Pros and Cons of UK schools

Veterinary Science Graduate Certificate from UofI
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bigkittinteef

bigkittinteef

Dick Vet c/o 2017
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So there are a lot of school "A" vs. school "B" threads going on. I looked though old threads and found only pros and cons for Edinburgh from a while back. Nothing about Glasgow or RVC. While we have been given a lot of helpful information in the UK thread, I think it'd be great to have a straightforward, organized Pros and Cons list for the UK schools in specific (for ourselves and future cycles!).

So! For those of you that have attended or are currently attending a UK school (i.e. RVC, Edinburgh, Dublin, and Glasgow) please chime in! Let us know the best and worst parts about your school. Any additionally related advice is extremely appreciated! Thank you in advance. :)
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Here is a quick list to start it off....;)


Pros
1. EMS (extra mural studies)
2. Clinical exposure in year one (at least for edinburgh).
3. Better public transportation


Cons
1. Free Health Care-not all it's cracked up to be.....
2. More expensive (in some cases)
 
I think it's going to be difficult to compile a list of Pros and Cons that apply to all UK/US schools. For example, I'm pretty sure that students at UCD (Dublin) have to pay for health insurance in pretty much the exact fashion as students pay for insurance in the US.

I'm also guessing cost of living, tuition, and academic programs vary quite a lot.
 
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Adding a few..

Pros
1. EMS (extra mural studies)
2. Clinical exposure in year one (at least for edinburgh).
3. Better public transportation
4. Easier access to travel in Europe/Asia
5. Studying a different country is fun

Cons
1. Free Health Care-not all it's cracked up to be.....
2. More expensive (in some cases)
3. Getting a UK driving license is a pain
4. Being far away from home is hard sometimes. You end up missing some big life events with friends/family back home.
 
Adding a few..

Pros
1. EMS (extra mural studies)
2. Clinical exposure in year one (at least for edinburgh).
3. Better public transportation
4. Easier access to travel in Europe/Asia
5. Studying a different country is fun
6. Animal handling practicals beginning first semester
7. Amazing experiences and 'worldly' classmates
8. The accents :)
9. Getting 5 letters behind your name after graduation and being part of something 'Royal'
10. Seems to be a less hectic schedule than US (esp for 5 yr programs) with plenty of time for yourself.

Cons
1. Free Health Care-not all it's cracked up to be.....
2. More expensive (in some cases)
3. Getting a UK driving license is a pain
4. Being far away from home is hard sometimes. You end up missing some big life events with friends/family back home.
5. EMS (extra mural studies) - It's a time drain and doing weeks of husbandry on something you are not interested in (poultry, pigs), is sucky when you could be working over the summer
6. Exams! Usually only 1 per class/semester and they are all essay
7. Culture shock
8. Owning and driving a car is mucho expensive in UK
9. Getting your pets over is a royal PITA
10. If you take your pets, majorly limits your ability to go back to US on breaks.
11. Working is extremely difficult due to no connections, EMS and being a foreigner
 
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I think I wasn't clear. I think we all know the general pros and cons of the UK itself. I wanted to make a pros and cons list of individual schools in the UK. For example, lei325, would discuss the pros and cons of RVC. Flyhi for Edinburgh, etc. I'm sorry about the miscommunication! Thank you for the responses so far. :)
 
Here are some I found on an old thread for Edinburgh.
I'll try and do a brief list for Edinburgh...

