Did I do "too much" when volunteering abroad?

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I volunteered last summer on a mission trip overseas to help improve my application. During this trip, I was able to do some more hands-on work with patients. Recently I came across threads saying that taking such an approach can be harmful to the application, since it might end up looking unethical. I even heard that the University of Michigan actually rejected applicants based on what the applicants did overseas! Now I'm not sure whether to mention these details on my upcoming AMCAS application. I don't know what will hurt my application more, not mentioning the details and looking like I only took the trip to pad my application, or mention the details, but risk looking unethical in the eyes of the ADCOM.

I only found the AAMC guidelines recently: https://www.aamc.org/download/181690...atientcare.pdf

Would you mention the finer details? Help!!!

Well, what were the tasks you performed?

Originally Posted by pkwraith

Well, what were the tasks you performed?

I was shown how to do suturing, and was allowed to try it. I also gave pills to patients but do not think that it's a big deal.

Originally Posted by SassyD0C

I was shown how to do suturing, and was allowed to try it. I also gave pills to patients but do not think that it's a big deal.

If you suctured real people, that is definitely unethical. Do not mention it. You should abide by the same scope of practice as you would volunteering in the states.

In the US, suturing is a medical technique that is governed by scopes of practice.

In most states, I don't think you would be able to suture people just because someone showed you. You'd need to be trained and probably certified/licensed. I'll defer to any suture techs or anyone else in the know on the actual scope of practice.

When you do something outside the US that you are not legally allowed to do in the US -- that is typically frowned upon, and for good reasons.

Originally Posted by pkwraith

In the US, suturing is a medical technique that is governed by scopes of practice.

In most states, I don't think you would be able to suture people just because someone showed you. You'd need to be trained and probably certified/licensed. I'll defer to any suture techs or anyone else in the know on the actual scope of practice.

How does this apply to 3rd and 4th year medical students who suture a ton of people? I'm not "certified" to suture.

Wow! I didn't realize it would be looked down upon like this.

I will leave it off then. Thanks for the help!

Do not talk about anything that you would not/ could not do here in the US. "Hands on experience" = taking advantage of poor people who are so desperate for some kind of medical care they let a shmuck like you and the doctor who let you practice on them.

As a former foreign aid worker, I am really irritated just reading about this... You never should have done it... if I was an ad com I wouldn't let you in.

Originally Posted by dd128

How does this apply to 3rd and 4th year medical students who suture a ton of people? I'm not "certified" to suture.

I'm actually curious about this too. I did a search but couldn't find out who is actually allowed to suture by law (except for physicians obviously), and how the law pertains to medical students.

Originally Posted by SassyD0C

Wow! I didn't realize it would be looked down upon like this.

I will leave it off then. Thanks for the help!

Just don't disclose that aspect of your volunteerism, focus on other relevant things.

Originally Posted by dd128

How does this apply to 3rd and 4th year medical students who suture a ton of people? I'm not "certified" to suture.

Well, a medical student is a professional student being taught his trade skills in a formal educational program designed for that purpose.

Originally Posted by pkwraith

Well, a medical student is a professional student being taught his trade skills in a formal educational program designed for that purpose.

Agreed, we are covered under the licenses of those who are educating us to allow us to learn to do procedures under supervision (which does not necessarily mean they have to watch every moment of you doing it). Further, by being in a US medical school you have demonstrated the capacity to be covered under a physician's license.

Suturing isn't hard, we could probably teach a gorilla to do a respectable horizontal mattress on a simple laceration, so admittedly being in medical school is a pretty extreme way of demonstrating capacity. However, there are risks associated with suturing, hence all of the hoo hah.

I don't think gorillas have the dexterity to do that. Small needles, you know.

Now that I think about it, probably shouldn't mention giving meds to patients either.

Med admin is pretty restricted stuff in the US, falling squarely in the scope of practice for RNs. Highly regulated. RNs need to verify patient and verify meds and document appropriate on the MAR through multiple identification checks. Their license could still be at risk if they end up giving an improper medication instructed by a physician. It's doubtful that an undertrained unlicensed person would be able to recognize incorrect meds, improper dosage, or recognize insidious adverse affects.

