Narcissists do better in interviews

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Update 1/23/13: More new info about how skewed interviews are: http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/...udy-shows?lite
I really think interviews shouldn't be given half the weight they are.



http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_...heres-why?lite

Granted this looks more at business interviews, but still interesting.


Of course, for med school specifically, I'm sure most remember this gem: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2789141/

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_...heres-why?lite

Granted this looks more at business interviews, but still interesting.

Interesting article. Looks like my mother-in-law could get into HMS with her personality.

She's an RT, and I'll never forget her telling me that although I was going to be a physician, I'll never know more than her about medicine since she's been "doing it" way longer....

Originally Posted by TNMD2BE

Interesting article. Looks like my mother-in-law could get into HMS with her personality.

She's an RT, and I'll never forget her telling me that although I was going to be a physician, I'll never know more than her about medicine since she's been "doing it" way longer....

Lol, nice. I bet she can piss off radiologists pretty well.


I've always wondered wherein the balance lies between appearing confident and avoid coming off as flippant. This would suggest the ideal leans toward the former. Not to mention it supports my notion that other than ensuring someone isn't totally socially incompetent, interviews do a poor job of predicting job performance. Though no one really cares what I think and it's just what we have to deal with, maybe some day it'll catch on.

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

yeah, i know there are some stark differences in the two settings. Though I have heard of some schools scrambling to find interviewers, so I wonder if they are all as skilled interviewers.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

Does it matter if the fast-talking is due to arrogance (as this article suggested), nervousness and over-preparation (as you seem to suggest), or just that the person seems to simply be a naturally fast speaker? I feel like those three types are rather separate, but are all of them no good in med school interviews?

Looks like I need to start talking faster and louder.

I tend to low-talk when nervous. Better work on that...

Speaking at a slower pace allows you to be more articulate and immensely helps with eradicating "um" from your vocabulary.

I believe Narcissism was suppose to have been removed from the DSM V, at least that was the rumor on my psych rotation from the attending last year. If so it may make the article moot.

Do want a doctor who talks very, very fast due to culture (learned behavior), arrogance, nervousness, or overpreparation (knows everything cold and has given this talk a hundred times)?

Interesting article...

This is from Wikipedia:

Healthy narcissism
Healthy narcissism is a structural truthfulness of the self, achievement of self and object constancy, synchronization between the self and the superego and a balance between libidinal and aggressive drives (the ability to receive gratification from others and the drive for impulse expression). Healthy narcissism forms a constant, realistic self-interest and mature goals and principles and an ability to form deep object relations.[7] A feature related to healthy narcissism is the feeling of greatness. This is the antithesis of insecurity or inadequacy.
Campbell and Foster (2007)[14] review the literature on narcissism. They argue that narcissists possess the following "basic ingredients":

• Positive: Narcissists think they are better than others.[15]
• Inflated: Narcissists' views tend to be contrary to reality. In measures that compare self-report to objective measures, narcissists' self-views tend to be greatly exaggerated.[16]
• Agentic: Narcissists’ views tend to be most exaggerated in the agentic domain, relative to the communion domain.[clarification needed][15][16]
• Special: Narcissists perceive themselves to be unique and special people.[17]
• Selfish: Research upon narcissists’ behaviour in resource dilemmas supports the case for narcissists as being selfish.[18]
• Oriented toward success: Narcissists are oriented towards success by being, for example, approach oriented.[clarification needed][19]

Heritability of narcissism utilizing twin studies
Livesley et al. concluded, in agreement with other studies, that narcissism as measured by a standardized test[21] was a common inherited trait.[22] Additionally, in similar agreement with those other studies, it was found that there exists a continuum between normal and disordered personality.
The study subjects were 175 volunteer twin pairs (ninety identical, eighty-five fraternal) drawn from the general population. Each twin completed a questionnaire that assessed eighteen dimensions of personality disorder. The authors estimated the heritability of each dimension of personality by standard methods, thus providing estimates of the relative contributions of genetic and environmental causation.
Of the eighteen personality dimensions, narcissism was found to have the highest heritability (0.64), indicating that the concordance of this trait in the identical twins was significantly influenced by genetics. Of the other dimensions of personality, only four were found to have heritability coefficients of greater than 0.5: callousness, identity problems, oppositionality and social avoidance.

