Medicine Vs. Dentistry, a comparison of $/HR

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As an ode to my being done with the DAT today, I have decided to share the results of my personal research about the income, in dollars per hour, in the medical and dental specialties. I know I'm not alone in wanting to know which specialties not only pay the best ($), but also have the best lifestyle (Hrs). In accordance to this metric, I have decided to compile a breakdown of the various medical and dental specialties that is fairly recent and thus, relevant to current students. I have tried to make it as objective and evidence-based as possible. All of the dentistry numbers were taken from the reliable ADA surveys of the private practice of dentistry, 2009 edition. The medical specialties were harder to find. I cannot guarantee their accuracy as the numbers were compiled from various sources and, many, made up by me. Nevertheless, I tried to be on the high end in my estimations for income, as well as vacation weeks. My estimations were largely based on the posts of the practicing physicians quoting their incomes on here. I would have liked to more accurate numbers, but I couldn't get my hands on the Physician Compensation Report. I'm open to suggestions and criticisms of my breakdown in any way so as to make it more accurate. I hope it doesn't offend anybody, it is just something I did for fun and out of curiosity. Without further ado: $/hr breakdown

that was very interesting. I somehow feel that the orthodontist make more per hour than. I think its more like 190 per hr

would be interesting to see if/how malpractice premiums even that out, especially seeing as how you left off ob/gyn.

of course that data is going to be regional and highly variable, even more so than per hour billing.

Good job by the OP. The results are highly variable when you take into account years spent in residency, student loan payments, location, etc etc. This list almost makes me want to be an oral surgeon, almost.

Lets get some post-recession numbers.

Like I said, I tried to compile a list with the most accurate data I had at my disposal. Since all the dentistry numbers came from the ADA surveys, I am confident in their accuracy. I wish I could say the same for the medicine numbers. If I ever get my hands on that Physician Compensation Survey I'll definitely update the sheet.

You forgot the fact that if you go to medical school you have to practice medicine. That sucks.
I just did a 4 month surgery rotation and have come to the conclusion that all surgeons hate their jobs, their patients and their life. They live at the hospital and are always pissed off at something. It makes me really happy that I am in the field that I am.
By the way, I think the only reason their suicide rate is not higher than ours is that they just don't have time to kill themselves. Work, eat and sleep, that is all they do.

Can you put spinal surgeon also on the list? I heard that they gross about 1M per year...

Originally Posted by duknowme

You forgot the fact that if you go to medical school you have to practice medicine. That sucks.
I just did a 4 month surgery rotation and have come to the conclusion that all surgeons hate their jobs, their patients and their life. They live at the hospital and are always pissed off at something. It makes me really happy that I am in the field that I am.
By the way, I think the only reason their suicide rate is not higher than ours is that they just don't have time to kill themselves. Work, eat and sleep, that is all they do.

I have always wondered why dentists' suicide rates are supposed to be so much higher than physicians - and every other job. The monotony perhaps?

Originally Posted by DMDWANNABEE

I have always wondered why dentists' suicide rates are supposed to be so much higher than physicians - and every other job. The monotony perhaps?

The suicide rate of dentists as being the highest is a myth. There are at least a handful of studies that have tried to debunk this.

http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/1/25.full

Originally Posted by Bereno

The suicide rate of dentists as being the highest is a myth. There are at least a handful of studies that have tried to debunk this.

http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/1/25.full

For sure, I remember reading a psychology journal with the conclusion that a person's job/career is not a significant indicator of suicidal tendencies.

Originally Posted by duknowme

You forgot the fact that if you go to medical school you have to practice medicine. That sucks.
I just did a 4 month surgery rotation and have come to the conclusion that all surgeons hate their jobs, their patients and their life. They live at the hospital and are always pissed off at something. It makes me really happy that I am in the field that I am.
By the way, I think the only reason their suicide rate is not higher than ours is that they just don't have time to kill themselves. Work, eat and sleep, that is all they do.

I don't think it's the profession itself but the people it brings in. I think socioeconomically speaking you will always have problems in the top 10% and the bottom 10%

There isn't much of a correlation between money and happiness if you make a certain amount in certain countries.

