Why is Allopathic school favored over Osteopathic?

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Originally Posted by StudyShy

Oh gawd! I leave for a few months and come back to this?

Welcome back?

Originally Posted by skinMD

med students are a proud bunch. noone's going to admit that and the fact that you did an "informal survey" like that makes me question your social tact (sorry)



seems that we agree at the end of the day. the reason these threads keep going on and on is because there are a handful of DO students that can't admit that US MD should always be the first choice (if there aren't any extenuating circumstances) because their ego is too fragile.

Eh...I asked friends of mine or classmates I know well enough that me asking wouldnt be weird. Ive been on SDN long enough that this issue comes up constantly...and I really was genuinely curious. I am sure some schools with lower stats utilize this policy more heavily than others. PCOM, has students of a high enough caliber that I doubt this really takes place too often at my school.

But yeah we do agree. I am in a hard place in these threads because I am not delusional. I know the MD pathway is the pathway of choice. I am not going to sit here and argue some of the BS points that the "DO diehards" like to bring up...because they are flat out wrong, and a product of (like you said) fragile egos. I know MD students match better and that as a whole MD students have better undergrad stats. There is no point in arguing about factual information. But at the same time, when someone (a premed with no med school experience none the less) insults my future career, and a degree I have worked my ass off toward attaining, its hard not to get sucked into defending myself, my school, and my fellow DO classmates no matter what school they are at.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Agreed...and I really dont trust the "OMM guru" students in my class. Are there some OMM techniques that are generally accepted and used in traditional physical therapy...yes. But unfortunately (at least in my mind) the dubious things that are taught really cast a cloud of doubt over the whole field.

I applied both MD and DO (admittedly DO was backup). however the OMM demo at DMU was what turned me off hard-core. The girl used the words "diagnose" and "treat" as buzzwords with no real meaning.

This is what happened verbatim
"I am going to diagnose the hip"
- pushes on the hip a few times of a supine student. mumbling from time to time about how "messed up" the student was
"ok. I have DIAGNOSED the hip!" (picture a superhero pose for this one
"now, I am going to TREAT the hip!"
again, pushing on the hip... but now also tugging on legs ect....
"alright, I have just treated the hip!"

so we have upper level students who are "diagnosing" issues with no chief complaint, and "treating" these issues with a measure of success identical to "you left just as you came in"..... my head almost popped. I would have felt better if she had even indicated that the other student WOULD have had xxxx issues, but this was a perfectly healthy girl being told she had something out of whack, a few good whacks, and suddenly she is back IN whack


the whole thing struck me as

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

This thread is descending into redundant madness (though I can't help coming back to it every few minutes). People are interjecting to much what if into the numbers. We can bring up all the anecdotal evidence we want but the only truly unbiased way to debate this is with the unmolested numbers.

"what if" is exactly right. I have already typed out and deleted a series of long and overly sarcastic responses to some of those types of statements..... trying to play nice

Originally Posted by willen101383

I dont think anyone is ignoring anything here. MD students are seemingly better at taking standardized tests than DO students....thats a fact. At least you acknowledge the fact that there are excellent DOs out there...something that some posters in this thread seem to ignore.

You just said there the difference between a 27 and a 31 didn't mean anything. That is ignoring the numbers.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

This thread is descending into redundant madness (though I can't help coming back to it every few minutes). People are interjecting to much what if into the numbers. We can bring up all the anecdotal evidence we want but the only truly unbiased way to debate this is with the unmolested numbers.

haha just like EVERY MD vs DO thread. Replying to them is addicting tho isnt it?

Lets just summarize: MD students have better undergrad GPAs and MCATs.

Does this mean they will become better doctors due to these aforementioned stats? In most cases no. I think the only real way to compare med students between MD and DO would be to compare class means in the preclinical coursework...and as far as I know those numbers arent readily available. Cant really use USMLE, since it is NOT our primary board exam, we have 2 exams to worry about, and many DO students take the USMLE for ****s and giggles.

MD students fare better in their own match vs DO students.

Many DO schools have ****ty rotations, many do not (like my sites for the upcoming year).

MD schools should be your first choice, followed by DO schools for the above mentioned reasons.

Many DO schools are more expensive than MD schools....many are not (like mine).

