Length of schooling among professions

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Does it freak anyone else out that it takes us 4 years of medical school and then 3+ years of a grueling residency to be certified to practice...

But PA students who started a year after the current 3rd (going into 4th) year medical students are now finishing with school? And they aren't required to do any post-grad training..

And to make it worse, so many of them have a chip on their shoulder and want close to equal practice rights.

At first it makes me ....then it makes me ... then it makes me

Originally Posted by Dissected

Does it freak anyone else out that it takes us 4 years of medical school and then 3+ years of a grueling residency to be certified to practice...

But PA students who started a year after the current 3rd (going into 4th) year medical students are now finishing with school? And they aren't required to do any post-grad training..

And to make it worse, so many of them have a chip on their shoulder and want close to equal practice rights.

At first it makes me ....then it makes me ... then it makes me

don't be such a pu$$y. sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the first thing that popped into my mind. most PAs have no interest in autonomy and know their role. NPs different story. And to quote an attending over in the FM forums, if you think you can be replaced by a midlevel, then maybe you should be. HTFU and work hard. stop worrying.

Originally Posted by Dissected

Does it freak anyone else out that it takes us 4 years of medical school and then 3+ years of a grueling residency to be certified to practice...

But PA students who started a year after the current 3rd (going into 4th) year medical students are now finishing with school? And they aren't required to do any post-grad training..

And to make it worse, so many of them have a chip on their shoulder and want close to equal practice rights.

At first it makes me ....then it makes me ... then it makes me

And they're being offered great money too. The highest salary I've heard for a PA out of my school is $160,000 to work for a dermatologist.

wanna practice medicine and be a leader=become a physician

wanna still do basic procedures yet not be able to make independent decisions/prescribe meds=become a PA

NP, DNP's should be restricted to admin/research nursing posts

Originally Posted by donkeykong1

wanna practice medicine and be a leader=become a physician

wanna still do basic procedures yet not be able to make independent decisions/prescribe meds=become a PA

NP, DNP's should be restricted to admin/research nursing posts

you know pa's can prescribe in every state right? but they have to be 'supervised' by an md/do and every pa i know is perfectly happy with it

Originally Posted by tankgunner

you know pa's can prescribe in every state right? but they have to be 'supervised' by an md/do and every pa i know is perfectly happy with it

the word "independent" was stated. and quite frankly i don't care for your anecdote. who cares if they're happy with it or not. if one decided to become a pa, he/she should expect to not be able to prescribe meds independently.

Originally Posted by Dharma

don't be such a pu$$y. sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the first thing that popped into my mind. most PAs have no interest in autonomy and know their role. NPs different story. And to quote an attending over in the FM forums, if you think you can be replaced by a midlevel, then maybe you should be. HTFU and work hard. stop worrying.

HAHA settle down

I'm going into a field that could never be encroached upon by a PA or any midlevel. That is the least of my worries. If anything they will make my life easier if I choose to hire one.

I get pissed at the idea that they can make shyte tons of $$ compared to a primary care doc fresh out of residency and so many that I have run into have a 'higher than thou' attitude once they start practicing...when 2 short years ago I was TAing for their anatomy course and they didn't know jack squat. I guess most of the PA's/PA students I've run into lately have a bad attitude towards doctors..which is probably not representative of a lot of PA's but still..frustrates the hell out of me.

Originally Posted by Dissected

HAHA settle down

I'm going into a field that could never be encroached upon by a PA or any midlevel. That is the least of my worries. If anything they will make my life easier if I choose to hire one.

I get pissed at the idea that they can make shyte tons of $$ compared to a primary care doc fresh out of residency and so many that I have run into have a 'higher than thou' attitude once they start practicing...when 2 short years ago I was TAing for their anatomy course and they didn't know jack squat. I guess most of the PA's/PA students I've run into lately have a bad attitude towards doctors..which is probably not representative of a lot of PA's but still..frustrates the hell out of me.

Personally, I'm just getting a bit tired of the whole "Oh you're going to medical school? I'm going to become a (Nurse or PA) because I believe they actually care about the patient and make a real difference."

Originally Posted by Scotthoff

Personally, I'm just getting a bit tired of the whole "Oh you're going to medical school? I'm going to become a (Nurse or PA) because I believe they actually care about the patient and make a real difference."

Dude just brush that crap off your shoulder JayZ style. Most people don't realize the difference between nurse and physician education/role/etc. It became very clear for me once my wife was in nursing school and I in med school. Two TOTALLY different approaches emphasizing two TOTALLY different skill sets and knowledge bases. I don't think either is better and it's become obvious to me that both are very necessary but it's obvious that a nurse is not a physician (and, by the way, that a physician is not a nurse). They're better at their job than we are and we're better than them at ours.

