Good stats, not so good school... Chances?

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I'm a sophomore at an extremely small liberal arts college (not even sure if it is ranked) and basically no research takes place here. I DO have summer research experience, however. I attended this school because I got a full ride for track and field and academics.

Here's some stats
GPA: 4.0 (science and non science)
Major: Chemistry and mathematics (dual)
Minor: Pre-professional (pre-med requirements)
MCAT: I'll take it next year, but I have taken 3 AAMC tests, which I got 37, 39, and 42 (They got better as I learned more organic chemistry, and physics is my strong point).

Research Experience

Summer REU in molecular biophysics at Princeton University, did research for 10 weeks

Will be going to the International Institute of Structural Biology in the Czech Republic for 10 weeks of research this summer (through Princeton again)

I also have a job set up next year with one of my chemistry professors to do water analysis for our county (they hire the college), and my professor does some of her research in analytical chemistry with chemicals in water supplies.

Extracurricular activities

Honors program - numerous community services and one survey research project

Residential advisor (RA) this year, resident director (RD) next year

Chemistry club secretary

Decathlete on the track and field team, around 20 hours of training per week

Computer skills - experienced with programming languages (python, java and C) and Excel

Docent (volunteer teacher) for the Smithsonian Institution last year

SAAC athletics representative

Audited a biochemistry class freshman year

Calculus lab assistant

General chemistry lab assistant

Math 101 teacher (Yes, students teach math 101 at my college)

1 day of shadowing an orthopaedic (I'll get more)

Calculus tutor

Currently training to be a hospice volunteer, I will get my certificate to volunteer soon

Will be a college marshall next year and my senior year






I feel that my ECs are decent and I'm confident I'll graduate with a good GPA and achieve a good MCAT score, but I'm concerned that the major lack of prestige at my school (barely any research) will hinder my ability to get accepted to a top 10 school.

However, I've been trying to make up for it by getting research experience at larger universities (Princeton and the International Institute of Structural Biology), and I will strive to apply to get more research in later summers.


Will my attendance at my very unnoticed school matter in my application?



EDIT: I like it at my small school, it fits me well and I personally think the classes are great and I've made great friends and all, but would transferring in order to raise admission chances be a drastic decision?

Originally Posted by isomorph

I'm a sophomore at an extremely small liberal arts college (not even sure if it is ranked) and basically no research takes place here. I DO have summer research experience, however. I attended this school because I got a full ride for track and field and academics.

Here's some stats
GPA: 4.0 (science and non science)
Major: Chemistry and mathematics (dual)
Minor: Pre-professional (pre-med requirements)
MCAT: I'll take it next year, but I have taken 3 AAMC tests, which I got 37, 39, and 42 (They got better as I learned more organic chemistry, and physics is my strong point).

Research Experience

Summer REU in molecular biophysics at Princeton University, did research for 10 weeks

Will be going to the International Institute of Structural Biology in the Czech Republic for 10 weeks of research this summer (through Princeton again)

I also have a job set up next year with one of my chemistry professors to do water analysis for our county (they hire the college), and my professor does some of her research in analytical chemistry with chemicals in water supplies.

Extracurricular activities

Honors program - numerous community services and one survey research project

Residential advisor (RA) this year, resident director (RD) next year

Chemistry club secretary

Decathlete on the track and field team, around 20 hours of training per week

Computer skills - experienced with programming languages (python, java and C) and Excel

Docent (volunteer teacher) for the Smithsonian Institution last year

SAAC athletics representative

Audited a biochemistry class freshman year

Calculus lab assistant

General chemistry lab assistant

Math 101 teacher (Yes, students teach math 101 at my college)

1 day of shadowing an orthopaedic (I'll get more)

Calculus tutor

Currently training to be a hospice volunteer, I will get my certificate to volunteer soon

Will be a college marshall next year and my senior year






I feel that my ECs are decent and I'm confident I'll graduate with a good GPA and achieve a good MCAT score, but I'm concerned that the major lack of prestige at my school (barely any research) will hinder my ability to get accepted to a top 10 school.

However, I've been trying to make up for it by getting research experience at larger universities (Princeton and the International Institute of Structural Biology), and I will strive to apply to get more research in later summers.


Will my attendance at my very unnoticed school matter in my application?



EDIT: I like it at my small school, it fits me well and I personally think the classes are great and I've made great friends and all, but would transferring in order to raise admission chances be a drastic decision?

As a student in almost your exact same position (I attend a large State University that is not ranked and often gets overshadowed by a certain other school in NC haha), I honestly do not believe that your undergraduate institution plays a large role (or any at all) in acceptances/interviews. I received interviews at several top ten institutions, was accepted at 4 programs (two top 20) and was accepted to the NIH OxCam Scholars program (which in my mind at least is equivalent to a top 10 MSTP but I am biased of course ). For perspective, I am only the second student at my university to ever even apply, let alone be accepted to an MD/PhD program. I was our first Goldwater scholar and the second student to ever score above a 35 or so on my MCAT.