Both pathways have the capacity to produce excellent doctors and largely terminate at the same end point.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

You just said there the difference between a 27 and a 31 didn't mean anything. That is ignoring the numbers.

Im acknowledging the fact that there is a difference. I dont really know what that difference means outside of getting your foot in the door to a med school. My neighbor drives a R32. I drive an MKV GTI. There are differences there. Both cars take us to our destinations which is the purpose of a vehicle.....and thus I dont know what the true difference between our vehicles are.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Im acknowledging the fact that there is a difference. I dont really know what that difference means outside of getting your foot in the door to a med school. My neighbor drives a R32. I drive an MKV GTI. There are differences there. Both cars take us to our destinations which is the purpose of a vehicle.....and thus I dont know what the true difference between our vehicles are.

In this case it is what you make of the vehicle I guess. I have no doubt that you will do fine and beat out several MD students in the future. Can you say that for all of you classmates though?

On a side note
my neighbor is a dentist and upon hearing I got into med school preceded to tell my parent how getting into dental school is harder then med school these days.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

I applied both MD and DO (admittedly DO was backup). however the OMM demo at DMU was what turned me off hard-core. The girl used the words "diagnose" and "treat" as buzzwords with no real meaning.

This is what happened verbatim
"I am going to diagnose the hip"
- pushes on the hip a few times of a supine student. mumbling from time to time about how "messed up" the student was
"ok. I have DIAGNOSED the hip!" (picture a superhero pose for this one
"now, I am going to TREAT the hip!"
again, pushing on the hip... but now also tugging on legs ect....
"alright, I have just treated the hip!"

so we have upper level students who are "diagnosing" issues with no chief complaint, and "treating" these issues with a measure of success identical to "you left just as you came in"..... my head almost popped. I would have felt better if she had even indicated that the other student WOULD have had xxxx issues, but this was a perfectly healthy girl being told she had something out of whack, a few good whacks, and suddenly she is back IN whack


the whole thing struck me as

haha that meme was great....what you summarized above is something that takes place constantlyyyy in the OMM lab. It was obviously a demo on an individual with no real "pathology" (whatever that pathology may be). All of our OMM "training" takes place on lab partners with no real pathology..and thus we have no actual way to quantify whether our "treatments" did anything. At the end of the day OMM is just glorified PT that the AOA has hyped into something more than it is.

If a muscle is in spasm you can reduce that spasm using post isometric relaxation or reciprocal inhibition....both accepted techniques with valid science behind them=physical therapy. If a muscle is tight and thus causing pain and you shorten the length between origin and insertion you reduce the pain. Thats about all the OMM I can say I believe in....anything beyond that is questionable at best. (Keep in mind I will never use any of the techniques I believe in after I walk out the door....okay well maybe to seduce my wife)

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

In this case it is what you make of the vehicle I guess. I have no doubt that you will do fine and beat out several MD students in the future. Can you say that for all of you classmates though?

On a side note
my neighbor is a dentist and upon hearing I got into med school preceded to tell my parent how getting into dental school is harder then med school these days.

another great one that i have had the pleasure to engage in with a few people
its a matter of numbers again. the average dental student may have had a larger pool than the average med student (I dont know that that is true......) however the average medical student would have an easier time getting into dental school than he or she had getting into med school. in an unrelated discussion with someone who said something similar to me I linked out to a series of anecdotal stories of people who were not competative enough to get into med school who decided to go the dentist route instead. the posted numbers MCAT vs DAT were pretty interesting lol (DO guys, this was med student vs dental, not MD vs dental )

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

"what if" is exactly right. I have already typed out and deleted a series of long and overly sarcastic responses to some of those types of statements..... trying to play nice

same.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

In this case it is what you make of the vehicle I guess. I have no doubt that you will do fine and beat out several MD students in the future. Can you say that for all of you classmates though?

On a side note
my neighbor is a dentist and upon hearing I got into med school preceded to tell my parent how getting into dental school is harder then med school these days.

I use mine to repeatedly burn through front tires due to the excessive amount of (modified) horsepower going to two wheels, while he never burns out due to the superior design of AWD. (beating this poor analogy to death).

