MD after Ph.D.

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Hello
So I have a long way to go before i apply but I wanted to get some opinions. I am going to be starting a Ph.D. in the fall in the sciences,particularly pharmacology. I am an older student 28 and I am interested in applying to Medical School after I finish my Ph.D. I am interested in becoming a physician scientist and focusing my interests in oncology.I would prefer to have both degrees to fully see patients while participating in clinical trials. While i have read that my Ph.D. wont give me a leg up, I am interested to know the application process as far as pre-reqs/ Undergraduate GPA since this is the most important part. Since my pre/reqs sciences are past the 5 year deadline, would they consider just the classes i had to retake because they were out dated or my science career as a whole? Thankfullly the phd allow me to be published and i am able to participate in clinical trials. I am open to applying to DO schools as well. But just would like opinions.

I am pretty ok with the lack of life. By the time i am looking to apply and matriculate, my son will be grown and i'll be on my own...
Thanks

Originally Posted by Prettypuff1

Hello
So I have a long way to go before i apply but I wanted to get some opinions. I am going to be starting a Ph.D. in the fall in the sciences,particularly pharmacology. I am an older student 28 and I am interested in applying to Medical School after I finish my Ph.D. I am interested in becoming a physician scientist and focusing my interests in oncology.I would prefer to have both degrees to fully see patients while participating in clinical trials. While i have read that my Ph.D. wont give me a leg up, I am interested to know the application process as far as pre-reqs/ Undergraduate GPA since this is the most important part. Since my pre/reqs sciences are past the 5 year deadline, would they consider just the classes i had to retake because they were out dated or my science career as a whole? Thankfullly the phd allow me to be published and i am able to participate in clinical trials. I am open to applying to DO schools as well. But just would like opinions.

I am pretty ok with the lack of life. By the time i am looking to apply and matriculate, my son will be grown and i'll be on my own...
Thanks

You have no idea how long and hard this road is, and being dirt poor into your 40's isn't as glamorous as it sounds. You don't need a PhD to do research, especially clinical trials. If you're just dying to get one then matriculate MD and transfer into a combined program during M2. It will shorten the process and make remainder of med school free.

Otherwise just get an MD and do a research residency or postdoc. This will get you to the same place quicker, cheaper, and with a tiny fraction of the stress and heartbreak.

Medical schools love mature applicants. They don't want a pool filled with 22-23 year olds. So, don't worry about being at a disadvantage. Your PhD will definitely get you exposed to a lot of research and it might make for some interesting talk at interviews, too. A PhD itself doesn't really boost up a med school application, though. So you've been warned.

The MCATs should also be something you need to keep in mind. If it's been too long since you've taken your science classes, then that might be a problem.

Gut Shot has a very nice point though. Are you financially stable to go on this path?

The solution is simple, you shouldn't matriculate into your Ph.D. program. Flat out, it will waste your time if your final goal is to be a physician scientist, especially taking into consideration your age. If your GPA is too low for a feasible shot into M.D. (and thats why you're doing Ph.D.) think about a masters or applying DO. If it's too low for that, think Caribbean or some other option.

it's difficult to gauge how long a ph.d. is going to take. if you do a combined program, they kinda rush you through so it doesn't take as long. but for a more traditional program, you could be there for 7 or more years and by the time you finish all your training, you could find yourself in your mid-40s.

Ya OP you need to ask yourself, are you okay with being broke to the point where you cant really enjoy life during the remaining best years of your life? Lets face it, 20s are prime time... followed by 30s.

Masochism?

Would you consider pulling out of this program and applying for a combined Ph.D/MD? I know that these are MUCH harder to get into than normal MDs, but even if you matriculate into one in two or three years, you'll be saving at LEAST two years, probably more.

If you really want this, you can do it. However, as another poster said, 14 years is a long ass time to be in school. I'm not sure if you've already made this decision yet, but talk to people about it.

I will say, though, that when all is said and done, convenience is the most dangerous addiction, and nothing worthwhile is ever easy. However, I DO think there are more and less efficient ways to accomplish both your goals. This may involve intellectual/professional/financial compromise (at least initially), it may not. The choice is yours.

You were smart enough to get into this program and you're smart enough to be an MD. It's all about your free will now. Good luck to you.

Originally Posted by realmeaning

Masochism?

Would you consider pulling out of this program and applying for a combined Ph.D/MD? I know that these are MUCH harder to get into than normal MDs, but even if you matriculate into one in two or three years, you'll be saving at LEAST two years, probably more.

If you really want this, you can do it. However, as another poster said, 14 years is a long ass time to be in school. I'm not sure if you've already made this decision yet, but talk to people about it.

