Nd > md ?

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Most of you are unaware that Naturpathic Doctors (ND) are better than Medical Doctors (MD/DO) in almost every way. I am here to enlighten you.

Here is some information directly from their AAMC equivalent.

http://www.aanmc.org/education/compa...-curricula.php


Some gems

But when comparing the training and philosophies of NDs and MDs, it’s important to remember that there is no right or wrong


During the first two years, ND students’ credit loads are almost identical to those of MD students. In nearly every biomedical science, ND students are required to complete as many credits as, if not more than, MD students. Specifics vary by school, but a 2010 course comparison of the University of Washington’s (UW) MD program and Bastyr University’s ND program shows that during the first two years, UW MD students complete a total of 150 credits and Bastyr ND students complete 151.5 credits, most of them in comparable biomedical and diagnostic science courses.

lolol


However, it is during these later years that MDs’ educations begin to differ noticeably from those of NDs. MDs complete clerkships, which are courses in various medical specialties, and although MD students see plenty of patients during these clerkships, their roles are primarily observational: they are not primarily responsible for patient care.

Third- and fourth-year ND students have increasing opportunities for hands-on clinical training and practice, often at their schools’ teaching clinics and off-site clinics, which offer diverse patient populations. This period of clinical training goes well beyond the observation and is absolutely essential to NDs’ educations – so much so that clinical training is now being introduced during the first and second years of education at several AANMC-member schools. As a result, naturopathic medical students graduate prepared to begin practice and to diagnose and treat patients, whereas MD students are required to complete residencies after graduation in order to gain clinical experience.

damn MD's, get on track


When examining a naturopathic medical curriculum, especially in comparison with that of a conventional medical school, remember this important differentiating factor: all future NDs are in training to become primary care physicians. In other words, a naturopathic medicine program is by definition a specialization in primary care – a field of medicine in extreme shortage in the US today.

oh yea that primary care shortage

Why waste time grubbing for that obsolete and extremely limited MD? Go apply for your ND today at <https://portal.ndcas.org/>! It's just like AMCAS but probably better.

Who whouldn't want to attend one of the currently accredited ND schools?
Pick from one of these fine institutions:

Bastyr University
Boucher Institute of Naturopathic Medicine
Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine
National College of Natural Medicine
National University of Health Sciences
Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine
University of Bridgeport

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

Most of you are unaware that Naturpathic Doctors (ND) are better than Medical Doctors (MD/DO) in almost every way. I am here to enlighten you.

Here is some information directly from their AAMC equivalent.

http://www.aanmc.org/education/compa...-curricula.php


Some gems

"But when comparing the training and philosophies of NDs and MDs, it’s important to remember that there is no right or wrong"


"During the first two years, ND students’ credit loads are almost identical to those of MD students. In nearly every biomedical science, ND students are required to complete as many credits as, if not more than, MD students. Specifics vary by school, but a 2010 course comparison of the University of Washington’s (UW) MD program and Bastyr University’s ND program shows that during the first two years, UW MD students complete a total of 150 credits and Bastyr ND students complete 151.5 credits, most of them in comparable biomedical and diagnostic science courses."

lolol


"However, it is during these later years that MDs’ educations begin to differ noticeably from those of NDs. MDs complete clerkships, which are courses in various medical specialties, and although MD students see plenty of patients during these clerkships, their roles are primarily observational: they are not primarily responsible for patient care.
Third- and fourth-year ND students have increasing opportunities for hands-on clinical training and practice, often at their schools’ teaching clinics and off-site clinics, which offer diverse patient populations. This period of clinical training goes well beyond the observation and is absolutely essential to NDs’ educations – so much so that clinical training is now being introduced during the first and second years of education at several AANMC-member schools. As a result, naturopathic medical students graduate prepared to begin practice and to diagnose and treat patients, whereas MD students are required to complete residencies after graduation in order to gain clinical experience."

damn MD's, get on track


"When examining a naturopathic medical curriculum, especially in comparison with that of a conventional medical school, remember this important differentiating factor: all future NDs are in training to become primary care physicians. In other words, a naturopathic medicine program is by definition a specialization in primary care – a field of medicine in extreme shortage in the US today. "

oh yea that primary care shortage

Why waste time grubbing for that obsolete and extremely limited MD? Go apply for your ND today at <https://portal.ndcas.org/>! It's just like AMCAS but probably better.