Most Boards of Pharmacies would blow a top if they found out a non-licensed volunteer was giving pills to patients anywhere in the US. For a layperson, it might seem to be very trivial thing to just give out pills, but it's a highly restricted task for many reasons.

Michigan's response to this topic is frustrating. I looked back to school-specific discussion and see they post a lot on twitter. It's infuriating to see the games they play with applicants. First they refer to applicants as "box-checkers." How nice. I am guessing they would label some abroad experiences like this. So how do applicants try to shake off being "box-checker"? They try to set themselves apart (if this is even possible). In other volunteer threads, you have applicants from free clinic bragging about all things they got to the patient. When I volunteered in hospital, neither I or volunteers could touch the patient!

You then have pre-meds going overseas so they can do more hands-on stuff like the free clinic or "meaningful" clinical volunteering crowd try to do. Do you think they know where to draw the line between ethical and unethical? In this high-pressure bullsh*t requirement to stand out, dont you think applicants will do as MUCH as they can to stand out? Can you blame them? Well schools like Michigan are! They are denying them because like OP they did "too much"!

Shame on you Michigan! First you call them "box-checkers", but then reject people who try to do more? Seriously, what the hell do you want?! People look like "box-checkers" because they NEED to jump through this hoop to be accepted. Then you go ahead and blame those who try to get ahead? This is messed up.

Originally Posted by AllDaWEI

Michigan's response to this topic is frustrating. I looked back to school-specific discussion and see they post a lot on twitter. It's infuriating to see the games they play with applicants. First they refer to applicants as "box-checkers." How nice. I am guessing they would label some abroad experiences like this. So how do applicants try to shake off being "box-checker"? They try to set themselves apart (if this is even possible). In other volunteer threads, you have applicants from free clinic bragging about all things they got to the patient. When I volunteered in hospital, neither I or volunteers could touch the patient!

You then have pre-meds going overseas so they can do more hands-on stuff like the free clinic or "meaningful" clinical volunteering crowd try to do. Do you think they know where to draw the line between ethical and unethical? In this high-pressure bullsh*t requirement to stand out, dont you think applicants will do as MUCH as they can to stand out? Can you blame them? Well schools like Michigan are! They are denying them because like OP they did "too much"!

Shame on you Michigan! First you call them "box-checkers", but then reject people who try to do more? Seriously, what the hell do you want?! People look like "box-checkers" because they NEED to jump through this hoop to be accepted. Then you go ahead and blame those who try to get ahead? This is messed up.

Do you feel better now?

We want people who are genuine and who seek out experiences out of genuine interest and not to "check a box". We also seek out people who have more sense than God gave a billygoat and that means we're looking for people who do what they are qualified to do with a smile, pass on that which they are unqualified to do and who have the wisdom to know the difference.

I recently looked up someone I intereviewed >5 yrs ago. She had done art projects at the bedsides of pediatric patients. That was pretty much the sum total of her clinical experience given that med school was a decision made late in her college career. She ended up AOA (medical honor society) and in a very competitive surgical specialty. She managed that without having had a pre-med experience taking blood pressures, or suturing or deliverying placentas.

Originally Posted by pkwraith

Now that I think about it, probably shouldn't mention giving meds to patients either.

Med admin is pretty restricted stuff in the US, falling squarely in the scope of practice for RNs. Highly regulated. RNs need to verify patient and verify meds and document appropriate on the MAR through multiple identification checks. Their license could still be at risk if they end up giving an improper medication instructed by a physician. It's doubtful that an undertrained unlicensed person would be able to recognize incorrect meds, improper dosage, or recognize insidious adverse affects.

Most Boards of Pharmacies would blow a top if they found out a non-licensed volunteer was giving pills to patients anywhere in the US. For a layperson, it might seem to be very trivial thing to just give out pills, but it's a highly restricted task for many reasons.