I will say, though, that when all is said and done, convenience is the most dangerous addiction, and nothing worthwhile is ever easy. However, I DO think there are more and less efficient ways to accomplish both your goals. This may involve intellectual/professional/financial compromise (at least initially), it may not. The choice is yours.

You were smart enough to get into this program and you're smart enough to be an MD. It's all about your free will now. Good luck to you.

I right now i am in the planning and thinking phase. i am really considering the broad " What if" question. The debt/ finaicial situation is what really concerns me about medical school, the high debt and the long road before financial freedom is concerning. I think the age/ prime years is one of those things that i am used to by now. I am a single mom with good financial support from my family and I have already given up most of my " free time/ prime years" with parenting. I think I am overall more interested in having an excellent career and think the other things will come.. Just my personality and such I am more focus on having a great career and I am more willing to have the loss of social life...

My undergrad grades don't suck; but they aren't traditional MD standards.. 3.3 science , 3.1 overall... I havent taken the MCAT yet, but my GRE scores were 1300/1800 which is decently competitive for Ph.D. programs. I am not hoping for my undergrad to " go away and get into harvard" but more hoping if i were to apply admissions counselors would take both sides into consideration and not totally say nay nay. I am coming into this program now with an MS.. average time for the Pharmacology PhD is 4 years so 4+7=11 years... Im 28 now.. 39 wouldn't be too terrible.I think this takes more consideration but i just wanted some opinions of those who are in the thick of applications/med school.. please keep them coming/ point me to some places on the forum to consider....
Thanks

Originally Posted by Prettypuff1

I right now i am in the planning and thinking phase. i am really considering the broad " What if" question. The debt/ finaicial situation is what really concerns me about medical school, the high debt and the long road before financial freedom is concerning. I think the age/ prime years is one of those things that i am used to by now. I am a single mom with good financial support from my family and I have already given up most of my " free time/ prime years" with parenting. I think I am overall more interested in having an excellent career and think the other things will come.. Just my personality and such I am more focus on having a great career and I am more willing to have the loss of social life...

My undergrad grades don't suck; but they aren't traditional MD standards.. 3.3 science , 3.1 overall... I havent taken the MCAT yet, but my GRE scores were 1300/1800 which is decently competitive for Ph.D. programs. I am not hoping for my undergrad to " go away and get into harvard" but more hoping if i were to apply admissions counselors would take both sides into consideration and not totally say nay nay. I am coming into this program now with an MS.. average time for the Pharmacology PhD is 4 years so 4+7=11 years... Im 28 now.. 39 wouldn't be too terrible.I think this takes more consideration but i just wanted some opinions of those who are in the thick of applications/med school.. please keep them coming/ point me to some places on the forum to consider....
Thanks

To be honest, with your undergrad stats the DO route is the more likely option.

This PhD will in no way make up for or in anyway ameliorate your below average undergraduate GPA. Decide that you want to be a physician and take steps NOW to get into a DO or MD program, or decide that you want to be a pharmacology researcher and proceed with the PhD program in the fall.

Again: Your PhD GPA will be reported separately on your AMCAS. Schools will screen out applications based on your undergraduate GPA and your undergraduate science GPA so your graduate GPA will have absolutely no bearing on these 2 numbers. Moreover, graduate classes are notorious for their grade inflation so a strong showing GPA wise may not necessarily be considered to be all that impressive. Too many people get MPHs or other graduate degrees with the conscious or unconscious hope that this will make up for a poor undergraduate showing. With the possible exception of specialized master's programs designed exclusively for that purpose, this is absolutely not the case.

As for the length of time of the program and your age (really secondary issues to your GPA problem in my opinion), nothing is guaranteed in grad student land. The average time may be 4 years, but you don't know what unique problems you could encounter that set you back. MD/PhD programs are designed to take 4 years for the PhD portion, and even students in those programs can stumble and end up taking 7 or 8 years to do a PhD. You cannot make this decision assuming everything will work out perfectly in your situation.

OP, you are right in thinking this will take much reflection and consideration. Accordingly, I will attempt to categorically segregate the different concerns for your situation. Warning: this will be a long post.

Pre-requisite courses: I am not aware of a 5-year policy for how old pre-req courses can be, but if you are missing any at all, definitely find a way to complete these before applying. Non-degree seeking or post-bacc programs in your area may be something you need to consider. Also, if you plan on applying DO, retaking courses will be a wise decision because of their grade replacement policy. You could really bolster your app for DO schools this way. MD schools don't offer grade replacement, so I'm not knowledgeable on how attainable an MD/PhD acceptance would be. I would encourage you to research more into requirements for MD/PhD.

Clinical Experience: How much do you have? If you're lacking, get crackin'. Hospital volunteering, shadowing, non-medical stuff. Definitely shadowing. I understand this may be difficult given that you are a single mother. Try your best to accomplish this if you don't have as much clinical experience.

