Cut Throat Gunners

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This month, I've been rotating at a program out west and it's my first time interacting with an extern from another school. I'm not sure if it's because we're from different schools or if I'm rubbing him the wrong way or if he's just a bad apple, but he has been trying to one-up me at every turn, even going out of his way to do so. And it's cheesing me off.

For example, if a resident asks us to break down a pt's bandage while rounding, he will rush in front of me so he can do it--even if I happen to be standing squarely in front of the pt's bedside! Some of it is silly stuff too: If I happen to be standing behind an attending while he is gowning, my co-extern will physically place himself between us so he gets to tie the gown. What's annoying is that if I ask a well-thought out question to one of the residents or attendings, and the response is less than enthusiastic, my co-extern will not fail to have some condescending commentary for me, no matter how useless or irrelevant, as though the answer were perfectly obvious to him and I'm a blithering idiot for venturing forth to ask.

In the past, when working with my classmates, my philosophy has been that we're better off cooperating than competing. I help you, you help me, and we're both better off. If the residents then see that we can cooperate, we both look good. Besides, then 5-10 years in the future, we cross paths again, and we say "Oh yeah I remember him, he's really good to work with and a great Dr." Up until this month, I've had nothing but good experiences following that strategy.

What's happening here is that he's scoring points at my expense. I'm trying to be a professional and he's acting like a child. If I start bickering with him, it's going to be mutually destructive, so I'm not going to do that, as much as I'd like to take him down with me. I've basically written off this month, since I feel like he's hogged all the glory. With one week to go, it's fine by me if he wants to go on kissing everyones' butts (to use terms the moderators won't censor).

My question is how do you deal with a person like this? Is he going to succeed following this strategy? Is this what it takes to get a residency? I would expect it for MBA or JD students but not from us. Does it even make a difference who ties off the attending's gown? Am I wrong to prefer cooperation over competition?

Do you know what brake cables look like? Just grab some wire cutters and....um......

......

....I kid, I kid.

I really understand what you mean, though, I absolutely abhor that kind of person. Very willing to step on your face to reach the upper shelf and grab the douchebaggery that was stored up there for safe-keeping.

I'd love to see a resident's reply to this.

You deal with him/her by simply letting him/her play the game and eventually become exposed. The majority of residents and attendings have been around the block a few times and know a kiss-ass wimp when they see one.

We all know that this type of douchebag will NEVER be a team player, and therefore is the last person we want on our team. I was in a similar situation many years ago, and when the guy would run to tie the attendings gown, I would simply make a sarcastic statement about what just happened to make the other guy look like the slime he was at the time. When we were scrubbed and the case was almost over, I would sarcastically say to the attending, "remember to turn my way when you're going to break scrub so I can untie your gown". After all, XXXX was in a hurry to make sure he tied your gown properly, so I want to make sure it's untied correctly". Of course EVERYONE got my point, and more often than not, the attending would appreciate the sarcastic humor, since he would understand the motive behind my comments.

Don't worry, if a program wants this type of resident, then it's a program I would NOT want. These types of docs end up with no allies and rarely end up successful.

Have confidence in yourself and your own skills and knowledge, and ignore this guy. The more he THINKS he's getting under your skin, the more he will feed off of it. Don't stoop to his level and you'll win.....guaranteed.

When I was a student, I was in a similar situation. Oddly, the attendings and residents actually liked him better.

I would take this as a learning experience and make sure it doesn't happen again. For instance I would heed PADPM's advice and call the person out via a snarky remark when you see this occurring again. It will at least bring attention to it and you would have addressed it within the first few days of the externship rather than trying to make everyone aware of it right before the month was over.

Are the residents at this program from SCPM by chance? It sounds like there aren't any because if there were I'm assuming it would be easier to confide in them the issue at hand. Although I'm upset for you, since it seems like this individual is simply sucking up, I'm glad you shared this experience. It's great to get some insight on how things can really go down at a program.