Now if you ever feel the need to demonstrate the difference in your knowledge over a haughty/almighty nurse/nursing student, have a conversation about the basic physiology of fluid retention and a nursing student will look at you like this:

Originally Posted by Wolverines83

Dude just brush that crap off your shoulder JayZ style. Most people don't realize the difference between nurse and physician education/role/etc. It became very clear for me once my wife was in nursing school and I in med school. Two TOTALLY different approaches emphasizing two TOTALLY different skill sets and knowledge bases. I don't think either is better and it's become obvious to me that both are very necessary but it's obvious that a nurse is not a physician (and, by the way, that a physician is not a nurse). They're better at their job than we are and we're better than them at ours.

well they will try to convince the general public they are the same or better.

They now have "fellowships". Heres a lin:http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/reporte....html?ID=12364

and a thread talking abou it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=914669

They also have "fellowships" and "residencies" in derm and GI...so much for filling the primary care gap.

Always hire the PA and don't teach mid level nurses. They can teach themselves.

I graduated from one of the first DNP programs in the U.S. I was also accepted into 3 medical schools in Ohio (2 M.D. and one D.O. school) but withdrew before starting due to the length of time it would take. I now manage 300 patients, make close to $200k per year, but am still considered a "second class citizen" by most physicians.

My program required biochemistry (first year chem and organic were pre-reqs.). My program was very hard and yes painful at times. But with the physician shortage, times are changing, and my earlier regrets have now changed to feelings I made the right call.

Now that NPs can get DEA numbers, and can do virtually (in primary care only) everything that M.D.s can do, except admit patients; so long as you don't mind the resentment many physicians have against you...... it is a no brainer.... go the N.P. route, and save lots of time and $$! I have absolutely no regrets (now). I just hope that the DNP programs stick to the high standards they had when I was a student, and stop this "on-line" learning.

Originally Posted by Dr Oops

well they will try to convince the general public they are the same or better.

They now have "fellowships". Heres a lin:http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/reporte....html?ID=12364

and a thread talking abou it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=914669

They also have "fellowships" and "residencies" in derm and GI...so much for filling the primary care gap.

Always hire the PA and don't teach mid level nurses. They can teach themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration. But it's not apples to apples. Them claiming a residency is equal to ours is like someone showing up with ten yuan and trying to say they have ten dollars. Uh, no you don't, you have ten yuan, aka $1.50. Just remember to educate people on that when the topic is brought up.

My take on it is this:

1) I don't think either pathway is superior...at all. I have a lot of respect for the care that nurses give and the training they receive in taking care of patients. I think it's great and quite frankly, a lot of doctors can learn a lot from nurses in this regard.

2) That said, if a nurse says she can do anything I can do (which, in my opinion, is a direct challenge) I'll simply pimp her on basic physiology and watch her squirm like a grub on a hook. I'm not talking detail, I'm talking basic first year stuff. That might sound mean but if you want to claim you can do anything I can do, you shouldn't have a problem with physiology. It's a simple response to a challenge, that's all. I don't go around claiming I can do anything a nurse can. I'd probably barf at half the crap they deal with.

3) Who gives a @#$# ?

Originally Posted by Dissected

Does it freak anyone else out that it takes us 4 years of medical school and then 3+ years of a grueling residency to be certified to practice...

But PA students who started a year after the current 3rd (going into 4th) year medical students are now finishing with school? And they aren't required to do any post-grad training..

And to make it worse, so many of them have a chip on their shoulder and want close to equal practice rights.

At first it makes me ....then it makes me ... then it makes me

One has an unrestricted to license to practice medicine. That person can practice medicine where ever, when ever, and however he wants.

The other is required to have the first determine the what, when, and how of their practice.

How much is independence worth to you?

Originally Posted by Siggy

One has an unrestricted to license to practice medicine. That person can practice medicine where ever, when ever, and however he wants.

The other is required to have the first determine the what, when, and how of their practice.

How much is independence worth to you?

Siggy meet government.

If you think that you can practice medicine however you want, you will have an interesting transition to the real world. You're not in charge . Uncle Sam is in charge

Originally Posted by SnowyRox

Siggy meet government.

If you think that you can practice medicine however you want, you will have an interesting transition to the real world. You're not in charge . Uncle Sam is in charge

Cash only practice.

Technically speaking, in California a medical license "authorizes the holder to use drugs or devices in or upon human beings and to sever or penetrate the tissues of human beings and to use any and all other methods in the treatment of diseases, injuries, deformities, and other physical and mental conditions" (California Business and Professions code 2051). Granted, nothing requires a hospital or clinic to allow, say, a psychiatrist to do a liver transplant, but it's not illegal. Of course the catch, in addition to hospital privileges, is reimbursement and any liability that occurs when the psychiatrist botches the surgery.

Physicians should definitely stay in their wheelhouse in terms of expertise, but individual physicians control their own scope of practice much more than individual mid-levels.

Originally Posted by Bearcat74

I graduated from one of the first DNP programs in the U.S. I was also accepted into 3 medical schools in Ohio (2 M.D. and one D.O. school) but withdrew before starting due to the length of time it would take. I now manage 300 patients, make close to $200k per year, but am still considered a "second class citizen" by most physicians.