About the medication administration issue, while true overall, I wanted to point out that there ARE positions in which a person (non-student) below the RN/LPN can administer meds. In many states, there are medication administration qualifying courses. These allow specially trained non-nursing people to administer meds in a non-hospital setting. (E.g., residential treatment facility.) I know that when I did my class, we were trained on red rules, the 6 rights of medication administration, correct documentation in the MAR, what would could (not) administer, when we could legally give a PRN without a patient request (i.e., basically when to give oral e-meds), and so forth.

Still, what the OP did is highly inappropriate/dangerous/illegal (probably in the country s/he was working as well as in the U.S.). I would not mention it, OP, and I would be cautious about performing any procedure w/o proper training in the future.

Originally Posted by AllDaWEI

Michigan's response to this topic is frustrating. I looked back to school-specific discussion and see they post a lot on twitter. It's infuriating to see the games they play with applicants. First they refer to applicants as "box-checkers." How nice. I am guessing they would label some abroad experiences like this. So how do applicants try to shake off being "box-checker"? They try to set themselves apart (if this is even possible). In other volunteer threads, you have applicants from free clinic bragging about all things they got to the patient. When I volunteered in hospital, neither I or volunteers could touch the patient!

You then have pre-meds going overseas so they can do more hands-on stuff like the free clinic or "meaningful" clinical volunteering crowd try to do. Do you think they know where to draw the line between ethical and unethical? In this high-pressure bullsh*t requirement to stand out, dont you think applicants will do as MUCH as they can to stand out? Can you blame them? Well schools like Michigan are! They are denying them because like OP they did "too much"!

Shame on you Michigan! First you call them "box-checkers", but then reject people who try to do more? Seriously, what the hell do you want?! People look like "box-checkers" because they NEED to jump through this hoop to be accepted. Then you go ahead and blame those who try to get ahead? This is messed up.

I don't know... it seems they want people who went and got their hands dirty trying things out but also had the commonsense to not do unethical things. That's hardly the toughest set of decisions they have to make before entering medical school. It seems reasonable to me to expect the OP to express discomfort doing these procedures. I have been taught to suture (on animals) and have worked as an EMT in several capacities. I have also removed sutures on people, which is covered in my scope of practice and my job description. Still, I would not feel comfortable doing what the OP did. I would feel incompetent and not want to risk harming the pt. To me, that seems like a natural, gut-instinct type of response.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

Do you feel better now?

We want people who are genuine and who seek out experiences out of genuine interest and not to "check a box". We also seek out people who have more sense than God gave a billygoat and that means we're looking for people who do what they are qualified to do with a smile, pass on that which they are unqualified to do and who have the wisdom to know the difference.

I would think that type of wisdom is absolutely crucial, Lizzy. It seems that a gut instinct about that could save a medical student from some pretty serious mistakes come M3/M4 (or even earlier in preceptorships as an M1/M2).

Originally Posted by chemhead123

Do not talk about anything that you would not/ could not do here in the US. "Hands on experience" = taking advantage of poor people who are so desperate for some kind of medical care they let a shmuck like you and the doctor who let you practice on them.

As a former foreign aid worker, I am really irritated just reading about this... You never should have done it... if I was an ad com I wouldn't let you in.

I think folks are being a little too harsh on the OP. We have a certain set of laws and expectations governing medical care here in the US; other countries -- facing vastly different resource constraints -- have different standards. We place a premium on patient safety, but at the expense of creating a bloated, expensive medical bureaucracy. Other countries make do with less -- and to be honest, often achieve comparable outcomes.

Anyway, I'd say you should err on the conservative side and not mention this in your application. But don't feel like you did something terribly unethical. In the perfect world, everybody could get their minor suturing done by a Harvard-trained plastic surgeon. But we don't live in a perfect world, and sutures from a premed are better than no sutures at all.

Originally Posted by wavewheel

I think folks are being a little too harsh on the OP. We have a certain set of laws and expectations governing medical care here in the US; other countries -- facing vastly different resource constraints -- have different standards. We place a premium on patient safety, but at the expense of creating a bloated, expensive medical bureaucracy. Other countries make do with less -- and to be honest, often achieve comparable outcomes.