If I was you, I would stay away from any snarky remarks. In a professional environment its best to handle the situation in the most professional way possible.

We've had a student or two like this at our program. I wouldn't worry too much about running into kids like this too often. In my experience you get lazy/bad/unintelligent students more often then the person you described.

My advice, is basically to only follow the last paragraph of PADPM's post. That part was really well said. People will catch on to the smoke your co-extern is blowing. And if they don't then you should evaluate the quality of the program...somebody that dense probably shouldn't be teaching future DPMs.

As a resident I feel comfortable telling you not to act like this guy. You will be better off keeping your mouth shut and letting other kids make fools of themselves (that really applies to every rotation, not just this one).

settle it like gentlemen over a round of fisticuffs in the locker room.

Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile

Originally Posted by RockFoot

settle it like gentlemen over a round of fisticuffs in the locker room.

Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile

That is decidedly ungentleman-like. When you are done with surgery, take off one of your gloves (unbloodied) slap him across the face with it, then challenge him to a duel at high noon. If you can get a good southern accent down, more points to you.

his choice of weapons of course (hoping for scalpels!)

Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile

Buy a saturday night special from a thug on the street along with drugs and put them in his locker then rat him out anonymously. That should take care of the situation.

Originally Posted by NeilD

Buy a saturday night special from a thug on the street along with drugs and put them in his locker then rat him out anonymously. That should take care of the situation.

Mr. Saturday Night.....Special!

Originally Posted by NeilD

Buy a saturday night special from a thug on the street along with drugs and put them in his locker then rat him out anonymously. That should take care of the situation.

Bahahaha. This is NeilD's best contribution to these forums yet!

Thanks for the advice everybody!

The good news: I had a polite discussion with him where I said I'd appreciate it if he backed down a little, since we're both here to work and we shouldn't be jumping on top of each other to fulfill our duties, and he basically agreed.

The bad news: He was acting kind of pissy today and I'm not sure how long before he reverts. (Relapses?)

The worse news: Looks like he and I are rotating together later on at one of my Chicago rotations!

What has blown my mind (if I'm assuming correctly, having a good idea of which schools start rotations when)...this guy is in your class.

If that was one of my classmates, and maybe it's different with a smaller class size, I would have backhanded him before I had the polite discussion...

Originally Posted by Adam Smasher

This month, I've been rotating at a program out west and it's my first time interacting with an extern from another school. I'm not sure if it's because we're from different schools or if I'm rubbing him the wrong way or if he's just a bad apple, but he has been trying to one-up me at every turn, even going out of his way to do so. And it's cheesing me off.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

What has blown my mind (if I'm assuming correctly, having a good idea of which schools start rotations when)...this guy is in your class.

If that was one of my classmates, and maybe it's different with a smaller class size, I would have backhanded him before I had the polite discussion...

I don't think they're in the same class. Regardless, I have seen students act like this. I just ignored them. All of the residents and attendings noticed the student acting like this, and I even had the director and extern director at the program I am attending tell me that they appreciated me not acting like this specific individual. I found it has worked best to just work hard, keep my mouth shut for the most part, and let the other student show their true colors. Residents and attendings notice that sort of stuff too.

I know what he said, but what other programs start elective externships in May now?

Originally Posted by RockyIV

We've had a student or two like this at our program. I wouldn't worry too much about running into kids like this too often. In my experience you get lazy/bad/unintelligent students more often then the person you described.

My advice, is basically to only follow the last paragraph of PADPM's post. That part was really well said. People will catch on to the smoke your co-extern is blowing. And if they don't then you should evaluate the quality of the program...somebody that dense probably shouldn't be teaching future DPMs.

As a resident I feel comfortable telling you not to act like this guy. You will be better off keeping your mouth shut and letting other kids make fools of themselves (that really applies to every rotation, not just this one).

