What is the average salary of an internship?

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So, while doing my clinical psychology research, i'm looking to figure out the average earning figures in the industry. It seems like approx $20,000-25,000 is the average during grad school , but what about the internship at the end of the program? any other info on first-time jobs would also be appreciated.

Originally Posted by imapretender

So, while doing my clinical psychology research, i'm looking to figure out the average earning figures in the industry. It seems like approx $20,000-25,000 is the average during grad school , but what about the internship at the end of the program? any other info on first-time jobs would also be appreciated.

That seems high for during grad school. I'd imagine it would be more like $15-20K, and keep in mind that not all programs are fully funded where you are paid a stipend and/or given a tuition waiver.

When I was applying for internship I saw salaries that ranged from $18K to almost $30K. The VAs or other government internships are probably about the highest those salaries will get.

Originally Posted by Pragma

That seems high for during grad school. I'd imagine it would be more like $15-20K, and keep in mind that not all programs are fully funded where you are paid a stipend and/or given a tuition waiver.

When I was applying for internship I saw salaries that ranged from $18K to almost $30K. The VAs or other government internships are probably about the highest those salaries will get.

Agreed. I'd be surprised if, nationwide, the average yearly grad school stipend were higher than around $18k (without including tuition remission). And for internship, also agreed--the average, at least of the 20 or so sites I looked through closely enough to notice, was low-20's. I believe the Federal BOP sites offer some of the best pay.

I have to say, these numbers are quite discouraging to me. That is living in poverty conditions for 5+ years, I don't think I have the ability to do that, nor could I afford 5 years of graduate level tuition if it is not fully funded (and this would be even worse if I was accepted to an out-of-state school, which is very possible given that I come from a small state).

any tips you could give to someone interested in adolescent counseling/therapy who doesn't have a desire to go bankrupt + live in poverty for 5 years?

master's in social work or counseling. 2 years.

Originally Posted by imapretender

I have to say, these numbers are quite discouraging to me. That is living in poverty conditions for 5+ years, I don't think I have the ability to do that, nor could I afford 5 years of graduate level tuition if it is not fully funded (and this would be even worse if I was accepted to an out-of-state school, which is very possible given that I come from a small state).

any tips you could give to someone interested in adolescent counseling/therapy who doesn't have a desire to go bankrupt + live in poverty for 5 years?

Originally Posted by FreudianSlipper

master's in social work or counseling. 2 years.

Getting a master's degree in mental health will mean at least 4 years of living on a low income--2 years, minimum, in school (where you'll be lucky if they give you any money), plus 2 years, minimum, working a low-salaried job before you get your license. Although I would not say it is (or has to be) poverty. Either way, we all suck it up. At least you'll be in good company .

Originally Posted by imapretender

I have to say, these numbers are quite discouraging to me. That is living in poverty conditions for 5+ years, I don't think I have the ability to do that, nor could I afford 5 years of graduate level tuition if it is not fully funded (and this would be even worse if I was accepted to an out-of-state school, which is very possible given that I come from a small state).

any tips you could give to someone interested in adolescent counseling/therapy who doesn't have a desire to go bankrupt + live in poverty for 5 years?

Some people supplement the income with loans, but you pay them back of course and that takes away from your income after graduating/licensing. If you can manage to live frugally during school, you'd be happier in the long run. People get roommates and don't go out and spend money often. Or, like me, you marry someone who makes decent money before you start school

Originally Posted by imapretender

So, while doing my clinical psychology research, i'm looking to figure out the average earning figures in the industry. It seems like approx $20,000-25,000 is the average during grad school , but what about the internship at the end of the program? any other info on first-time jobs would also be appreciated.

It varies by program and location, as it would for grad school or internship. You can see the stipends for internships by going to the APPIC website and searching for the internships you would be interested in.

Originally Posted by imapretender

I have to say, these numbers are quite discouraging to me. That is living in poverty conditions for 5+ years, I don't think I have the ability to do that, nor could I afford 5 years of graduate level tuition if it is not fully funded (and this would be even worse if I was accepted to an out-of-state school, which is very possible given that I come from a small state).

any tips you could give to someone interested in adolescent counseling/therapy who doesn't have a desire to go bankrupt + live in poverty for 5 years?

You are thinking ahead...and pragmatically. Thats a good thing.

You dont live in poverty though if you supplement with loans though. My internship stipend is only 25k, but my wife has a normal grown-up job that pays the bills and buys us fancy bed sheets and stuff,

Originally Posted by erg923

You are thinking ahead...and pragmatically. Thats a good thing.

You dont live in poverty though if you supplement with loans though. My internship stipend is only 25k, but my wife has a normal grown-up job that pays the bills and buys us fancy bed sheets and stuff,

Really wish I had one of those when I was in grad school! I made due with a little help from my uncle Sam. Of course, now he wants his money back plus interest. He is no longer my favorite uncle.

Did I mention we have lots and lots of pillows too? Her salary came in handy for that important life necessity too. I think they are like a status symbol or something. The more frou-frou decorative pillows on the master bed and guest bed, the higher up in society you are.

I never understood the point of decorative pillows ever. It seemed silly to have pillows just for decoration. Then, I hurt my lower back a few months ago at my gf's place. Turns out those things are great for helping elevate your legs!

Yeah the decorative pillows are so uncomfortable, and you have to keep removing them and putting them back. So anti-utilitarian.

Originally Posted by FreudianSlipper

master's in social work or counseling. 2 years.

How does this path work exactly? So, you do the 2 year degree and then what are the following procedures to become fully licensed and qualified to work as a school psychologist?

Originally Posted by imapretender

How does this path work exactly? So, you do the 2 year degree and then what are the following procedures to become fully licensed and qualified to work as a school psychologist?

Actually to be a school psychologist it entails a MS/MA degree with an additional 25-30 hours for the EdS or equivalent degree. Normally this is three or more years and you have to complete a 1800 hour school psychology internship. The LPC degree is approximately 2 years of coursework but you have to complete a two-year internship that has 3000 supervised hours. The national exam for LPC is more difficult than in years past and you have to pass it before beginning your internship hours. Some individuals do not pass it the first time and this delays their progress. One caveat to consider is that many LPC internships are unpaid and you have to pay a supervisor $50 to $100 dollars per hour during the 3000 hours so despite what may seem to be a quicker way the LPC may incur additional expenses.