Who whouldn't want to attend one of the currently accredited ND schools?
Pick from one of these fine institutions:

Bastyr University
Boucher Institute of Naturopathic Medicine
Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine
National College of Natural Medicine
National University of Health Sciences
Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine
University of Bridgeport

1. They're license in sixteen states and D.C. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??????

2. To be fair, here is the curriculum:

Biochemistry
Human Physiology
Histology
Anatomy
Macro- and Microbiology
Immunology
Human Pathology
Neuroscience
Pharmacology

Clinical Nutrition
Botanical Medicine
Homeopathy
Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
Lifestyle Counseling
Massage
Physical Medicine
Hydrotherapy

3. You know that feeling when your little sister is playing piano in church, and your stomach is clenched and you're nervous for her? That's how I feel when I'm around people who weren't smart enough to get into a real medical school (here's hoping I get in...). Anyway you're stuck between feeling sorry for them and wanting them to get the hell away from an innocent patient.

.

If they only learned chiropractic..... then D.O. would be obsolete too

That's how I feel when I'm around people who weren't smart enough to get into a real medical school (here's hoping I get in...).

You can go right ahead and **** yourself, because I guarantee you that compared to me, you're not good enough to get into med school.

Originally Posted by Marge

1. They're license in sixteen states and D.C. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??????

2. To be fair, here is the curriculum:

Biochemistry
Human Physiology
Histology
Anatomy
Macro- and Microbiology
Immunology
Human Pathology
Neuroscience
Pharmacology

Clinical Nutrition
Botanical Medicine
Homeopathy
Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
Lifestyle Counseling
Massage
Physical Medicine
Hydrotherapy

3. You know that feeling when your little sister is playing piano in church, and your stomach is clenched and you're nervous for her? That's how I feel when I'm around people who weren't smart enough to get into a real medical school (here's hoping I get in...). Anyway you're stuck between feeling sorry for them and wanting them to get the hell away from an innocent patient.

Hydrotheraphy sounds easy. All you need is a hose or bucket?

My reactions while reading this:

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

Why waste time grubbing for that obsolete and extremely limited MD?

MDs are obsolete and extremely limited?? Really?!?

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

Most of you are unaware that Naturpathic Doctors (ND) are better than Medical Doctors (MD/DO) in almost every way. I am here to enlighten you.

Here is some information directly from their AAMC equivalent. <snip>

Why go through all that trouble to get an ND when you can get an ONLINE degree in Alternative Medicine and go right to work?


http://evergladesuniversityonline.co...ative+Medicine

Originally Posted by beargunkarate

MDs are obsolete and extremely limited?? Really?!?

Well, yea, it says it right at the top of their website. I don't know if I would be content with just a limited MD degree. I mean, I want to have a comprehensive and well-rounded medical eduacation, at least, I think I do, and it seems like ND is the way to go. I mean look, N is basically M with the fluff taken out.

Accordingly, ND school curricula include certain areas of study not covered in conventional med school, such as clinical nutrition, homeopathic medicine and psychological counseling. However, future NDs also receive training in many of the same biomedical and diagnostic sciences as their MD counterparts, and the result is a comprehensive and well-rounded medical education.

http://www.aanmc.org/education/compa...-curricula.php

Anybody is better than MD/DO...Why dont we let bush drivers who listen to Rush Limbauch every day dignose/treat patients..They can find the necessary informations in the internet to perform such task. We dont need MD/DO sucking money out healthcare making it unaffordable.

Originally Posted by kexy

My reactions while reading this:

In that order?

Originally Posted by NeuroLAX

In that order?

Yes. The 151.5 credits thing was hilarious. The suggestion that ND's are better-trained because they DON'T complete residencies was head bangingly stupid. What makes me sad though, is that there are people who read this and totally buy it... so I guess I should add .