Anyway, I'd say you should err on the conservative side and not mention this in your application. But don't feel like you did something terribly unethical. In the perfect world, everybody could get their minor suturing done by a Harvard-trained plastic surgeon. But we don't live in a perfect world, and sutures from a premed are better than no sutures at all.

While I get what you're saying, what the OP states is concerning for a few reasons:

Originally Posted by SassyD0C

I was shown how to do suturing, and was allowed to try it. I also gave pills to patients but do not think that it's a big deal.

Trying suturing should have set off some alarms for the OP -- it's a surgical procedure and the OP presumably lacks any training in sterile technique, correct suturing technique, etc.

As for whether it's better to have a pre-med or no one do your sutures, that depends upon the situation. Unless not getting those sutures would have likely resulted in death or amputation, going without the sutures may be preferable to having an untrained, naive individual do your sutures. (Think about it in terms of risk of infection due to poor aseptic technique, for example.)

My second concern would be with the OP's comment that s/he believes it was no big deal to have administered medications. Of the two issues, this might be the bigger issue. Giving out medications to pts is not necessarily difficult, but avoiding errors is critical and the OP is so flippant about this statement that it makes me wonder if that attitude would be seen in this person as a medical student. I would think an adcom might have the same reservations upon hearing something like that implied in the OP's conversation with him/her or in essays, etc.

Originally Posted by wavewheel

I think folks are being a little too harsh on the OP. We have a certain set of laws and expectations governing medical care here in the US; other countries -- facing vastly different resource constraints -- have different standards. We place a premium on patient safety, but at the expense of creating a bloated, expensive medical bureaucracy. Other countries make do with less -- and to be honest, often achieve comparable outcomes.

Unskilled treatment can be more harmful than no treatment. Remember one of the central philosophies of medicine is "do no harm".

I need to send in an update letter soon to hopefully get off a few waitlists. Does anybody think doing pediatric patient bedside art projects in a foreign country is worth the extra travel cost vs just doing pediatric patient art here in the states?

Originally Posted by MT Headed

I need to send in an update letter soon to hopefully get off a few waitlists. Does anybody think doing pediatric patient bedside art projects in a foreign country is worth the extra travel cost vs just doing pediatric patient art here in the states?

Your sarcasm hurts.

I'll go ask the patients next time I go to the foreign country clinic, though, whether they prefer more bedside artists or medical students.

I know this suture thing is like beating a dead horse, but it reminded me of a similar experience I had....

I was volunteering at a hospital in a 3rd world country and one of the "bigwig senior surgeons" of that hospital allowed me to shadow him in the OR ---> eventually at the end of one of his operations, it led to him offering to teach me to suture on the anesthetized patient and allow me to perform a suture on the patient. I refused immediately (didnt feel right + the fact I was sure I would harm the patient if i were to even attempt) at which he was very upset at me and basically threw me out of the OR (for his remaining operations that day) for refusing his "generosity"........led to me doing odd volunteer jobs the rest of the day >_<

The nurses later told me that I was stupid to refuse anything from him and even the US MD doc who organized the trip told me I had made a mistake to refuse "rare generous" offers b/c it was very rude to say no in that culture. -_______- well i honestly felt like i made the right decision tho

Originally Posted by MT Headed

I need to send in an update letter soon to hopefully get off a few waitlists. Does anybody think doing pediatric patient bedside art projects in a foreign country is worth the extra travel cost vs just doing pediatric patient art here in the states?

Ordinarily, I would say doing here is sufficient; however, with your MCAT, it's just not going to be enough to do it here. You're going to have to go abroad, dude. Sorry.

Originally Posted by MT Headed

I need to send in an update letter soon to hopefully get off a few waitlists. Does anybody think doing pediatric patient bedside art projects in a foreign country is worth the extra travel cost vs just doing pediatric patient art here in the states?