Normally school psychology internships are paid as the same rate as licensed-certified school psychologists in their first year of work---$30,000 to 40,000 or more.

The doctoral degree in clinical psychology may range from 5-8 years depending upon the program and you have to do a one-year predoctoral and a one-year postdoctoral internship before becoming fully licensed. It could take ten years or more before you become fully licensed as some tend to delay becoming licensed due to life events, having children etc... It is becoming more common for doctoral level psychologist to be in their late 20's early 30's before gaining licensure.

Relatively speaking there are pluses and minus to either of these paths. There are many more job opportunities for master's prepared mental health workers than there are for doctoral prepared mental health workers. This has been a phenomenon that is happening in many fields in that in some respects the doctoral level person is viewed as being over trained and too expensive for the agency to justify hiring and retaining a doctoral level person. In the mental health field it seems that most agencies have one doctoral level person and the rest are master's prepared staff. However, in clinical psychology to engage in independent practice you must have the doctoral degree, so there are many psychologists engaging in independent practice rather than working for private or state agencies.

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

Agreed. I'd be surprised if, nationwide, the average yearly grad school stipend were higher than around $18k (without including tuition remission). And for internship, also agreed--the average, at least of the 20 or so sites I looked through closely enough to notice, was low-20's. I believe the Federal BOP sites offer some of the best pay.

Military offers the best internship pay. Most first year interns in the military are looking at $60k or better. My pay during my military internship is substantially higher than even that (I have 14 years of total military service that affects my pay significantly).

Originally Posted by imapretender

I have to say, these numbers are quite discouraging to me. That is living in poverty conditions for 5+ years, I don't think I have the ability to do that, nor could I afford 5 years of graduate level tuition if it is not fully funded (and this would be even worse if I was accepted to an out-of-state school, which is very possible given that I come from a small state).

any tips you could give to someone interested in adolescent counseling/therapy who doesn't have a desire to go bankrupt + live in poverty for 5 years?

You can always consider the military. Question is, would you be willing to do that in order to have a good salary?

Originally Posted by 4410

Actually to be a school psychologist it entails a MS/MA degree with an additional 25-30 hours for the EdS or equivalent degree. Normally this is three or more years and you have to complete a 1800 hour school psychology internship. The LPC degree is approximately 2 years of coursework but you have to complete a two-year internship that has 3000 supervised hours. The national exam for LPC is more difficult than in years past and you have to pass it before beginning your internship hours. Some individuals do not pass it the first time and this delays their progress. One caveat to consider is that many LPC internships are unpaid and you have to pay a supervisor $50 to $100 dollars per hour during the 3000 hours so despite what may seem to be a quicker way the LPC may incur additional expenses.

As usual, this is misleading. Calling the post-masters/pre-full-licensure supervised work an "internship" is not appropriate. It is not an internship, it is work experience. Residency is a much better word than internship, as residency is what it is called, in mental health, when a person takes a position after they earn their degree, not before (i.e., internship).

And, while "many LPC" post-masters/pre-full-licensure (aka, entry-level licensed) positions (not called internships) may very well be unpaid (but we don't know this for sure, because there is no data given here), especially in areas that are saturated with therapists, such as California, there are also "many LPC" post-masters/entry-level-licensed positions that do pay and/or offer free supervision.

Originally Posted by Psychadelic2012

As usual, this is misleading. Calling the post-masters/pre-full-licensure supervised work an "internship" is not appropriate. It is not an internship, it is work experience. Residency is a much better word than internship, as residency is what it is called, in mental health, when a person takes a position after they earn their degree, not before (i.e., internship).

And, while "many LPC" post-masters/pre-full-licensure (aka, entry-level licensed) positions (not called internships) may very well be unpaid (but we don't know this for sure, because there is no data given here), especially in areas that are saturated with therapists, such as California, there are also "many LPC" post-masters/entry-level-licensed positions that do pay and/or offer free supervision.

Well it could be different now than when I got my EdS in School psychology in 1989. At that time it was a 65 hour EdS degree that included the MS degree and thesis. I did a year long internship as a school psychologist intern in a school district in Kansas. It is similar to a student teaching year for teachers before becoming fully certified. In Texas you can't do your internship year until you pass the NCSP exam and have been designated as a LSSP Intern by the Texas Board of Examiners of Psychologists (TSBEP). It took me three years and then I did the internship the fourth year. Normally a residency is a title used in the medical setting. I believe they do clerkships, internships, and residencies.

I am also a LPC-S or Licensed Professional Counselor - Supervisor since 1986. I got this after completing my MS degree in Clinical Psychology. My MS degree in Clinical Psychology at that time was a 3-4 year progam as I had to do a year of practicum and a one-year internship. When I finished up this degree I had already worked for two years as it took me some time to finish up my thesis. The LPC license at that time was 2000 hours of surpervised practice with a psychologists or a social worker. I was paid but back then my salary was under $20,000 dollars a year. Currently some LPC's work and receive their supervision at work but some have to receive their supervision outside of work and they have to pay this out of pocket.

It may vary based on State regulations, but in Texas you have to do a one-year internship to become fully licensed as an LSSP and a two-year internship to become fully licensed as an LPC. You have to work for three-years after your internship in school psychology to be able to supervise LSSP Interns. Similarly for LPC you need to work two-three years before being eligible to become a supervisor. In other States they may call them residencies but in the States that I am familiar with they are called internships.

School Psychologist have to pass the NCSP exam and LPC have to pass the NCC exam before being eligible to begin internships. For some reason, psychologist do not need to pass the EPPP before doing their internship.

In Texas you have to do a year of internship as a LSSP-Intern. You may then be licensed as a LSSP-trainee. I believe the LSSP-Intern is one year and the LSSP-trainee is either one or two more years before you are fully licensed as a LSSP;

Licensed Specialist in School Psychology.
(a) Application Requirements. A completed application for licensure as a specialist in school psychology includes the following, in addition to the requirements set forth in Board rule §463.5 of this title (relating to Application File Requirements):
(1) Documentation of an appropriate graduate degree; and
(2) Documentation from the National School Psychologists' Certification Board sent directly to the Board indicating the applicant holds current valid certification as a National Certified School Psychologist (NCSP); or
(3) Documentation of the following sent directly to the Board:
(A) transcripts that verify that the applicant has met the requirements set forth in subsection (b) of this section;
(B) proof of the internship required by subsection (c) of this section if the applicant did not graduate from either a training program approved by the National Association of School Psychologists (NASP) or a training program in school psychology accredited by the American Psychological Association (APA);
(C) the score that the applicant received on the School Psychology Examination sent directly from the Education Testing Service; and
(D) three acceptable reference letters from three different individuals who are licensed as psychologists or specialists in school psychology or are credentialed in school psychology in their respective jurisdictions.