Pros:
-Fixed tuition rate once you start (they won't increase it each year like many schools do)
-Brand new facilities nearly up and running (will be in full op this April I believe)
-Small animal hospital is really nice- has a really big, clean, organized feel to it
-Lots of great, approachable professors, very receptive to feedback on course
-AVMA accredited, good reputation, very high NAVLE pass rates in past few years (last year 36/36 students that took it passed)
-Free health insurance with NHS
-Living in Edinburgh (could be a con for some, but it's a really nice city with high standard of living, lots of culture, plenty to do)
-lots of opportunity to get involved in research (not my interest, but they're always sending out emails for students to get involved with projects)
-Lambing!! Lambing your first year in the UK is great fun, I think I lambed about 300 ewes in 2 weeks and did a couple calvings as well (experience I may never use again since the US isn't as big on sheep, but fun nonetheless!)
-I quite like the way the curriculum is organized, it is divided into species rather than systems...as follows:
1st yr: Anatomy, physio, histo, embryology (a tiny bit), immunology/bacteriology/virology/parasitology, some PBL/tutorials/etc
2nd yr: 1st semester is the Clinical foundation course: intro to Sx, principles of Radiology, Anesthesia, Intro to Oncology, Pharmacology
2nd semester is the Dog and Cat course: essentially all of small animal medicine
3rd yr: 1st semester is the Farm Animal course, 2nd semester is the Equine and also the Exotics courses
4th yr: rotations
(there's also Professional/Clinical Skills, Animal Food Safety, Epidemiology, etc courses thrown in along the way each year)

Cons:
-Administration dept. is slightly hopeless :rolleyes:
-Animal husbandry EMS takes up all your breaks first year- although some of it is fun (lambing), other placements are kind of a waste of time and pointless...
-Can be expensive (depends on your spending habits and exchange rate)
-You will graduate after US vet schools have graduated their students (graduation is late June)- may interfere with jobs/internship start dates
-Some of the UK students can be very immature- depending on your personality it can be hard to integrate (however, there are lots of older UK students with degrees too, probably about 35%/65% ratio of mature:'school leavers')
-Far away from home, No Thanksgiving break
-Easter Bush campus is about 15-20 min bus ride from city center where most students live
-No neurology rotation in final year- although there is time during your externship block to go to another school/facility to do it if you want
-not a whole lot of surgery experience in my opinion- sort of up to you to get outside experience
-the oral exams one on one with a professor are terrifying!
-the food.

that's about all I can think of right now!



I'm a 1st year GEP, but I have to add a few things to your list that I noticed. I personally don't think the food is that bad, but I cook a lot and Costco and the Chinese supermarkets have been my friends. :)

Pros:
-Christmas festival. Just started yesterday and it's AWESOME. Hogmanay looks fun too, but I'll be doing EMS that week
-There are only tests at the end of the module so you can have some fun at the beginning of it without stressing out too much
-They provide test questions from previous years so you can have an idea of the types of questions asked. VERY helpful so far for the Intro to Patho and Infectious Diseases module. We'll see how true that is after next week's tests on it.
-Professors are really helpful and hold revision sessions if you ask
-So far they've had specimens to look at that are left out during the day to revise the week before tests start
-Renew your library books online at your house!
-Student-staff liason allows you to help the next year get more out of the course. We got printed notes since a prior year suggested it.
-No required textbooks (so far), but for anatomy, a color atlas was essential for me. Most books suggested have been available from the library to borrow.

Cons:
-No one told me there would be snow. It started snowing last night, which was fantastic since I'm from California and never see it. However, I'm afraid to go outside right now because I will probably slip and break my neck since I only own converses.
-There are only tests at the end of the module, which means integration and a lot of material. You get the week prior to revise, but it's extremely stressful and overwhelming.
-Grading system and modifying your standards
-Learning curve of food names without getting looked at like you have 6 heads. Cornmeal = polenta. Molasses = treacle. Pants = trousers. Underwear = pants. etc, etc....
-Parasites you don't learn about because you're in the UK, not the US. Matthews was so awesome for nematodes, but I was irritated when she said the North Americans needed to read up on D. immitis (heartworm) in our own time.
-Books are very expensive (bring your own and buy Pasquini and bring it before your get here since they don't sell it here in book stores)
-Pedestrians don't have the right of way so you WILL get hit if you're not careful. No car will hit a bicyclist from what I've heard, but cycling looks dangerous...
 
bigkittinteef said:
-Learning curve of food names without getting looked at like you have 6 heads. Cornmeal = polenta. Molasses = treacle. Pants = trousers. Underwear = pants. etc, etc....
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Trousers and pants are food in Scotland? ;)
 
Apparently! I heard the food was bad but I had no idea I'd have to resort to eating my pants...
:)
 
I will reply later this week with some comments on RVC & Edinburgh when I get access to my comparison chart. I worked with several Edinburgh grads who were fantastic vets and absolutely loved their education. They said they had less debt than their RVC counterparts, but that the RVC education was also top-notch.

