Lawsuit against California Northstate CP

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I got this PM and thought my answer could be interesting/useful to some of you:

Originally Posted by anonymous

So I read in one of the threads that non-refundable deposits can be refundable. I gave *** 500 bucks for a deposit but decided to attend a different school....legally, can I ask for it back?

This is tricky, it's not a hard and fast rule that deposit = refundable and retainer = non-refundable.

First, $500 is not worth going to court over. You'd spend a dollar to earn a dime, so to speak.

Second, even if you did go to court, you'd have to prove that the $500 deposit was an unenforceable penalty since the school could go on and fill your seat...this probably won't be difficult, unless there was some sort of liquidated damages clause in your deposit contract that is agreed upon at the time of signing, which would then supersede the "non-refundable" part of the deposit.

"Non-refundable" is still erroneous and unenforceable, the contract needs other mechanisms to determine this.

As always, this is just my own legal musing. If you do intend to take any action, consult a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

EDIT: to answer your question, yes you can legally ask for it back (it's your legal right), but are they legally required to give it back to you? that's a question for the courts.

Originally Posted by youRCC

Yep, they know there are plenty of schools out there for students to defect to, and how most students think CNCP is a back-up school. I'm sure schools like UCSF or UNC - Chapel Hill pretty much have a $0 deposit. LOL.

Anyway, I thought withholding deposits in the state of CA is illegal? I recently pre-ordered something, and even the sales representative mentioned this to me. Plus, I checked it out, and what he said was true. So how does CNCP get to legally keep the deposit? Or is that part of what the lawsuit is about?

Sooo...I was debating whether to post this. As noted in the other thread's pdf file, CNCP is in violation of "mandatory cancellation, withdrawal, and refund policies." I found it weird that they were in violation because when I withdrew my seat, CNCP miraculously decides to refund me $1250/$1500 of my deposit back. I (happily) wondered why, considering that they said none of it was refundable. Could this be because of California law previously mentioned? I wonder if they are in violation because of the $5000 seat deposit policy?

Originally Posted by patientlover

Sooo...I was debating whether to post this. As noted in the other thread's pdf file, CNCP is in violation of "mandatory cancellation, withdrawal, and refund policies." I found it weird that they were in violation because when I withdrew my seat, CNCP miraculously decides to refund me $1250/$1500 of my deposit back. I (happily) wondered why, considering that they said none of it was refundable. Could this be because of California law previously mentioned? I wonder if they are in violation because of the $5000 seat deposit policy?

Oh sh*t. I never knew about 94920b.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/..._chaptered.pdf

Institutions shall refund 100 percent of the amount paid for
institutional charges, less a reasonable deposit or application fee not to
exceed two hundred fifty dollars ($250), if notice of cancellation is made
through attendance at the rst class session, or the seventh day after
enrollment, whichever is later.

So...does this mean that legally speaking, ALL schools in California are subject to a $250 limit for seat deposits?

If so, holy crap!


Also, in addition to the lawsuit, CNCP has had a number of violations cited by the State of California:
http://www.bppe.ca.gov/enforcement/a...c_41462826.pdf
(Dated 4/13/12)

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

Oh sh*t. I never knew about 94920b.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/..._chaptered.pdf

Wow...you really do know your law stuff....

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

So...does this mean that legally speaking, ALL schools in California are subject to a $250 limit for seat deposits?

If so, holy crap!

Can anyone's personal experience vouch for this?

Oh, nevermind, I don't think it's all California schools.

"94920. An institution that does not participate in the federal student
financial aid programs shall do all of the following:

(a) The institution shall advise each student that a notice of cancellation
shall be in writing, and that a withdrawal may be effectuated by the student’s
written notice or by the student’s conduct, including, but not necessarily
limited to, a student’s lack of attendance.
(b) Institutions shall refund 100 percent of the amount paid for
institutional charges, less a reasonable deposit or application fee not to
exceed two hundred fifty dollars ($250), if notice of cancellation is made
through attendance at the first class session, or the seventh day after
enrollment, whichever is later."

CNCP falls under the category that I just bolded, whereas other California schools don't.

Originally Posted by patientlover

Can anyone's personal experience vouch for this?

For some reason I doubt many people ask/test this...your personal experience is evidence enough for me.

Maybe the guy who PM'd me should ask for $250 of his $500 back and get back to us, haha.

I believe the only two schools that charge so much are Touro and CNCP...best to target those students.

I'd start a separate thread to inform students of their rights under CA law but I'm not 150% convinced I have all the information needed to make that statement. Part of me still thinks there's an exception floating around out there.

