Ophthalmologists would love refracting opticians who will do their money-making, eye -glass- selling refraction and send the pt to the OMD if any problems arise. It's a win-win for both of them.

Who else will win big with refracting opticians? WALMART. They will be able to offer the public a much cheaper "eyeglass" exam, for what? maybe $20 instead of the pitiful low OD price of $45 now. Remember Walmart---"Always Low Prices" (insert happy face). And opticians will have little to no school loans to pay back.

So the public, opticians, ophthalmologists and politicans all stand to benefit greatly by having refracting opticians. And there is nothing OMDs and opticians would like to do more than to stick it to Optometrists. Trust me here.

The only losers will be optometrists. It WILL happen as a cost-saving measure in the future. I know it is being worked on in the back rooms already.

SO with a refracting optician in every commerical joint, what will the remaining non-private practice ODs (20,000 + current commercial ODs??) in the US do? It's a real question.

I thought the same as you regarding the emergence of refracting opticians but reality is little different. Since, you brought up Canada. I will share how exactly it is here. I am in BC where optician can use the auto-refractor to do eye exams. But, truth is all these optical places who advertise free eye exams WITH NO OD at the site are virtually empty. Some of the places have 2-3 opticians but still hire OD to do the eye exams. Why?

1. Because they are only trained to use a machine
2. They can only use that machine on certain healthy individuals, so no kids or seniors. Which is the market that OD mainly serve anyways.
3. People ask FOR A DOCTOR.
4. MD here in BC, refer to OD first in most cases NOT A OPTICIAN or OMD.

Unless optician training changes to a 4 year degree to Doctorate of Opticianary. Which will never happen. OD will still provide most of the eye care to the public.

Now onto the main issue which is the over-supply of ODs and new schools opening. I agree there, this is what hurting the optometry most. Oversupply is what most should fear. Walmart and similar places and private practices have too many options in terms of who they can hire, they dictate the terms because there are many others lined up for the same job. Only cure is practice somewhere were your services are needed, there are several cold provinces in need of everyone including OD. Not sure about US

Originally Posted by q1we3

Now onto the main issue which is the over-supply of ODs and new schools opening. I agree there, this is what hurting the optometry most. Oversupply is what most should fear. Walmart and similar places and private practices have too many options in terms of who they can hire, they dictate the terms because there are many others lined up for the same job. Only cure is practice somewhere were your services are needed, there are several cold provinces in need of everyone including OD. Not sure about US

There is an element of truth to what you're saying, but the problem of oversupply is only the input of the whole crap heap. If the oversupply problem were to vanish instantly by half the ODs in the US retiring all at once, the devaluation of optometric services would still exist and would take a long time to be corrected. We've trashed the value of our services by allowing corporations to hijack ODs for the purpose of selling their materials. That won't be corrected at any time in the near future, whether you're in rural Nebraska or NYC.

Tippytoe's statement is absolutely correct - most of the pre-ODs on this site are talking about optometry as it existed 25+ years ago, not as it exists today, but they won't realize it until it's far too late to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Jason K

There is an element of truth to what you're saying, but the problem of oversupply is only the input of the whole crap heap. If the oversupply problem were to vanish instantly by half the ODs in the US retiring all at once, the devaluation of optometric services would still exist and would take a long time to be corrected. We've trashed the value of our services by allowing corporations to hijack ODs for the purpose of selling their materials. That won't be corrected at any time in the near future, whether you're in rural Nebraska or NYC.

Oversupply is the main reason for devaluation. If there was a demand or supply of optometrist was under control, a new graduate could walk into these optical giants and say I am working 5 days, no evenings, I am not selling any material, I want my separate office, I expect to get paid this much etc. etc. and the store would say Yes, Sir!

But, that is not the case (at least in most places). Corporations are not hijacking ODs, these ODs have no other choice in most cases. Too much student loan to start own practice, too much competition from established practices, private practices not hiring, so 70k at Walmart looks like a dream come true.

Now lets contrast that with real life example of place where there is shortage of all doctors and services. Place called Saskoptical in Saskatoon (Canada) has been looking for an OD for about 18 months now. Check the posting on carrerjet, its been there for many months. They are willing to offer you all the perks with 6 figure base salary without the need of selling anything. But, more importantly you will be treated with respect you deserve. This is how it should be.

And It will only happen when number of seats in each school are reduced by half, standards for admission are raised and no new school are opened for the next decade or two.

This will only happen if people like Jason, Tippytoe and future ODs who understand the issues get more involved politically. Let their voices be heard at upper levels and actually be responsible for making decisions about the future of Optometry. But, too many people instead of helping fix the problem just ignore it (i am not paying any fees or going to the meetings). Their mentality " hey I have lived my life, not my problem anymore" If this profession was led by few unselfish souls we would not be in this mess.

Originally Posted by Jason K

You guys really should read up on the realities of optometry. My number one concern on this site is that the perception of optometry's reality is totally inappropriate considering what the profession offers currently.

In most situations these days, you can't choose your own hours. You're at the mercy of what your employer needs - that means nights and weekends. Also, as an OD, you absolutely can be on call. If you're one of the lucky few that is able to find a FT or PT position in a private office, you're very likely going to take the call that the senior doc(s) don't want to take. Granted, the call you'll take as an OD is very different than that of an ER doc or surgeon. The point is, optometry is not going to be what you're picturing.

