Corporate Dentistry $$?

SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)

Hey guys I know their are some older threads on this topic but they seem to be outdated. I looking to see how much money a new grad working for a large corporation makes in a bigger city like Chicago/NY/LA etc.

Some of the older threads say that students make well over 100k starting working for these places. Is that true?

Originally Posted by pmarank

Hey guys I know their are some older threads on this topic but they seem to be outdated. I looking to see how much money a new grad working for a large corporation makes in a bigger city like Chicago/NY/LA etc.

Some of the older threads say that students make well over 100k starting working for these places. Is that true?

According to the Aspen Dental pamphlet associate dentists make between $130k and $150k starting. Seems high to me but that's what they quote. I'd be curious to know what they actually make too.

It's all about production, production, production. A few of the corporate chains have come to talk to our school & the representatives quote around 120k right out of school. But you better believe you're gonna work your butt off to make that or even more.

Originally Posted by SxyDentalDiva

It's all about production, production, production. A few of the corporate chains have come to talk to our school & the representatives quote around 120k right out of school. But you better believe you're gonna work your butt off to make that or even more.

So I guess the over 100k value is true. What does work hard mean exactly? 50+ 60+ or 70+ hours?

Originally Posted by pmarank

So I guess the over 100k value is true. What does work hard mean exactly? 50+ 60+ or 70+ hours?

Ya I think 6 10 hour days is fairly common at aspen and pacific

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

Ya I think 6 10 hour days is fairly common at aspen and pacific

Talk about burnout. I'd take less money and more QOL.

Hup

Originally Posted by HupHolland

Talk about burnout. I'd take less money and more QOL.

Hup

Well there's a reason they have such a crazy turn over rate

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

Ya I think 6 10 hour days is fairly common at aspen and pacific

But since this is right out of dental school isn't this comparable to being a med student in residency? Isn't making 120k working 60hrs a week a much better alternative to being a resident?

I also think it's interesting how people on the dental forum find the idea of 60 hour work weeks to be ridiculous while MDs/DOs on the other forum don't seem to mind. Are dentists pretty much guaranteed a better lifestyle if they choose to pursue a balanced life?

Originally Posted by pmarank

I also think it's interesting how people on the dental forum find the idea of 60 hour work weeks to be ridiculous while MDs/DOs on the other forum don't seem to mind. Are dentists pretty much guaranteed a better lifestyle if they choose to pursue a balanced life?

It's a matter of choice. MD/DOs often, depending on their specialty, don't have a choice of not working long hours. Dentists do. Of course, the fewer hours you work, the more hours you have to flit away your money and save less for your future...

Everyone always asks me why I chose dentistry over medicine...I tell all of them because it's EASIER money...not more...but easier

The average dentist works less than 40 hours a week...compare that to the average physician

A lot of us went into dentistry because it's a relaxed lifestyle, so yes it isn't easy for us to swallow a 60 hour work week

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

Ya I think 6 10 hour days is fairly common at aspen and pacific

This is not true. I'm a former Aspen associate dentist.

$130-140k starting salary is common for new grads who work under the supervision of lead dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$160K-$230k as an MCD (lead dentist) if you work as the solo dentist at the office. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$500K+ as an office partner dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month. To join this club, you sign for life (a no walk-away deal).

Aspen is a great company, but not for dentists who understand how the system works.

Cold Front, how much of the starting salary did you take home after taxes, lab bills, fees, etc? This is before any type of loan repayment.

prediction: cold front used his time at Aspen as recon prior to opening his (now) two practices. he will build them up to respectable, solid, and profitable levels then turn around and sell both (or more) of them to Aspen for a fat stack.







*what i would do...