Medical School: Although I have to admit your undergrad GPA is more in line with pursuing the DO route, there is also the downside of not being able to get a PhD (at a DO school) in a field pertinent to your ultimate goal of oncology research. A lot of DO schools are unfortunately severely limited in research opportunities and may only offer PhDs in Health Policy or something of the sort (not very applicable for oncology research). One school that sticks out to me is Michigan State, because I know MSU has a lot more research opportunities due to the fact that they also have an MD program. I was considering MSU's dual program because of their pharmacology and toxicology track (http://www.com.msu.edu/research/PhD-Admissions.html). According to MSU's DO/PhD website, your GRE is average (MSU: 580 Verbal, 720 Quantitative). Their website also states that the avg MCAT is 29-32, so you need to make sure you hit this mark. Study hard.

Research Goals: I have a background in pharmacology and am also looking to pursue research residencies and fellowships after medical school. However, I'm not too sure how necessary a PhD is for oncology research. I guess it depends on whether you are interested in translational research. That is, bench-to-bedside type of research. In this case, I would unequivocally say that a laboratory PhD would help tremendously. There is a researcher that works next to me that has a MD/PhD and does animal model studies as well as clinical trials, so clearly a PhD is helpful/?needed? in his case. However, if you are more interested in doing clinical research with anti-cancer drugs, then I would say that a PhD is probably not worth it, as you don't need a PhD to do clinical trial research if you already have a medical degree.

Other considerations: Since you haven't taken the MCAT yet, I agree with another poster in that it may pose as a problem. It would probably be wise to retake some courses for preparation. If you feel that you don't have to/are unable to do so, then you may also consider enrolling in a prep course (class or online) or allot 2+ months of solid MCAT prep (there are some excellent threads on MCAT-prep).

You mentioned having a good financial support from your family. This sounds important to you and it should be considering the financial sacrifice of going to medical school for 4 years and 5-6+ years for residency and fellowship training. Pursuing a PhD while in medical school will help reduce the financial burden as there is usually tuition compensation for research involvement.

Conclusion: I would suggest not pursuing the PhD at this time and put intense focus on preparing to apply to medical schools. Retaking courses via non-degree seeking/post-bacc would take a year of an intense course-load, depending on how many you need to retake. Attending a Special Master's Program (Georgetown, UCinnci, BostonU, etc.) would help make you a more attractive applicant for MD schools, in particular. So you're looking at 1-2 years there. I know I mentioned DO a lot in this response, and I apologize if that bothers you. But as it stands, I agree with another poster that your GPA is more in line with this route. If you retake courses and do well, then there's nothing stopping you from applying broadly to MD and DO schools. I would encourage you to do so.

I've been going at this for a while now, so if anything else pops into my head I will edit to add, but I hope this has been helpful for your planning phase. Phew, that is all for now. Good luck, though! You can do it!

Originally Posted by scarletgirl777

This PhD will in no way make up for or in anyway ameliorate your below average undergraduate GPA. Decide that you want to be a physician and take steps NOW to get into a DO or MD program, or decide that you want to be a pharmacology researcher and proceed with the PhD program in the fall.

This. A few people go PhD -> MD out of necessity, having started down the wrong path in good faith. No sane person plans to do them sequentially.

Fortunately, this will all come clear to the OP by the time she's wrapping up her PhD.

I am in a slightly similar situation. I graduated in 2007, I am 27 and have very little professional experience since then (marriage etc). I got accepted into a good PhD program and recently took the decision to pursue an MD. I will matriculate then transfer when I get accepted into the MD program or MD/PhD. This will give me a chance to move to the states and do some clinical volunteering and complete some biology and chemistry courses and complete my application in the states. The difference is I am not completely determined to do the PhD and I am considering doing just the MD. I also have a good undergrad GPA, 3.89.

Originally Posted by DrDori

I am in a slightly similar situation. I graduated in 2007, I am 27 and have very little professional experience since then (marriage etc). I got accepted into a good PhD program and recently took the decision to pursue an MD. I will matriculate then transfer when I get accepted into the MD program or MD/PhD. This will give me a chance to move to the states and do some clinical volunteering and complete some biology and chemistry courses and complete my application in the states. The difference is I am not completely determined to do the PhD and I am considering doing just the MD. I also have a good undergrad GPA, 3.89.

It is extremely rare to transfer from a PhD to an MD/PhD. This will be compounded by your status as an international student. If you start a PhD program in engineering (which I gathered from your post history) your only options are to finish or drop out before applying for an MD. Neither is very appealing.

Originally Posted by NeuroLAX

OP, you are right in thinking this will take much reflection and consideration. Accordingly, I will attempt to categorically segregate the different concerns for your situation. Warning: this will be a long post.