When you get cancer go to a Naturpathic doctor and tell me how it works out for you.

You guys are aware they op is just trolling, right? From the looks of it he already succeeded :-D

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

Originally Posted by kexy

Yes. The 151.5 credits thing was hilarious. The suggestion that ND's are better-trained because they DON'T complete residencies was head bangingly stupid. What makes me sad though, is that there are people who read this and totally buy it... so I guess I should add .

Agreed. The chart was rather whimsical... nice try AANMC.

Originally Posted by el poblano

You guys are aware they op is just trolling, right? From the looks of it he already succeeded :-D

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

The funny thing is, I don't think he was really trolling as he made it very clear (e.g. "lolol") in his post he was joking about it.

Now a legit troll would quote just this:

Originally Posted by kexy

What makes me sad though, is that there are people who read this and totally buy it

out of context , and then make a remark along the lines of "just like people do with the whole 'holisitc' BS from osteopathic schools" in an attempt to turn this into another one of those threads.



...well, there it is
...
j/k, seriously, don't

For some reason, I expected "ND" to stand for "Nurse Doctitioner"

Originally Posted by JESSFALLING

If they only learned chiropractic..... then D.O. would be obsolete too

They do. They have something called "naturopathic manipulative medicine."

Nice, Bastyr also offers a certificate in holistic landscape design.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

Nice, Bastyr also offers a certificate in holistic landscape design.

Is landscape design often not holistic? Do normal landscape designers treat the front lawn and the entrance-way as completely separate entities that don't have to match at all?

Has anyone noticed that "holistic" has been so commonly used as a buzzword for BS that it kinda makes the word seem like a bad thing even though 'holisitic' should at worst be neutral?

Originally Posted by Wolverine Fan

You'll make a good doctor one day.

Doctors have to be smart. Hard work and a passion for helping others are not enough.

Originally Posted by pfaction

You can go right ahead and **** yourself, because I guarantee you that compared to me, you're not good enough to get into med school.

Ad hominem much? Did I brag about how many medical schools accepted me? Take one of these

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

Nice, Bastyr also offers a certificate in holistic landscape design.

"Permaculture." I had never heard of that. It will only cost you $15,000 in tuition/fess for one year.

a sarcastic troll? how interesting...

I actually lived next to the one in Phoenix. That picture does not do it credit: it's a renovated middle school from the appearance out front. I always regret never going to tour it before I moved east.

Lol no

And here we were thinking MDs are experts on pathophysiology... WRONG!

Edit: Sorry the picture is so big.

Straight from the AANP (American Association of Naturopathic Physicians):


Naturopathic physicians combine the wisdom of nature with the rigors of modern science.

It is the naturopathic physician’s role to identify and remove barriers to good health by helping to create a healing internal and external environment.

NDs treat all medical conditions

A licensed naturopathic physician (ND) attends a four-year, graduate-level naturopathic medical school and is educated in all of the same basic sciences as an MD, but also studies holistic and nontoxic approaches to therapy with a strong emphasis on disease prevention and optimizing wellness. In addition to a standard medical curriculum, the naturopathic physician is required to complete four years of training in clinical nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathic medicine, botanical medicine, psychology, and counseling


So there we have it folks. In conclusion, ND > MD.

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

Straight from the AANP (American Association of Naturopathic Physicians):

Naturopathic physicians combine the wisdom of nature with the rigors of modern science.

It is the naturopathic physician’s role to identify and remove barriers to good health by helping to create a healing internal and external environment.

NDs treat all medical conditions

A licensed naturopathic physician (ND) attends a four-year, graduate-level naturopathic medical school and is educated in all of the same basic sciences as an MD, but also studies holistic and nontoxic approaches to therapy with a strong emphasis on disease prevention and optimizing wellness. In addition to a standard medical curriculum, the naturopathic physician is required to complete four years of training in clinical nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathic medicine, botanical medicine, psychology, and counseling

So there we have it folks. In conclusion, ND > MD.

Oh Jesus Christ. Medical school AND four years of additional training in botanical medicine etc.? Wow...