In most cases, careers that pay well, but offer high flexibility are those which involve offering a service or product that is in high demand relative to supply. Optometry is not one of those professions right now. If you choose an OD as a path, be prepared to work hours that you don't want on days that you don't want in environments that you don't like for pay that's lower than you expect. That's the future for many, if not most ODs coming out of programs these days.

Do you seriously have nothing better to do than to live on these forums to discourage all future optometrists? If I was you, I'd quit my job, go back to school, and become something else if I was so unhappy. I know plenty of PhDs and JDs who went back to school to change professions. Otherwise, quit whining, it's getting old. I am also friends with lots of NEW optometrists (i.e. people who just graduated last year) who are really happy with their work and life situation.

Yes, I would still go to optometry school.
-I am an optician with over 10 years of retail experience, the last 5 years as an optical manager. With that kind of experience, I will be far more happy managing my own private practice and optical shop as an OD than working as an OMD.
-With my optician experience, I will be able to communicate more effectively with a staff of opticians in a private practice optical setting.
-One of the biggest obstacles that OD's struggle with is effective business management experience, and that is my key strength.

Originally Posted by q1we3

Now lets contrast that with real life example of place where there is shortage of all doctors and services. Place called Saskoptical in Saskatoon (Canada) has been looking for an OD for about 18 months now. Check the posting on carrerjet, its been there for many months. They are willing to offer you all the perks with 6 figure base salary without the need of selling anything. But, more importantly you will be treated with respect you deserve. This is how it should be.

This is highly suspect. If the place you are speaking about is such a great deal, there would never be an opening. The first OD that ever worked there would still be there. He would hold on to this prize position for life. http://www.saskatoonoptical.ca/about...g-about-07.jpg

This is a tiny litte optician office looking for an eyeglass prescription writer so he can make all the money on selling eyeglasses (instead of the OD......so basically you would be doing all the work and the optician would make more than your exam fee in about 5 minutes of selling eyewear.. These scenerios are a dime a dozen and rarely work out in the OD's favor in the long-term.

And It will only happen when number of seats in each school are reduced by half, standards for admission are raised and no new school are opened for the next decade or two.
This will only happen if people like Jason, Tippytoe and future ODs who understand the issues get more involved politically. Let their voices be heard at upper levels and actually be responsible for making decisions about the future of Optometry. But, too many people instead of helping fix the problem just ignore it (i am not paying any fees or going to the meetings). Their mentality " hey I have lived my life, not my problem anymore" If this profession was led by few unselfish souls we would not be in this mess.

And what makes you think either me or Jason has not been involved politically in optometry? I can assure you I have. It's all about money. No involvement, no matter how altrustic will make a difference. Trust me on this one.

And I still get baffled at how pre-opt student seem to have it all figured out. I'm just wondering, would you go onto an engineering site or perhaps auto mechanics site and tell them you have everything figured out in their chosen profession? I sure wouldn't. I know my limitations and I know 'what I don't know'. Just makes me wonder about the boldness and forthright arrogance of the posters. Seriously, I'm very confused about it.

Perhaps some high school, college or OD student could chime in and tell me how you know more than a person that has been doing it for 15 years (graduated OD school, attained fellowship in the academy, written journal articles, run a business, met payroll (ie. supports 5 employees and their families), runs an optical, treats eye disease, pays enormous business taxes, purchased commercial real estate, lectures to colleagues, teaches at a medical school, etc...)

Now how exactly does this compare to being an undergraduate and perhaps working part-time at Lenscrafters selling the "perpetual 50% off " eyeglasses??

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

And what makes you think either me or Jason has not been involved politically in optometry? I can assure you I have. It's all about money. No involvement, no matter how altrustic will make a difference. Trust me on this one.

And I still get baffled at how pre-opt student seem to have it all figured out. I'm just wondering, would you go onto an engineering site or perhaps auto mechanics site and tell them you have everything figured out in their chosen profession? I sure wouldn't. I know my limitations and I know 'what I don't know'. Just makes me wonder about the boldness and forthright arrogance of the posters. Seriously, I'm very confused about it.

Perhaps some high school, college or OD student could chime in and tell me how you know more than a person that has been doing it for 15 years (graduated OD school, attained fellowship in the academy, written journal articles, run a business, met payroll (ie. supports 5 employees and their families), runs an optical, treats eye disease, pays enormous business taxes, purchased commercial real estate, lectures to colleagues, teaches at a medical school, etc...)

Now how exactly does this compare to being an undergraduate and perhaps working part-time at Lenscrafters selling the "perpetual 50% off " eyeglasses??

Now where I did I say you specifically didn't get involved. I said more people who are unhappy with their lives need to question people in-charge of the future of optometry, mainly AOA. These are the people who are responsible for your miseries. Most of the OD students want nothing to with AOA, that is only going to make things worse. But, who cares we are doomed anyways, right?

Originally Posted by tippymoron

why is tippyMORON always trying to convince students to not pursue optometry?

Because he doesn't want students to steal his business.....

Do you honestly think that teaching at a medical school makes you more qualified as an Optometrist?

Or do you honestly think that changing your font to the color red will make your post's more read-worthy?