If you read my comment again, you will read that I did not advocate "snarky" comments. I simply gave an example of how I handled a similar situation when I was much younger, and much more immature. I don't and never have taken crap from anyone, and at the time I didn't have the self control or maturity to do what I recommended in my first 2 sentences of my original post.

Originally Posted by PADPM

If you read my comment again, you will read that I did not advocate "snarky" comments. I simply gave an example of how I handled a similar situation when I was much younger, and much more immature. I don't and never have taken crap from anyone, and at the time I didn't have the self control or maturity to do what I recommended in my first 2 sentences of my original post.

Thanks for clarifying. I was confused by your story as well. It was a similar experience with a good outcome. Sort of seemed like you were insinuating that your experience was also an appropriate way to handle that situation before you qualified it in this latest post.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

I know what he said, but what other programs start elective externships in May now?

You can do it at Arizona. One of your 3rd year electives can be an externship. They would schedule it towards the end of the year (April or May). I know that there are students out on externships right now from Arizona, but the majority won't start until next month.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

Thanks for clarifying. I was confused by your story as well. It was a similar experience with a good outcome. Sort of seemed like you were insinuating that your experience was also an appropriate way to handle that situation before you qualified it in this latest post.

I concur. I was also confused as well. Hence why thought giving a snarky remark would be appropriate. Regardless, I feel this is a great thread. With all the talk we have received about externships at Scholl a situation like this has not been brought up and discussed. I'm glad and saddened to see that a situation like this could occur. At least I won't be blindsided if/ when this happens to me.

Originally Posted by Ankle Breaker

I concur. I was also confused as well. Hence why thought giving a snarky remark would be appropriate. Regardless, I feel this is a great thread. With all the talk we have received about externships at Scholl a situation like this has not been brought up and discussed. I'm glad and saddened to see that a situation like this could occur. At least I won't be blindsided if/ when this happens to me.

From what you've mentioned regarding your grades, I would think it would be more likely that you would be the gunner....

Originally Posted by bobdolerson

From what you've mentioned regarding your grades, I would think it would be more likely that you would be the gunner....

Just because one does well in school doesn't mean one automatically acts like a douche. Being a non-traditional student coming into podiatry school and holding down real jobs, I know a thing or two about how to properly act, even when you might not like certain co-workers. But that's nothing I really need to prove. I'll just automatically use those skills when I need to on externships. This is where my age and real life experience will be to my advantage.

You can also ask anyone from the Scholl class of 2014 who shares the most study guides or materials and most people would say me. I also recorded all the lectures this year and posted them on a mediafire share website so students could re-listen to them prior to the exam because our school is too cheap to do it for classes we don't take with the medical students.

In addition to all of that you can ask dtrack22 how much fun I like to have and how non-douchy I am. He was there watching me break out my ultra-white/ awful dance moves, in the middle of the Scholl dance circle, while partying at the club down in Miami for the pod basketball tournament.

For those reading this post, this is not an over-reaction to what bobdolerson tried to label me. It's more of a clarification post. Similar to what Air Bud did in the OCPM/Kent thread. Online personas don't necessarily match what kind of people we are in reality.

Originally Posted by Ankle Breaker

Just because one does well in school doesn't mean one automatically acts like a douche. Being a non-traditional student coming into podiatry school and holding down real jobs, I know a thing or two about how to properly act, even when you might not like certain co-workers. But that's nothing I really need to prove. I'll just automatically use those skills when I need to on externships. This is where my age and real life experience will be to my advantage.

You can also ask anyone from the Scholl class of 2014 who shares the most study guides or materials and most people would say me. I also recorded all the lectures this year and posted them on a mediafire share website so students could re-listen to them prior to the exam because our school is too cheap to do it for classes we don't take with the medical students.

In addition to all of that you can ask dtrack22 how much fun I like to have and how non-douchy I am. He was there watching me break out my ultra-white/ awful dance moves, in the middle of the Scholl dance circle, while partying at the club down in Miami for the pod basketball tournament.