Pre-requisite courses: I am not aware of a 5-year policy for how old pre-req courses can be, but if you are missing any at all, definitely find a way to complete these before applying. Non-degree seeking or post-bacc programs in your area may be something you need to consider. Also, if you plan on applying DO, retaking courses will be a wise decision because of their grade replacement policy. You could really bolster your app for DO schools this way. MD schools don't offer grade replacement, so I'm not knowledgeable on how attainable an MD/PhD acceptance would be. I would encourage you to research more into requirements for MD/PhD.

Clinical Experience: How much do you have? If you're lacking, get crackin'. Hospital volunteering, shadowing, non-medical stuff. Definitely shadowing. I understand this may be difficult given that you are a single mother. Try your best to accomplish this if you don't have as much clinical experience.

Medical School: Although I have to admit your undergrad GPA is more in line with pursuing the DO route, there is also the downside of not being able to get a PhD (at a DO school) in a field pertinent to your ultimate goal of oncology research. A lot of DO schools are unfortunately severely limited in research opportunities and may only offer PhDs in Health Policy or something of the sort (not very applicable for oncology research). One school that sticks out to me is Michigan State, because I know MSU has a lot more research opportunities due to the fact that they also have an MD program. I was considering MSU's dual program because of their pharmacology and toxicology track (http://www.com.msu.edu/research/PhD-Admissions.html). According to MSU's DO/PhD website, your GRE is average (MSU: 580 Verbal, 720 Quantitative). Their website also states that the avg MCAT is 29-32, so you need to make sure you hit this mark. Study hard.

Research Goals: I have a background in pharmacology and am also looking to pursue research residencies and fellowships after medical school. However, I'm not too sure how necessary a PhD is for oncology research. I guess it depends on whether you are interested in translational research. That is, bench-to-bedside type of research. In this case, I would unequivocally say that a laboratory PhD would help tremendously. There is a researcher that works next to me that has a MD/PhD and does animal model studies as well as clinical trials, so clearly a PhD is helpful/?needed? in his case. However, if you are more interested in doing clinical research with anti-cancer drugs, then I would say that a PhD is probably not worth it, as you don't need a PhD to do clinical trial research if you already have a medical degree.

Other considerations: Since you haven't taken the MCAT yet, I agree with another poster in that it may pose as a problem. It would probably be wise to retake some courses for preparation. If you feel that you don't have to/are unable to do so, then you may also consider enrolling in a prep course (class or online) or allot 2+ months of solid MCAT prep (there are some excellent threads on MCAT-prep).

You mentioned having a good financial support from your family. This sounds important to you and it should be considering the financial sacrifice of going to medical school for 4 years and 5-6+ years for residency and fellowship training. Pursuing a PhD while in medical school will help reduce the financial burden as there is usually tuition compensation for research involvement.

Conclusion: I would suggest not pursuing the PhD at this time and put intense focus on preparing to apply to medical schools. Retaking courses via non-degree seeking/post-bacc would take a year of an intense course-load, depending on how many you need to retake. Attending a Special Master's Program (Georgetown, UCinnci, BostonU, etc.) would help make you a more attractive applicant for MD schools, in particular. So you're looking at 1-2 years there. I know I mentioned DO a lot in this response, and I apologize if that bothers you. But as it stands, I agree with another poster that your GPA is more in line with this route. If you retake courses and do well, then there's nothing stopping you from applying broadly to MD and DO schools. I would encourage you to do so.

I've been going at this for a while now, so if anything else pops into my head I will edit to add, but I hope this has been helpful for your planning phase. Phew, that is all for now. Good luck, though! You can do it!

So what are the special programs you mentioned? I am pretty interested in hearing this. My Ph.D. program isn't so chemistry based. Mainly i'll be working with animal models to investigate metastasis and looking at markers for cancer and differences in certain populations. I am not averse to taking the DO route and that seems to be the best route for me for the retaking policy. For MCAT I have seen the beast it is, so for me studying would be a necessity. My GRE scores are ok but i definitely didnt study as much as i should have MCAT would be definitely require a class.... Retaking physics is a must because i did well but i don't remember any of it...

For me the, Ph.D. isnt a route into medical school. I understand that won't really help. I do want my PhD very badly and I was hoping to also see if it is possible to link my research interests and desire to see and treat patients. If it doesnt happen I'll be ok . I also have to see how my program goes because i may change my mind about this and decide that the PhD route is good for me.


So.. more inputs please and thank you

Originally Posted by Prettypuff1

For me the, Ph.D. isnt a route into medical school. I understand that won't really help. I do want my PhD very badly and I was hoping to also see if it is possible to link my research interests and desire to see and treat patients.