I guess about the only thing left to do, after I've kicked my kids out of my house and bought a cool mustang is to post on SDN. You need professional help....maybe try the medical school you teach, I'm sure they can help out a fellow employee.

Emily ... You need a hobby.

Originally Posted by tippymoron

why is tippyMORON always trying to convince students to not pursue optometry?

Because he doesn't want students to steal his business.....

Do you honestly think that teaching at a medical school makes you more qualified as an Optometrist?

Or do you honestly think that changing your font to the color red will make your post's more read-worthy?

I guess about the only thing left to do, after I've kicked my kids out of my house and bought a cool mustang is to post on SDN. You need professional help....maybe try the medical school you teach, I'm sure they can help out a fellow employee.

Creating an account just to troll another user is one of the most pathetic things I've seen.

Originally Posted by q1we3

Oversupply is the main reason for devaluation. If there was a demand or supply of optometrist was under control, a new graduate could walk into these optical giants and say I am working 5 days, no evenings, I am not selling any material, I want my separate office, I expect to get paid this much etc. etc. and the store would say Yes, Sir!

My point was - oversupply is the feeder into the systematic downfall of the profession. It is hardly the only or even the main problem. It is only the match that has ignited the forest fire and continues to cause it to burn in new places. From the outside, oversupply looks like it's the only thing going on, but it's not.

Originally Posted by q1we3

But, that is not the case (at least in most places). Corporations are not hijacking ODs, these ODs have no other choice in most cases. Too much student loan to start own practice, too much competition from established practices, private practices not hiring, so 70k at Walmart looks like a dream come true.

Corporations are not really hijacking ODs, you're right, they're hijacking the entire profession by receiving the flood of new ODs that has nowhere else to go but commercial. The corporate model has changed and continues to change the profession and it's hardly for the better. Historically, they've offered employed ODs good pay with good benefits. As the oversupply problem continues to worsen and demand continues to drop, that will change. It will necessarily follow basic economic principals.

Originally Posted by M281384

Do you seriously have nothing better to do than to live on these forums to discourage all future optometrists? If I was you, I'd quit my job, go back to school, and become something else if I was so unhappy. I know plenty of PhDs and JDs who went back to school to change professions. Otherwise, quit whining, it's getting old. I am also friends with lots of NEW optometrists (i.e. people who just graduated last year) who are really happy with their work and life situation.

I don't live on these forums. I live in a small, semi-dumpy 3 BR house and I drive a car with an oil leak that I can't afford to fix since it would set me back more than the car is worth. That's what you guys have to look forward to as an OD. I don't want to be rich, but I'd love to not have to worry about month to month finances at my age. Your new optometrist friends have yet to realize the pile of crap they've jumped into. It usually takes a year or two to burn out and see that the 100K you're getting from America's Ass or Cohen's Ploptical is not nearly enough to justify the slime you're doing.

If you can have your friends explain how they managed to go back to school after racking up 200K in educational debt that can't be escaped, please do tell. As for me, I've got to keep making payments. It's a little difficult to stop earning an income, go back to school, and continue supporting your family. If you can explain how that can be done through one of your "plenty" of friends, please enlighten us all.

Originally Posted by Jason K

I don't live on these forums. I live in a small, semi-dumpy 3 BR house and I drive a car with an oil leak that I can't afford to fix since it would set me back more than the car is worth. That's what you guys have to look forward to as an OD. I don't want to be rich, but I'd love to not have to worry about month to month finances at my age. Your new optometrist friends have yet to realize the pile of crap they've jumped into. It usually takes a year or two to burn out and see that the 100K you're getting from America's Ass or Cohen's Ploptical is not nearly enough to justify the slime you're doing.

If you can have your friends explain how they managed to go back to school after racking up 200K in educational debt that can't be escaped, please do tell. As for me, I've got to keep making payments. It's a little difficult to stop earning an income, go back to school, and continue supporting your family. If you can explain how that can be done through one of your "plenty" of friends, please enlighten us all.

so you can afford a 3bd house but not a car that works?

Originally Posted by optohopeful123

so you can afford a 3bd house but not a car that works?

My car works fine - it just leaks a lot of oil. That was a brilliant piece of detective work, though. Keep your trolling going - it's very beneficial to the discussion and adds greatly to people's understanding of the profession and what it entails.

Originally Posted by Jason K

I don't live on these forums. I live in a small, semi-dumpy 3 BR house and I drive a car with an oil leak that I can't afford to fix since it would set me back more than the car is worth. That's what you guys have to look forward to as an OD. I don't want to be rich, but I'd love to not have to worry about month to month finances at my age. Your new optometrist friends have yet to realize the pile of crap they've jumped into. It usually takes a year or two to burn out and see that the 100K you're getting from America's Ass or Cohen's Ploptical is not nearly enough to justify the slime you're doing.

If you can have your friends explain how they managed to go back to school after racking up 200K in educational debt that can't be escaped, please do tell. As for me, I've got to keep making payments. It's a little difficult to stop earning an income, go back to school, and continue supporting your family. If you can explain how that can be done through one of your "plenty" of friends, please enlighten us all.

How much loan did you exactly rack up? I am assuming around 250k, that is a huge burden.What is payment plan like, are you trying to pay it early or stretching it into 20-30 years?