Originally Posted by dd128

I believe Narcissism was suppose to have been removed from the DSM V, at least that was the rumor on my psych rotation from the attending last year. If so it may make the article moot.

I don't think that really matters. Whether or not we are considering narcissism an official mental disease doesn't matter. The study used questions to identify those who exhibited narcissistic behavior. Similarly, histrionic personality disorder is supposed to be removed as well, but there is still such a thing as histrionic behavior. Supposedly the changes in the DSM are due to moving to a more dimensional rather than categorical approach, so they are getting rid of several terms.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled.

I'm doomed, I'm probably one of the most soft-spoken student at my college (or so says my professors)

Originally Posted by Neurosis

I'm doomed, I'm probably one of the most soft-spoken student at my college (or so says my professors)

I'm pretty shy and soft-spoken as well. My interviews generally went a lot better when I was being a bit shameless () and less self-conscious, it helped me open up to my interviewers. Maybe this strategy would work for you too .

.

Originally Posted by dd128

I believe Narcissism was suppose to have been removed from the DSM V, at least that was the rumor on my psych rotation from the attending last year. If so it may make the article moot.

Actually, the DSM 5. No more roman numerals.

This article, and every other news article that tries to write about these studies, should link the study. How did they preclude the "sorted-out" narcissists from other personable traits? What if the college student was smart and actually knew what they were talking about? Or how did the non-verbal communication affected this? Maybe the interviewer who was an "expert" may have expressed some alpha-like non-verbal. There's another article talking about how homophobes are likely to be homosexual...same journal. But there's no link to the study.

The thing about interviews is you don't ever need to come off differently than who you are; you just amp who you are up twice, three times your normal level. And depending on the scenario, the interviewer who only talked about sports, what's to say that the interviewer was just not really interested in the applicant and had to interview them anyways? For example, when I had my research assistant interviews, I got grilled with a bunch of science questions to gauge my knowledge level; well, the other applicants didn't seem to have answered so many and had a casual conversation. Well, for science, most likely, an interested person will ask subject-related matters. For my marketing internship interview, I had to answer so many hypothetical scenarios as did other applicants; I guess the difference was that I stayed bright while positively-received interjections about non-interview-related matters (that I had 0% care for). My little theory is that I have to be twice as energetic as normal which is why I feel so drained after interviews.

.

Originally Posted by Neurosis

I'm doomed, I'm probably one of the most soft-spoken student at my college (or so says my professors)

As with almost everything, practice and great preparation can significantly help you improve as a speaker.

Yes! Finally, my Oklahoma draw is going to pay off!

Of course...we talk loud. Better fix that.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

So is speaking quickly to get everything in during an MMI a bad thing? When you're given exactly 7 minutes -- including the introduction/meeting the interviewer -- to answer a question like "Why medicine?" as a non-trad, there is far more to say than can be said in that amount of time. As a result, I know that in answering that question, I tend to speak quickly while pausing on occasion to allow for questions.

Originally Posted by music2doc

So is speaking quickly to get everything in during an MMI a bad thing? When you're given exactly 7 minutes -- including the introduction/meeting the interviewer -- to answer a question like "Why medicine?" as a non-trad, there is far more to say than can be said in that amount of time. As a result, I know that in answering that question, I tend to speak quickly while pausing on occasion to allow for questions.

I can't speak to MMIs but I doubt that it is necessary to speak that quickly... look at how long TV hosts interview a guest... most clock in at less than 7 minutes.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

How is a soft-talker, a loud-talker, or a non-talker trying to fool you?

Though I am curious do you usually find any genuine correlation between interview performance and how well someone does in medical school? I am sure the interview process certainly does allow you to weed out bull****ters and unpleasant or nasty people - and it would be absurd to let someone into a school who admissions personnel have never met; but is nervousness during an interview that great of a predictor of poor future performance?