Originally Posted by TheToothsayer

I don't think it's the profession itself but the people it brings in. I think socioeconomically speaking you will always have problems in the top 10% and the bottom 10%

I disagree slightly. I think people in the top 10% and bottom 10% have actually the least amount of problems.

Here's why I think so: The top 10% may not have to work because they can pay people to invest for them, become associates at their practices, be their employees, do their accounting for them, serve their food and everything in between.

The bottom 10% has it even better. They do not have to worry about losing their assets because they don't have any. They can just sit on government welfare programs and even if they work, no matter what they do there is a mandatory minimum wage. Not to mention they pay the least taxes out of anybody.

So I think that the middle class or middle 80% has it the worst because they are just below having their money work for them instead of working for their money and just above not having to pay high taxes and receiving free government assistance.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

I disagree slightly. I think people in the top 10% and bottom 10% have actually the least amount of problems.

Here's why I think so: The top 10% may not have to work because they can pay people to invest for them, become associates at their practices, be their employees, do their accounting for them, serve their food and everything in between.

The bottom 10% has it even better. They do not have to worry about losing their assets because they don't have any. They can just sit on government welfare programs and even if they work, no matter what they do there is a mandatory minimum wage. Not to mention they pay the least taxes out of anybody.

So I think that the middle class or middle 80% has it the worst because they are just below having their money work for them instead of working for their money and just above not having to pay high taxes and receiving free government assistance.

Fair enough, but I was speaking in terms of personality. When considering suicide rates and divorce rates you have to consider socioeconomic factors and predispositions. For someone to use the statistic that doctors have highest suicide rates(which btw is around 60% as opposed to the 50% national average) you have to look for reason. I suggested personality. One of many options of course. Maybe health professionals are just too smart and mouthy for their own good!

In response to your argument. I think a good synopsis is this: What happens when you have everything but feel like you have nothing? What happens when you have nothing but feel like it's everything [you can manage]

The suicide rates are coupled with manual labor positions and high earning professionals. It's just something to consider.

Still, I don't think comparing salaries between docs and dents is such a good idea. Lifestyle is a more holistic and realistic indicator of success and happiness.

Ah America. Life, liberty and the pursuit of money.

Originally Posted by TheToothsayer

Ah America. Life, liberty and the pursuit of money.

Haha well said, and this is certainly true of a majority of people in America. When materialism takes us to the point of plastic surgery and dermatology being the most competitive medical specialties, you know something has got to be wrong lol.

I remember my backpacking days when after coming back from a 3 week long trip just a hamburger was the best thing in the world. Even hearing music playing from the radio was ecstatic. As humans we get used to everything around us and just want more and MORE and MORE!!! Sometimes it is better just to relax, not go all type A/neurotic and gun for #1 in everything in life. If some professionals do not achieve their perceived measure of success this drives some them to suicide. At least that is how I see it.

this is quite interesting, thanks for the work. I realised though that you left out prosthodontists? I think they would make quite a bit too.

Originally Posted by mydodger

Shnurek I know we disagree about a lot of things on the OMD board but when it comes to this we most definitely agree. Something is wacky with our values here in the USA.

Its because women are like 90% of plastic surgery patients. And they pay straight cash (either their own or their sugar daddy's) to look more beautiful/younger. Its dumb but frankly American citizens are so polarized in their distribution of wealth that you have 45 million people on food stamps and then you have people like this on the other end that guide some of the best doctors into making people artificially beautiful. Same thing with cosmetics in dentistry. If people have extra money laying around they wouldn't mind looking nicer.

I believe that dentists don't report all of their income--as a decent amount of their pay is cash, they would have incentive not to report full payment for tax benefits. I personally know a few dentists that do this and claim many more do as well. I would expect that the average salary of a dentist in private practice that owns some percentage of their practice could realistically be twenty-percent more than often reported (this is why dentists can earn from $300,000 to $1,000,000 a year net income while websites claim such salaries as $150,000 a year average for a dentist that owns their own office).

That being said, the richest doctors I've known are specialist medical doctors. An orthopedic surgeon or neurosurgeon can easily net over half a million a year in their first year of practice. Dermatologists and cardiologists can post similar figures within a couple of years. Specialists that go on to net over a million a year are more common in the medical field than the dental field, in my opinion.