I am a firm believer that it is what you do and not where you do it at that matters. Your ECs, research background so far, etc. are impressive. Just get good recs from your princeton PIs, score high on the MCAT, get some more clinical exposure, and make sure you can articulate why you want to pursue an MD/PhD (the only thing that seems out of place in your background is your non-biomedically oriented research experiences.... but you can spin this in your favor I suppose or you can try to get a summer position in a biomed/biochem project).

Good luck. Let me know if I can supply any more advice, etc.

Originally Posted by Piper9132

As a student in almost your exact same position (I attend a large State University that is not ranked and often gets overshadowed by a certain other school in NC haha), I honestly do not believe that your undergraduate institution plays a large role (or any at all) in acceptances/interviews. I received interviews at several top ten institutions, was accepted at 4 programs (two top 20) and was accepted to the NIH OxCam Scholars program (which in my mind at least is equivalent to a top 10 MSTP but I am biased of course ). For perspective, I am only the second student at my university to ever even apply, let alone be accepted to an MD/PhD program. I was our first Goldwater scholar and the second student to ever score above a 35 or so on my MCAT.

I am a firm believer that it is what you do and not where you do it at that matters. Your ECs, research background so far, etc. are impressive. Just get good recs from your princeton PIs, score high on the MCAT, get some more clinical exposure, and make sure you can articulate why you want to pursue an MD/PhD (the only thing that seems out of place in your background is your non-biomedically oriented research experiences.... but you can spin this in your favor I suppose or you can try to get a summer position in a biomed/biochem project).

Good luck. Let me know if I can supply any more advice, etc.

Thanks! Your story is encouraging.

I've always been an advocate of "what you do" as well but I was just concerned that there's a lack of biomedical research going on at my school (which is why I'm forced to partake in analytical chemistry research).

However, my research experience at Princeton was a molecular biology/cancer project and the project I'll be doing in the Czech Republic is considered physical biochemistry.

I'm just worried about competing against the kids who do year round biomedical research at their big schools

How much research experience did you have?

As program director, I agree... go for the GOLD! Just make sure that you make a clear and convincing case about your sustained interest for research. Now, the issue is to be able to reflect critically on the strengths and weaknesses of what you did when you interview. You will be interviewed, apply to 10 top MSTPs, 2-4 mid-MSTP near where you live, and 1-2 low MSTP/ large MD/PhD programs. You will be able to triage interviews as they come, but you still want to have a safe landing place, after all, see what you have done where you are.

PM if needed.

I had about four years of research experience in six labs haha. I am a somewhat unusual applicant perhaps. I have done research in Psychology, Biology, and Chemistry at my university. Three years with my Psych PI working on Traumatic Brain Injury research and an honors thesis, three years on and off in a cancer genetics lab where I am also doing an honors thesis, then I dabbled here and there with XRay crystallography and Organic Synthesis for a semester. I also did two summer research programs (one in Brazil - biochemistry related and the other in the U.S. with Stem Cell Biology which is what I want to do my PhD in).

So needless to say, you can definitely get in to a program even with an unusual and often times very difficult to explain research background

Anyways, I think you are on the right track for sure. You will have a lot of unique rsch experiences to talk about in personal statements and interviews. With a 4.0 and a 38-42 MCAT and your rsch background so far, I think as long as you can carry a conversation and write a decent personal statement you will have no trouble getting interviews and acceptances. Fencer makes a good point about applying broadly (and also apply early! don't procrastinate like me ).

Also I would not consider transferring to another university just so you can gain access to more research... You have great grades, have made connections with faculty members and probably your pre-med committee, so why mess with a good thing and have to start from scratch at an institution where you will have to constantly compete for everything?

Does the city/state where your school is at not have a medical institution that perhaps you could partner with? Maybe a hospital has some clinical/basic science research that you could become a part of... Also consider applying for the Goldwater Scholarship... I would imagine you would be one of the first from your institutions as well

Edit:

Also you should start thinking about what type of research you ultimately hope to pursue... Do you want to be physical biochemist person, or work on cancer or cell based projects? If the later, be prepared for questions about why you did not try to experience that field as an undergrad. I think PDs might expect you to be a biophysics/biochemist person and if that is not what you want to do, then try to get at least one summer of research in the field you think you want to pursue. That is what I did with my summer of stem cell biology research and I made sure to explain how my psych/chem/cancer bio background taught me valuable research skills but that I know I want to pursue stem cell biology because of the work I did over the summer!

Originally Posted by Fencer

As program director, I agree... go for the GOLD! Just make sure that you make a clear and convincing case about your sustained interest for research. Now, the issue is to be able to reflect critically on the strengths and weaknesses of what you did when you interview. You will be interviewed, apply to 10 top MSTPs, 2-4 mid-MSTP near where you live, and 1-2 low MSTP/ large MD/PhD programs. You will be able to triage interviews as they come, but you still want to have a safe landing place, after all, see what you have done where you are.

PM if needed.

Can you elaborate on how you classify mid-MSTP and low MSTP? Are large MD/PhD programs considered bad (since you grouped them with low MSTP)? Thanks!

Originally Posted by chartreusee

Can you elaborate on how you classify mid-MSTP and low MSTP? Are large MD/PhD programs considered bad (since you grouped them with low MSTP)? Thanks!