I see what you did there

Medical licences are not required for combat medics to suture. Grunts can administer morphine to their wounded compatriots with just enough training to jab it into the guys thigh.

We have good samaritan laws in the US to protect average Joes who stop to give aid in emergencies, even if they have no training.

Having said that, sutures are rarely a life-saving operation. Most times direct pressure will do the trick.

My point being, in an emergency I would expect help from another human being, trained or not. I just don't think sutures are an immediate need. Slap a towel on it and get me to a doctor.

Originally Posted by music2doc

About the medication administration issue, while true overall, I wanted to point out that there ARE positions in which a person (non-student) below the RN/LPN can administer meds. In many states, there are medication administration qualifying courses. These allow specially trained non-nursing people to administer meds in a non-hospital setting. (E.g., residential treatment facility.) I know that when I did my class, we were trained on red rules, the 6 rights of medication administration, correct documentation in the MAR, what would could (not) administer, when we could legally give a PRN without a patient request (i.e., basically when to give oral e-meds), and so forth.

Still, what the OP did is highly inappropriate/dangerous/illegal (probably in the country s/he was working as well as in the U.S.). I would not mention it, OP, and I would be cautious about performing any procedure w/o proper training in the future.



I don't know... it seems they want people who went and got their hands dirty trying things out but also had the commonsense to not do unethical things. That's hardly the toughest set of decisions they have to make before entering medical school. It seems reasonable to me to expect the OP to express discomfort doing these procedures. I have been taught to suture (on animals) and have worked as an EMT in several capacities. I have also removed sutures on people, which is covered in my scope of practice and my job description. Still, I would not feel comfortable doing what the OP did. I would feel incompetent and not want to risk harming the pt. To me, that seems like a natural, gut-instinct type of response.



I would think that type of wisdom is absolutely crucial, Lizzy. It seems that a gut instinct about that could save a medical student from some pretty serious mistakes come M3/M4 (or even earlier in preceptorships as an M1/M2).

Your last paragraph is spot on. I declined the opportunity to do a spinal tap on a baby because I had never seen one and the baby had serious issues. My classmates thought that I was crazy, but I don't regret it.

Originally Posted by SassyD0C

I was shown how to do suturing, and was allowed to try it. I also gave pills to patients but do not think that it's a big deal.

Originally Posted by TheMightySmiter

If you suctured real people, that is definitely unethical. Do not mention it. You should abide by the same scope of practice as you would volunteering in the states.

How is this unethical? He or she was probably shown by a physician.

Medical school send M1 and M2's on mission trips where they get scrubbed into abdominal surgeries and assist. People need to loosen up, its not like you're experimenting on these people.

I went to this military medicine talk the other month and during the slide show the presenter talked about how when you're in Iraq (as a army surgeon) you're often short handed and use what you have. Whoever is available will often assist. There were pictures of DENTISTS assisting (which he pointed out). Is this unethical? Their care is still directed by the surgeon.

IMO, If anything it is unethical to stand by and do nothing. Its not like they bring residents on these things (often).

Originally Posted by Holy FranZ

How is this unethical? He or she was probably shown by a physician.
One might argue that it is unethical because the said student does not have the pre-requisite education that has been deemed appropriate before learning how to do so. Whether or not going to college then pre-clinical medical school and learning biochem and pharm and embryology actually affects your ability to suture is irrelevant, it is the standard here in the states (combined with the who being covered under a physician's license thing) and as hopefuls for medical schools in the states you must model your behaviors by the standards of what you are striving for. I personally am not sure that I would say it is unethical, but I do think it is a gray area not worth broaching with adcoms.

Medical school send M1 and M2's on mission trips where they get scrubbed into abdominal surgeries and assist. They are in medical school and fall under the license of a physician. They have also demonstrated the standards set forth prior to learning these skills. You don't even have to go to another country to do these things, I was assist on a transplant surgery as a first year medical student. People need to loosen up, its not like you're experimenting on these people. Experimenting no, exploiting yes.