With regard to beating MD students....I am sure my GPA in med school is better than hundreds if not thousands of MD students across the country. There ARE plenty of classmates that scare me......but this same thing is present at MD schools. Once you step into med school in the fall get back to me on that....bc I guarantee there will be students in your class who will SCARE THE **** out of you. Students that can cram information into their brains, but have zero common sense, which is just as dangerous as not even having that information at all.

I dont have a GPA in med school

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

another great one that i have had the pleasure to engage in with a few people
its a matter of numbers again. the average dental student may have had a larger pool than the average med student (I dont know that that is true......) however the average medical student would have an easier time getting into dental school than he or she had getting into med school. in an unrelated discussion with someone who said something similar to me I linked out to a series of anecdotal stories of people who were not competative enough to get into med school who decided to go the dentist route instead. the posted numbers MCAT vs DAT were pretty interesting lol (DO guys, this was med student vs dental, not MD vs dental )

Everyone always thinks their "program" is the hardest/most cutthroat/most difficult to get into. Ive gotten into this conversation with people in all walks of life: engineering, law school, business. Its fun listening to people justify their pathways in life...SDN or IRL. Think about how many times youve heard/read things like "I would have gone to med school but I dont like blood/guts/poop/pee/etc." Or " I would have gone to med school but I would rather have been a nurse...nurses are the REAL providers of care..blah blah blah." However, we know the real reason you didnt go to med school: you werent intelligent enough/driven enough/etc to go.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

I dont have a GPA in med school

I wish I didnt!!!!!!!

Add to my above summary:

"Most DO schools have GPAs and arent P/F"

There are a number of things that keep some DO's from going MD that are not related to intellectual ability, though we cannot rule this out as a factor.

I swam D3 in college and was pretty good but would never have made a D1 team, ever. I am not ashamed to admit this. Why is intelligence any different?

I will also say this. I am lazy. Times when I should have been studying for my MCAT I was out drinking. I can work on this one though.

People are different. We each have things we can and can't do and things that we need to work on.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Everyone always thinks their "program" is the hardest/most cutthroat/most difficult to get into. Ive gotten into this conversation with people in all walks of life: engineering, law school, business. Its fun listening to people justify their pathways in life...SDN or IRL. Think about how many times youve heard/read things like "I would have gone to med school but I dont like blood/guts/poop/pee/etc." Or " I would have gone to med school but I would rather have been a nurse...nurses are the REAL providers of care..blah blah blah." However, we know the real reason you didnt go to med school: you werent intelligent enough/driven enough/etc to go.

I get that constantly..... most people who say it act as if they would have just walked right in, and you cant come across an old friend from years past without them telling you they "thought about it, but decided not to".... right....

Originally Posted by willen101383

Everyone always thinks their "program" is the hardest/most cutthroat/most difficult to get into. Ive gotten into this conversation with people in all walks of life: engineering, law school, business. Its fun listening to people justify their pathways in life...SDN or IRL. Think about how many times youve heard/read things like "I would have gone to med school but I dont like blood/guts/poop/pee/etc." Or " I would have gone to med school but I would rather have been a nurse...nurses are the REAL providers of care..blah blah blah." However, we know the real reason you didnt go to med school: you werent intelligent enough/driven enough/etc to go.

I wouldn't say this is true in all cases. If you don't want people to hate on DO you shouldn't hate on other professions.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

There are a number of things that keep some DO's from going MD that are not related to intellectual ability, though we cannot rule this out as a factor.

I swam D3 in college and was pretty good but would never have made a D1 team, ever. I am not ashamed to admit this. Why is intelligence any different?

I will also say this. I am lazy. Times when I should have been studying for my MCAT I was out drinking. I can work on this one though.

People are different. We each have things we can and can't do and things that we need to work on.

I like that analogy. I mentioned my case above somewhere in this thread. I had a 2.45 undergrad GPA. Despite the fact that I got my masters with a 3.75 in 70 credits my cumulative GPA was something like a 2.9. AFAIK my masters credits wouldnt have even budged that undergrad GPA...making my AMCAS GPA 2.45. Would never have had my application make it past the secretary despite my 10 years of full time clinical experience and great masters GPA. Its a fact. No excuses made. I never would have gotten into an MD with that undergrad cloud over my head. I wasnt going to do a SMP or retake all of undergrad. My intelligence wasnt the issue. Med school acceptance is a game. You need to strategize the best you can and play the game to the best of your ability. Thats all there is to it. PCOM FTW in my case. No shame....I get to be a doctor.

Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

I wouldn't say this is true in all cases. If you don't want people to hate on DO you shouldn't hate on other professions.

Sure, its probably not in ALL cases...just in the majority. Not hating on professions...just on certain people for not coming clean for their true reasons. Just like I hate on DO students who make BS claims for the reason they went to a DO school.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Sure, its probably not in ALL cases...just in the majority. Not hating on professions...just on certain people for not coming clean for their true reasons. Just like I hate on DO students who make BS claims for the reason they went to a DO school.

at that same unfortunate DMU interview I went to, the other applicants sat down in a pow-wow while waiting for the actual interview and just hated on MDs and MD programs for about a half hour. The fact that they had an average 25 mcat between them was strangely absent from the list of reasons.... sorry, there was no non-snarky way to put that

guys cut this bullsht out

Originally Posted by willen101383

I like that analogy. I mentioned my case above somewhere in this thread. I had a 2.45 undergrad GPA. Despite the fact that I got my masters with a 3.75 in 70 credits my cumulative GPA was something like a 2.9. AFAIK my masters credits wouldnt have even budged that undergrad GPA...making my AMCAS GPA 2.45. Would never have had my application make it past the secretary despite my 10 years of full time clinical experience and great masters GPA. Its a fact. No excuses made. I never would have gotten into an MD with that undergrad cloud over my head. I wasnt going to do a SMP or retake all of undergrad. My intelligence wasnt the issue. Med school acceptance is a game. You need to strategize the best you can and play the game to the best of your ability. Thats all there is to it. PCOM FTW in my case. No shame....I get to be a doctor.

I agree. I think that what other's were trying to say albeit with less tact is that this is not true for every DO student though and that if you take the average MD student and compare him to the average DO student intellectual capacity comes into play.

Originally Posted by Frazier

Actually, now that you pointed it out, pretty damn funny how hypocritical he can be.

Do you even have anything of substance to add to this thread? If not, respectably shut up and stop posting.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

at that same unfortunate DMU interview I went to, the other applicants sat down in a pow-wow while waiting for the actual interview and just hated on MDs and MD programs for about a half hour. The fact that they had an average 25 mcat between them was strangely absent from the list of reasons.... sorry, there was no non-snarky way to put that

Yup, again its funny listening to certain DO students justify their reasons for not going MD.

Originally Posted by RogueUnicorn

guys cut this bullsht out

awwww, and right when the major players on both sides of the argument were starting to play nice

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

awwww, and right when the major players on both sides of the argument were starting to play nice

Frazier just cant recognize there is a difference between calling people who got into (and excelled more than likely) in med school A. poor workers or B. dumb....and laughing at people who try to make BS excuses for the reasons they would never have gotten accepted to med school whether it be DO or MD.

Thus, I am done responding to his/her posts. You can feel free to put me on ignore too Frazier.

Originally Posted by Frazier

lol I see you do not like being called out.
Sucks to be caught up in your own hypocrisy, eh?

Keep us all updated in the future with how that works out for you.

Best of luck.

I fail to see how that is hypocritical AT ALL. But then again, I am a DO student, and we are all lazy morons...so I wouldnt be expected to have the intellectual capacity to understand where you are coming from right? And again, if you have nothing to add, step out. You have added nothing to this thread.

Originally Posted by Frazier

I have no reason to ignore you. I can't take you or your hypocritical spiels seriously enough... I just scroll through them.

Best of luck.

Same. Good luck with the rest of your college career and whatever else 21 year old kids do these days

Later!

MD = high School jocks
DO = high school theater geeks

Jk


I can really tell a lot of you have a lot of life to learn. You will not get "respect" just because you have a MD or DO. You earn respect. That being said given the option I think MD is best route because the stigma of getting residency/rotations, not because you will be a better doctor. At the end of the day you will hold the same responsibility of patient care. I don't have ambitions to be cardio, surgery, rad or derm. My sites are set on EM so really I would go to a DO if that was the option presented to me. I hold my head high, the title doesn't define you. For every crappy DO we can find a crappy MD.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Sure, its probably not in ALL cases...just in the majority. Not hating on professions...just on certain people for not coming clean for their true reasons. Just like I hate on DO students who make BS claims for the reason they went to a DO school.