I may be wrong on this, but I think Fencer meant that in terms of choosing safety schools normally lower ranked MSTP programs (some place like Medical University of South Carolina comes to my mind) and large non-MSTP funded MD/PhD programs (i.e. has a large class size 6-11 students like University of Nebraska vs. 2 students per year like Wake Forest) are generally the ones to look for.

As an FYI, University of Nebraska has a really great MD/PhD program... They generally get only 40-60 applicants total and interview 20 for a class of 6. It is a great program and a great safety school as well.

And I do not think these programs are bad by any means... just easier to get in to and insure you will be accepted somewhere... If you only apply to top ten universities, regardless of your stats, odds are much more likely that you will not get in anywhere. If you apply broadly, then at least you will not be homeless/programless if the top schools do not work out for some reason.

Originally Posted by Piper9132

I may be wrong on this, but I think Fencer meant that in terms of choosing safety schools normally lower ranked MSTP programs (some place like Medical University of South Carolina comes to my mind) and large non-MSTP funded MD/PhD programs (i.e. has a large class size 6-11 students like University of Nebraska vs. 2 students per year like Wake Forest) are generally the ones to look for.

As an FYI, University of Nebraska has a really great MD/PhD program... They generally get only 40-60 applicants total and interview 20 for a class of 6. It is a great program and a great safety school as well.

And I do not think these programs are bad by any means... just easier to get in to and insure you will be accepted somewhere... If you only apply to top ten universities, regardless of your stats, odds are much more likely that you will not get in anywhere. If you apply broadly, then at least you will not be homeless/programless if the top schools do not work out for some reason.

I guess I'm wondering how MSTP are ranked. How do you say School A is lower ranked than School B? Is it by their rank in research on the US News School Ranking? From what I've read, it seems that many people on SDN feel that these rankings are ambiguous at best. Thanks!

Yes, USNews is generally what people refer to with Med School Rankings (Times Higher eduction also does a world Medical Ranking) but I think the "top-10" programs in the minds of professors (personal experience) is actually broader than the 10 on the list any given year and is a more amorphous idea of what the "best" schools are. You can also look at gross NIH dollars per institution in a given year (easily found on NIH reporter), but this is also a relatively amorphous metric as it does not account for all sources of funding and doesn't tell you how well funded individual faculty are (FYI, at Harvard and Harvard affiliated institutions the average funding per faculty is around 150,000 a year.....barely enough to pay one technician and buy some antibodies.....but there are certainly PIs pulling in multiple millions all on their own as well. How does that "rank" out?).

Personally I would take the top-20 schools on the US News list and get personal narrative from research faculty about each to decide "best" places in order to decide where to apply.

Originally Posted by Piper9132

I had about four years of research experience in six labs haha. I am a somewhat unusual applicant perhaps. I have done research in Psychology, Biology, and Chemistry at my university. Three years with my Psych PI working on Traumatic Brain Injury research and an honors thesis, three years on and off in a cancer genetics lab where I am also doing an honors thesis, then I dabbled here and there with XRay crystallography and Organic Synthesis for a semester. I also did two summer research programs (one in Brazil - biochemistry related and the other in the U.S. with Stem Cell Biology which is what I want to do my PhD in).

So needless to say, you can definitely get in to a program even with an unusual and often times very difficult to explain research background

Anyways, I think you are on the right track for sure. You will have a lot of unique rsch experiences to talk about in personal statements and interviews. With a 4.0 and a 38-42 MCAT and your rsch background so far, I think as long as you can carry a conversation and write a decent personal statement you will have no trouble getting interviews and acceptances. Fencer makes a good point about applying broadly (and also apply early! don't procrastinate like me ).

Also I would not consider transferring to another university just so you can gain access to more research... You have great grades, have made connections with faculty members and probably your pre-med committee, so why mess with a good thing and have to start from scratch at an institution where you will have to constantly compete for everything?

Does the city/state where your school is at not have a medical institution that perhaps you could partner with? Maybe a hospital has some clinical/basic science research that you could become a part of... Also consider applying for the Goldwater Scholarship... I would imagine you would be one of the first from your institutions as well

Edit:

Also you should start thinking about what type of research you ultimately hope to pursue... Do you want to be physical biochemist person, or work on cancer or cell based projects? If the later, be prepared for questions about why you did not try to experience that field as an undergrad. I think PDs might expect you to be a biophysics/biochemist person and if that is not what you want to do, then try to get at least one summer of research in the field you think you want to pursue. That is what I did with my summer of stem cell biology research and I made sure to explain how my psych/chem/cancer bio background taught me valuable research skills but that I know I want to pursue stem cell biology because of the work I did over the summer!

Thanks for the suggestions! I talked to a psychology professor today about helping her with research, and she was excited because of my math background and the statistics involved... So did you count your psych research as research experience too?

I want to be a biophysics/biochemist person, so I can support my decision since my research at Princeton was part of an REU program in "molecular biophysics", as was my project.

And you're right... I will be the first applying for Goldwater lol...

One more question: If I have semesters or summers of research can I count that as a "year"?