I went to this military medicine talk the other month and during the slide show the presenter talked about how when you're in Iraq (as a army surgeon) you're often short handed and use what you have. Whoever is available will often assist. There were pictures of DENTISTS assisting (which he pointed out). Is this unethical? Their care is still directed by the surgeon. A dentist has some training in surgical skills, and is also legally allowed to perform at least some surgical procedures. I would trust a dentist over a pre-med any day of the week. Hell, I would trust even a general practice dentist over most if not all medical students.

IMO, If anything it is unethical to stand by and do nothing. Its not like they bring residents on these things (often). It is a gray area. Yes there is the argument that something is better than nothing (though honestly with some of these programs I'd take nothing over their something), but the fact of the matter is that there is some level of irresponsibility and exploitation involved when unqualified pre-meds go play doctor in other countries to pad their resume. I find the "pay a few grand and come help" type programs especially distasteful. There are more legit medical missions as well, but the truth of the matter is most pre-meds are doing the former not the latter and, since it can be hard to tell which is which when you're on an adcome, it's best for applicants to keep your descriptions of your activities vanilla.

See above.

Originally Posted by Holy FranZ

How is this unethical? He or she was probably shown by a physician.

Medical school send M1 and M2's on mission trips where they get scrubbed into abdominal surgeries and assist. People need to loosen up, its not like you're experimenting on these people.

I went to this military medicine talk the other month and during the slide show the presenter talked about how when you're in Iraq (as a army surgeon) you're often short handed and use what you have. Whoever is available will often assist. There were pictures of DENTISTS assisting (which he pointed out). Is this unethical? Their care is still directed by the surgeon.

IMO, If anything it is unethical to stand by and do nothing. Its not like they bring residents on these things (often).

A) He/she was experimenting as he/she had never done this before

B) There is a marked difference from trained medical personnel and someone who was just shown how to do this procedure. Med students are being trained and have education. Dentists have a solid education and have surgical skills. Pre-med who drop X dollars to go to Africa to put it on his application does not have training or medical education. There's a big difference between these groups which you fail to recognize.

C) OP wasn't in a war zone and he/she was with an actual physician which means this wasn't an emergency and there was skilled care available.

D) By your logic anyone should be able to give medical care as long as taught by some physician.

What do you think the purpose of volunteering ABROAD is? Look at it like this. Doing a traditional cookie-cutter gig.at local hoapital will likely allow pre-med to give patients water or blankets. Mo touching! But what about the "holy grail" free clinics? SDN members pride themselves on being able to do more hands-on stuff like checking BP and other things. So where does that leave volunteering abroad? Do you think most people go on tripa expecting to do more, just like some people expect more volunteering for free clinics? With schools being turned off by "box-checkers," is it likely pre-meds just want to do more when volunteering abroad, since local hospital will not let them?

Originally Posted by AllDaWEI

What do you think the purpose of volunteering ABROAD is? Look at it like this. Doing a traditional cookie-cutter gig.at local hoapital will likely allow pre-med to give patients water or blankets. Mo touching! But what about the "holy grail" free clinics? SDN members pride themselves on being able to do more hands-on stuff like checking BP and other things. So where does that leave volunteering abroad? Do you think most people go on tripa expecting to do more, just like some people expect more volunteering for free clinics? With schools being turned off by "box-checkers," is it likely pre-meds just want to do more when volunteering abroad, since local hospital will not let them?

Do you think you will ever stop being bitter about having to give up 100 hours of your life to get into medical school?

Originally Posted by eagles22

A) He/she was experimenting as he/she had never done this before

B) There is a marked difference from trained medical personnel and someone who was just shown how to do this procedure. Med students are being trained and have education. Dentists have a solid education and have surgical skills. Pre-med who drop X dollars to go to Africa to put it on his application does not have training or medical education. There's a big difference between these groups which you fail to recognize.

C) OP wasn't in a war zone and he/she was with an actual physician which means this wasn't an emergency and there was skilled care available.

D) By your logic anyone should be able to give medical care as long as taught by some physician.

This.