Originally Posted by patientlover

Oh, nevermind, I don't think it's all California schools.

"94920. An institution that does not participate in the federal student
financial aid programs shall do all of the following:"

CNCP falls under that category, whereas other California schools don't.

Doh. Good catch =( Man, my catching things is a bit rusty tonight. I wonder if there are refund provisions for those schools that do participate in federal programs.

FOUND IT!

(a) An institution that participates in the federal student
financial aid programs complies with this article by complying with
applicable regulations of the federal student financial aid programs
under Title IV of the federal Higher Education Act of 1965.
(b) The institution shall advise each student that a notice of
cancellation shall be in writing, and that a withdrawal may be
effectuated by the student's written notice or by the student's
conduct, including, but not necessarily limited to, a student's lack
of attendance.
(c) The institution shall also provide a pro rata refund of
nonfederal student financial aid program moneys paid for
institutional charges to students who have completed 60 percent or
less of the period of attendance.
(d) Institutions shall refund 100 percent of the amount paid for
institutional charges, less a reasonable deposit or application fee
not to exceed two hundred fifty dollars ($250), if notice of
cancellation is made through attendance at the first class session,
or the seventh day after enrollment, whichever is later.

This is in section 94919

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

FOUND IT!

This is in section 94919

Haha now we can start surveying people that have laid a deposit on a California school and then cancelled their seat later.

Relating what we just read back to CNCP, doesn't this mean asking for a $5000 absolutely non-refundable seat deposit is illegal? Is that why they're in violation?

P.S. Have you considered being a lawyer? It seems like you know your law stuff like it's nothing haha.

Originally Posted by patientlover

Haha now we can start surveying people that have laid a deposit on a California school and then cancelled their seat later.

Relating what we just read back to CNCP, doesn't this mean asking for a $5000 absolutely non-refundable seat deposit is illegal?

P.S. Have you considered being a lawyer? It seems like you know your law stuff like it's nothing haha.

Asking for a non-refundable deposit is perfectly legal, but issues will arise should the paying party ask for a refund.

1) If the entity is a school (as is the case w/ CNCP), by statute, the deposit is refundable no matter what. Even if both parties agree to it being non-refundable, CA Ed. Code §94922 explicitly forbids waiving of these rights.

2) If the entity is NOT a school (or otherwise governed by separate statute), then it depends on any agreed upon liquidated damages clause (as described in my previous post) or the merits of a case brought forth in court.

Basically, I can ask for a non-refundable deposit but it's meaningless because a judge will rule that it IS refundable, so in reality it was never non-refundable in the first place.

And yes law is on my radar/7-10 year plan, though I probably won't get a JD. I'll most likely do office study on my own and just sit for the California Bar Exam and become a lawyer. I figure 8 years of school is enough, don't need another 3 & the expense/time of it.

You know what's interesting

http://www.law.whittier.edu/index/apply

Whittier LAW SCHOOL requires a total sum of deposits to be $400 ($150+$250) and explicitly states that they are non-refundable. Makes me wonder:

a) someone not familiar with the statutes came up with this policy
b) it's never been tested here
c) or it has been tested just not publicized
d) they know something we don't
e) some combo of the above

based on what i saw in the CNCP thread, schools are required to keep track of withdrawals and these refunds, so hmmmmmmm...

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

You know what's interesting

http://www.law.whittier.edu/index/apply

Whittier LAW SCHOOL requires a total sum of deposits to be $400 ($150+$250) and explicitly states that they are non-refundable. Makes me wonder:

a) someone not familiar with the statutes came up with this policy
b) it's never been tested here
c) or it has been tested just not publicized
d) they know something we don't
e) some combo of the above

f) the law school ironically doesn't follow the law

lol jk

Originally Posted by patientlover

94920. An institution that does not participate in the federal student
financial aid programs shall do all of the following:

(a) The institution shall advise each student that a notice of cancellation
shall be in writing, and that a withdrawal may be effectuated by the student’s
written notice or by the student’s conduct, including, but not necessarily
limited to, a student’s lack of attendance.
(b) Institutions shall refund 100 percent of the amount paid for
institutional charges, less a reasonable deposit or application fee not to
exceed two hundred fifty dollars ($250), if notice of cancellation is made
through attendance at the first class session, or the seventh day after
enrollment, whichever is later.

To be REALLY technical here, shouldn't the "less $250" include the $75 supplemental fee? So in reality, it should be $4825 that you're getting back, right?

I was also thinking of including the $50 PharmCAS fee for CNCP ($150 if CNCP was the only school you applied to), but that would mean you would be entitled to ALL of the money back that you spent on PharmCAS (except for the $150 amount that you've spent to accept whatever school you got into), and PharmCAS would probably just argue that these are "service" fees.