In Texas, they call the LPC two-years of post graduate experience an internship as well:

Apply for a New License - Requirements

• A master's or doctoral degree in counseling or a counseling-related field from an accredited college or university
• A planned graduate program in counseling or a counseling-related field of at least 48 graduate semester hours
• NOTE: Board rules specifically define "counseling -related field": §681.2. Definitions (9) Counseling-related field - A mental health discipline utilizing human development, psychotherapeutic, and mental health principles including, but not limited to, psychology, psychiatry, social work, marriage and family therapy, and guidance and counseling. Non-counseling fields include, but are not limited to dance therapy, sociology, education, administration, and theology.
• Applicants must obtain academic course work in each of the following areas: normal human growth and development; abnormal human behavior; appraisal or assessment techniques; counseling theories; counseling methods or techniques (individual and group); research; lifestyle and career development; social, cultural and family issues; and professional orientation
• As part of the graduate program, a supervised practicum experience that is primarily counseling in nature. The practicum should be at least 300 clock-hours with at least 100 clock-hours of direct client contact. Academic credit for the practicum must appear on the applicant's transcript.
• After completion of the graduate degree and before application, an applicant must take and pass the National Counselor Exam and the Texas Jurisprudence Exam. After receiving a temporary LPC license from the board, the applicant may begin the supervised post-graduate counseling experience (internship). 3000 clock-hours with at least 1,500 being direct client contact of internship under the supervision of a board-approved supervisor is required. The 3000 clock-hours may not be completed in a time period of less than 18 month.
• If reapplying for a temporary license, the applicant must submit any supervised experience gained during their previous temporary license.

Basically, the academic requirements for a EdS degree in School Psychology is 60 hours and for the MS/MA in community counseling or LPC is 48 hours. I know some EdS program are 80 hour programs and some LPC programs are 60 hours. There are some EdD counselor education programs that are only another 30 hours above the MS/MA degree or 80 hours when combined with the 48 hours and 30 hours, and they do not require a dissertation or an internship. Most PhD/PsyD clinical psychology programs are 90-120 credit hours. I currently have 112 credit hours in my program and I will have six more hours from my internship year, so I will have close to 120 credit hours when I am finished.

I have both the LSSP and the LPC licenses in Texas and I am also nationally certified as a NCSP and NCC. I will begin my APA accredited internship in August for my PsyD degree. I am in my sixth year of study as I had to take a year of leave due to medical concerns. I will finish up my PsyD degree in seven years and I will be eligible for provisional licensure after my internship. I will have to work one more year before being eligible for full licensure as a psychologist.

Having experienced all three of these paths for mental health licensure, they all have their pluses and minus. I am not sure if the competency level between the MS degree LPC and the PhD/PsyD Clinical Psychologist is tangentially different or measurable in terms of significant outcomes for clients or programs. Seems that psychologists believe that the doctoral degree makes them have a higher degree of competence but I know many LPCs that have no desire to gain a doctoral degree and they seem very competent. I'm even aware of professionals who asks to be called by their first name and do not use the Dr. title, although they have completed the doctoral degree. I have been satisfied with my experiences as a LSSP and LPC but I have always had the goal of obtaining the highest degree in my field, the doctoral degree. The trail that each of us takes to find our path, whatever that may be is highly personal. For me, I enjoy being involved in lifelong learning to the point where I did not transfer any of my MS degree courses into my doctoral program as psychology has changed tenfold in the last 23-years when I finished up my EdS degree. I know some of my friends who completed their doctoral degree back in the 1980's and they have not learned anything more from when they finished up their doctoral degree. Some of them are still Rogerian Person Centered and others are still Freudian classical psychoanalytical therapist and have no desire to read or learn about CBT, Solution-Focused, or ACT therapy approaches.

Originally Posted by 4410

I am not sure if the competency level between the MS degree LPC and the PhD/PsyD Clinical Psychologist is tangentially different or measurable in terms of significant outcomes for clients or programs.

Not this crap again.....

Take an MS and have them teach a multi-variate stats course, lead a research team, supervise doctoral-candidates, serve on a dissertation committee, provide EBT interventions and be able to explain the underlying research behind them, administer a psychological or neuropsychological assessment, etc.

According to various state state legislation...there are large differences.

Originally Posted by 4410

My MS degree in Clinical Psychology at that time was a 3-4 year progam as I had to do a year of practicum and a one-year internship. When I finished up this degree I had already worked for two years as it took me some time to finish up my thesis. The LPC license at that time was 2000 hours of surpervised practice with a psychologists or a social worker. I was paid but back then my salary was under $20,000 dollars a year. Currently some LPC's work and receive their supervision at work but some have to receive their supervision outside of work and they have to pay this out of pocket.

Thank you. Yes, it varies by state, and Texas is only one state that is very different than the state I currently live in, for example. LPC, in some states, is the entry-level (immediately post-masters) license, and people work for money with that license, in order to accrue hours for an LCPC. The word "intern" would be grossly inappropriate in my state, for example. There are many variances, so someone cannot just say it is one particular way. If you say "many" it is unclear.

Originally Posted by 4410

Having experienced all three of these paths for mental health licensure, they all have their pluses and minus. I am not sure if the competency level between the MS degree LPC and the PhD/PsyD Clinical Psychologist is tangentially different or measurable in terms of significant outcomes for clients or programs. Seems that psychologists believe that the doctoral degree makes them have a higher degree of competence but I know many LPCs that have no desire to gain a doctoral degree and they seem very competent. I'm even aware of professionals who asks to be called by their first name and do not use the Dr. title, although they have completed the doctoral degree. I have been satisfied with my experiences as a LSSP and LPC but I have always had the goal of obtaining the highest degree in my field, the doctoral degree. The trail that each of us takes to find our path, whatever that may be is highly personal. For me, I enjoy being involved in lifelong learning to the point where I did not transfer any of my MS degree courses into my doctoral program as psychology has changed tenfold in the last 23-years when I finished up my EdS degree. I know some of my friends who completed their doctoral degree back in the 1980's and they have not learned anything more from when they finished up their doctoral degree. Some of them are still Rogerian Person Centered and others are still Freudian classical psychoanalytical therapist and have no desire to read or learn about CBT, Solution-Focused, or ACT therapy approaches.