Many of the students I talk too are getting help financially from the family and by help I mean most of it is paid by the parents. Most of students have families with deep pockets and these are the ones who ultimately end up owing their own practices. I know it isn't fair for those who aren't rich but who said life is fair?

Did you start a family before finding a ideal setting for yourself in terms of practicing? That much loan and early family commitment is a recipe for disaster. Especially for a male. Hopefully, we can learn from your mistakes.

Originally Posted by Jason K

My car works fine - it just leaks a lot of oil. That was a brilliant piece of detective work, though. Keep your trolling going - it's very beneficial to the discussion and adds greatly to people's understanding of the profession and what it entails.

excuse me i didnt know that working fine=complaining of leaking oil.

Originally Posted by q1we3

Did you start a family before finding a ideal setting for yourself in terms of practicing? That much loan and early family commitment is a recipe for disaster. Especially for a male. Hopefully, we can learn from your mistakes.

I currently earn about $2k/month before taxes while I'm waiting for school to start. My wife, son, and I have everything we need and get by just fine through budgeting. I paid off my car that had an oil leak (but I climbed under it and fixed it).

It can be done.

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

I currently earn about $2k/month before taxes while I'm waiting for school to start. My wife, son, and I have everything we need and get by just fine through budgeting. I paid off my car that had an oil leak (but I climbed under it and fixed it).

It can be done.

You people refuse to understand logic. I can "get by" on $1000 per month. My family could eat Ramen noodles for 10 cents a meal. We could live in a rented room in someone's home like an immigrant family. We could ride bikes instead of using a car. The point is, most people who go to optometry school don't want to graduate after 8-10 years of expensive schooling and "get by." If you can live on 2K per month, good for you. Get used to it - you'll likely not be making much more than that after you graduate after you account for your loan payments. If you are content being perpetually poor, there are much easier ways to do it than getting an OD.

But you go ahead and come back with how you're "Doing optometry because you love helping people" or whatever it is that everyone always quotes on here. Let me know how it works out for you when you're working 3-4 PT independent contractor positions at a Sam's Club, a Walmart, a Pearle Vision, and some optician's office for $36/hr, buying your own health insurance, paying self-employment taxes, paying your student loans, and being told what you can and can't do by someone wearing a blue vest and yellow smiley button.

Go into optometry for all the things you believe it entails these days - I dare you.

Originally Posted by Jason K

You people refuse to understand logic. I can "get by" on $1000 per month. My family could eat Ramen noodles for 10 cents a meal. We could live in a rented room in someone's home like an immigrant family. We could ride bikes instead of using a car. The point is, most people who go to optometry school don't want to graduate after 8-10 years of expensive schooling and "get by." If you can live on 2K per month, good for you. Get used to it - you'll likely not be making much more than that after you graduate.

Your comments are so outlandish and ignorant that I seriously sometimes wonder how you are not banned yet for trolling. You have been doing this for months. I'm sorry but the per diem (per day) rate for ODs is ~$350-$500 so even if we use the lower rate at $350 a day then it would take less than 6 days of work to make $2000. Yes, yes loans, blah blah blah, so go work for 12 days to make another $2000 to pay your loans. Or 18 to make another $2000 just for fun and/or to pay taxes.

Damn I just fed the troll. I prepare for your verdant reply. I have a friend just like you that will ignorantly defend anything they say even though their logic makes no sense. But they just spew out a barrage of senseless words in order to hide their lack of understanding.

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

I currently earn about $2k/month before taxes while I'm waiting for school to start. My wife, son, and I have everything we need and get by just fine through budgeting. I paid off my car that had an oil leak (but I climbed under it and fixed it).

It can be done.

As to you sir,

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Your comments are so outlandish and ignorant that I seriously sometimes wonder how you are not banned yet for trolling. You have been doing this for months. I'm sorry but the per diem (per day) rate for ODs is ~$350-$500 so even if we use the lower rate at $350 a day then it would take less than 6 days of work to make $2000. Yes, yes loans, blah blah blah, so go work for 12 days to make another $2000 to pay your loans. Or 18 to make another $2000 just for fun and/or to pay taxes.

The hilarity continues. Outlandish and ignorant? Really? Just because someone points out that you're completely wrong doesn't make that person a troll. What exactly is it about my posts that make them "troll-like?" Simply not understanding the realities of optometry and what you can expect doesn't entitle you to label others as trolls. 350 is on the higher end of the pay scale for per diem work. I don't know where you got your range of 350 on the low to 500 on the high - it's wrong. Check your numbers again with an average of about 325 to 350. That's more accurate. Also consider that the current average per diem pay is the same today as it was 15 years ago....and it's only going to decrease as more and more ODs are shot out of the OD cannons. I don't know a single OD, in any state, who's been out for less than 10 years and makes per diem of 500 per day. It's possible to make that in a comission-based setting, but not common. If you expect to make anywhere near that amount, you're simply dreaming.

Shnurek, you live at home with mom and dad. The fact that my numbers make you think I'm trolling demonstrates that you don't understand personal finances. You've never had to pay bills on your own. If you bring home 4K per month before you pay rent/mortgage, save for the future, pay bills, student loans, and expenses, you'd understand that my figures aren't far from reality. Since you live in a dream world where mom cuts the crusts of your sandwiches for you, you don't understand that. You will in time, however.