Originally Posted by patientlover

Sooo...I was debating whether to post this. As noted in the other thread's pdf file, CNCP is in violation of "mandatory cancellation, withdrawal, and refund policies." I found it weird that they were in violation because when I withdrew my seat, CNCP miraculously decides to refund me $1250/$1500 of my deposit back. I (happily) wondered why, considering that they said none of it was refundable. Could this be because of California law previously mentioned? I wonder if they are in violation because of the $5000 seat deposit policy?

Then according to what's been discovered here, you got short-changed. LOL.

Originally Posted by youRCC

Then according to what's been discovered here, you got short-changed. LOL.

eh?

$1500 deposit - $250 maximum statutory fee = $1250 refund which is what she got, nothing shortchanged by my calculation.

Originally Posted by youRCC

To be REALLY technical here, shouldn't the "less $250" include the $75 supplemental fee? So in reality, it should be $4825 that you're getting back, right?

I was also thinking of including the $50 PharmCAS fee for CNCP ($150 if CNCP was the only school you applied to), but that would mean you would be entitled to ALL of the money back that you spent on PharmCAS (except for the $150 amount that you've spent to accept whatever school you got into), and PharmCAS would probably just argue that these are "service" fees.

Good point, I have a few theories on why PharmCAS and supplemental fees wouldn't count.

1) PharmCAS fees are paid to PharmCAS, which is not governed by California Education Code.

2) Supplemental fees are paid prior to being admitted as a student whereas the deposit is paid after being accepted (weak argument).

I like siding with your idea more because the statute specifically mentions "application fee" as part of that $250 so yes, indeed a student would be entitled to a refund of ($5000 deposit + $100 supplemental - $250 statutory maximum) = $4850 refund due.

Weren't you the one exclaiming the $5,000 deposit earlier?

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

oh and from the other thread:


HOLY CRAP the seat deposit at CNCP is $5000

FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS??!?!?

$5000 deposit - $250 maximum statutory fee =/= $1250 refund

Originally Posted by youRCC

Weren't you the one exclaiming the $5,000 deposit earlier?

$5000 deposit - $250 maximum statutory fee =/= $1250 refund

Reread patientlover's post, she said she paid a $1500 deposit and got $1250 back. I don't know at what point in time this was. The $5000 figure was from the CNCP 2016 thread that someone else posted. We're referencing/discussing two different things in here.

Originally Posted by youRCC

To be REALLY technical here, shouldn't the "less $250" include the $75 supplemental fee? So in reality, it should be $4825 that you're getting back, right?

I was also thinking of including the $50 PharmCAS fee for CNCP ($150 if CNCP was the only school you applied to), but that would mean you would be entitled to ALL of the money back that you spent on PharmCAS (except for the $150 amount that you've spent to accept whatever school you got into), and PharmCAS would probably just argue that these are "service" fees.

Originally Posted by youRCC

Then according to what's been discovered here, you got short-changed. LOL.

Haha sorry, I can't keep up with the constant posting haha. I think there's something I have to clarify on CNCP's policies.

The initial deposit to hold a seat after you get accepted is $1500. If you choose to hold that seat until June/July, you have to lay down an additional $5000. I chose to withdraw my seat during this current cycle, monthsssssss ago. Hence why my refund is $1250/$1500.

Anyways, you do make a good point about the 94940(b). I was honestly confused about that myself. However, my weakass interpretation of "(b) Institutions shall refund 100 percent of the amount paid for
institutional charges, less a reasonable deposit OR application fee not to
exceed two hundred fifty dollars ($250)" refers to the deposit or application fees as separate things.

Originally Posted by patientlover

Haha sorry, I can't keep up with the constant posting haha.

you SDN n00bs gotta catch up to your elders' speeds!

PS my PM in your inbox has been sitting for too long.

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

you SDN n00bs gotta catch up to your elders' speeds!

PS my PM in your inbox has been sitting for too long.

Lol, it was only sitting there for 5 minutes!

P.S. I may or may not be multitasking SDN with other things.

Not only did I manage to shoot myself in the foot, but shot the other one too! Whoops!

Originally Posted by patientlover

Lol, it was only sitting there for 5 minutes!

P.S. I may or may not be multitasking SDN with other things.

I should probably be packing right now

or sleeping, it's 330am

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

I should probably be packing right now

or sleeping, it's 330am

I'm eating a donut and watching that one Nanny reality show. Clearly I'm still bored.

Originally Posted by rxlea

I'm eating a donut and watching that one Nanny reality show. Clearly I'm still bored.