That was a doozy.

1. I know a ton of competent LPC's. That doesn't mean that they are capable of doctoral- level work. The LPC's I know are very aware of that and would never claim it any other way.

2. The depth and breadth of training makes a huge difference. How is that not intuitive/ common sense/obvious?

3. Just because Dr.'s don't plan on being referred to as "Dr" doesn't mean anything. I plan on only using it in certain contexts, as I work from a Recovery-oriented EST perspective and appreciate my clients/patients feeling more human around me.

4. Is the goal to get the training even when you don't think it makes a real difference in your treatment provision? I thought I was competent just as an LPC and I can't believe how differently I practice now- and I'm not even done my degree yet!!

5. There is space in the field for Rogerian and Freudian forms of therapy, especially if the client has real informed consent and has been made aware of the research and options they have. Its the ethical practice that's important. I personally don't practice that way because I believe in research and working primarily from what the research works more often for more people (intensity of effect, frequency, duration of changes, etc.). I get that not all people want that, it just needs to not be misleading/predatory.

6. I don't understand people who would not want to be exposed to new research though. Learning doesn't have to change one's orientation. That's sad. Plus, how do they get all their CEUs in if they won't take EST courses?

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

Not this crap again.....

Take an MS and have them teach a multi-variate stats course, lead a research team, supervise doctoral-candidates, serve on a dissertation committee, provide EBT interventions and be able to explain the underlying research behind them, administer a psychological or neuropsychological assessment, etc.

According to various state state legislation...there are large differences.

+1

I recommend that people examine 4410 posts extremely critically. They are frequently rife with inaccuracies.

I am not involved with counseling or anything of that nature. However, I do know that LPC requirements vary by state. I have an ex who just completed her masters this spring - she is not taking the counseling exam at this time, as the state she is in does not require completion of the counseling licensure exam until the point she applies for LPC (e.g. completion of her 3000 supervised hours). In addition, I never heard the 3000 hours referred to as "internship", either. The individual is graduated from school, so I am not sure how it could be called an internship. However, I suppose that can vary by state - unlike 4410, I will not make statements of certainty when I do not hold mastery on the topic. I know several individuals completing their 3000 hour licensure requirement - none are paid well. However, everyone I know earns a salary (which seems to range from $10 an hour to somewhere in the mid-30,000s, depending on the position and agency).

As for school psychology, the majority of programs are 2 years. These programs generally require 65-70 credits. Among these credits are included credits for a year of practicum and a year of internship. The majority of school psych programs require full-time attendance, and most students complete coursework in 2 years (by also completing numerous courses in the summer sessions). School psychology internships do not pay exactly the same as a state boarded school psychologist in most cases - although the salary can be close depending on the state and district. However, popular cities, such as Chicago and Seattle, are notorious for paying interns salaries of $15,000. Also, some very popular cities do not even pay interns in school psych at all (e.g. Boston and are two I have heard that do not offer stipends - although apparently small stipends are sometimes available for school psych interns if they are bilingual)

Originally Posted by 4410

Actually to be a school psychologist it entails a MS/MA degree with an additional 25-30 hours for the EdS or equivalent degree. Normally this is three or more years and you have to complete a 1800 hour school psychology internship. The LPC degree is approximately 2 years of coursework but you have to complete a two-year internship that has 3000 supervised hours. The national exam for LPC is more difficult than in years past and you have to pass it before beginning your internship hours. Some individuals do not pass it the first time and this delays their progress. One caveat to consider is that many LPC internships are unpaid and you have to pay a supervisor $50 to $100 dollars per hour during the 3000 hours so despite what may seem to be a quicker way the LPC may incur additional expenses.

Normally school psychology internships are paid as the same rate as licensed-certified school psychologists in their first year of work---$30,000 to 40,000 or more.

The doctoral degree in clinical psychology may range from 5-8 years depending upon the program and you have to do a one-year predoctoral and a one-year postdoctoral internship before becoming fully licensed. It could take ten years or more before you become fully licensed as some tend to delay becoming licensed due to life events, having children etc... It is becoming more common for doctoral level psychologist to be in their late 20's early 30's before gaining licensure.

Relatively speaking there are pluses and minus to either of these paths. There are many more job opportunities for master's prepared mental health workers than there are for doctoral prepared mental health workers. This has been a phenomenon that is happening in many fields in that in some respects the doctoral level person is viewed as being over trained and too expensive for the agency to justify hiring and retaining a doctoral level person. In the mental health field it seems that most agencies have one doctoral level person and the rest are master's prepared staff. However, in clinical psychology to engage in independent practice you must have the doctoral degree, so there are many psychologists engaging in independent practice rather than working for private or state agencies.

I believe some of the confusion lies with there being doctoral level trained LPC and School Psychologists as well as master's prepared clinical psychology programs and doctoral level clinical psychology programs. Some of the confusion entails what is required to engage in independent practice or unsupervised clinical practice. Normally master's level clinical psychology students are able to gain licensure with the requirement of supervision, but this does not mean they are not able to apply for LPC or School Psychology licensure with their master's level clinical psychology degree. There is a great deal of overlap of MS in community counseling degree, EdS in school psychology degree, and PhD/PsyD in clinical psychology degree, PhD/PsyD in counseling psychology, PhD/PsyD/EdD degree in school psychology, and PhD/PsyD/EdD degree in counseling.

There are different boards that regulate these degrees from LPC Board, Department of Education Board, Board of Psychologists, and even in some states they are all regulated under the same Board such as the State Board of Behavioral Sciences. There are different national organizations representing these subspecialties as in APA, ACA, NASP, ect... There are many overlapping areas of these professions. Now there are professional calling themselves "Coaches" and many psychologists have jumped on board to doing professional "Coach" consulting with individuals and agencies. Yet, we have people who do not even have a BA or BS degree calling themselves professional life Coach.