What they say may be their true reasons, and they could be doing their profession because they want to, not because they weren't smart enough/driven. I say this is fairly analogous to MD students thinking that DOs aren't smart enough/driven. If you want respect please show respect. I know plenty of smart people going into nursing who could have easily made into MD, let alone DO (means they were more and intelligent and driven then you were, yet we can't judge you based on past performance?). When they site their reasons for not going MD I believe them. I don't assume that they must've wanted to go MD and write them off as dumb...

Honestly that post makes me think if you were MD you would be hating on DOs....

Only brilliant people go to school as MD's haha

From what I found most these pre-meds with high gpa are just great at memorizing, yet suck at concepts. Let's see these pre-meds get through mechanical or electrical engineering, maybe even a physics degree - and maintain gpa>3.8. Most these look at my high gpa in biology kids are just clueless. I'm grossly generalizing, but my point is everything is relative.

This is coming from a ochem TA. Most the brilliant people I come across are a few of the phd students, that are literally doing research for peanuts yet have some serious critical thinking skills at working through problems where there is no set book or instructions for. There is also plenty retarded phd students. I'm getting at is there retards everywhere.

Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

What they say may be their true reasons, and they could be doing their profession because they want to, not because they weren't smart enough/driven. I say this is fairly analogous to MD students thinking that DOs aren't smart enough/driven. If you want respect please show respect. I know plenty of smart people going into nursing who could have easily made into MD, let alone DO (means they were more and intelligent and driven then you were, yet we can't judge you based on past performance?). When they site their reasons for not going MD I believe them. I don't assume that they must've wanted to go MD and write them off as dumb...

Honestly that post makes me think if you were MD you would be hating on DOs....

I respectfully disagree. I cant even begin to see how they can really be compared. In one argument an individual is talking down about people who have made it into med school...and likely are doing fine and will make fine doctors...based on premedical stats that have little/nothing to do with real life med school performance.

In another argument one is poking fun at people who make outlandish claims about their reasons for not even trying to embark on the journey. The similarities between the two are few. The fact is, there ARE plenty of people who simply cannot be doctors because they arent intelligent or driven enough. This goes for ANY career path. Its a fact....and its totally fine. Its just funny to listen to the reasons these people come up with to explain this.

And sure, some people may have gone the nursing route for personal reasons. Remember I am older and had a career before med school...and have met hundreds of nurses. Ive only met a few I think would actually make it through a bachelors degree and into med school. Most are perfectly content in their jobs/qualifications, but ive also met plenty who also like to make interesting claims about why they couldnt make it into med school.

Either way, no disrespect was meant in my generic example, and it was made as a passing comment. Wasnt even something I really put any thought into...although perhaps I should have considering the fact that you and frazier think that me saying it makes me contradictory.

And NO I wouldnt be talking down about DOs. I grew up in a family of MDs in a DO heavy area and my father and all my other relatives that are MDs never had a bad word to say about the DOs they worked with.

Either way, I have contributed all I will contribute to this thread since (as all MD vs DO threads do) we are now just running in circles and resorting to personal attacks (myself included) instead of discussing anything meaningful.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Depends on whether you think success as an undergrad has anything to do with your capacity to be a successful physician. I personally dont think the two correlate at all. Its like people here act like "zomgs you need a 30 or above to be a great physician," which in reality couldnt be further from the truth. Its also like saying, understanding SN2 reactions (thats like the only thing I remember from orgo when i took it in 2002) has some bearing on your med school success. Some people are better at some things than others...and a lot of what is tested as a premed never gets mentioned again in med school (I would say most). Organic and physics sucked for me as an undergrad and I think I got C-s in both....have I see ANY organic chemistry/physics concepts come up in med school.....nope. My inferior knowledge of physics and organic chemistry havent impeded my success at all (well I did get a 11 on my physical sciences and a 10 in bio sciences on the MCAT, so maybe my knowledge isnt lacking).