Again, getting a PhD because you want to conduct clinical research as a physician is like swatting a fly with a Buick. It is absolutely unnecessary, and the process will only decrease the odds that you will end up matriculating into an MD or DO program.

Originally Posted by NeuroLAX

Conclusion: I would suggest not pursuing the PhD at this time and put intense focus on preparing to apply to medical schools. Retaking courses via non-degree seeking/post-bacc would take a year of an intense course-load, depending on how many you need to retake. Attending a Special Master's Program (Georgetown, UCinnci, BostonU, etc.) would help make you a more attractive applicant for MD schools, in particular. So you're looking at 1-2 years there. I know I mentioned DO a lot in this response, and I apologize if that bothers you. But as it stands, I agree with another poster that your GPA is more in line with this route. If you retake courses and do well, then there's nothing stopping you from applying broadly to MD and DO schools. I would encourage you to do so.

I did my PhD in basic research and will be starting med school this year. From my perspective, the above advice is the best one, because 1) you don't have a good undergrad gpa and a good grad gpa will not help you, whereas a good pre-med master's program gpa will. 2) given your interest in clinical research (not basic or translational), I think a full-blown PhD (whatever the field) will be an unnecessary delay in reaching your goals. You can always enter a medical school that allows its students to take a year off to do research, enter a residency program with a lot of protected research time, or do a postdoc. It is always much much easier and favorably looked upon to get your foot in the MD world and add the research credentials later on, as opposed to starting as a researcher and deciding that you also want to be a clinician. One more thing that worries me a little bit is your age (I assume this is at least a little bit of a concern since you mention it), because I realize more and more after I passed my mid-20's that not everything is time-invariant, at least to me.

We need catalystik here.

Originally Posted by Gut Shot

It is extremely rare to transfer from a PhD to an MD/PhD. This will be compounded by your status as an international student. If you start a PhD program in engineering (which I gathered from your post history) your only options are to finish or drop out before applying for an MD. Neither is very appealing.

Are you saying that I should leave the PhD program BEFORE I apply to medical school? that is too risky. Is it really such a negative thing to be enrolled in a PhD in engineering while I apply to med school? My plan is basically to start the PhD till I get accepted in the MD program. Right now the MD is kind of a bird in the bush !

Originally Posted by DrDori

Are you saying that I should leave the PhD program BEFORE I apply to medical school? that is too risky. Is it really such a negative thing to be enrolled in a PhD in engineering while I apply to med school? My plan is basically to start the PhD till I get accepted in the MD program. Right now the MD is kind of a bird in the bush !

MD programs fall into two camps:
1. Those that will consider your application if you are almost finished with your PhD (provided your PI will vouch for this).
2. Those that will not even look at your application until you have finished and graduated with your PhD.

No MD program will look at you if you are starting or somewhere in the middle of your PhD. Finish or drop out, those are your options. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your plan will not work.

Originally Posted by DrDori

Are you saying that I should leave the PhD program BEFORE I apply to medical school? that is too risky. Is it really such a negative thing to be enrolled in a PhD in engineering while I apply to med school? My plan is basically to start the PhD till I get accepted in the MD program. Right now the MD is kind of a bird in the bush !

Medical schools will not be interested in taking you given that you will be in the middle of a PhD program. There is no such thing as "transferring" from a PhD to an MD program, and although I imagine transferring to an MD-PhD program is within the realm of possibility I have never heard of it and I would imagine it is extremely rare. I have heard of people transferring between 2 MD/PhD programs and even that is definitely very rare.

Originally Posted by DrDori

I am in a slightly similar situation. I graduated in 2007, I am 27 and have very little professional experience since then (marriage etc). I got accepted into a good PhD program and recently took the decision to pursue an MD. I will matriculate then transfer when I get accepted into the MD program or MD/PhD. This will give me a chance to move to the states and do some clinical volunteering and complete some biology and chemistry courses and complete my application in the states. The difference is I am not completely determined to do the PhD and I am considering doing just the MD. I also have a good undergrad GPA, 3.89.

I just realized that you are an international student coming straight from abroad...that will make getting accepted (and paying for) medical school much, much more difficult. In addition, medical schools will be looking for prerequisites taken in the United States so your undergraduate GPA will not mean so much...your plan as it stands now cannot work.

Some thoughts to add to previous posters:

Some schools putting expiration dates and policies on prereqs: If older than 5 years, you need to show continued academic achievement in biological sciences is how one school put it. Additionally some schools are now listing 10 years as max time on prereqs. If you think about the implications of the last one, if you graduated 7 or 8 years ago, your freshman bio and chem could be out of date.