Some States do not require a license to practice or regulations to practice Applied Behavior Analysis. There are people who have taken an online ABA course and now they are charging $2000 dollars per week for providing ABA services to school districts, when the School District already has School Psychologists with more knowledge and training but they are only paying them the equivalent of the MS degree in Teaching---$45,000 to $55,000 per year.

Scope of practice needs to be considered as there are EdS trained School Psychologists who have assessment and evaluation skills at a much higher competency than your average PhD/PsyD trained clinical psychologists. Also, there are LPC's whe are clinical directors of inpatient substance abuse treatment program who have a much higher competence than the PhD/PsyD trained clinical psychologists in directing inpatient substance abuse programs. It is virtually impossible to maintain a broad based knowledge base even at the PhD/PsyD clinical psychologists level so most PhD/PsyD clinical psychologists end up specializing. Therefore, to some extent the broad based training approach of the PhD/PsyD clinical psychologists becomes redundant as once we are practicing in the field we typically lose this knowledge. LPCs and EdS trainied school psychologists begin specializing during their degree whereas many PhD/PsyD clinical psychologist do not begin specializing until after they have become licensed so in some respects they are behind or have been dumb downed by their broad based training over five to six years.

Originally Posted by 4410

Scope of practice needs to be considered as there are EdS trained School Psychologists who have assessment and evaluation skills at a much higher competency than your average PhD/PsyD trained clinical psychologists. Also, there are LPC's whe are clinical directors of inpatient substance abuse treatment program who have a much higher competence than the PhD/PsyD trained clinical psychologists in directing inpatient substance abuse programs. It is virtually impossible to maintain a broad based knowledge base even at the PhD/PsyD clinical psychologists level so most PhD/PsyD clinical psychologists end up specializing. Therefore, to some extent the broad based training approach of the PhD/PsyD clinical psychologists becomes redundant as once we are practicing in the field we typically lose this knowledge. LPCs and EdS trainied school psychologists begin specializing during their degree where as many PhD/PsyD clinical psychologist do not begin specializing until after they have become licensed so in some respects they are behind or have been dumb downed by their broad based training over five to six years.

Wow, that paragraph is just all kinds of wrong. Most, if not all, PhDs and some PsyDs do get specialized training before they get licensed. Many programs, mine included, have advanced study areas (mine were neuropsych and behavioral medicine) and this pesky thing called a dissertation that requires one to gain specialized knowledge in an area of the field. I have many Eds and PhD level School psych friends and their training was limited in psychometrics, their exposure was to a narrower set of educational tests, and their understanding of the underlying neurophysiology non-existent (I know because I have tutored several of them). Are there EdS folks that are more familiar with tests than psychologists that don't practice in that area and have no interest in doing so (say a person specializing in mood disorders therapy)? Absolutely, but that is a bit a moot point as those folks are not the one you see to have your child evaluated. You see a pediatric neuropsychologist for that and that person has significantly more competence than an EdS in that area. The only area EdS may be more competent is in special education law and related issues.

As for the LPC running a inpatient rehab, they may have more experience than me running a pt through standard rehab practices. However, I would love to see one who could sit down and teach me a thing or two about being able to take, say a long term alcoholic trauma victim, and differentiate between his korsakoff's dementia, past trauma, and hx of stroke and heart problems and how all of these conditions come together to inform issues related to his ability to successfully complete substance abuse rehabilitation. That is where that useless broad based training comes in handy.

Originally Posted by Sanman

Wow, that paragraph is just all kinds of wrong. Most, if not all, PhDs and some PsyDs do get specialized training before they get licensed. Many programs, mine included, have advanced study areas (mine were neuropsych and behavioral medicine) and this pesky thing called a dissertation that requires one to gain specialized knowledge in an area of the field. I have many Eds and PhD level School psych friends and their training was limited in psychometrics, their exposure was to a narrower set of educational tests, and their understanding of the underlying neurophysiology non-existent (I know because I have tutored several of them). Are there EdS folks that are more familiar with tests than psychologists that don't practice in that area and have no interest in doing so (say a person specializing in mood disorders therapy)? Absolutely, but that is a bit a moot point as those folks are not the one you see to have your child evaluated. You see a pediatric neuropsychologist for that and that person has significantly more competence than an EdS in that area. The only area EdS may be more competent is in special education law and related issues.

As for the LPC running a inpatient rehab, they may have more experience than me running a pt through standard rehab practices. However, I would love to see one who could sit down and teach me a thing or two about being able to take, say a long term alcoholic trauma victim, and differentiate between his korsakoff's dementia, past trauma, and hx of stroke and heart problems and how all of these conditions come together to inform issues related to his ability to successfully complete substance abuse rehabilitation. That is where that useless broad based training comes in handy.

It is my understanding that to maintain APA accreditation that clinical training must have a large breadth of knowledge and be broadly based training rather than specialized training. Even in the predococtoral internship, rotations are required without specialization until the postdoctoral internship training. In my program I have interest in clinical psychopharmacology and pediatric neuropsychology. I decided to complete the two-year clinical psychopharmacology training and to take four addtional courses in pediatric neuropsychology at a different university as a non degree students. This specialized training was outside of the APA curriculum model that the PsyD program I attend is modeled after to meet the requirements of becoming an APA accredited program. My pediatric neuropsychology courses were in a non APA accredited school psychology program so they still had the specialization in neuropsychology that you rarely will find in a doctoral level clinical psychology program or onces they are APA accredited. Normally, students have to be creative at getting this specialized training while completing their doctoral degree training in clinical psychology.

Originally Posted by 4410

I believe some of the confusion lies with there being doctoral level trained LPC and School Psychologists as well as master's prepared clinical psychology programs and doctoral level clinical psychology programs. .

No. The confusion lies in your posts. You are responsbile. No one else.

Moderators: How long do we have to keep fighting this fight? Can someone please talk about this? Is the integrity of one's posts not important? If someone fragrantly and repeatedly does this, are they not violating TOS?!! Besides I think of some of the things said by 4410 are so egregiousness ignorant that it is doubtfulness this person is even in graduate school (we have talked about this before). I mean, to say "no specialized training till after licensure?!" I know this person seems to exist in his own little psych world (that is nothing like any of ours), but no actual grad student would think that.