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

Everyone always asks me why I chose dentistry over medicine...I tell all of them because it's EASIER money...not more...but easier

The average dentist works less than 40 hours a week...compare that to the average physician

A lot of us went into dentistry because it's a relaxed lifestyle, so yes it isn't easy for us to swallow a 60 hour work week

This is one of the major reasons that I want to go into dentistry as well. The major downside I see to dentistry is that it is difficult to make money if you want to live near a big city like Chicago. Do these large dental corporations hire as much/pay as well if you want to live in a location like this? I am personally from the suburbs outside of Chicago and its crazy how many dentists we have here. There are literally like 5 dental practices on a single street that is less than a mile long. How can these guys be profitable if I have the ability to choose between 10 dentists within 5 mins of my house? I understand that they probably all are not general dentists but still...?

Originally Posted by Cold Front

This is not true. I'm a former Aspen associate dentist.

$130-140k starting salary is common for new grads who work under the supervision of lead dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$160K-$230k as an MCD (lead dentist) if you work as the solo dentist at the office. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$500K+ as an office partner dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month. To join this club, you sign for life (a no walk-away deal).

Aspen is a great company, but not for dentists who understand how the system works.

I don't understand why so many people in the dental community complain about these large corporations. 40 hours a week making 140k right out of dental school seems like an amazing gig. Ppl on these forums also seem to suggest that these corporations work you like a dog but 40 hours isn't bad... Right?

People complain about these corporations because of the business model...it's all about production. Many dentists have said that the business model is unethical...strongly encouraging procedures to perform on patients that the patient may or may not really need depending on the clinical situation.

There are many, many posts about it...just look them up.

i was almost sure that my friend at Aspen said they worked 8-5:30 five days a week plus 2 saturdays a month

maybe they were doing something wrong

but you're saying it's closer to 45ish hours a week for 140k? that's pretty good

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/06/0...0000-per-year/

Would you rather be a lawyer making this huge amount?

Originally Posted by SxyDentalDiva

Cold Front, how much of the starting salary did you take home after taxes, lab bills, fees, etc? This is before any type of loan repayment.

For some reason, my direct loans payments did not kick in until about 18 months after I graduated. I think they messed my repayment start date, which I didn't complain about.

I worked for Aspen about 6 months while my practice was being built. I was taking home about 70-75% of what I was making initially. I think I made about $5k of bonuses, which was taxed less on a separate checks.

I was not responsible for lab bills or any office fees. I was paid on daily rate, so even if I worked half day I was paid full day rate.

For me, Aspen was like a BIG CE Course in how to run an office. I went to work every day learning the business side of the office. I use to take the office manager out for lunch almost every other day, and asked her literally anything I wanted to know about the office. She did not like working there either, matter of fact she is no longer with the company. She even gave me tips about my new office while I was still with Aspen. I wanted to offer her a position at my office, but the commute was too far for her.

The Aspen office was pulling $200-250k a month; with 1 senior dentist, 1 new grad (me), oral surgeon, and this well experienced cougar hygienist. 2 GPs brought in about $100-120k, hygienist about $30k, $60-70k from Oral Surgeon (who worked only 2 days of the month). Oral Surgeon took 50% of his production.

Anyways, I don't want to spill more beans about Aspen, but they are a good place start if you want to learn the business side of dentistry on the fast lane.

Also the other main thing that I find intimidating about dentistry is that you pretty much have to open your own practice to live the lifestyle. What if your practice isn't successful? Are you just screwed? Is it likely to be successful in dentistry for a while (like 10 years out of Dental School) without opening up your own practice?

Having to run your own business seems like a huge burden that MD/DOs do not have to deal with. And there is also the issue of having to move to an ideal location to open up a practice.

I just can't make up my mind!! Might as well spin a bottle and see if it lands on physician or dentist lol

Originally Posted by Ferneezy

prediction: cold front used his time at Aspen as recon prior to opening his (now) two practices. he will build them up to respectable, solid, and profitable levels then turn around and sell both (or more) of them to Aspen for a fat stack.







*what i would do...

Better prediction. Aspen is heading to IPO status in 2 years. But little do they know that's what will bring an end to their venture.

Originally Posted by pmarank

I don't understand why so many people in the dental community complain about these large corporations. 40 hours a week making 140k right out of dental school seems like an amazing gig. Ppl on these forums also seem to suggest that these corporations work you like a dog but 40 hours isn't bad... Right?