Clinical experience as a pre-med is about learning how to be comfortable around patients. It isn't about "I got to do x many things that I will someday do in med school".

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

Do you think you will ever stop being bitter about having to give up 100 hours of your life to get into medical school?

Hey do we need the personal attacks here? I'm making a valid point about the OP's topic. Do you need to bash me just because I posted about topic?

Originally Posted by AllDaWEI

Hey do we need the personal attacks here? I'm making a valid point about the OP's topic. Do you need to bash me just because I posted about topic?

It's a valid point. You personally attacked Michigan

Originally Posted by AllDaWEI

What do you think the purpose of volunteering ABROAD is? Look at it like this. Doing a traditional cookie-cutter gig.at local hoapital will likely allow pre-med to give patients water or blankets. Mo touching! But what about the "holy grail" free clinics? SDN members pride themselves on being able to do more hands-on stuff like checking BP and other things. So where does that leave volunteering abroad? Do you think most people go on tripa expecting to do more, just like some people expect more volunteering for free clinics? With schools being turned off by "box-checkers," is it likely pre-meds just want to do more when volunteering abroad, since local hospital will not let them?

I honestly hope that people do not believe the purpose of volunteering abroad is doing things they are not legally allowed to do in their home country.

I am baffled at what you are arguing on the topic. To set themselves apart, they should do things that are highly questionable and ethically gray?

Originally Posted by pkwraith

I honestly hope that people do not believe the purpose of volunteering abroad is doing things they are not legally allowed to do in their home country.

I am baffled at what you are arguing on the topic. To set themselves apart, they should do things that are highly questionable and ethically gray?

Me too. But what about volunteering at a hospital versus free clinic? The free clinic experience is said to be better than the typical hospital gig. Maybe a pre-med only does things like checking BP or even blood sugar at free clinic (not sutures, diagnosing, etc), but it still seems people think the more you do the better.

Originally Posted by dmf2682

It's a valid point. You personally attacked Michigan

True I did. I didn't even realize I did. They put things out there. Whether they meant to be funny or not on Twitter, they attacked certain pre-meds by calling them "box-checkers" as insult and rejected some based on what they did volunteering abroad. The volunteering abroad is a whole other issue, and I agree with what people said about being unethical doing too much.

Originally Posted by AllDaWEI

True I did. I didn't even realize I did. They put things out there. Whether they meant to be funny or not on Twitter, they attacked certain pre-meds by calling them "box-checkers" as insult and rejected some based on what they did volunteering abroad. The volunteering abroad is a whole other issue, and I agree with what people said about being unethical doing too much.

Man! Everyone attacking everyone else! You attack Michigan, Michigan attacks premeds, sdn attacks you, you attack everyone and then I start being all Hey calm down there. Sdn is just like the middle east, with volunteering being what religion is the best. Loma Linda is probably Iran, no one likes them because they crazy. I think I'll be Turkey.

Gobble?

Originally Posted by dmf2682

Man! Everyone attacking everyone else! You attack Michigan, Michigan attacks premeds, sdn attacks you, you attack everyone and then I start being all Hey calm down there. Sdn is just like the middle east, with volunteering being what religion is the best. Loma Linda is probably Iran, no one likes them because they crazy. I think I'll be Turkey.

Gobble?

LOLZ!

Originally Posted by AllDaWEI

Me too. But what about volunteering at a hospital versus free clinic? The free clinic experience is said to be better than the typical hospital gig. Maybe a pre-med only does things like checking BP or even blood sugar at free clinic (not sutures, diagnosing, etc), but it still seems people think the more you do the better.

The more the better, within ethical bounds. Someone who practiced as a paramedic for a year before applying to med school and much more clinical experience than a typical student, and their experience will obviously hold more value to adcoms than a typical volunteer. He achieved this, however, via ethically acceptable means, by becoming licensed and fully trained to perform his duties. Trying to get experience that would not be allowed in the US by going to where people are so desperate for medical attention they would allow someone completely untrained to practice medicine on them should be a huge red flag to anyone. It is obviously exploiting people who are unfortunate enough to live in a third world country (or disaster zone) if you take a few seconds to step back and stop looking at it only through the "I got to get into med school!!!" lens.