Originally Posted by erg923

No. The confusion lies in your posts. You are responsbile. No one else.

Moderators: How long do we have to keep fighting this fight. Is not integrity of posts important? If someone fragrantly and repeatedly does this, are they not violating TOS?!! Besides I think of some of the things said by 4410 are so egregiousness ignorant that it is doubtfulness this person is even in graduate school (we have talked about this before). I mean, to say "no specialized training till after licensure?!" I know this person seems to exist in his own litle psych world, but no actual grad student would think that.

Clearly not. Welcome to why I don't bother posting as much as I used to, it now seems like every other thread devolves into this garbage, and most actual interesting questions are derailed or ignored.

To get things back on topic, in NYC, specialist degree school psych interns don't usually earn any money at all. However if your lucky enough to be a bilingual school psychologist who speaks an in demand language, then that changes everything. It's possible to get internships for 50k+ due to the huge demand for that, although it does come with a commit to accept DOE employment for an additional 2 years (but hey guaranteed employment in this economy isn't such a bad thing either).

Originally Posted by aagman01

School psychology internships do not pay exactly the same as a state boarded school psychologist in most cases - although the salary can be close depending on the state and district. However, popular cities, such as Chicago and Seattle, are notorious for paying interns salaries of $15,000. Also, some very popular cities do not even pay interns in school psych at all (e.g. Boston and are two I have heard that do not offer stipends - although apparently small stipends are sometimes available for school psych interns if they are bilingual)

Thanks Faded: The city I meant to post prior to "and Boston" was NYC.

Originally Posted by FadedC

To get things back on topic, in NYC, specialist degree school psych interns don't usually earn any money at all. However if your lucky enough to be a bilingual school psychologist who speaks an in demand language, then that changes everything. It's possible to get internships for 50k+ due to the huge demand for that, although it does come with a commit to accept DOE employment for an additional 2 years (but hey guaranteed employment in this economy isn't such a bad thing either).

Sanman,

Just be careful of not falling into the same trap as 4410 frequently initiates (i.e. generalizing his understanding of policies and practices onto the broader field). School psych training at the PhD level can vary quite substantially from program to program. Many are, it is true, psychoeducational focused and provide limited training into psychiatric illness or the broader clinical field. However, there are many school psych programs that are more akin to child-clinical programs in their breath and scope of training. Check out examples from the school psychology programs at:
Tulane University - http://psych.tulane.edu/graduate/Sch...ourprogram.htm
South Carolina - http://www.psych.sc.edu/grad_psycsch/schprog.html
UT Austin - http://www.edb.utexas.edu/education/...p/doctoral/sp/



{Wow, that paragraph is just all kinds of wrong. Most, if not all, PhDs and some PsyDs do get specialized training before they get licensed. Many programs, mine included, have advanced study areas (mine were neuropsych and behavioral medicine) and this pesky thing called a dissertation that requires one to gain specialized knowledge in an area of the field. I have many Eds and PhD level School psych friends and their training was limited in psychometrics, their exposure was to a narrower set of educational tests, and their understanding of the underlying neurophysiology non-existent (I know because I have tutored several of them). Are there EdS folks that are more familiar with tests than psychologists that don't practice in that area and have no interest in doing so (say a person specializing in mood disorders therapy)? Absolutely, but that is a bit a moot point as those folks are not the one you see to have your child evaluated. You see a pediatric neuropsychologist for that and that person has significantly more competence than an EdS in that area. The only area EdS may be more competent is in special education law and related issues.

As for the LPC running a inpatient rehab, they may have more experience than me running a pt through standard rehab practices. However, I would love to see one who could sit down and teach me a thing or two about being able to take, say a long term alcoholic trauma victim, and differentiate between his korsakoff's dementia, past trauma, and hx of stroke and heart problems and how all of these conditions come together to inform issues related to his ability to successfully complete substance abuse rehabilitation. That is where that useless broad based training comes in handy.}

Originally Posted by 4410

It is my understanding that to maintain APA accreditation that clinical training must have a large breadth of knowledge and be broadly based training rather than specialized training. Even in the predococtoral internship, rotations are required without specialization until the postdoctoral internship training. In my program I have interest in clinical psychopharmacology and pediatric neuropsychology. I decided to complete the two-year clinical psychopharmacology training and to take four addtional courses in pediatric neuropsychology at a different university as a non degree students. This specialized training was outside of the APA curriculum model that the PsyD program I attend is modeled after to meet the requirements of becoming an APA accredited program. My pediatric neuropsychology courses were in a non APA accredited school psychology program so they still had the specialization in neuropsychology that you rarely will find in a doctoral level clinical psychology program or onces they are APA accredited. Normally, students have to be creative at getting this specialized training while completing their doctoral degree training in clinical psychology.

I really don't know what program you attend, but I can't believe that you would not understand the difference in the areas of training that certain students receive. Every student in my program attended the same general classes. However, we all had different externships, directed study with different professors, and different dissertation areas. Similarly, on internship, we all carried general caseloads one day of the week and had specialty rotations on other days. The APA mandates that there be a certain level of general training and knowledge in a program. Nowhere does it not allow certain students to pursue specialty interests. I had little problem doing this. If you have an interest in pediatric neuropsych, find a program that was a pediatric neuropsychologist on faculty and apply to work with him/her. Programs and internships vary widely with regard to ability to specialize and the types of experiences available. Looking into these things before hand reduces the need to 'be creative'.

At my state school, the top earners pull 24k, a bit saddening considering their debts and work ethic

Originally Posted by 4410

I believe some of the confusion lies with there being doctoral level trained LPC and School Psychologists as well as master's prepared clinical psychology programs and doctoral level clinical psychology programs.

...because you are trying to muddy the waters. There are clear competency differences between each type of training.

Originally Posted by 4410

Scope of practice needs to be considered as there are EdS trained School Psychologists who have assessment and evaluation skills at a much higher competency than your average PhD/PsyD trained clinical psychologists.

Also, there are LPC's whe are clinical directors of inpatient substance abuse treatment program who have a much higher competence than the PhD/PsyD trained clinical psychologists in directing inpatient substance abuse programs.