For those reading this post, this is not an over-reaction to what bobdolerson tried to label me. It's more of a clarification post. Similar to what Air Bud did in the OCPM/Kent thread. Online personas don't necessarily match what kind of people we are in reality.

Soooo what you're saying is..... You're the nicest, most fun guy at scholl with sweet dancing and b-ball skills?

Originally Posted by Ankle Breaker

Just because one does well in school doesn't mean one automatically acts like a douche. Being a non-traditional student coming into podiatry school and holding down real jobs, I know a thing or two about how to properly act, even when you might not like certain co-workers. But that's nothing I really need to prove. I'll just automatically use those skills when I need to on externships. This is where my age and real life experience will be to my advantage.

You can also ask anyone from the Scholl class of 2014 who shares the most study guides or materials and most people would say me. I also recorded all the lectures this year and posted them on a mediafire share website so students could re-listen to them prior to the exam because our school is too cheap to do it for classes we don't take with the medical students.

In addition to all of that you can ask dtrack22 how much fun I like to have and how non-douchy I am. He was there watching me break out my ultra-white/ awful dance moves, in the middle of the Scholl dance circle, while partying at the club down in Miami for the pod basketball tournament.

For those reading this post, this is not an over-reaction to what bobdolerson tried to label me. It's more of a clarification post. Similar to what Air Bud did in the OCPM/Kent thread. Online personas don't necessarily match what kind of people we are in reality.

You misunderstand, I'm not saying you are that person, I'm saying I don't see what you would have to fear; hearing your grades has led me to believe you would be the person that "knows everything" as opposed to being the one that doesn't and gets busted for it.

Meant it as a compliment.

I wasn't sure how to take your original point either. I have been accused of similar things on here. And let me be the first to say that just because you have a high GPA does NOT mean you know "everything" in regards to being a 2nd or 3rd year student. I look back now as I get ready to start clerkships and wonder if I really learned anything at all.

I agree with the comments here.

Residents and attendings notice the things the students are doing/not doing. It's not hard to spot a douche. Any student that throws another student under the bus, especially around an attending, shows his true character by so doing. That's the type of student programs don't want, and if they do want that type of student, that's the program I don't want!!

I find it's much better when programs separate the students and have them following different attendings and residents or at different clinics/hospitals. Takes a lot of the competitiveness out and allows the students to really show who they are.

Hope the student wasn't from Western, we've been out on externships for a couple of months now.

Originally Posted by air bud

I wasn't sure how to take your original point either. I have been accused of similar things on here. And let me be the first to say that just because you have a high GPA does NOT mean you know "everything" in regards to being a 2nd or 3rd year student. I look back now as I get ready to start clerkships and wonder if I really learned anything at all.

I wholeheartedly agree with this point. After this year I'm no longer one of the top students in my class. P2 year was insane and now I'm studying for boards like crazy to catch up. So it's pretty clear I don't know everything. But to be honest I don't think the students, who have higher GPAs, are going to be better doctors than me. In terms of clinical knowledge and reasoning I feel everyone is on a similar playing field. That's entirely different ballgame.

To me GPA is a sign of how hard you worked, how good of a test taker you are, how good you are at memorizing stuff, and how lucky you are. It really is a combination of those 4 things. That doesn't necessarily breed awesome podiatrists. It's a good start but there is that whole clinical side of the formula we haven't factored in just yet.

EPILOGUE:

Today, during a case, the attending asked to have the lights adjusted. My over-achieving associate, naturally, was more than happy to comply. He grabbed the light by the handle and shined it on the operative site.

He wasn't scrubbed in.

And that, dear children, is how you torpedo an entire month's worth of kissing up in less than 2 seconds.

Success!

Game. Set. Match.

Originally Posted by Adam Smasher

This month, I've been rotating at a program out west and it's my first time interacting with an extern from another school. I'm not sure if it's because we're from different schools or if I'm rubbing him the wrong way or if he's just a bad apple, but he has been trying to one-up me at every turn, even going out of his way to do so. And it's cheesing me off.