Here's some better medical numbers http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=817247

I believe I saw that report and incorporated some of the numbers from there.

Originally Posted by Bereno

The suicide rate of dentists as being the highest is a myth. There are at least a handful of studies that have tried to debunk this.

http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/1/25.full

Cool. I guess I don't have to shoot myself then

What a relief...

Originally Posted by Frank22

I believe that dentists don't report all of their income--as a decent amount of their pay is cash, they would have incentive not to report full payment for tax benefits. I personally know a few dentists that do this and claim many more do as well. I would expect that the average salary of a dentist in private practice that owns some percentage of their practice could realistically be twenty-percent more than often reported (this is why dentists can earn from $300,000 to $1,000,000 a year net income while websites claim such salaries as $150,000 a year average for a dentist that owns their own office).

That being said, the richest doctors I've known are specialist medical doctors. An orthopedic surgeon or neurosurgeon can easily net over half a million a year in their first year of practice. Dermatologists and cardiologists can post similar figures within a couple of years. Specialists that go on to net over a million a year are more common in the medical field than the dental field, in my opinion.

FYI, if you're playing with your books to try and hide some cash income, it generally isn't a question of if you'll be caught by the IRS some day, but when And when they get you, chances are that what you'll have to pay will be far greater than the extra that you took home by keeping that cah off the books vs. declaring it and paying the taxes on it in the 1s place.

Most dentists, especially those that own their own practice do have stated "salalries" that are lower than their total compensation for the following basic reason. If you own your own practice, chances are that you've got some type of corporation status (usually a LLC or an S-Corp). That "corporation" is your practice and you work for your corporation (and usally you're the president of the corporation too). The corporation pays you your a salary that is "usual and customary" for its size and the area. You're taxed at the regular income tax rate for that income. Then, any income, above and beyond what you make in wages, you take home as dividend income, which you're taxed at the dividend income rate which is currently 15% (this is why there's all the hub bub politically now about Warren Buffet and his tax rates vs his secretary and Mitt Romney's effective tax rate, etc). Any accountant will tell you though that if you try and compensate yourself at say 1% regular wages and 99% dividend wages, the IRS will come after you in a BIG way Most practice owners will have roughly 50% regular wages income and 50% dividend income or there abouts. And also remember that "dividend income" isn't just straight cash, but also it can be things like health insurance premiums, professional society premiums, a "company" car, "entertainment expenses", etc, etc, etc. Right?? Wrong?? That's open for debate, but it's the way that the tax laws are worded currently, and it's perfectly legal

Originally Posted by DrJeff

The corporation pays you your a salary that is "usual and customary" for its size and the area. You're taxed at the regular income tax rate for that income. Then, any income, above and beyond what you make in wages, you take home as dividend income, which you're taxed at the dividend income rate which is currently 15% (this is why there's all the hub bub politically now about Warren Buffet and his tax rates vs his secretary and Mitt Romney's effective tax rate, etc).

My accountant told me that any distributions income (non-salaried) that I pay myself is still taxed as ordinary income for my "closely knit" S-corp. With my distributions income, however, I do avoid the payroll taxes (medi-care and social security). There are tax-free and reduced-taxed ways to pay yourself through retirement accounts such as sep-IRAs and pensions.

To add one to the calculation:

ICU physician:

MGMA states they make ~300k. Work schedule: 7 on 7 off @ 10 hrs per shift. That is an average of 35hrs per week over two weeks.

or 35hrs for 50 weeks (assuming two weeks of vacation) = 1750hrs /yr

$300,000/1750hrs = $171.42/hr.

When you factor in that most places supply them with 401k matching, malpractice, health and dental ins for their families, and more vacation than two weeks it's not a bad deal.

Originally Posted by yappy

To add one to the calculation:

ICU physician:

MGMA states they make ~300k. Work schedule: 7 on 7 off @ 10 hrs per shift. That is an average of 35hrs per week over two weeks.

or 35hrs for 50 weeks (assuming two weeks of vacation) = 1750hrs /yr

$300,000/1750hrs = $171.42/hr.

When you factor in that most places supply them with 401k matching, malpractice, health and dental ins for their families, and more vacation than two weeks it's not a bad deal.