I was wondering where you've been all night...slow night on the forums just keeping my fellow Californians busy with some legal work

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

I was wondering where you've been all night...slow night on the forums just keeping my fellow Californians busy with some legal work

I was at the pool. My friends had a get together...bbq, beer, and discussions about existence lol it was awesome.

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

I was wondering where you've been all night...slow night on the forums just keeping my fellow Californians busy with some legal work

Oh and it looks like you got a fun thread going... I'm interested in how this will play out... That thread may become epic like the HICP.

Originally Posted by patientlover

P.S. Have you considered being a lawyer? It seems like you know your law stuff like it's nothing haha.

You must not have been around enough. Confetti is the king of reading crap like that and finding loopholes. If you are bored look at confetti and mine's arguments over PSLF and IBR. Regardless he owes me a beer when his loans are forgiven in 10 years. And naturally I owe him one if they are not.

Anyway <3 confetti and his legalese

Originally Posted by awval999

You must not have been around enough. Confetti is the king of reading crap like that and finding loopholes. If you are bored look at confetti and mine's arguments over PSLF and IBR. Regardless he owes me a beer when his loans are forgiven in 10 years. And naturally I owe him one if they are not.

Anyway <3 confetti and his legalese

Loophole hunting is like a recreational sport for me. My real life friends don't like arguing with me so SDN is my outlet.

I'm sortof a lazy person so anytime I can find a legal/quasi-legal process shortcut I consider it time well spent.

Originally Posted by awval999

You must not have been around enough. Confetti is the king of reading crap like that and finding loopholes. If you are bored look at confetti and mine's arguments over PSLF and IBR. Regardless he owes me a beer when his loans are forgiven in 10 years. And naturally I owe him one if they are not.

Anyway <3 confetti and his legalese

Haha it actually sounds interesting...want to link me?

Originally Posted by patientlover

Haha it actually sounds interesting...want to link me?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=891699
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=865769
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=838771

PS I don't like calling them "loopholes" I much prefer calling them "contractual easter eggs."

It's really sad what some people are capable of. I'm sure ya'll will do great!

Originally Posted by slapthisboy

It's really sad what some people are capable of. I'm sure ya'll will do great!

Plaintiff or defendant?

Patientlover: when u withdrew did u have to ask for a refund or did they automatically said they would give you one? Thanks

Originally Posted by Ayuka001

Patientlover: when u withdrew did u have to ask for a refund or did they automatically said they would give you one? Thanks

I just emailed Gail for the purposes of solely withdrawing my seat, and then they just gave it to me two months later.

At first, I didn't believe my mom when she said cncp mailed a portion of my deposit back. Surprisingly, they did it out of their own will. No strings attached. That's why I'm questioning why they are in violation of "mandatory cancellation, withdrawal, and refund policies."

Originally Posted by patientlover

No strings attached. That's why I'm questioning why they are in violation of "mandatory cancellation, withdrawal, and refund policies."

Two theories:

A) their violations were limited to a handful of cases, your case was in compliance
B) they were already being alerted to violations and were cognizant of processing and recording timely refunds by this point

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

Two theories:

A) their violations were limited to a handful of cases, your case was in compliance
B) they were already being alerted to violations and were cognizant of processing and recording timely refunds by this point

heh heh heh heh....I think I found a small correlation. I looked at the check that they sent me in my records. The date of that the check (4/13/2012) was written matched the same date the Notice to Comply was issued (see pdf file).

I overlooked this possibility because in my mind, the issuing of violations seemed more recent (< 2 weeks ago) due to the time period the pdf file was posted on SDN.

Correlation =/= causation, but the coincidence is too exact to overlook haha.

hmmm... I briefly got to read over some of the posts here. Now I'm wondering if I should ask Touro for some of my $2000 deposit back and let you guys know what they say. lol.

Originally Posted by pannnda

hmmm... I briefly got to read over some of the posts here. Now I'm wondering if I should ask Touro for some of my $2000 deposit back and let you guys know what they say. lol.

Haha whatever you do, just don't tell them you asked because of us haha. As if Touro doesn't hate SDN enough already. xD

On that note, don't expect an easy yes answer. If we assume that there are no additional strings attached to the educational code, that means there's a good chance all California pharm schools are breaching the code as well haha.

Originally Posted by patientlover

Haha whatever you do, just don't tell them you asked because of us haha. As if Touro doesn't hate SDN enough already. xD

On that note, don't expect an easy yes answer. If we assume that there are no additional strings attached to the educational code, that means there's a good chance all California pharm schools are breaching the code as well haha.