I love how these discussions invariably turn into "I can live comfortably on 2K per month, 1K per month....etc." Guess what, there are people in the Amazon who live on nothing per month. They live on trading grains, dead bugs, and fur pelts or whatever the heck it is they can grow in the front yard. You guys need to grow up, join the adult world and then maybe you can have your opinions make sense.

Life's expensive. You just haven't had to pay for it yet. Things will be very different when the number hands reaching into your pocket every month increases beyond the two that belong to you.

Jason, lets imagine instead of graduation with 200+k loan you didn't have any or maybe 50k. How would that have changed your situation. Do you think you would be still in the same situation as you are right now?

Originally Posted by q1we3

Jason, lets imagine instead of graduation with 200+k loan you didn't have any or maybe 50k. How would that have changed your situation. Do you think you would be still in the same situation as you are right now?

You guys don't get it. My situation is not why I'm on here. I'm on here because of where the profession is heading. It's obvious to those of us who know enough to see what's plainly sitting in front of our eyes. If I owed 50K instead of 200K, yes, I'd be in a much better position, but optometry wouldn't be any different and it's future would be unchanged. I'm not on here because I'm unhappy - I'm leaving optometry and I'll never look back. There will be many who leave after me given all that's going to happen.

Originally Posted by Jason K

You guys don't get it. My situation is not why I'm on here. I'm on here because of where the profession is heading. It's obvious to those of us who know enough to see what's plainly sitting in front of our eyes. If I owed 50K instead of 200K, yes, I'd be in a much better position, but optometry wouldn't be any different and it's future would be unchanged. I'm not on here because I'm unhappy - I'm leaving optometry and I'll never look back. There will be many who leave after me given all that's going to happen.

And as I've said, I will be long retired by the time most on here graduate with their OD degrees. So I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I've done fine by optometry. I got in at the right time. But the writing is on the wall. It just doesn't take PhD in Theoretical Physics to see where optometry is heading.

* After 30 years with 18-19 OD schools, we suddenly have 4-5 more (with no significant increase in population or demand).

* With the internet we now have MANY more people/business trying to share in the optical marketplace.

* With shrinking national/state finances, Medicare and Medicaid will continue to be cut which in turn will result in private insurances cutting reimbursement as well. Already we've taken a 50% cut in some Medicare procedures.

Vision insurance is shrinking as well. VSP, optometry's largest and oldest vision plan is falling apart before our very eyes. Reimbursement is shrinking and they've opened up to most every commerical place. They are now selling their own CLs and glasses, cutting out the middle man (ODs).

And there's more......

So any thinking person can see that the future is not bright for optometry in general.

tippytoe and jasonk, what advice would you give us crazy kids who still want to do optometry?

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

So any thinking person can see that the future is not bright for optometry in general.

So all the people in my school with an average GPA of 3.5 are all morons and should have done MD or something else. I get it. What was optometry's average matriculant GPA when you started school? Right now I believe it is 3.3.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

So all the people in my school with an average GPA of 3.5 are all morons and should have done MD or something else. I get it. What was optometry's average matriculant GPA when you started school? Right now I believe it is 3.3.

You're not morons, but you probably know very little about the business of eyecare.

Originally Posted by optohopeful123

tippytoe and jasonk, what advice would you give us crazy kids who still want to do optometry?

Learn what optometry actually is instead of insisting it exists as you think it does. On every thread in which pre-ops are describing why they want to go into optometry, they cite reasons which are unfounded in reality most of the time and as Tippytoe pointed out, usually refer to optometry as it existed in the 80s.

Originally Posted by optohopeful123

tippytoe and jasonk, what advice would you give us crazy kids who still want to do optometry?

I would say if you want to go into optometry, then go for it.

But just know the image of a nice, independent private OD office where you go in at 9 am and leave at 5 pm, and sell many glasses and CLs for a 200% markup (true numbers from years ago), where you are respected by your patients and colleagues, and where patients will gladly pay you a resonable fee for your service/knowledge......is over.

Optometry will be much like pharmacy. Future ODs will be working in a small space in a store from 8 am till 8 pm with a 30 minute lunch break (I actually saw this sign in the pharmacy...the PharmD gets 1/2 for lunch). Because low price is always the goal, ODs income will continue to drop. Unlike pharmacy, where meds are sold only in the pharmacy (and now a little online), optical goods are sold on every street corner, flea market, box store, nail/hair salon, convienence store, OMD office, opticians office, OD office, online sites, drug stores, etc... So pharmacy at least has some control over their product. All we are really going to have is our services......and they will be greatly cheapened.

I'd imagine average income for ODs will be around $60,000 as the supply GREATLY exceeds the demand. (there is no other logical outcome with the current increase in the number of graduates).

So in essence, the corporations that will be hiring ODs will be in the position to pick and choose. ODs will NEED a job to pay back the enormous school loans and to live so they will take whatever they can get (can't blame them right?).

But $60,000 will be about $40,000 after taxes. After $2,000 month school loans you'll be left with with about $1,300/month to buy a house, car, retirement, insurance and food. And just for the record, private medical insurance currently costs me and my family $1,000 per month with a $6,000 deductible (meaning I pay everything up until I met the $6,000). And it goes up every year.