I have been following your debate with Frazier and at this post I think you are being irrational. You think one's performance on undergrad don't correlate with one's performance in medical school at all??? AT ALL??? Are you serious? Obviously not 100% but at least 70% right? Are you telling me the guy who can't even understand simple biology processes can make a competent doctor?? I have a hard time believing that.

Sure understanding the SN2 reaction better than the other guy does not make you a better doctor but that specific knowledge about SN2 is not the point. The point is the thinking and skills it takes to understand the reaction. That thinking and skills will be used to understand harder concepts in medical school. So MCAT wasn't really testing your knowledge of SN2 but rather your cognitive function even though it is not the perfect test but it's the best we have.

It's great that medical school is working out for you but you can't say the same for all the people who struggled through undergrad and score a 24 on the MCAT for example. What is the percentage of those people you can say will be as good as you are with confidence?

I think its fair to assume there is a smarter DO and MD student than everyone posting on this thread.

Chill out there will always be someone more dumb than you and someone smarter than you.

Originally Posted by willen101383

I respectfully disagree. I cant even begin to see how they can really be compared. In one argument an individual is talking down about people who have made it into med school...and likely are doing fine and will make fine doctors...based on premedical stats that have little/nothing to do with real life med school performance.

In another argument one is poking fun at people who make outlandish claims about their reasons for not even trying to embark on the journey. The similarities between the two are few. The fact is, there ARE plenty of people who simply cannot be doctors because they arent intelligent or driven enough. This goes for ANY career path. Its a fact....and its totally fine. Its just funny to listen to the reasons these people come up with to explain this.

And sure, some people may have gone the nursing route for personal reasons. Remember I am older and had a career before med school...and have met hundreds of nurses. Ive only met a few I think would actually make it through a bachelors degree and into med school. Most are perfectly content in their jobs/qualifications, but ive also met plenty who also like to make interesting claims about why they couldnt make it into med school.

Either way, no disrespect was meant in my generic example, and it was made as a passing comment. Wasnt even something I really put any thought into...although perhaps I should have considering the fact that you and frazier think that me saying it makes me contradictory.

And NO I wouldnt be talking down about DOs. I grew up in a family of MDs in a DO heavy area and my father and all my other relatives that are MDs never had a bad word to say about the DOs they worked with.

Either way, I have contributed all I will contribute to this thread since (as all MD vs DO threads do) we are now just running in circles and resorting to personal attacks (myself included) instead of discussing anything meaningful.

Atleast to me it seemed like you were judging people who did not have the intelligence or drive to get into medical school. The reason these people wouldn't be able to get into medical school was there stats. So here you are equating not having the stats to not being intelligent/driven which is the exact same thing Frazier did. Could be I be misinterpreting what you said? Maybe. But if I was in thread where I was requesting that no judgement be passed on my profession, I personally would have avoided judging individuals in other professions.

Originally Posted by FattySlug

I have been following your debate with Frazier and at this post I think you are being irrational. You think one's performance on undergrad don't correlate with one's performance in medical school at all??? AT ALL??? Are you serious? Obviously not 100% but at least 70% right? Are you telling me the guy who can't even understand simple biology processes can make a competent doctor?? I have a hard time believing that.

Sure understanding the SN2 reaction better than the other guy does not make you a better doctor but that specific knowledge about SN2 is not the point. The point is the thinking and skills it takes to understand the reaction. That thinking and skills will be used to understand harder concepts in medical school. So MCAT wasn't really testing your knowledge of SN2 but rather your cognitive function even though it is not the perfect test but it's the best we have.

It's great that medical school is working out for you but you can't say the same for all the people who struggled through undergrad and score a 24 on the MCAT for example. What is the percentage of those people you can say will be as good as you are with confidence?

Agreed.

Originally Posted by JRWPREMED

I'm just curious as to why students favor Allopathic schools. Osteopathic seems like it is every pre-med student's back-up plan instead of what they are actually aiming for. There isn't really a right or wrong answer on this, I just want to know your thoughts on the matter.

Why do you think Allopathic is usually first choice?

Because it offers an MD degree.

Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

Atleast to me it seemed like you were judging people who did not have the intelligence or drive to get into medical school. The reason these people wouldn't be able to get into medical school was there stats. So here you are equating not having the stats to not being intelligent/driven which is the exact same thing Frazier did. Could be I be misinterpreting what you said? Maybe. But if I was in thread where I was requesting that no judgement be passed on my profession, I personally would have avoided judging individuals in other professions.