Additionally if the OP is an international student with an international degree (and I wasnt sure which, if not both situations apply), there are another whole of set of issues

1) international student: very few non-permanent residents/citizens get accepted. Some schools simply do not consider them. Most actively dissuade them. of the few that accept them, some require prepayment for all 4 years (in the form of $300,000 line of credit for Hopkins),

2) International degree. Most medical schools require a minimum of 90 undergraduate credits taken at a US or Canadian school. Not transferred credits, not evaluated transcript but actually taken. And not PhD graduate level, but undergraduate. There are some schools that only require 30 credits.

Originally Posted by gonnif

Some thoughts to add to previous posters:

Some schools putting expiration dates and policies on prereqs: If older than 5 years, you need to show continued academic achievement in biological sciences is how one school put it. Additionally some schools are now listing 10 years as max time on prereqs. If you think about the implications of the last one, if you graduated 7 or 8 years ago, your freshman bio and chem could be out of date.

Great points, and thanks for clearing up the pre-req expiration discussion.

Originally Posted by Prettypuff1

Hello
So I have a long way to go before i apply but I wanted to get some opinions. I am going to be starting a Ph.D. in the fall in the sciences,particularly pharmacology. I am an older student 28 and I am interested in applying to Medical School after I finish my Ph.D. I am interested in becoming a physician scientist and focusing my interests in oncology.I would prefer to have both degrees to fully see patients while participating in clinical trials. While i have read that my Ph.D. wont give me a leg up, I am interested to know the application process as far as pre-reqs/ Undergraduate GPA since this is the most important part. Since my pre/reqs sciences are past the 5 year deadline, would they consider just the classes i had to retake because they were out dated or my science career as a whole? Thankfullly the phd allow me to be published and i am able to participate in clinical trials. I am open to applying to DO schools as well. But just would like opinions.

I am pretty ok with the lack of life. By the time i am looking to apply and matriculate, my son will be grown and i'll be on my own...
Thanks

I totally agree with what most people are telling you. If clinical research is your end goal, getting a PhD is not necessary. Where a PhD would be useful, but by no means a necessity, is if you were also interested in doing translational or straight basic science research. Even so, there are tons of excellent researchers in the translational and basic sciences who "only" have a MD. Committing to a PhD program while KNOWING you have little to no interest in the basic sciences is not a good move.

First, while the average time it takes to complete a PhD in pharmacology is five years, keep in mind that this is an AVERAGE. It's also the average that everyone quotes. It's mostly bull. I saw a large number of people in my department taking more than five years to finish. With a masters degree, it should be a little easier for you to get in and out quickly, but it's not a guarantee by any means. Projects get delayed or are a bust. Recruitment goes poorly. You pick a crappy mentor. You pick a bad committee. Mentors relocate. These are factors that are beyond your control.

Also, you can really hurt yourself matriculating into a PhD program and then not having a stellar grad school career. You'll need to publish above and beyond. Grants, fellowships, and awards are incredibly good and expected. Basically, it cannot look like you sucked at research so now you're switching paths. You'll also need a solid reason for why you're jumping from degree to degree (BS --> MS --> PhD --> MD). You run the risk of coming off as a disingenuous degree collector. If you commit to the PhD program, make sure you're committed to finishing. One of the dudes who entered with me bailed after a couple of years. Even with a good MCAT, he couldn't manage to get in anywhere other than the islands. This wasn't because he was socially awkward or not intelligent. No one wants to poach students, and good luck getting a good LOR from a pissed off PI who has now "lost" however many years of stipend support. N=1... but still.

I'm not trying to be overly harsh or anything, so I hope you don't take anything I said personally. I'm just trying to give you an accurate idea of the challenges you could face in going from PhD to MD. I'll be matriculating this fall to medical school after completing a PhD and postdoc. It was a good path for me because I lacked the self-confidence to attempt medicine right out of undergraduate. I got hooked on medicine after a couple of years into my program while spending some time in the clinics recruiting participants for my study. It happens. Had I known for sure at the beginning that I wanted to go to medical school, I'm not sure the PhD-->MD path would have been the best choice. You're talking a minimum of a 14-15 year commitment when you include grad school, med school, residency, and oncology fellowship. There are better means to your end goal.

PM me if you have any specific questions.

^^^
I'm also enrolling MD in the fall after having taken a similar path with a basic science PhD, and I agree with everything that's been said here and above. It's insanity to knowingly enroll in a PhD program while intending to go MD afterward. The PhD->MD switch/progression is tricky to justify, and it's not clear you're at any real advantage as an applicant with a PhD even if you're MCAT/undergrad grades were good.

I'd also add that the gap in NIH funding rates for MDs and MD/PhDs is increasingly narrowing as more MD programs are offering research opportunities for their students. Mount Sinai School of Medicine, for example, offers its medical students the opportunity to do a Master's in Clinical Research that can completed by taking an extra year. Many other schools offer a funded "year out" where you can do full-time research, and if you get outside funding like Howard Hughes it's all the better.