So if you have rich family that you will inherit money from and want to do optometry for fun and social value, go for it. If you expect to make a decent doctor income as an optometrist in 2020, you may be very disappointed. I suppose there will always be a few position in the VA, miitary and Indian health services. But they will become much more competitive for sure.

I see no other future. In 2008 it was estimated that we had 34,800 ODs in the US. The BLS (gov't) predicted 43,200 by 2018 BEFORE the opening of 5 more OD schools. (that's 840 additional ODs per year before the new schools). Add in the new schools and we are looking at 1,340 (500 + 840) new ODs added to the system by the year 2020. (This is a net gain already taken deaths and retirement into account).

Probably 95% of OD already think we have a surplus of ODs. Now we are going to add 1,340 MORE ODs per year.

Looking at it another way: There are 40,000 ODs in 2011. There will be 48,000 in 2020. The population of the US is 312,000 in 2011. It is predicted to be 341,000 in 2020
( 29,000 difference).

So.............. that 29,000 people divided by 8,000 more ODs = 3.6 patients per new OD.

So every new OD will have 3 new patients to see per year. Hard to make a living on three patients.


But for the sake of argument we could play a game and pretend the future will be different. What if every 312,000 man, woman and child in the US decide they need an eye exam every year? What if the gov't decides to pay $200 for an eye exam to every OD? What if the gov't decides to forgive all student loans?
If the above happens, there will be a bright future for ODs. But I'm betting there is less than a
0.0001 % chance this will happen.

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

Looking at it another way: There are 40,000 ODs in 2011. There will be 48,000 in 2020. The population of the US is 312,000 in 2011. It is predicted to be 341,000 in 2020
( 29,000 difference).

So.............. that 29,000 people divided by 8,000 more ODs = 3.6 patients per new OD.

You want to reconsider/redefine what these numbers are? You mean the population will grow by that much?

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

You want to reconsider/redefine what these numbers are? You mean the population will grow by that much?

U.S. POPULATION PROJECTIONS
2010 US population ~310,233,000 *

2020 US population ~ 341,387,000*2030373,504,00032%2040405,655,000 44%2050439,010,00055%010%2020341,387,00021%2030373,504,00032%2040405,655,000 44%2050439,010,00055%
Source: U.S. Census Bureau

The old rule of thumb for optometrist-to-population ratio varies from 1:5,000 to 1:8,000 in urban area to 1:25,000 to 1:40,000 in rural areas. Source: Business Aspect of Optometry, John Classe. 1997

As we can see, based on the projected numbers, there will be roughly 1 OD for every 7,000 patients in the US (IF EVERY SINGLE PERSON GOT AN EYE EXAM). But as I said, this ratio is greatly outdated because it doesn't account for the fact that ODs are much more efficient (thanks to advanced instrumentation and lowering reimbursements) And it doesn't take into account ophthalmologist population. So it's more accurate to simply count ECP (eye care providers) per area and divide by local population.

My area has gone from 30 ODs in 1998 to 50 in 2011. Population has gone from 290,000 to 310 ,000 during this time. We have 20 Ophthalmologists.

Oh yea, for the record (and from the same book I highly recommend), average income for a new grad in 1994 was $47,300. Average school debt was $40,00-$60,000. So it was basically one years salary to pay off your debt.

Nowadays the avg new income is about $75,000 and school debt is $200,000.......so it's 2.5 times as much now. And again, this is still in the 'good ole days'. None of this takes into account 500 additional OD gradutates each year. Which means 10 new additional ODs per state, per year......for ever?? In 5 years, each state will have (at least) 50 additional ODs than they have now (that is plus the roughly 1,100 or 22 per state that currently graduate each year). So now each state will have to absorb 77 newly minted optometrists per every single year! There is, on average, 800 ODs per state currently. So 77 + 77 + 77 + 77 +77 +77 + 77.......see where it's all going. And ODs typically work until they are 95 years old and propped up beside the phoropter with a cane.

Where will they all go? THAT is the question. There simply isn't enough Walmarts currently. But maybe they are planning on building 10 news one in each state every year. That's a possiblity.

You do realize those projections are in thousands, right?

There are ~310,000,000 people in the USA right now.

That means your projections mean 3600 patients for every new graduate...not 3.6 and 1 OD for every 7000 patients.

I seriously hope this was just an oversight and not an intentional and blatantly bad stat trying to prove your point.

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

You do realize those projections are in thousands, right?

There are ~310,000,000 people in the USA right now.

That means your projections mean 3600 patients for every new graduate...not 3.6 and 1 OD for every 7000 patients.

I seriously hope this was just an oversight and not an intentional and blatantly bad stat trying to prove your point.

Yes. Yes. The population in the US is in the millions--- 310,000.000, projected to be 341 million in 2020.

The numbers, or should I say the concept, is the same. Any way you add it, there is a vast oversupply.

1:7,000 ratio might look adequate. But we must remember that less than half of the population get their eyes checked on a regular basis. So the ratio is misleading. Additionally, there are 24,000 ophthalmologists. So the ratio really drops to 1: 4,700 ECPs. Take half of that for the people that actually MIGHT get an eye exam\ and you have the true ratio of 1 eye doctor for every 2,300 patients.