No I am not judging anyone for it. Personally I think I (we) are all crazy for doing and I dont blame anyone for not having the drive. There are plenty of fields I am not smart enough for (read: anything involving complicated math). Thats fine. I wasnt judging anyone...just merely poking fun at the excuses people make for not going to med school. Like I said before, I made this comment in passing, wasnt even fully considering how what I was saying, and meant no disrespect by it. Lets just move past the issue okay? I apologize if I offended anyone with what I said and it wasnt my intent to disrespect anyone or their careers.

Originally Posted by willen101383

No I am not judging anyone for it. Personally I think I (we) are all crazy for doing and I dont blame anyone for not having the drive. There are plenty of fields I am not smart enough for (read: anything involving complicated math). Thats fine. I wasnt judging anyone...just merely poking fun at the excuses people make for not going to med school. Like I said before, I made this comment in passing, wasnt even fully considering how what I was saying, and meant no disrespect by it. Lets just move past the issue okay? I apologize if I offended anyone with what I said and it wasnt my intent to disrespect anyone or their careers.

Okie dokie, I'll drop the issue. I think this thread should just get a lock. Nothing constructive, just arguing...

Originally Posted by FattySlug

I have been following your debate with Frazier and at this post I think you are being irrational. You think one's performance on undergrad don't correlate with one's performance in medical school at all??? AT ALL??? Are you serious? Obviously not 100% but at least 70% right? Are you telling me the guy who can't even understand simple biology processes can make a competent doctor?? I have a hard time believing that.

Sure understanding the SN2 reaction better than the other guy does not make you a better doctor but that specific knowledge about SN2 is not the point. The point is the thinking and skills it takes to understand the reaction. That thinking and skills will be used to understand harder concepts in medical school. So MCAT wasn't really testing your knowledge of SN2 but rather your cognitive function even though it is not the perfect test but it's the best we have.

It's great that medical school is working out for you but you can't say the same for all the people who struggled through undergrad and score a 24 on the MCAT for example. What is the percentage of those people you can say will be as good as you are with confidence?

...wasn't SN2 like the easiest reaction in all of ochem?

Originally Posted by FattySlug

I have been following your debate with Frazier and at this post I think you are being irrational. You think one's performance on undergrad don't correlate with one's performance in medical school at all??? AT ALL??? Are you serious? Obviously not 100% but at least 70% right? Are you telling me the guy who can't even understand simple biology processes can make a competent doctor?? I have a hard time believing that.

With all due respect, you are a premed and have nothing to base your opinions on. You have spent zero time in med school. You are taking what I said to the absolute extreme. Of course someone who cant understand basic biology isnt going to hack it in med school (or undergrad). I am referring to the idea that someone who has a 3.3-3.4 is going to make a lesser physician than someone with a 3.6 or something of that nature. People grow up, people mature, and as someone who is still in college I wouldnt expect you to understand this. I still stand by my statement that WITHIN REASON the grades you get as an undergrad dont per se mean anything. I am NOT saying that someone who cant even understand basic concepts is going to make it in med school.

Sure understanding the SN2 reaction better than the other guy does not make you a better doctor but that specific knowledge about SN2 is not the point. The point is the thinking and skills it takes to understand the reaction. That thinking and skills will be used to understand harder concepts in medical school. So MCAT wasn't really testing your knowledge of SN2 but rather your cognitive function even though it is not the perfect test but it's the best we have.

It's great that medical school is working out for you but you can't say the same for all the people who struggled through undergrad and score a 24 on the MCAT for example. What is the percentage of those people you can say will be as good as you are with confidence?

I wouldnt really say a 24 is struggling. It may not be "up to snuff" but we as people in/going to med school forget that a 3.0 etc is still a solid GPA....may not get you into med school, but I wouldnt exactly say a B average in a difficult science based curriculum is "struggling." If WVSOM students were failing out/not passing boards the school wouldnt exist. So obviously these students are doing fine in med school, passing boards, and becoming fine docs. Look at the step 1 score ensuii posted? Thats a DAMN SOLID score...and he outscored X percentage of MD students coming from a school in which the MCAT and GPA were on the low side (dont know what percentile a 240 something is...but I know its up there...considering average is low 220s)

So in closing, does your undergrad GPA mean SOMETHING? Sure. But it doesnt mean as much as premeds think it does. But then again, I understand to a degree. I remember what it was like to be a premed/ early college grad. You are proud of your GPA and MCAT. Its all youve gotten up to this point and its easy to think it means more than it really does.