Originally Posted by Marge

And here we were thinking MDs are experts on pathophysiology... WRONG!

Edit: Sorry the picture is so big.

So your basis is that since you take more credits in some courses, your curriculum is better and nd>md/do? Riiiiiiight

Originally Posted by tenndoc

So your basis is that since you take more credits in some courses, your curriculum is better and nd>md/do? Riiiiiiight

U mirin my curriculum brah?

Just kidding. I'm pre-(real) medicine. That's the chart the quacks use. I provided it for informative purposes only.

Originally Posted by Marge

U mirin my curriculum brah?

Just kidding. I'm pre-(real) medicine. That's the chart the quacks use. I provided it for informative purposes only.

Sry. On my phone. Misread who said what

NDs view the patient as a complex, interrelated system (a whole person), not as a clogged artery or a tumor.

http://naturopathic.org/content.asp?contentid=59


Have fun trotting of to your MD/DO schools where you learn to treat the symptoms, not the patient.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...editation.html

Interesting read. (they eventually regained accreditation).

I've been perusing some naturopathic medical school youtube videos, southwest has a bushel of goodies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qZ3u...884&playnext=2

Things I've learned so far from watching them:
1) Type II diabetes is mostly caused by insufficient intake of the appropriate nutrients
2) Type II diabetes at any stage, including insulin dependence, has a good chance of being cured(there is a hint of truth in this one, but the claim is too broad)
3) Insulin is the first line drug (and maybe only??) for type II diabetes.
4)Hydrotherapy works by causing blood vessels to pump blood, allowing superior blood flow and removal of toxins from unhealthy tissues.
5) Chronic diseases are best treated by a combination of ND, chinese medicine doctor, homeopathic physician, chiropractor and I wasn't sure but they may have have also said MD/DO.

I'm going to watch all of them to subsidize my regular diet of quackcast.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

I've been perusing some naturopathic medical school youtube videos, southwest has a bushel of goodies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qZ3u...884&playnext=2

Things I've learned so far from watching them:
1) Type II diabetes is mostly caused by insufficient intake of the appropriate nutrients
2) Type II diabetes at any stage, including insulin dependence, has a good chance of being cured(there is a hint of truth in this one, but the claim is too broad)
3) Insulin is the first line drug (and maybe only??) for type II diabetes.
4)Hydrotherapy works by causing blood vessels to pump blood, allowing superior blood flow and removal of toxins from unhealthy tissues.
5) Chronic diseases are best treated by a combination of ND, chinese medicine doctor, homeopathic physician, chiropractor and I wasn't sure but they may have have also said MD/DO.

I'm going to watch all of them to subsidize my regular diet of quackcast.

You must have misheard that part.

We all know the reason why people go to MD/DO school.

Originally Posted by Marge

U mirin my curriculum brah?

Just kidding. I'm pre-(real) medicine. That's the chart the quacks use. I provided it for informative purposes only.

I see you Zyzz!

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

Most of you are unaware that Naturpathic Doctors (ND) are better than Medical Doctors (MD/DO) in almost every way. I am here to enlighten you.

Here is some information directly from their AAMC equivalent.

http://www.aanmc.org/education/compa...-curricula.php


Some gems

But when comparing the training and philosophies of NDs and MDs, it’s important to remember that there is no right or wrong


During the first two years, ND students’ credit loads are almost identical to those of MD students. In nearly every biomedical science, ND students are required to complete as many credits as, if not more than, MD students. Specifics vary by school, but a 2010 course comparison of the University of Washington’s (UW) MD program and Bastyr University’s ND program shows that during the first two years, UW MD students complete a total of 150 credits and Bastyr ND students complete 151.5 credits, most of them in comparable biomedical and diagnostic science courses.

lolol


However, it is during these later years that MDs’ educations begin to differ noticeably from those of NDs. MDs complete clerkships, which are courses in various medical specialties, and although MD students see plenty of patients during these clerkships, their roles are primarily observational: they are not primarily responsible for patient care.