I applied to both USA and UK schools this round. I also found out after submitting my application that I hate crowded cities.... so that ruled out RVC and left me with Edinburgh. But I really didn't like that Edinburgh 4-year progam students don't do full dissections. They claim learning is the same, but I am skeptical. I would 100% have done Edinburgh 5 year if it wasn't so expensive :-(
 
I look forward to your info!
Less debt than RVC counterparts? I'm surprised since tuition at Edinburgh is about $10,000 more a year than RVC. I know that London is incredibly expensive but I had no idea it would make Edinburgh the more financially sound decision! I'm glad to hear that.
How did the grads feel that the lack of dissections affected their education? I'm assuming it's extremely helpful to perform dissections but not necessary to become a good vet in the end? Current students don't seem to be too concerned by it.
 
You know after your first year at RVC, you move out to Hertfordshire which looks quaint and beautiful (not at all crowded I think!). So don't rule it out! Do you know where you want to go?
 
Pros and Cons of RVC: (I'm a G&T student - ie in the 4 year program).

Pros:
- Amazing teachers - often at the forefront of research in the areas they teach us.
- Great location - first year in Camden, 2nd year at hawkshead campus. I love living near hawkhead because it feels rural, but I'm only a 15 minute train ride from London!
- Cheapest tuition in the UK (I don't think the cost of living is high enough negate that).
- Brand new buildings and hospital up at hawkshead (where you spend your last 3 years)
- Queen Mary Hospital is the largest small animal referral hospital in the UK
- Rvc seems to be involved in everything, for example episodes of BBC's "Inside Natures Giants" were filmed here. One of our anatomy professors helped with making the animals anatomically correct in "the golden compass," "Harry Potter," and "war horse."
- Lots of hands on experience in the form of Ahems and EMS ( like all UK schools). Plus we got taken to the RVC farm to learn how to handle horses, pigs, cattle etc as part of our curriculum.
- more well-rounded education than in the US - it focuses on both small and large animal
- I'm on the polo team!


Cons:
- no exams throughout the terms - which means no feedback on how we are studying. (We have a lot of oyo learning, so we just have to hope we're learning the right things).
- administration is not always the most organized - meaning schedules change all the time, and there is often confusion.
- laidback attitude of students (this could be a pro for some people). Other students tell me its a waste to study too much and that grades don't matter, as long as you pass. But I didn't sacrifice this much to get to vet school and just scrape by.
- The 4 year program means we do the first 2 years of the degree in one year. They seem to have done this by just cutting out half the lectures - so we just have to hope we will be learning enough to do fine when mixed in with the 3rd years. And it means it is a lot of information to learn in a year!
- I think Ahems/ems are a great experience - but it limits your summer/easter breaks. Which means you can't go home and work as much.
- EMS has limits on how many weeks can be done abroad. I'm worried this will impact my ability to make veterinary connections back home (especially since doing EMS will fill up my summers to some extent).
- We graduate in June, instead of May like most US schools. I know many people are worried this may impact our ability to find internships/residencies. However I know many foreign students do US internships, so hopefully this is not a problem. And who knows how the different grading system will affect those applications as well (here a 70% is a great score).
- Many of the Americans are here because they didn't get into US schools, which means some may have negative attitudes about the Uk/RVC.


(I may add to this if I think of more later, this is just what I came up with while procrastinating studying a little tonight.).
 