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Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

Nothing constructive, just arguing...

Plus the actually OP question was already fully answered about 80 posts ago here:

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

1) MD schools have higher admissions standards than DO schools on average.

2) MD students have more research opportunities than their DO counterparts.

3) MD students have a easier time matching into top academic programs in nearly every specialty (EM/FM are possible exceptions; my guess is that at the top academic EM programs such as BWH, MD students are still favored but I'm not sure about top community/communiversity programs like highland, carolinas, etc. 4/42 of the residents at Wisconsin's fam med program (top 3) were DOs)

4) In many cases DO schools are more expensive and have worse clinical sites than their MD counterparts.

5) If you're interested in primary care or private practice in many specialties, you likely won't be handicapped by attending a DO school.

/thread

Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

Okie dokie, I'll drop the issue. I think this thread should just get a lock. Nothing constructive, just arguing...

Agreed. I live for the day that pre allos can actually have a respectful constructive thread about MD vs DO without it degenerating into an argument. People on both sides of the issue are responsible. Pre MD students want to feel superior, and Pre DO students dont want to feel inferior....despite the fact that 90% of medical grads will end up at the same point in life.

Originally Posted by dbeast

...wasn't SN2 like the easiest reaction in all of ochem?

I had cited that above somewhere bcs its the only reaction I remembered from orgo (took it in 03) at that point. I since have remembered something called a diels alder reaction...and that it may or may not have involved some sort of dienes? Feel free to use that in SN2s place.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Depends on whether you think success as an undergrad has anything to do with your capacity to be a successful physician. I personally dont think the two correlate at all. Its like people here act like "zomgs you need a 30 or above to be a great physician," which in reality couldnt be further from the truth. Its also like saying, understanding SN2 reactions (thats like the only thing I remember from orgo when i took it in 2002) has some bearing on your med school success. Some people are better at some things than others...and a lot of what is tested as a premed never gets mentioned again in med school (I would say most).

You were the one who first took it to the extreme by saying that. I didn't need to push anything.

Edit: My extreme example was just to illustrate your point that if the two don't correlate AT ALL then somebody who can't understand simple biology must have a decent shot at being ok in medical school right?

Edit 2: "People grow up, people mature, and as someone who is still in college I wouldnt expect you to understand this."

LOL You are the one advocating not judging one's ability on test scores and yet you judged my maturity on the fact that I am a premed in college which I am not, 25 and out of school. Get off your high horse bro.

Originally Posted by willen101383

So in closing, does your undergrad GPA mean SOMETHING? Sure. But it doesnt mean as much as premeds think it does. But then again, I understand to a degree. I remember what it was like to be a premed/ early college grad. You are proud of your GPA and MCAT. Its all youve gotten up to this point and its easy to think it means more than it really does..

+1 Some of you premeds need to seriously get over stats such as GPA, MCAT etc.. it won't get you laid I PROMISE.

Originally Posted by willen101383

I had cited that above somewhere bcs its the only reaction I remembered from orgo (took it in 03) at that point. I since have remembered something called a diels alder reaction...and that it may or may not have involved some sort of dienes? Feel free to use that in SN2s place.

Obviously you are a subpar student if you can't remember what a SN2 reaction is

(Read post with a heaping dose of sarcasm)

Originally Posted by FattySlug

You were the one who first took it to the extreme by saying that. I didn't need to push anything.

Edit: My extreme example was just to illustrate your point that if the two don't correlate AT ALL then somebody who can't understand simple biology must have a decent shot at being ok in medical school right?

Are we really going to nitpick my post? I am posting while studying and not proofreading my posts. That should have said they dont correlate "in many cases."

Originally Posted by sector9

Obviously you are a subpar student if you can't remember what a SN2 reaction is

(Read post with a heaping dose of sarcasm)

I remember that a nucleophile comes in from one side and a "leaving group" leaves from the other side....rite?