Going further, if you can sucker (I mean convince) every one of your patients to come every other year and you can manage an exam fee of $100 (highly unlikely and we are forgeting optical because it will be gone), then you could pull off a practice gross of $115,000/yr. Taking your 30% gross will put you at a $34,500 net income. Not bad since you will be only seeing 4 patients per day.

I may be off......but probably not by much.....sadly. I wish it was going to be different.

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

Yes. Yes. The population in the US is in the millions--- 310,000.000, projected to be 341 million in 2020.

The numbers, or should I say the concept, is the same. .

I was confused like cgrblue on how he came up with 3.6 patients/per OD. Population is going up in millions and you are dividing 29000 by increased number of ODs instead of 29 million. No wonder you came up with the number 3.6 which is obviously not correct.
There is a big difference in 3.6 patients/OD when compared to 7000 patients/OD. How can you even think 3 patients per OD could be anywhere near the truth. Based on the same argument if half don't get the exam etc etc etc. 3.6/2 etc etc you will end up with a number near 0. So 0 patients per OD. First you bring up numbers then when yours numbers are incorrect you switch to concept is the same.

man, I wish KHE didn't leave

Originally Posted by optohopeful123

man, I wish KHE didn't leave

You miss his overly optimistic perspective?

The consistent theme on this forum is that pre opts agree with any post that supports an optimistic future for optometry, and they challenge any post that looks at all negative.

Believe what you want, but the truth is that there is an oversupply of ODs in most cities of any size and adding new schools will not help the situation.

Another problem, that you may not have considered, is that most of us already in practice will probably not retire as young as you might be thinking. We took a beating in the stock market over the past few years and it will take awhile to rebuild those retirement portfolios. Anyone who is self employed has got to fund their own retirement, something you may not take into account when calculating what you need to get by. And we have to pay twice the social security tax as everyone else, in the form of self employment tax.

Most of you will have to manage more debt than you can comfortably manage, and any posts from optometry students that suggest tuitions will go lower are plain nonsense. This only show a total lack of understanding of economics. Why do the new schools charge more than some of the established schools? Because they can.

You will be practicing optometry, not medicine, and if you don't know the difference, you are setting yourselves up for great disappointment. We don't save lives every day. The work is largely providing good vision, not treating eye diseases. And even if you went to medical school, there is no guarantee you'd get an ophthalmology residency. They are limited and go to some of the best students.

If you can live with these issues, great, become an optometrist.

If not, quit lying to yourselves about how rosy the future of optometry is going to be and find another profession to pursue.

Originally Posted by CL Doc

Believe what you want, but the truth is that there is an oversupply of ODs in most cities of any size

And we have to pay twice the social security tax as everyone else, in the form of self employment tax.

Most of you will have to manage more debt than you can comfortably manage

You will be practicing optometry, not medicine, and if you don't know the difference, you are setting yourselves up for great disappointment. We don't save lives every day. The work is largely providing good vision, not treating eye diseases.

Very good post, thanks.

Originally Posted by q1we3

I was confused like cgrblue on how he came up with 3.6 patients/per OD. Population is going up in millions and you are dividing 29000 by increased number of ODs instead of 29 million. No wonder you came up with the number 3.6 which is obviously not correct.
There is a big difference in 3.6 patients/OD when compared to 7000 patients/OD. How can you even think 3 patients per OD could be anywhere near the truth. Based on the same argument if half don't get the exam etc etc etc. 3.6/2 etc etc you will end up with a number near 0. So 0 patients per OD. First you bring up numbers then when yours numbers are incorrect you switch to concept is the same.

The numbers are correct now.
Please don't hate the messenger. If you want to be mad, get mad at the school admistrators and the corporations for pushing for more schools. Get mad at the ODs that accept crap vision plans and allow them to floursih. Get mad at on-line Chinese vendors taking money away from OD offices.

I didn't put optometry in the state that it's in now. Your anger is misdirected at my poor math skills .

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. This fax just came to my office yesterday. It is the insurance benefits for an older lady that has Medicare. Well she used to until some slimy insurance saleman suckered into this 'new and better' Medicare plan:

Notice the eye exam pays $45. And she will likley not get new glasses as old people like to keep theirs for 5 or more years or if she has been to a good surgeon and has IOLs she will only need drug store reading glasses. So out of that $45 exam fee, you will net $13.50 (30% but you'd better check my math). So your first 148 patients you see every month (if you can see that many) will go to pay your school loans. Isn't that special? (in the voice of the ch lady--and if your too young to get that well.......never mind).

And I'm betting your school will never go over this kind of math with you. They didn't for me.



exam fee3.jpg

The original question was about optometry vs medical school. I still say med school if you've got what it takes. They have many of the same problems but at least you will be needed as a primary care family doc.

I'm a recent graduate (2010).

I would say Jason K is a little pessimistic and Tippytoe is realistic.

It's not just optometry that is having problems. Dentistry is currently battling corporate as well. We have dentists in our malls now and there was a dentist office in the Wal-Mart but they shut down due to lack of business. Corporate medicine/Urgent Care is the trend for every health field.

If you plan on practicing optometry in a populated area (ie. Atlanta, LA, D.C.) you're going to have a very very hard time finding a job. There are too many ODs and even if you plan on practicing in a suburb, it's getting saturated as well.