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It would be great to get some Glasgow/Dublin peeps in on this too, please!
 
Any RVC students come from US with pets? Is it difficult to travel throughout Europe with them?
 
kokoyah said:
Any RVC students come from US with pets? Is it difficult to travel throughout Europe with them?
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I know plenty of people who have brought pets with them. The regulations for bringing them to the UK have relaxed a bit, but I'm not sure about traveling throughout Europe with them. Each country will have different regulations, and most vets/lecturers I know would try to persuade you from bringing pets to different countries on holiday/EMS, because of the risk of bringing disease/parasites back with you when you return to the UK.
 
Tonkamoo said:
Pros and Cons of RVC: (I'm a G&T student - ie in the 4 year program).

Pros:
- Amazing teachers - often at the forefront of research in the areas they teach us.
- Great location - first year in Camden, 2nd year at hawkshead campus. I love living near hawkhead because it feels rural, but I'm only a 15 minute train ride from London!
- Cheapest tuition in the UK (I don't think the cost of living is high enough negate that).
- Brand new buildings and hospital up at hawkshead (where you spend your last 3 years)
- Queen Mary Hospital is the largest small animal referral hospital in the UK
- Rvc seems to be involved in everything, for example episodes of BBC's "Inside Natures Giants" were filmed here. One of our anatomy professors helped with making the animals anatomically correct in "the golden compass," "Harry Potter," and "war horse."
- Lots of hands on experience in the form of Ahems and EMS ( like all UK schools). Plus we got taken to the RVC farm to learn how to handle horses, pigs, cattle etc as part of our curriculum.
- more well-rounded education than in the US - it focuses on both small and large animal
- I'm on the polo team!


Cons:
- no exams throughout the terms - which means no feedback on how we are studying. (We have a lot of oyo learning, so we just have to hope we're learning the right things).
- administration is not always the most organized - meaning schedules change all the time, and there is often confusion.
- laidback attitude of students (this could be a pro for some people). Other students tell me its a waste to study too much and that grades don't matter, as long as you pass. But I didn't sacrifice this much to get to vet school and just scrape by.
- The 4 year program means we do the first 2 years of the degree in one year. They seem to have done this by just cutting out half the lectures - so we just have to hope we will be learning enough to do fine when mixed in with the 3rd years. And it means it is a lot of information to learn in a year!
- I think Ahems/ems are a great experience - but it limits your summer/easter breaks. Which means you can't go home and work as much.
- EMS has limits on how many weeks can be done abroad. I'm worried this will impact my ability to make veterinary connections back home (especially since doing EMS will fill up my summers to some extent).
- We graduate in June, instead of May like most US schools. I know many people are worried this may impact our ability to find internships/residencies. However I know many foreign students do US internships, so hopefully this is not a problem. And who knows how the different grading system will affect those applications as well (here a 70% is a great score).
- Many of the Americans are here because they didn't get into US schools, which means some may have negative attitudes about the Uk/RVC.


(I may add to this if I think of more later, this is just what I came up with while procrastinating studying a little tonight.).
Click to expand...

What is your daily schedule like as a G&T first year? Are you in lectures/labs in set time slots for most of the day (8-5pm) or does it vary? **I'm trying to decide between attending RVC and Purdue and I am about to go insane with the internal debate :oops: **
 
Hey ChamorruDVM2016,

I believe we have a lot less class time then most american schools. We probably have about 20 or less scheduled hours a week - which is made up of lectures, DLs (directed learning aka small group learning) dissections and some practicals. First term we even had a few random days off. But we are expected to do a lot of learning on our own. I think next year we will have fuller days though.

The schedule changes every single day/week. First term we had dissections every Friday morning, but that was the only consistent thing. We don't have courses like I did in undergrad - we just have lectures that cover all the topics they think we should know. Ie - instead of taking biochem for a term, we might just have 2 lectures on topics relevant to the modules we are on, if that makes sense.