I actually glanced over Touro's website, I don't actually think it's listed as a non-refundable deposit...just deposit. You can legally ask for as high of a deposit as possible and omit noting that it's refundable and hope students assume it's non-refundable.

hmm... Look at the "Acceptance" section on the webpage:
http://admissions.tu.edu/cop/process.html

Originally Posted by pannnda

hmm... Look at the "Acceptance" section on the webpage:
http://admissions.tu.edu/cop/process.html

Technically the first $250 of any deposit is non-refundable.

Like I said, I think saying something is non-refundable versus actually withholding someone's deposit should they withdraw is where the line is drawn between legal and not legal.

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

Technically the first $250 of any deposit is non-refundable.

Like I said, I think saying something is non-refundable versus actually withholding someone's deposit should they withdraw is where the line is drawn between legal and not legal.

And then there is the whole timeliness of the refund issue. Does the CA law address this? If not, what's to prevent these schools (other than bad PR) from waiting a year or more before issuing the refund? They could bank that money and make tens and tens of dollars in interest...these ivory towers don't clean themselves.

Originally Posted by 297point1

And then there is the whole timeliness of the refund issue. Does the CA law address this? If not, what's to prevent these schools (other than bad PR) from waiting a year or more before issuing the refund? They could bank that money and make tens and tens of dollars in interest...these ivory towers don't clean themselves.

I believe the law requires a refund within 45 days of notification.

I'm a big fan of certified mail, return receipt.

I just thought of something...knowledge of this law benefits older institutions vs. new ones. If enough people know that deposits are refundable, students will freely accept waitlist offers and abandon schools like CNCP with minimal consequences. The deposit arms race is useless on the west coast.

This could be financially detrimental to schools like CNCP.

I think I'm going to make it my life's work to alert every student on SDN of their rights to this matter. Depriving new schools of $120,000+ in tuition because they're unable to fill a spot last minute is tempting.

Knowledge is power!

Originally Posted by confettiflyer

I just thought of something...knowledge of this law benefits older institutions vs. new ones. If enough people know that deposits are refundable, students will freely accept waitlist offers and abandon schools like CNCP with minimal consequences. The deposit arms race is useless on the west coast.

Let's just say that deposits are going to be a hot topic at AACP this summer.

You are close...but the showdown is shaping up as privates vs. publics, not old vs. new. Programs like Drake and Mercer are older, but they are likely to be aligned against (and not with) University of Iowa and University of Georgia on this issue.

Originally Posted by 297point1

Let's just say that deposits are going to be a hot topic at AACP this summer.

You are close...but the showdown is shaping up as privates vs. publics, not old vs. new. Programs like Drake and Mercer are older, but they are likely to be aligned against (and not with) University of Iowa and University of Georgia on this issue.

I'm bummed I'm missing AACP this summer

Originally Posted by 297point1

Let's just say that deposits are going to be a hot topic at AACP this summer.

You are close...but the showdown is shaping up as privates vs. publics, not old vs. new. Programs like Drake and Mercer are older, but they are likely to be aligned against (and not with) University of Iowa and University of Georgia on this issue.

So what exactly do you mean by this? Do Drake and Mercer require big deposits, that they want to be non-refundable?

Originally Posted by PolymeraseIII

So what exactly do you mean by this? Do Drake and Mercer require big deposits, that they want to be non-refundable?

I don't claim to know what Drake and Mercer want- they were just convenient examples of older programs at private schools.

I am only speculating that like most private schools, Drake and Mercer won't be happy if they lose their expected incoming students to their state school competition the week before classes start, and then have to offer the student withdrawing a full / large chunk of their deposit back.

Originally Posted by pharmnerd2012

I was recently accepted to California Northstate CP class of 2016. I was so excited to get a chance to go there. Then I heard there was a lawsuit against CNCP, I figured it was probably no big deal; lawsuits are filed for really frivolous things, but then I got curious to see what it pertained to. After reading the complaint, I was a bit shocked. Many allegations are made against CNCP, but what caught my attention the most were

1) CNCP participating in illegal tuition schemes
2) CNCP putting profits over education
3) Mr. Brazill reporting to the accreditation board that CNCP lacked the resources necessary for accreditation.

Is this as serious as it sounds? Could CNCP get into trouble if this alleged tuition scheme is

Here is Brad Brazill's linkedin profile, seems like he has been in the pharmacy industry for a while and is credible. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/bradley-j-brazill/32/842/6a

Help!

This is shady as all get out. I really think people need to voice their concern. Jesus. I can't imagine a law school not getting in trouble for this with the ABA. Shady shady shady!