LPCs and EdS trainied school psychologists begin specializing during their degree whereas many PhD/PsyD clinical psychologist do not begin specializing until after they have become licensed so in some respects they are behind or have been dumb downed by their broad based training over five to six years.

For the benefit of new posters not familiar with 4410....he has yet to provide ANY cited responses to ANY of the ridiculous assertions he has made. For instance: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...=782631&page=2

He is truly reckless in his posts, so beware of his misinformation.

Well, additionally, the APA training requirements for school psychologists and clinical psychologists are identifical. If someone is running into school psych phd students without, for example, psychometrics training, then they would have to be from a non APA program.

Originally Posted by aagman01

Sanman,

Just be careful of not falling into the same trap as 4410 frequently initiates (i.e. generalizing his understanding of policies and practices onto the broader field). School psych training at the PhD level can vary quite substantially from program to program. Many are, it is true, psychoeducational focused and provide limited training into psychiatric illness or the broader clinical field. However, there are many school psych programs that are more akin to child-clinical programs in their breath and scope of training. Check out examples from the school psychology programs at:
Tulane University - http://psych.tulane.edu/graduate/Sch...ourprogram.htm
South Carolina - http://www.psych.sc.edu/grad_psycsch/schprog.html
UT Austin - http://www.edb.utexas.edu/education/...p/doctoral/sp/



{Wow, that paragraph is just all kinds of wrong. Most, if not all, PhDs and some PsyDs do get specialized training before they get licensed. Many programs, mine included, have advanced study areas (mine were neuropsych and behavioral medicine) and this pesky thing called a dissertation that requires one to gain specialized knowledge in an area of the field. I have many Eds and PhD level School psych friends and their training was limited in psychometrics, their exposure was to a narrower set of educational tests, and their understanding of the underlying neurophysiology non-existent (I know because I have tutored several of them). Are there EdS folks that are more familiar with tests than psychologists that don't practice in that area and have no interest in doing so (say a person specializing in mood disorders therapy)? Absolutely, but that is a bit a moot point as those folks are not the one you see to have your child evaluated. You see a pediatric neuropsychologist for that and that person has significantly more competence than an EdS in that area. The only area EdS may be more competent is in special education law and related issues.

As for the LPC running a inpatient rehab, they may have more experience than me running a pt through standard rehab practices. However, I would love to see one who could sit down and teach me a thing or two about being able to take, say a long term alcoholic trauma victim, and differentiate between his korsakoff's dementia, past trauma, and hx of stroke and heart problems and how all of these conditions come together to inform issues related to his ability to successfully complete substance abuse rehabilitation. That is where that useless broad based training comes in handy.}

Originally Posted by FadedC

Well, additionally, the APA training requirements for school psychologists and clinical psychologists are identifical. If someone is running into school psych phd students without, for example, psychometrics training, then they would have to be from a non APA program.

That is at the doctoral level. I see where the confusion is coming from. While I have friends who are in EdS and PhD School psychology programs, the experiences I was referring to were related 4410's assertion that an EdS would have more specialized knowledge of assessment compared to an average clinical PhD/PsyD rather than the person I know in the PhD school-child clinical program. The Doctoral level school psych programs are a whole different ball game as a number of them also double as Child-clinical programs, etc. Sorry about that.

Commonly the psychometric component is met in the MS degree with Statistics I and II, research methods, and psychometric theory. There are many folks with the MS degree in psychology who are actually working as staff in PhD psychology programs and doing most of the statistical work for students in the doctoral program. Geez...it is statistics and research...no one said you had to be a rocket scientist to know this stuff. The majority of it is done now with statistics computer programs as in SPSS. Many Medical School Research programs are coordinated and done by MS level psychology degreed individuals not PhD level clinical psychologist. The primary purpose to acquire the doctoral degree in clinical psychology is to acquire licensure and work as an independent practitioner, not as a psychometrician or someone necessarily using psychometric theory. If you believe the difference between MS level prepared and doctoral prepared psychologists is knowledge of psychometric theory...you have to be kidding!!!

Rarely, will you find a licensed psychologist bragging about how much he knows about statistics and research because most understand it was just one of the hurdles they had to pass to get to the doctoral degree. No one uses this stuff after they get licensed, and the scientific or empirical basis of psychology is not considered a hard science but it is a soft science with many different levels of interpretation. If you believe that psychology or the study of human behavior is similar to physic, then you are really delusional.

Ah that makes more sense then. Yeah specialist degree level school psychologists can vary widely in the bredth and depth of their assessment training, depending on what they choose to focus their practicum and internship time on. But they generally recieve only minimal training in psychometrics.

Originally Posted by Sanman

That is at the doctoral level. I see where the confusion is coming from. While I have friends who are in EdS and PhD School psychology programs, the experiences I was referring to were related 4410's assertion that an EdS would have more specialized knowledge of assessment compared to an average clinical PhD/PsyD rather than the person I know in the PhD school-child clinical program. The Doctoral level school psych programs are a whole different ball game as a number of them also double as Child-clinical programs, etc. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by 4410

Commonly the psychometric component is met in the MS degree with Statistics I and II, research methods, and psychometric theory. There are many folks with the MS degree in psychology who are actually working as staff in PhD psychology programs and doing most of the statistical work for students in the doctoral program. Geez...it is statistics and research...no one said you had to be a rocket scientist to know this stuff. The majority of it is done now with statistics computer programs as in SPSS. Many Medical School Research programs are coordinated and done by MS level psychology degreed individuals not PhD level clinical psychologist. The primary purpose to acquire the doctoral degree in clinical psychology is to acquire licensure and work as an independent practitioner, not as a psychometrician or someone necessarily using psychometric theory. If you believe the difference between MS level prepared and doctoral prepared psychologists is knowledge of psychometric theory...you have to be kidding!!!

Rarely, will you find a licensed psychologist bragging about how much he knows about statistics and research because most understand it was just one of the hurdles they had to pass to get to the doctoral degree. No one uses this stuff after they get licensed, and the scientific or empirical basis of psychology is not considered a hard science but it is a soft science with many different levels of interpretation. If you believe that psychology or the study of human behavior is similar to physic, then you are really delusional.