New grads are a fixed cost to these large corporations. On average, they profit $500k a year from each new grad. The longer new grad stays, the faster they get, the more procedures they can do, the higher the production. The little guy is still stuck at $140k a year.

New grads maybe very happy initially with this deal, but will eventually realize they can do well somewhere else, but corporations have another new new-grad dying to get the position for the same deal, if not less. Meanwhile, fees are going up every year, and the new new-grad is bringing in profits close to $600k.

The cycle never ends, with more profits over time.

Originally Posted by Daurang

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/06/0...0000-per-year/

Would you rather be a lawyer making this huge amount?

At the rate they are opening new dental schools perhaps this is our future.

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

i was almost sure that my friend at Aspen said they worked 8-5:30 five days a week plus 2 saturdays a month

maybe they were doing something wrong

but you're saying it's closer to 45ish hours a week for 140k? that's pretty good

Aspen has about 300 offices. They all have the same business hours (last time I checked).

Originally Posted by Cold Front

This is not true. I'm a former Aspen associate dentist.

$130-140k starting salary is common for new grads who work under the supervision of lead dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$160K-$230k as an MCD (lead dentist) if you work as the solo dentist at the office. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$500K+ as an office partner dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month. To join this club, you sign for life (a no walk-away deal).

Aspen is a great company, but not for dentists who understand how the system works.

Hey do you mean 500K as in you buy into the practice or does it work like you buy a franchise?

The quotes i've seen around here are around 90K-120K. It depends on if you pay for you lab work, hours, and production. 160-230K would be amazing if you didn't have to pay for any of the overhead.

On the Aspen Dental website they list $750,000+ as the salary for an OMFS, then directly below this they site the US Bureau of Labor Statistics as being roughly $210,000 on avg for an OMFS. What do you all think about this? Why would an OMFS for Aspen Dental make so much more than the average?

Originally Posted by theleatherwalle

Hey do you mean 500K as in you buy into the practice or does it work like you buy a franchise?

The quotes i've seen around here are around 90K-120K. It depends on if you pay for you lab work, hours, and production. 160-230K would be amazing if you didn't have to pay for any of the overhead.

The Aspen PPO program is limited to lead dentists who have track record on producing good figures for the company. It use to be by invitation only, but now aspen is asking their lead dentists to join the club.

Typically, you would pay $250-300k for 1 office partnership. In return, you share monthly profits with the company, 50:50. Aspen does all the business aspects of the office, the partner dentist just worries about hitting Aspen set production goals, which are typically high. A dentist can be a PPO partner for more than 1 office, but the additional office will require associate(s), and their paychecks will come out of the PPO dentist's 50% profit of the office with the associate. So the profit gain from 1st to 2nd office is not the same. There are dentists who have 7 aspen offices, pulling 7 figure numbers easily.

The PPO deal is irreversible for the dentist, meaning he or she is legally binded to never walk away from the company, otherwise the dentist will lose 100% of his/her initial investment. However, if the dentist is not meeting Aspen expectations, they can kick the dentist out of the program.

Again, every aspen office is different, and the relationship between dentist and the company could slightly vary. The basic business model still applies.

Originally Posted by R1Guy

On the Aspen Dental website they list $750,000+ as the salary for an OMFS, then directly below this they site the US Bureau of Labor Statistics as being roughly $210,000 on avg for an OMFS. What do you all think about this? Why would an OMFS for Aspen Dental make so much more than the average?

The oral surgeon I use to work with at aspen was super hard worker and smart. He use to rotate between 10 or more aspen offices in different cities. He was producing $30-40k a month for each office, 50% of those figures were his take home. He was probably making $200-250k a month take home, that's about a cool $3M a year. All the managers knew how much he was making, in turn everyone with the company did too.

He was in the top 3 highest producing OS guys for the company. I think the top guy makes close to $5M a year.