Originally Posted by LizzyM

I can't speak to MMIs but I doubt that it is necessary to speak that quickly... look at how long TV hosts interview a guest... most clock in at less than 7 minutes.

Maybe not. I'm not really sure how fast I've ended up speaking; I was simply curious about that. Interviews tend to make people nervous and so they likely speak faster to begin with. I know it feels fast in an MMI setting (vs. a regular interview), likely because one is attempting to establish rapport with the evaluator and as well as trying to effectively respond to the question in a limited period of time.

Originally Posted by BiopsychStudent

How is a soft-talker, a loud-talker, or a non-talker trying to fool you?

Though I am curious do you usually find any genuine correlation between interview performance and how well someone does in medical school? I am sure the interview process certainly does allow you to weed out bull****ters and unpleasant or nasty people - and it would be absurd to let someone into a school who admissions personnel have never met; but is nervousness during an interview that great of a predictor of poor future performance?

When we can only admit 30-60% of those lucky enough to get an interivew, we can be pretty picky and not worry too much about false positives (not admitting someone who would do fine) but trying to avoid false negatives (admitting someone who is a disaster in school or in practice).

With nervousness, you have to sort out the interview nerves from the nerves that are so pervasive that the person is not going to be able to present a patient at morning report, or take a history, or respond to questions on rounds. An applicant who comes off as very nervous is not "self-assured" and that tends to be what we are looking for.

Originally Posted by samanthablondie

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0402144738.htm

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=903685

JOB interviews. They do better in JOB interviews.

Merging.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

I don't know, I'm a pretty "loud" talker (my voice really carries and I often don't realize how loud I'm speaking) and I did fine. I can imagine that the soft-spoken, quiet types are at the biggest disadvantage. Talking yourself up too much is still better than not talking much at all.

Challenging lizzym on these forums is a bit scary, but let me say that everyone that interviews think they are good at telling. Sure, some have more experience interviewing, but they still are humans and err. Of course when you are given an article that says they are narcissist you already have your hindsight bias to tell you can't be fooled, but unless there is some controlled study, humans are still human. Reminds me of the study where psychiatrists can't do better at telling liars, but they could easily argue, when there isn't evidence to the contrary available, that they should be better than the general public.

Sent from my SCH-R910 using Tapatalk

One more reason to apply broadly and interview everywhere until you get an offer. What turns off one interviewer may be fine with another and you just never know.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

Nobody likes to think they are, but even the faculty interviewers were fooled:

Sure enough, most people were more impressed by the narcissists than the “normal,” applicants. Harms was surprised to see that the experts, graduate students and faculty from the psychology department who were well versed in narcissistic behaviors, were just as impressed with the narcissists performance in interviews as everyone else.

Also, I never did anywhere near that many interviews in a year.

Here's another article on interview bias:
http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/...udy-shows?lite

Seems like every study they do on interviews just reveals how skewed they are based on psychological phenomena. I really don't see why they are given much weight beyond screening out the obviously crazy. Historically they served as a good excuse for getting away with practices that people really shouldn't (e.g. nepotism/cronyism, avoiding too many of a certain ethnic or religious group), but as an actually useful metric, it seems to be quite poor.

Originally Posted by Dr. Ducky

Interesting article. Looks like my mother-in-law could get into HMS with her personality.

She's an RT, and I'll never forget her telling me that although I was going to be a physician, I'll never know more than her about medicine since she's been "doing it" way longer....

Damn... I think we might have the same MIL haha

To what extent are we labeling someone as a narcisist?

Everyone who has posted in the thread has probably has narcistic tendencies. I don't see how this even matters unless the person is an extreme narcisist.

Originally Posted by Dires

To what extent are we labeling someone as a narcisist?

Everyone who has posted in the thread has probably has narcistic tendencies. I don't see how this even matters unless the person is an extreme narcisist.

Everyone has some narcissistic tendencies. I think they're talking about those with NPD. Black/White thinkers, quick to anger, self-absorbed, etc.