I also was deciding between Purdue among other schools last year, feel free to PM me with questions. I think they are two very different schools though - from my interviews/visits Purdue seemed to pride itself on the family atmosphere and small class size - and I expect they help you every step of the way. At RVC your class size will be over 200, most teachers won't know your name, and you'll be expected to do a lot on your own, which is good for some, bad for others.
 
Umm here's a random list for Dublin since you asked ;) (it's basically super similar to a lot of the other UK schools)

Pros:
- Location - it's DUBLIN!! Such a fun, great town. Plus the campus is in basically the most expensive/nicest zip code in the country. The social scene is awesome - bars, clubs, live music, anything and everything you could want
- Weather - it's better than the other UK schools I'd say (never go anywhere without an umbrella AND sunglasses) - it's pretty temperate, doesn't get too cold or hot.
- Professors/teachers - the majority of them are really informative, smart, helpful people - I'm in 3rd year now and a couple of our surgery lecturers are hilarious in addition to being super talented
- AMVA accredited, super high NAVLE pass rate (think its been 95% or higher for the last 4 years or so).
- Lots of hands on experience in the form of EMS (pre-clinical: 12 weeks 2 of small, horses, pigs, sheep, dairy & beef, clinical: 24 weeks, 16 not in Ireland/UK) Think it's pretty similar across all the UK schools.
- Way more fun and way less stressful than the US schools in terms of exams and requirements. Some of my classmates hate how laid back everyone is here and how the vets are considered to be basically crazy alcoholics etc. but there's def a work hard, party hard mentality which for me was a def plus. The majority of your grade (70-100%) is determined by your written finals at the end of the semester so it makes the last 3-4 weeks a bit stressful but allows flexibility in your schedule, EU travel opportunities etc.
- Our 12 week school calendar lines up with most of the standard US semester schedules (except for the extra week of spring break for EMS). So other than the lack of Thanksgiving off (which is different for the Canadians anyway) it's pretty good.
- The hospital is the main vet for the Dublin Zoo so we get awesome stuff in post-mortems (recently: giraffe, ostrich, mara, peacocks, etc.) and the occasionally really epic patient (think tiger cubs, elephant etc. these are rare but they do come in!)


Cons:
- Definitely the most expensive of the bunch (out of the UK schools etc.) Although your tuition is fixed for your 4 (or 5 years here). Mine's 32,500 euro in case you were wondering which depending on the current exchange rate is cheaper than I'd be paying if I had stayed at Tufts for a 3rd degree. A lot of people say Dublin is a really expensive town etc. but being from New York City and Boston, its cheaper for me.
- The grading system takes some getting used to if you're from the US .a D- is 50-52.2%, D is 52.2-54.4%, D+ is 54.4-56.6%, C- is 56.6-58.8%, C is 58.8-61.1%, C+ is 61.1-63.3%, B- is 63.3-65.5%, B is 65.5-67.7%, B+ is 67.7-69.9%, A- is 69.9-72.2%, A is 72.2-74.4%, A+ is 74.4-100%. No one really gets above a B all that often, a C is considered a great grade and a D is average ... and if you score between a 45-50% you get an E rather than an F. If you happen to get an E meaning you were close but didn't quite pass, and you did well in your other classes they have what is called compensation where they put you through to the next semester/year. If you actually fail a class you can resit the exam (twice!) before they make you repeat the class/year - this is kind of good and bad. Good because it's nearly impossible to fail out, but bad because its hard to do very well and everyone always says oh you just have to pass! "Aim for the D-!" - a direct quote from our professors.
- The administration/offices are a complete joke. They're basically useless and super unorganized, however none of the Irish seem to take too much issue with this and basically tell us N. americans that were psycho control freaks haha so I think that has more to do with the irish work mentality (they work to live, they def don't live to work), but it can take some getting used to. My way of dealing with it was just to become our class rep for the last 2 years so I sort out all that kind of stuff for my class (it's what I'm good at) and things are improving.
- The 4 year program means we do the two years in one, this actually isn't a big deal except for learning the basic anatomy since you have to do all of it in a year instead of over two years - that's honestly the only complaint I've had re: the curriculum so far that specific to the grad-entry program.
. - The rest of the cons are pretty much the same as the other schools i.e. graduation dates, bitter/under-qualified graduate classmates that didn't get into US schools, young undergraduate classmates, don't get Thanksgiving breaks, far from home/family, etc.
yeah so that's all i can think of right now ... let me know if you have questions ;) :luck: M.A.
 