What's making things worse are those cheap vision plans as Tippytoe mentioned. You're reimbursed 40 dollars for a comprehensive eye exam. Corporate ODs are pumping out 40 dollar eye exams in exchange for foot traffic and cheap rent hurt the value of eye examinations and the profession. That's why those vision plans will never raise their reimbursements until ODs start charging what they're worth. But I'm not going to get into private vs corporate battle.

If you can manage your student debt to one year of salary, then go into optometry. But if you're going to have 200k+ in student loans, stop and rethink. My class graduated with an average of 125k in student loans at SCO and that's manageable. I know PCO and ICO have student debt averages much higher 150-200k.

Everyone knows that $45 is what insurance usually pays. MSP in Canada pays excatly the same, you bring no new information. Look, everyone knows that Optometry is not at the same level as medicine in terms of income, respect, and job opportunities. But, not everyone can do medicine or want to do medicine. Should you expect optometry to give you the same benefits of medicine, answer is NO. There is a reason why optometry schools are much easier to get into compared to med school. Optometry is a different route with lower payoff, in most cases. I know that, check my previous posts. I know there is an oversupply. But, sometimes you have to play with the cards you are dealt. Optometry is still better than what I am doing now and will be if I don't go to optometry school. Yes, many will end up commercial, most of us know that and it wouldn't be the end of the world if I did. But, if you keep your loans in check and are flexible in terms of where you can practice, you can make it. You can call me stupid for being slightly optimistic or hopeful, if you wish.

Originally Posted by q1we3

Everyone knows that $45 is what insurance usually pays. MSP in Canada pays excatly the same, you bring no new information. Look, everyone knows that Optometry is not at the same level as medicine in terms of income, respect, and job opportunities. But, not everyone can do medicine or want to do medicine. Should you expect optometry to give you the same benefits of medicine, answer is NO. There is a reason why optometry schools are much easier to get into compared to med school. Optometry is a different route with lower payoff, in most cases. I know that, check my previous posts. I know there is an oversupply. But, sometimes you have to play with the cards you are dealt. Optometry is still better than what I am doing now and will be if I don't go to optometry school. Yes, many will end up commercial, most of us know that and it wouldn't be the end of the world if I did. But, if you keep your loans in check and are flexible in terms of where you can practice, you can make it. You can call me stupid for being slightly optimistic or hopeful, if you wish.

As Tippytoe says..."don't shoot the messenger"

I think most of us (ODs) are here to try to make sure that you know what you're getting into. If you do, I wish nothing but good fortune.

Originally Posted by blazenmadison

I'm a recent graduate (2010).

I would say Jason K is a little pessimistic and Tippytoe is realistic.

It's not just optometry that is having problems. Dentistry is currently battling corporate as well. We have dentists in our malls now and there was a dentist office in the Wal-Mart but they shut down due to lack of business. Corporate medicine/Urgent Care is the trend for every health field.

As you learn more about the profession you're in, you'll see that my "overly pessimistic" view is actually not overly pessimistic at all. You're correct in saying that it's not just optometry that is suffering. Pretty much all areas of health care are taking a hit right now for a variety of reasons. But every time I hear someone say "Dentistry is getting hit just like optometry..." it makes me laugh. Dentistry has taken much better care of itself than optometry. They've done a much better job at keeping out the crap and maintaining their robustness as a profession. Ever wonder why dentists can balance bill patients and we can't? Ever wonder why dentistry has an almost nonexistence of crap, low-paying insurance plans compared to optometry? It all boils down to the people driving the ship. Dentistry is not perfect and it could fall victim just like optometry if it's allowed to do so, but so far, they're taking much better care of themselves than optometry is.

Dentistry is battling corporate forces now and it have been for some time. That just goes to support my point. Optometry is just now starting to push back at those same forces. The time to do it was about 20 years ago, but we just let them have their way with us - there was no battling, no fighting, nobody putting up a struggle. The same forces that have ruined and continue to ruin optometry are working hard to do the same thing to dentistry, but they're met by much more fervent resistance. That's why dentistry is, in my opinion (and oddly enough, the opinion of many other dentists and ODs) a far more solid option for those interested in pursuing a health care career. Is it perfect? Hardly, but it's much better than optometry in terms of outlook.

Optometry is a sinking ship. If you're in school and that's tough to hear, I'm sorry. If you're a pre-opt and you're trying to decide on the OD, well, take the info you read here and do with it whatever you please. Just know that whatever you think optometry is in your mind's eye is probably grossly different than what exists in reality.

Optometry is like a building that looks fine from the outside. When you get inside, though, you start to see signs of problems. Cracks in the walls and floors, broken doorknobs, escalators that don't function, elevators that don't work, janitors that lay around and do nothing, paint falling off the walls, etc, etc. The more floors you examine, the more you see that the building is not being cared for and people are just doing whatever they want to with it. Other buildings on the street have some signs of wear and tear, but they're being much more actively maintained. That's optometry - a building that's just being allowed to fall apart while people live and work in it. If you want to move into the building, just know that the view from the inside is very different from the one you see from the curb.

I think it's human nature to perceive things more the way we want them to be than the way they really are. I know ODs who lie about their practices when talking to interested students. They want things to be better, so they say they are better. Once someone chooses a profession, they don't want to believe it's anything but what they hope it will be. Human nature.