From Mayoclinic.com

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

I'm not adcoms, but I feel that it's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate a 30 minute interview performance to everyday job performance 4 years later after completing medical school. Plus,I feel that different personalities fit different specialties (e.g. exta-extroverts in emergency medicine, quieter, soft-spoken BUT socially competent types in some specialties) ...But I'm a naive applicant.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

What about the people who have a really happy and outgoing personality? I have the personality of a golden retriever and I've often wondered if I should try and tone it down for the interview.. Wouldn't that be similar to the "loud" people? Or be perceived as less genuine? My entire life whenever I walk around or talk to people im smiling. Always. Its natural for me and it makes it so I make friends quickly and people have said they appreciate that about me, but i dont want to make my interviewer feel awkward and I don't want to be taken less seriously or be seen as flighty.

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

What about the people who have a really happy and outgoing personality? I have the personality of a golden retriever and I've often wondered if I should try and tone it down for the interview.. Wouldn't that be similar to the "loud" people? Or be perceived as less genuine? My entire life whenever I walk around or talk to people im smiling. Always. Its natural for me and it makes it so I make friends quickly and people have said they appreciate that about me, but i dont want to make my interviewer feel awkward and I don't want to be taken less seriously or be seen as flighty.

The questions interviewers tend to have are, "would I want a person with this personality in my classroom or small group? eating lunch with my team every day for a month? taking care of my mother?"

Different interviewers have different opinions which, as I said above, is another good reason to apply broadly and accept interviews that come your way. You never know what is going to be perceived as positive or negative but it is never a bad idea to "be yourself" as you would be if you were meeting with a patient's family member (i.e. a person who is not sick) or someone who is going to hire you for a job. If they are casual, laid back and making a joke, you can laugh. If they act like their dog just died, you might want to behave more along the lines of how you would behave in a funeral parlor.

Originally Posted by SOMBound13

Everyone has some narcissistic tendencies. I think they're talking about those with NPD. Black/White thinkers, quick to anger, self-absorbed, etc.

From Mayoclinic.com

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

That list just sounds like a rotten personality, that's all. But in seriousness, if the article says its for a business interview it would make sense that having that kind of personality might be appealing in the corporate world. My aunt has a personality very similar to the one described, and she cut her way up to VP of a major corporation and is making tons and tons of money. As far as the medical field, though, I think it's a whole different ball game. I've heard too many stories of arrogant doctors who have seriously emotionally hurt their patients. Interestingly with each story I hear most of the time the patient's nurse jumps all over them until the dr goes back and apologizes.

Ps thanks LizzyM ! I always appreciate and value your wisdom.

That list just sounds like a rotten personality, that's all.

Rotten Personality = Personality Disorder

Originally Posted by SOMBound13

Rotten Personality = Personality Disorder

*facepalm* oh yeah, I forgot my bad haha

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The questions interviewers tend to have are, "would I want a person with this personality in my classroom or small group? eating lunch with my team every day for a month? taking care of my mother?"

Different interviewers have different opinions which, as I said above, is another good reason to apply broadly and accept interviews that come your way. You never know what is going to be perceived as positive or negative but it is never a bad idea to "be yourself" as you would be if you were meeting with a patient's family member (i.e. a person who is not sick) or someone who is going to hire you for a job. If they are casual, laid back and making a joke, you can laugh. If they act like their dog just died, you might want to behave more along the lines of how you would behave in a funeral parlor.

That made me giggle

Originally Posted by SOMBound13

Rotten Personality = Personality Disorder

edit:
Rotten Personality = Rotten Personality Disorder

Originally Posted by LizzyM

The fast talkers (particularly those that sound rehearsed), loud talkers, soft talkers, and non-talkers are all toast when it comes to medical school interviews. We aren't easily fooled. Keep in mind, too, that most people interviewing applicants for their unit only do a few interviews per year (if that) while medical school interviewers often do 50 or more per year and then see how things work out with the students who matriculate.

Cool story