Third- and fourth-year ND students have increasing opportunities for hands-on clinical training and practice, often at their schools’ teaching clinics and off-site clinics, which offer diverse patient populations. This period of clinical training goes well beyond the observation and is absolutely essential to NDs’ educations – so much so that clinical training is now being introduced during the first and second years of education at several AANMC-member schools. As a result, naturopathic medical students graduate prepared to begin practice and to diagnose and treat patients, whereas MD students are required to complete residencies after graduation in order to gain clinical experience.

damn MD's, get on track


When examining a naturopathic medical curriculum, especially in comparison with that of a conventional medical school, remember this important differentiating factor: all future NDs are in training to become primary care physicians. In other words, a naturopathic medicine program is by definition a specialization in primary care – a field of medicine in extreme shortage in the US today.

oh yea that primary care shortage

Why waste time grubbing for that obsolete and extremely limited MD? Go apply for your ND today at <https://portal.ndcas.org/>! It's just like AMCAS but probably better.

Who whouldn't want to attend one of the currently accredited ND schools?
Pick from one of these fine institutions:

Bastyr University
Boucher Institute of Naturopathic Medicine
Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine
National College of Natural Medicine
National University of Health Sciences
Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine
University of Bridgeport

The op's being sarcastic people, read and enjoy

Do I sound sarcastic to you?



NDs and MDs are alike in many ways. Both attend a four-year medical school after completing pre-med classes and a bachelor’s degree. In Washington State, both NDs and MDs are required to pass rigorous professional board exams and to maintain a medical license that demands accountability and ongoing medical education. Both are recognized as Primary Care Physicians (PCP). In clinical practice, both NDs and MDs evaluate a patient using diagnostic interviews, physical exams and lab tests. Both then treat disease, decrease risk factors and prolong lives. The primary difference lies in the focus of their training and their treatment approaches.


A Licensed Naturopathic Physician (ND) attends a four-year graduate level naturopathic medical school after completing a standard pre-med program and receiving a Bachelor of Science degree. The curriculum includes the same basic sciences found in a conventional medical school*, yet with additional studies in holistic and nontoxic natural therapies.

* Graduates of accredited naturopathic medical colleges are required to have more hours of study in basic sciences and clinical sciences than graduates of Yale or Stanford medical schools. They also receive more formal training in therapeutic nutrition than MDs, osteopathic physicians and registered dietitians. And unlike MDs, Naturopaths draw from a wide variety of health disciplines including: European spa therapy, traditional Chinese medicine/acupuncture, and Ayurvedic medicine to name a few.

http://www.theholistichealthclinic.com/Understand.html




Yeah, take that, Yale and Stanford medical schools. Looks to me like medical schools (MD, not ND) are still in the dark ages.

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

Naturopaths draw from a wide variety of health disciplines including: European spa therapy

Seriously, why don't MD schools require core clerkships in European spa therapy?

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

Do I sound sarcastic to you?



NDs and MDs are alike in many ways. Both attend a four-year medical school after completing pre-med classes and a bachelor’s degree. In Washington State, both NDs and MDs are required to pass rigorous professional board exams and to maintain a medical license that demands accountability and ongoing medical education. Both are recognized as Primary Care Physicians (PCP). In clinical practice, both NDs and MDs evaluate a patient using diagnostic interviews, physical exams and lab tests. Both then treat disease, decrease risk factors and prolong lives. The primary difference lies in the focus of their training and their treatment approaches.


A Licensed Naturopathic Physician (ND) attends a four-year graduate level naturopathic medical school after completing a standard pre-med program and receiving a Bachelor of Science degree. The curriculum includes the same basic sciences found in a conventional medical school*, yet with additional studies in holistic and nontoxic natural therapies.

* Graduates of accredited naturopathic medical colleges are required to have more hours of study in basic sciences and clinical sciences than graduates of Yale or Stanford medical schools. They also receive more formal training in therapeutic nutrition than MDs, osteopathic physicians and registered dietitians. And unlike MDs, Naturopaths draw from a wide variety of health disciplines including: European spa therapy, traditional Chinese medicine/acupuncture, and Ayurvedic medicine to name a few.

http://www.theholistichealthclinic.com/Understand.html




Yeah, take that, Yale and Stanford medical schools. Looks to me like medical schools (MD, not ND) are still in the dark ages.