As someone who completed a dissertation at a medical school/academic medical center chaired by a psychologist (PhD),is authoring an article for publication, and who is currently working with my current employer on outcomes research and has interests in program evaluation, I find most of your assertions laughable. However, please do post links to these multiple MS level school psychologists coordinating medical school research programs. Now, I have met masters level research coordinators a number of institutions. However, these were experimental psychology grads with significant emphasis in research design and statistics in their programs. See, what you did there is equate the training of one master's program to another. Those individuals were also not the primary investigator on the project/grant (a PhD was in all cases).

As to the bolded part, that is your opinion of what the primary purpose of the PhD is. Having taken assessment courses with as least one professor that is currently involved in the development of a major psychological assessment tool, I would tell you that he would see his knowledge of psychometric theory as an extremely important component of this training and a large part of his career. If you don't believe that to be true, you can always wait until a lawyer pays him a lot of money to rip apart your forensic assessment. That you believe that independent practice of clinical work is the only asset of a doctorate is rather silly considering all the different types of work psychologists do.

I am waiting for 4410 to cite anything that supports his inaccurate and misleading posts. I would really feel badly for anyone who might attempt to leverage the "facts" posted by him in support of a discussion on psychology.

Originally Posted by 4410

Commonly the psychometric component is met in the MS degree with Statistics I and II, research methods, and psychometric theory. There are many folks with the MS degree in psychology who are actually working as staff in PhD psychology programs and doing most of the statistical work for students in the doctoral program. Geez...it is statistics and research...no one said you had to be a rocket scientist to know this stuff. The majority of it is done now with statistics computer programs as in SPSS. Many Medical School Research programs are coordinated and done by MS level psychology degreed individuals not PhD level clinical psychologist. The primary purpose to acquire the doctoral degree in clinical psychology is to acquire licensure and work as an independent practitioner, not as a psychometrician or someone necessarily using psychometric theory. If you believe the difference between MS level prepared and doctoral prepared psychologists is knowledge of psychometric theory...you have to be kidding!!!

Rarely, will you find a licensed psychologist bragging about how much he knows about statistics and research because most understand it was just one of the hurdles they had to pass to get to the doctoral degree. No one uses this stuff after they get licensed, and the scientific or empirical basis of psychology is not considered a hard science but it is a soft science with many different levels of interpretation. If you believe that psychology or the study of human behavior is similar to physic, then you are really delusional.

If you're using psychological tests, then you're using psychometric theory to at least some extent. And if you're interpreting these tests without training in, and application of, psychometric principles, then you're interpreting them incorrectly.

As for stats, simply because computers are "running the numbers" nowadays doesn't mean that knowledge of stats isn't required. Quite the opposite, actually--because it's so easy to simply hit a few keys and mine some data, one could argue that it's even more important to have a solid understanding of what it is you're actually doing so that you can choose to correct analyses and interpret your findings accurately. Using SEM is a great example, with AMOS having made it pretty darn easy to get yourself in over your head quickly without actually realizing it.

As for the bolded portion, again, making sweeping, hyperbolic claims that are (in this case) false isn't going change the reality. Many of the psychologists with whom you've worked may never "use this stuff," although I have my doubts, but to say that none do is obviously incorrect. As for the hard science/soft science debate, that's subjective and largely dependent on with whom you're talking/arguing. If psychology were going to be compared to anything, though, physics is as good a start as any (what with "psychophysics" and all that).

AA: Are any of the mods going to address this? Or would they prefer long-time posters leave this board because 9/10 interesting threads now disolve into nothing but correcting a bunch of false information and other assorted garbage from 4410?

Really, 4410. Why? Seriously. Cut it out. That is false and we all know you must be some kind of troll by now.

Originally Posted by erg923

AA: Are any of the mods going to address this? Or would they prefer long-time posters leave this board because 9/10 interesting threads now disolve into nothing but correcting a bunch of false information and other assorted garbage from 4410?

The mods are dealing with this privately, as we do with all reported posts and disciplinary action. We take our (volunteer) jobs seriously.

Just be careful of not falling into the same trap as 4410 frequently initiates (i.e. generalizing his understanding of policies and practices onto the broader field). School psych training at the PhD level can vary quite substantially from program to program. Many are, it is true, psychoeducational focused and provide limited training into psychiatric illness or the broader clinical field. However, there are many school psych programs that are more akin to child-clinical programs in their breath and scope of training. Check out examples from the school psychology programs at:
Tulane University - http://psych.tulane.edu/graduate/Sch...ourprogram.htm
South Carolina - http://www.psych.sc.edu/grad_psycsch/schprog.html
UT Austin - http://www.edb.utexas.edu/education/...p/doctoral/sp/

Texas A&M is another more child clinically focused one.

Originally Posted by Markp

You can always consider the military. Question is, would you be willing to do that in order to have a good salary?

due to my pacifist nature, military is not possible.

Wow, I leave the board for a little over 24 hours and look at the pandemonium that ensues Thanks everyone for your replies and for pointing out misinformation that is presented as fact.

So, this career path seems more complicated then most. I’m going to try and sum of what has been discussed here so far, but please feel free to correct any mistakes or oversimplifications I may be guilty of.

It seems to me that there are 2 separate career paths that someone with my interests could pursue: school psychologist or adolescent therapist.

To become a licensed school psychologist eligible for full employment, I would have to do a Masters EdS course (2 years?), followed by a state licensing exam, a practicum course and then a year-long internship (that generally isn’t paid). Another important thing to note is that each state has their own particular laws, but this seems to be the general school psychologist route.

Now, the adolescent therapist route is another beast entirely. There are a few different ways to fulfill the education requirements, but the most common ones are LPC, MSW and Masters in Clinical Psychology degrees (2-3 years? I’m not sure). Following this, it is necessary to do an (1 or 2 year? paid or unpaid?) internship. Once again, I’m aware that each state has different laws, but i’m just looking to find the common procedures that exist no matter where you choose to pursue your career.

To clarify, it's generally about 3 years total to become a specialist degree school psychologist. This includes practicum and internship time. It sounds like there are many states where the internship is paid, but that's something to be aware of on a case by case basis, depending on where you want to work.

Originally Posted by imapretender

To become a licensed school psychologist eligible for full employment, I would have to do a Masters EdS course (2 years?), followed by a state licensing exam, a practicum course and then a year-long internship (that generally isn’t paid). Another important thing to note is that each state has their own particular laws, but this seems to be the general school psychologist route.