For example, if a resident asks us to break down a pt's bandage while rounding, he will rush in front of me so he can do it--even if I happen to be standing squarely in front of the pt's bedside! Some of it is silly stuff too: If I happen to be standing behind an attending while he is gowning, my co-extern will physically place himself between us so he gets to tie the gown. What's annoying is that if I ask a well-thought out question to one of the residents or attendings, and the response is less than enthusiastic, my co-extern will not fail to have some condescending commentary for me, no matter how useless or irrelevant, as though the answer were perfectly obvious to him and I'm a blithering idiot for venturing forth to ask.

In the past, when working with my classmates, my philosophy has been that we're better off cooperating than competing. I help you, you help me, and we're both better off. If the residents then see that we can cooperate, we both look good. Besides, then 5-10 years in the future, we cross paths again, and we say "Oh yeah I remember him, he's really good to work with and a great Dr." Up until this month, I've had nothing but good experiences following that strategy.

What's happening here is that he's scoring points at my expense. I'm trying to be a professional and he's acting like a child. If I start bickering with him, it's going to be mutually destructive, so I'm not going to do that, as much as I'd like to take him down with me. I've basically written off this month, since I feel like he's hogged all the glory. With one week to go, it's fine by me if he wants to go on kissing everyones' butts (to use terms the moderators won't censor).

My question is how do you deal with a person like this? Is he going to succeed following this strategy? Is this what it takes to get a residency? I would expect it for MBA or JD students but not from us. Does it even make a difference who ties off the attending's gown? Am I wrong to prefer cooperation over competition?

I can't say this for sure because I haven't started rotations yet but in my opinion there is no way that this is a successful strategy to score "points" with residents and attendings.

If anything, this individual is fully demonstrating that he is a "brown-noser" and is actually losing "points." I could be wrong but this would definitely be somewhat of a red flag because it shows that you can't really work well with others and that you are only concerned about yourself and your reputation.

Originally Posted by Adam Smasher

EPILOGUE:

Today, during a case, the attending asked to have the lights adjusted. My over-achieving associate, naturally, was more than happy to comply. He grabbed the light by the handle and shined it on the operative site.

He wasn't scrubbed in.

And that, dear children, is how you torpedo an entire month's worth of kissing up in less than 2 seconds.

Balance has been restored by the gods

Originally Posted by Adam Smasher

EPILOGUE:

Today, during a case, the attending asked to have the lights adjusted. My over-achieving associate, naturally, was more than happy to comply. He grabbed the light by the handle and shined it on the operative site.

He wasn't scrubbed in.

And that, dear children, is how you torpedo an entire month's worth of kissing up in less than 2 seconds.

lol that is unbelievably awesome haha

Just adding my experience, I also did not see many of those kissups. Most students are normal and don't play dirty. There are a few total d-bags who do very well for themselves. We had one in our class who got a really good program, DESPITE the fact that the person did many of the things that you describe in your first post and is known to be the biggest tool in our class.

Don't fret: some turds sink to the bottom, and others float to the top, but eventually they all get flushed. Just keep working hard and treat other students respectfully and you will end up better off in the end.

Originally Posted by Ankle Breaker

In addition to all of that you can ask dtrack22 how much fun I like to have and how non-douchy I am. He was there watching me break out my ultra-white/ awful dance moves, in the middle of the Scholl dance circle, while partying at the club down in Miami for the pod basketball tournament.

If by awful you mean "awfully entertaining" then yes...I witnessed that. But I think this does speak to the fact that this is a small profession. A lot of the students on here know one another and talk outside of SDN. On top of that, students who have met each other on rotations talk...and residents from programs across the country talk...and directors...you get the idea.

My feeling is that being a jerk is likely to screw you over at other programs that you might end up visiting later as much as it could at the program you are currently at (with as tight knit as a lot of students and residents become). So don't be a tool bag to begin with and you'll be fine.