Hell
Op here. not an international student just from the Midwest.

I think my message is getting a little lost. I am definitely finishing my Phd
It's very important to me as I am 100% passionate about it and what I am learning. One posted put it beat with how he's ended up phd-> md that he " lacked confidence in undergrad" and I've definitely suffered from that. To me it's not getting a phd specifically for med school entrance but a question of what if i decide that coming to the other side of
Clinical research. My internship involves working with doctors and patient pools so I'm just curious to hear stories of how. My undergrad classes are already 7 years past for general bio. I thought of that because I have some friends applying to pharmacy school who have to retake.

you are wasting 6 years of your life if you get a PhD. ANY MD with an interest in research can launch a successful research career (especially clinical research, if that is your ultimate goal). You do not need a PhD to do this.

Apply to med school, do research as an M1. If you realize that research is your true passion, switch to a Phd. However, it sounds like a phd is absolutely unnecessary to your goals in life

Originally Posted by Prettypuff1

Hello
So I have a long way to go before i apply but I wanted to get some opinions. I am going to be starting a Ph.D. in the fall in the sciences,particularly pharmacology. I am an older student 28 and I am interested in applying to Medical School after I finish my Ph.D. I am interested in becoming a physician scientist and focusing my interests in oncology.I would prefer to have both degrees to fully see patients while participating in clinical trials. While i have read that my Ph.D. wont give me a leg up, I am interested to know the application process as far as pre-reqs/ Undergraduate GPA since this is the most important part. Since my pre/reqs sciences are past the 5 year deadline, would they consider just the classes i had to retake because they were out dated or my science career as a whole? Thankfullly the phd allow me to be published and i am able to participate in clinical trials. I am open to applying to DO schools as well. But just would like opinions.

I am pretty ok with the lack of life. By the time i am looking to apply and matriculate, my son will be grown and i'll be on my own...
Thanks

Well, the whole "leg-up" equation, this has a lot of noise and is hard to determine, but most likely "no" its not gonna give you a leg up, maybe a hand. First of all, non-trad age, your profile will be looked at. Also, non-trad goals, i.e. it will be pretty obvious you are looking for a more un unconventional med path, i.e. that of being a physician-scientist. You didn't give any details on GPA. I met with an MD/PhD admissions committee member, and he told me if you have an opportunity to finish the PhD, and the lab work is going well, stay and finish as fast as possible. There are many models to MD/PhD career, but becoming a faculty is a long road. Nobody can tell you if you will get into MD or DO, this will depend on your MCAT. Most likely a PhD holder is going to score high on the MCAT. If you score high, I bet you will be getting interviews in MD, if low, I bet more DO. Advanced standing? Yes this is a possibility, and most likely about 1 year. I have seen a lot of Miami senior PhD to MD students get advanced standing. It depends on what courses you have had. Also, the caribbean, which I don't recommend, like AUC may give about 1 year advanced standing credit for holder of the PhD degree. Everything is on a case by case basis though, and their are no guarantees. Generally, I think holders of the PhD have a better chance for advanced standing than podiatric or especially chiropractic doctorate holders. Retaken courses you were mentioning, not really a big deal, as for DO, yes they will give you the retakes, as for MD, no, but you have so many courses they will most likely be asking you about your recent work. Keep in mind being a physician-scientist is no cake walk, and you most likely will not have time to be a surgeon or something like that. Yes that can be done, but when you are cutting all day, this isn't feasible to be much more than a lab manager. Lots of folks will tell you caribbean is bad, but if you are doing internal med or family practice, which will give you more time to do research, and complement the work well, its not too unrealistic. The reality is that you very well may get into a US MD or DO, but this depends on MCAT score most importantly. Just think out of the 1000s of applicants, only a very tiny percentage are going to hold the PhD degree, you will be looked at. If wanting to be a physician-scientist, this road is very long, try to set goals and cut down your time at becoming a faculty, you are already 28. Although not old, I am not sure if any post-docs would be involved, or what the process is to join the faculty. I advise you to research on LinkedIn and Google to find those that obtained PhD to MD, and see if there medical education was 3 years, as that would be a definite advanced standing school.

Don't take my advice, take a lot of advice, but another thing I wanted to mention is that having an MS degree in a hard science, as well as having a DO allows you the possibility of doing research. A true physician-scientist at my university who is extremely picky about people and their credentials had considered a researcher and faculty in high regard, then mentioned later he actually is a DO with an MS, and noted the intensity of the MS program a tid bit. Granted an MS isn't of any weight compared to a PhD, but you can make of it what you put it. I have seen some more professional engineers that do MS thesis that looks like pure genius and is as big or bigger, and maybe 10 times more detailed and of technical merit than many PhD dissertations. Only you can decide what is the right route for you. Calculate potential times for finishing the program. In my opinion once you have the medical degree, which is a lot of work in the course sense and clinical sense, you have more of a degree of latitude. Some earn a PhD during residency, yes its true, I have been told by admissions members, and they joint the physician-scientist faculty groups. While you are young, I would think MD or DO first, and if you happen to get into a dual program, you are good to go.