Most shift work as you describe above does not include any vacation because of the every other week off set-up. Also, I believe they are often 12 hour shifts, but vary by position. The OP probably should have used the MGMA physician compensation report as this is generally considered one of the "gold standards" for compensation reporting. Also, I'm not positive, but I believe that the salary's reported in MGMA are for total compensation (i.e. including insurances, 401K matching, etc.).

I don't think doctors work 35-hours a week: many work for well over 50 for pennies on the dollar. I certainly hope that dentistry doesn't go the same way as medicine and law did, although in the case of the former medical doctors are partially to blame.

TImes are changing, Frank. ICU, Internists, and ER physicians do shift work that averages out to ~35 hrs per week.

Originally Posted by yappy

To add one to the calculation:

ICU physician:

MGMA states they make ~300k. Work schedule: 7 on 7 off @ 10 hrs per shift. That is an average of 35hrs per week over two weeks.

or 35hrs for 50 weeks (assuming two weeks of vacation) = 1750hrs /yr

$300,000/1750hrs = $171.42/hr.

When you factor in that most places supply them with 401k matching, malpractice, health and dental ins for their families, and more vacation than two weeks it's not a bad deal.

Great! thanks! I'll add it to the list. That isn't bad at all. Does shift work get vacation weeks?

JPevner - you may be interested in the MGMA salary survey for physicians. From my understanding it's used to negotiate compensation for physicians joining medical groups or employment to hospitals.

Originally Posted by JPevzner

Great! thanks! I'll add it to the list. That isn't bad at all. Does shift work get vacation weeks?

2010 MGMA physician survey:

Originally Posted by DrJeff

FYI, if you're playing with your books to try and hide some cash income, it generally isn't a question of if you'll be caught by the IRS some day, but when And when they get you, chances are that what you'll have to pay will be far greater than the extra that you took home by keeping that cah off the books vs. declaring it and paying the taxes on it in the 1s place.

Most dentists, especially those that own their own practice do have stated "salalries" that are lower than their total compensation for the following basic reason. If you own your own practice, chances are that you've got some type of corporation status (usually a LLC or an S-Corp). That "corporation" is your practice and you work for your corporation (and usally you're the president of the corporation too). The corporation pays you your a salary that is "usual and customary" for its size and the area. You're taxed at the regular income tax rate for that income. Then, any income, above and beyond what you make in wages, you take home as dividend income, which you're taxed at the dividend income rate which is currently 15% (this is why there's all the hub bub politically now about Warren Buffet and his tax rates vs his secretary and Mitt Romney's effective tax rate, etc). Any accountant will tell you though that if you try and compensate yourself at say 1% regular wages and 99% dividend wages, the IRS will come after you in a BIG way Most practice owners will have roughly 50% regular wages income and 50% dividend income or there abouts. And also remember that "dividend income" isn't just straight cash, but also it can be things like health insurance premiums, professional society premiums, a "company" car, "entertainment expenses", etc, etc, etc. Right?? Wrong?? That's open for debate, but it's the way that the tax laws are worded currently, and it's perfectly legal

So if a dentist says they're making $200,000 a year, that's regular wage income, they're probably making another $200,000 in dividend income?

Originally Posted by yappy

JPevner - you may be interested in the MGMA salary survey for physicians. From my understanding it's used to negotiate compensation for physicians joining medical groups or employment to hospitals.






2010 MGMA physician survey:

Those numbers are nice, but I would need a report, from the same year, about the average hours worked if this is to have any significance in my comparison.

This has been looked at before - there are some excellent posts, particularly by the delightful gary_ruska, in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=664024

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Its because women are like 90% of plastic surgery patients. And they pay straight cash (either their own or their sugar daddy's) to look more beautiful/younger. Its dumb but frankly American citizens are so polarized in their distribution of wealth that you have 45 million people on food stamps and then you have people like this on the other end that guide some of the best doctors into making people artificially beautiful. Same thing with cosmetics in dentistry. If people have extra money laying around they wouldn't mind looking nicer.

I do c but not everyone has common sense! There must and always be poor! Whether u throw money at them or not! They will always be we must redo the system to help the average person