Suturing isn't rocket science, guys. While I wouldn't write about it in your personal statement, it's hardly a complicated thing to do.

I would sure as hell trust a competent med student to suture me than a dentist; when do dentists suture things in clinical practice, especially outside the oral cavity? I just closed fascia, fat, skin on a big abdominal incision that i'd made few hours ago and I've done it probably 20-30 times in ~5 months of surgical training in addition to lots of other sutures; not all med students just retract and get dinner during their surgery rotations.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Suturing isn't rocket science, guys. While I wouldn't write about it in your personal statement, it's hardly a complicated thing to do.

I would sure as hell trust a competent med student to suture me than a dentist; when do dentists suture things in clinical practice, especially outside the oral cavity? I just closed fascia, fat, skin on a big abdominal incision that i'd made few hours ago and I've done it probably 20-30 times in ~5 months of surgical training in addition to lots of other sutures; not all med students just retract and get dinner during their surgery rotations.

I would absolutely trust someone as far along as you in their medical training to do something simple like suturing. I would absolutely not trust someone as far along as myself in their medical training, even to do something as simple as suturing.

Originally Posted by theseeker4

The more the better, within ethical bounds. Someone who practiced as a paramedic for a year before applying to med school and much more clinical experience than a typical student, and their experience will obviously hold more value to adcoms than a typical volunteer. He achieved this, however, via ethically acceptable means, by becoming licensed and fully trained to perform his duties. Trying to get experience that would not be allowed in the US by going to where people are so desperate for medical attention they would allow someone completely untrained to practice medicine on them should be a huge red flag to anyone. It is obviously exploiting people who are unfortunate enough to live in a third world country (or disaster zone) if you take a few seconds to step back and stop looking at it only through the "I got to get into med school!!!" lens.

Very well said.. That "I got to get into med school!!!" lens you mention will make people do things, both GOOD or BAD, that a non-pre-med would never do.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Suturing isn't rocket science, guys. While I wouldn't write about it in your personal statement, it's hardly a complicated thing to do.

I would sure as hell trust a competent med student to suture me than a dentist; when do dentists suture things in clinical practice, especially outside the oral cavity? I just closed fascia, fat, skin on a big abdominal incision that i'd made few hours ago and I've done it probably 20-30 times in ~5 months of surgical training in addition to lots of other sutures; not all med students just retract and get dinner during their surgery rotations.

It looks like the funnest thing in the world. You go to Wisconsin right?

so I sort of just skimmed this thread and I apologize if this has already been brought up - but what's the deal with undergraduates scrubbing in on surgeries in the US? I know at least two people who have done that in real survival surgeries and I know people who have scrubbed in on organ harvests.

do they count as being under the license of the surgeons overseeing them? or is this not kosher?

Just being scrubbed in doesn't mean you're actually doing anything.

Originally Posted by Morsetlis

Just being scrubbed in doesn't mean you're actually doing anything.

very true. so scrubbed in is ok, doing stuff is not kosher until you're in med school?

I "scrubbed in" on a surgery when I was 15, I stood behind the patient's head and watched. You have to be in protective equipment if you're going into the OR.

A lot of pre-meds shadow surgeons. Look but no touch.

Originally Posted by MT Headed

I need to send in an update letter soon to hopefully get off a few waitlists. Does anybody think doing pediatric patient bedside art projects in a foreign country is worth the extra travel cost vs just doing pediatric patient art here in the states?

What kind of "difference" do you expect to make? Are there not pediatric patients in need of bedside art in your own community? Don't you think the $2000 you'd spend on a plane ticket could be put to better use funding art supplies to send abroad? What makes you think there aren't already locals living in these foreign countries who are qualified to perform pediatric bedside art? Too often, these international pediatric bedside art missions are simply glorified vacations. You should stick to providing pediatric bedside art in your own community.