What I don't get, is after all those biochemistry, anatomy, physiology, pathology, histology classes etc, the people taking them can then sit there and listen to how diet can cure cancer AND BELIEVE IT.

There is such a huge cognitive disconnect, I must be missing something.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

I've been perusing some naturopathic medical school youtube videos, southwest has a bushel of goodies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qZ3u...884&playnext=2

Things I've learned so far from watching them:
1) Type II diabetes is mostly caused by insufficient intake of the appropriate nutrients
2) Type II diabetes at any stage, including insulin dependence, has a good chance of being cured(there is a hint of truth in this one, but the claim is too broad)
3) Insulin is the first line drug (and maybe only??) for type II diabetes.
4)Hydrotherapy works by causing blood vessels to pump blood, allowing superior blood flow and removal of toxins from unhealthy tissues.
5) Chronic diseases are best treated by a combination of ND, chinese medicine doctor, homeopathic physician, chiropractor and I wasn't sure but they may have have also said MD/DO.

I'm going to watch all of them to subsidize my regular diet of quackcast.

isnt that what doctors used to do in the middle ages with leaches or just a sharp knife? you know just letting the patients bleed hoping to remove toxins in the process? lol

Originally Posted by compshateme85

What I don't get, is after all those biochemistry, anatomy, physiology, pathology, histology classes etc, the people taking them can then sit there and listen to how diet can cure cancer AND BELIEVE IT.

There is such a huge cognitive disconnect, I must be missing something.

I personally would love to go sit in on some classes. Some of the schools let you be a "student for a day", so I may sign up next time I'm in phoenix.

Originally Posted by gatorade848

isnt that what doctors used to do in the middle ages with leaches or just a sharp knife? you know just letting the patients bleed hoping to remove toxins in the process? lol

Sorta, it was based on the equally flawed idea that bleeding put the body back into balance due to the excess sanguine temperment/blood.

Originally Posted by tenndoc

So your basis is that since you take more credits in some courses, your curriculum is better and nd>md/do? Riiiiiiight

Didn't you know? Quality<Quantity

Originally Posted by mabindaby

Didn't you know? Quality<Quantity

nice profile pic lol

Can't believe people pay that much money in tuition...Bastyr specifcally

The owner of a local health food store that I shop at has an ND degree. I live in a college town, and she struck up a conversation asking what I wanted to do after I graduated. I said "medical school" to which she replied, "I went to medical school. It was really hard". She then told me she had her ND. I had no idea what she was talking about.

This is probably exactly what happened to DO's 80 years ago haha.

From the Washington Association of Naturopathic Physicians* (I was interested/terrified of their scope of practice)

"NDs use a variety of therapies to promote health and treat disease including: dietetics, therapeutic nutrition, botanical medicine, physical medicine, naturopathic manipulative therapy..."

Oh lawd.

Originally Posted by mabindaby

Didn't you know? Quality<Quantity

+1 for monkey king

Originally Posted by zma21

The owner of a local health food store that I shop at has an ND degree. I live in a college town, and she struck up a conversation asking what I wanted to do after I graduated. I said "medical school" to which she replied, "I went to medical school. It was really hard". She then told me she had her ND. I had no idea what she was talking about.

This is probably exactly what happened to DO's 80 years ago haha. .

Get off your high horse. ND's are simply the next evolution of the MD as far as I can tell. It is natural that MD's and pre-med students would feel threatened.

Can MD's do this?




Didn't think so

(also from the same website)

Wellness– Wellness follows the establishment and maintenance of optimum health and balance. Wellness is a state of being healthy, characterized by positive emotion, thought and action. Wellness is inherent in everyone, no matter what dis-ease(s) is/are being experienced. If wellness is really recognized and experienced by an individual, it will more quickly heal a given dis-ease than direct treatment of the dis-ease alone. (This principle was adopted by Bastyr University and added to the six principles.)

http://www.bastyrcenter.org/content/view/113/


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