My program required biochemistry (first year chem and organic were pre-reqs.). My program was very hard and yes painful at times. But with the physician shortage, times are changing, and my earlier regrets have now changed to feelings I made the right call.

Now that NPs can get DEA numbers, and can do virtually (in primary care only) everything that M.D.s can do, except admit patients; so long as you don't mind the resentment many physicians have against you...... it is a no brainer.... go the N.P. route, and save lots of time and $$! I have absolutely no regrets (now). I just hope that the DNP programs stick to the high standards they had when I was a student, and stop this "on-line" learning.

NPs are more similar to this cat than they know.


(yes. I am being ridiculously simplistic and reductionist with this comment. Yes its mean. I have to be civil far too often, I want to be mean just this once. Its still accurate in the narrow window it addresses, I would think. TTDR: you have no idea how much you don't know about complex treatment despite near ful lcompetency at simple treatment, have fun killing people is the catch phrase we use to dismiss it)

Originally Posted by Wolverines83

Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration. But it's not apples to apples. Them claiming a residency is equal to ours is like someone showing up with ten yuan and trying to say they have ten dollars. Uh, no you don't, you have ten yuan, aka $1.50. Just remember to educate people on that when the topic is brought up.

My take on it is this:

1) I don't think either pathway is superior...at all. I have a lot of respect for the care that nurses give and the training they receive in taking care of patients. I think it's great and quite frankly, a lot of doctors can learn a lot from nurses in this regard.

2) That said, if a nurse says she can do anything I can do (which, in my opinion, is a direct challenge) I'll simply pimp her on basic physiology and watch her squirm like a grub on a hook. I'm not talking detail, I'm talking basic first year stuff. That might sound mean but if you want to claim you can do anything I can do, you shouldn't have a problem with physiology. It's a simple response to a challenge, that's all. I don't go around claiming I can do anything a nurse can. I'd probably barf at half the crap they deal with.

3) Who gives a @#$# ?

I agree with you completely Its like comparing apples to grapes

The problem is that When you talk to patients and lay people, they dont know that. They hear the buzz words: Board certified residency trained...followed by the word nurse....well actually doctor now.

Thats right they have their paltry 500-1000 hour residency. Theyre not regulated by boards of medicine so they can make their own boards. They can legally claim themselves as board certified residency trained doctors! Its shameless line blurring.

I even have trouble spotting the docs from the nurses, every one wears white coats now (especially the administrative nurses who go no where near patients). I **** you not, I once saw a guy in a white coat carrying a ladder around the hospital.

If people who are in medicine cant tell whose who, theres no way in hell patients will be able to.

Originally Posted by Dr Oops

I agree with you completely Its like comparing apples to grapes

The problem is that When you talk to patients and lay people, they dont know that. They hear the buzz words: Board certified residency trained...followed by the word nurse....well actually doctor now.

Thats right they have their paltry 500-1000 hour residency. Theyre not regulated by boards of medicine so they can make their own boards. They can legally claim themselves as board certified residency trained doctors! Its shameless line blurring.

I even have trouble spotting the docs from the nurses, every one wears white coats now (especially the administrative nurses who go no where near patients). I **** you not, I once saw a guy in a white coat carrying a ladder around the hospital.

If people who are in medicine cant tell whose who, theres no way in hell patients will be able to.

Those are the hardest to spot, especially if they're guys. They're older, they wear the suit, they have the white coat. You have to literally read their name badge to really know.

My community based practice did a pt survey. Over 550 pts responded. Guess what, the highest positive patient satisfaction ratings were me and the other NP. The 2 MDs, and 1 DO came in significantly behind us both. Any more questions?

Originally Posted by Bearcat74

My community based practice did a pt survey. Over 550 pts responded. Guess what, the highest positive patient satisfaction ratings were me and the other NP. The 2 MDs, and 1 DO came in significantly behind us both. Any more questions?

guys ! please resist the temptation....

Originally Posted by Bearcat74

My community based practice did a pt survey. Over 550 pts responded. Guess what, the highest positive patient satisfaction ratings were me and the other NP. The 2 MDs, and 1 DO came in significantly behind us both. Any more questions?

Originally Posted by Bearcat74

My community based practice did a pt survey. Over 550 pts responded. Guess what, the highest positive patient satisfaction ratings were me and the other NP. The 2 MDs, and 1 DO came in significantly behind us both. Any more questions?

Now THAT sounds like a landmark study . No..I do not have any more questions that I want answered by you

DocEsp..nice pic, lol

That is nothing compared to this ND practice survey: Over 55000 pts responded. The highest positive patient satisfaction ratings were NDs. Nothing for PA, NP, MD, DO, JD, OD, PharmD, DPM, MBA, CPA.

This thread has turned into a flame war amongst various professions and no longer serves the interest of the osteopathic forum.

Closing.