Originally Posted by Prettypuff1

Hell
Op here. not an international student just from the Midwest.

I think my message is getting a little lost. I am definitely finishing my Phd
It's very important to me as I am 100% passionate about it and what I am learning. One posted put it beat with how he's ended up phd-> md that he " lacked confidence in undergrad" and I've definitely suffered from that. To me it's not getting a phd specifically for med school entrance but a question of what if i decide that coming to the other side of
Clinical research. My internship involves working with doctors and patient pools so I'm just curious to hear stories of how. My undergrad classes are already 7 years past for general bio. I thought of that because I have some friends applying to pharmacy school who have to retake.

I don't understand why you came here for advice just to ignore all the advice offered. Your sensible options are a) skip the PhD and do MD only (if you want to practice any clinical medicine), b) skip the MD and do PhD only (if you're only interested in research), or c) do an MD/PhD (if you must do both and want to do bench-to-bedside research). There is no situation in which it is logical to do PhD -> MD when you know before starting the PhD program that you even THINK you might want an MD.

OP if you are set on MD and PhD why aren't you doing an MD/PhD program? Fuuuundiiiiing. But if you really want to do the research first then do the clinical training for personal reasons, ok. You have the arguments of others about whether it's a good idea/worth it/whatever and you seem pretty sure you're gonna do it.

So logistically, yes it's doable. Might post or ask that this is moved to the nontrad forum? More people over there will have done this. I am in a PhD program now and applied to enter med school this fall. The consensus is as you said, it's not necessarily a leg up. You'll certainly have lots of research compared to many applicants, though, and you'll technically be an atypical applicant just because most applicants aren't old phdholders like us. From what I gathered, undergrad GPA will still matter most by far because they need to be able to compare you to trad applicants who took the same required science courses. Your grad GPA should be good too, though as I understand it, grad GPA can sink you but it can't save you from bad undergrad work.

How out of date your courses can be varies by school. Check the websites of the schools you're gonna apply to when you are at that point in your grad school career. Anecdotally I haven't been told that I had a problem so far, and I applied to 20 schools - my oldest prereq course was fall of 2001. I think if you are showing continuing work in the sciences and doing very well, and do well on the MCAT, then schools get that you are still up to snuff in terms of studying and learning tough science concepts.

Originally Posted by TheMightySmiter

I don't understand why you came here for advice just to ignore all the advice offered. Your sensible options are a) skip the PhD and do MD only (if you want to practice any clinical medicine), b) skip the MD and do PhD only (if you're only interested in research), or c) do an MD/PhD (if you must do both and want to do bench-to-bedside research). There is no situation in which it is logical to do PhD -> MD when you know before starting the PhD program that you even THINK you might want an MD.

Wow that was pretty harsh. Mainly I wasnt really expecting th " drop everything now" approach. As I stated before this is the beginning of the process. I'm at the very naive what if stage. All the other more serious questions such as " do I want to take on thus much debt" ; " can I manage life as mid 30s and broke" " how can I link this with the research I do in my grad program if so". THe debt load is a big factor for why med school wasn't at the top for me. This is just preliminary, somewhere in the serious thought I may hit a no that's why I am continuing on.

Originally Posted by Prettypuff1

Wow that was pretty harsh. Mainly I wasnt really expecting th " drop everything now" approach. As I stated before this is the beginning of the process. I'm at the very naive what if stage. All the other more serious questions such as " do I want to take on thus much debt" ; " can I manage life as mid 30s and broke" " how can I link this with the research I do in my grad program if so". THe debt load is a big factor for why med school wasn't at the top for me. This is just preliminary, somewhere in the serious thought I may hit a no that's why I am continuing on.

Getting into an MD program at your stage in the game is going to take a hell of a lot more resolve than that. And given your undergrad GPA, all this talk about MD/PhD programs is probably moot, anyway.

Given everything you've said, I don't understand why you don't consider switching into the PharmD program at your school. You likely have the credentials, since you're about to start a pharmacology PhD program. You could focus on clinical pharmacy, work in a hospital and see patients, albeit not independently, and I'm sure you could follow up with patients in your clinical trial. Seriously, look into it.

For instance, MD Anderson actually has a PGY-2 residency in oncology pharmacy and they guarantee a spot for their PGY-1 clinical pharmacy residents if they want it.

http://www.mdanderson.org/education-...ogy/index.html

Last point: PharmD $$$ > PhD $$