I'm trying to figure out how much tuition is for international students at RVC. Does anyone know? Also, what's the average cost of rent in London? Do they have dorms for first semester/first year international students? RVC seems like something I might want to do but I'm having a hard time finding information on their website. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
 
Hey Horsegirl - check out the link for guide for international students here: http://www.rvc.ac.uk/Undergraduate/International/Index.cfm
Tuition this year is 19800 POUNDS per year. There are dorms available all 4/5 years if you want them. I believe living in College grove (the dorms right beside the Camden campus) are about 600pounds a month. Private accommodation can be more, especially if you want to live alone, and in Camden.
 
capirinha said:
I know for RVC if you bring your spouse with you they get an automatic visa that allows them to work. I was wondering if any of the other UK schools do this?
Thanks!
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Thats actually not true. Its the same for all of the UK and they just changed the rules last year. Because the vet program is considered an undergrad program spouses do not get a visa. They are however capable of finding a job there and then getting a visa, but on their own.
 
capirinha said:
Thats so weird, because on their website is where I found that it says "A student's husband or wife will be given a visa or passport stamp that allows them to work if the student is given permission to stay in the UK for twelve months or more. (http://www.rvc.ac.uk/Undergraduate/International/WorkingUK.cfm)

I was really hoping that was true, because that was an enormous plus to applying there.
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Oh, well maybe it changed. This wasn't the case for the 2011 incoming class. I would definitely call them to confirm this.
Either way, whatever is the case for RVC should hold true for the whole UK. The UK border control makes the rules for visas, not the schools.
 
capirinha said:
I know for RVC if you bring your spouse with you they get an automatic visa that allows them to work. I was wondering if any of the other UK schools do this?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'm at Edinburgh, and I know that some of my classmates have gotten married this year. Their spouses got visas to come over but I have no idea of their job statuses or their rights to work.
 
My friend brought his wife over with him and she is allowed to work. It sounds like it was a pretty straightforward and simple process. We just started the GEP Dick vet program.
 
BigKittenTeef - see this quote from the link you posted:

From 4 July 2011, you cannot bring your dependants to the UK unless you are:

sponsored by a higher education institution on a course at NQF level 7 or above which lasts 12 months or more;
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We are in an undergraduate course, and are thus not at NQF level 7 or above.
 
Tonkamoo said:
BigKittenTeef - see this quote from the link you posted:



We are in an undergraduate course, and are thus not at NQF level 7 or above.
Click to expand...
I spoke with my classmate who brought his wife this year. She is over on his Tier 4 student visa. She was automatically granted to work full time. Clearly this was allowed meaning our degree qualified. It may come down to whether this is a second degree and if you are in the accelerated 4 year course; it's not a true bachelors degree in this case.

The part that threw me was that we seem to be a level 6 NQF, but on my CAS letter it says my degree is considered a SCQF level 11. According to this website ( http://www.scqf.org.uk/content/files/SCQF_Level_Descriptors_for_website_-_Feb_2010(2).pdf ), it is considered an "INTEGRATED MASTERS DEGREE / MASTERS DEGREE POST GRADUATE DIPLOMA POST GRADUATE CERTIFICATE". This might explain why everyone here (dick vet) is able to bring dependents over with them. I don't know if this is exclusive to scottish schools at it's a scottish rating system. I doubt that RVC students are excluded from this. When all is said and done, I know it's fine for Dick vet students, but for RVC? I'm not sure. :\
 
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