Originally Posted by Cold Front

The oral surgeon I use to work with at aspen was super hard worker and smart. He use to rotate between 10 or more aspen offices in different cities. He was producing $30-40k a month for each office, 50% of those figures were his take home. He was probably making $200-250k a month take home, that's about a cool $3M a year. All the managers knew how much he was making, in turn everyone with the company did too.

He was in the top 3 highest producing OS guys for the company. I think the top guy makes close to $5M a year.

That's a ridiculous eye-popping amount of money! I have a feeling the insurance corporate bean counters or medicaid won't be let too much profit go on too long?

Originally Posted by Cold Front

The oral surgeon I use to work with at aspen was super hard worker and smart. He use to rotate between 10 or more aspen offices in different cities. He was producing $30-40k a month for each office, 50% of those figures were his take home. He was probably making $200-250k a month take home, that's about a cool $3M a year. All the managers knew how much he was making, in turn everyone with the company did too.

He was in the top 3 highest producing OS guys for the company. I think the top guy makes close to $5M a year.

if i were on a more traditional track i would burn most of my post-residency 30s doing what he did for that level of income (provided i enjoyed it that much).

sounds like he leveraged the Aspen system to maximize his personal benefit.

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

i was almost sure that my friend at Aspen said they worked 8-5:30 five days a week plus 2 saturdays a month

maybe they were doing something wrong

but you're saying it's closer to 45ish hours a week for 140k? that's pretty good

45 hours of dentistry is completely different than 45 hours of sitting in a cubicle.
The problem with these corporations is that you never build any equity. You could open your own office make 50K the first 10 years out, but then start making real money have owned something. When you decide to retire, you can hire an associate and keep collecting checks. My uncle calls it mailbox pimping. You can't do that working for a corporation. When you stop working, the checks stop.

Originally Posted by Cold Front

This is not true. I'm a former Aspen associate dentist.

$130-140k starting salary is common for new grads who work under the supervision of lead dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$160K-$230k as an MCD (lead dentist) if you work as the solo dentist at the office. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month.

$500K+ as an office partner dentist. Typical hours = 40 plus 1 or 2 Saturdays a month. To join this club, you sign for life (a no walk-away deal).

Aspen is a great company, but not for dentists who understand how the system works.

Really? Is that enforceable? Would people really sign up for that?

Edit: Never mind, read the rest of the thread. Got it.

Originally Posted by Daurang

That's a ridiculous eye-popping amount of money! I have a feeling the insurance corporate bean counters or medicaid won't be let too much profit go on too long?

My guess it was more of a situation where that OS had Aspen where he wanted them in that he had the specialty services that they needed for their patients, in areas where Aspen was unable to get other OS's to work.

And if you had 10 Aspen offices acting as a referral network for 1 OS, I could totally see an OS producing those types of figures given the volume of extraction patients that a typical Aspen practice has. Tack on the anesthesia fees to likely a very high percentage of the cases that the OS was doing and that has the potential to be a serious amount of steady cashflow being generated

Nvm

Aspen sounds like a good deal if you set up a profitable shop.

I just have a hard time believing it is that good. I have mainly heard negative things about it. I know people here call it the Wal-Mart of dentistry. You go there when you want a quick fix, but not when you are actually getting work done.

Although it saddens me that Dentistry is being taken over by corporate. I guess most dentists are still trucking along. These numbers are still really good considering you don't have to take a loan out on the business or pay your staff or do any lab work.

Do you get any say in hiring?

Also are there set rules? Like you can only refer to the Aspen orthodontist, and you cannot refer out?

Originally Posted by Cold Front

The Aspen PPO program is limited to lead dentists who have track record on producing good figures for the company. It use to be by invitation only, but now aspen is asking their lead dentists to join the club.

Typically, you would pay $250-300k for 1 office partnership. In return, you share monthly profits with the company, 50:50. Aspen does all the business aspects of the office, the partner dentist just worries about hitting Aspen set production goals, which are typically high. A dentist can be a PPO partner for more than 1 office, but the additional office will require associate(s), and their paychecks will come out of the PPO dentist's 50% profit of the office with the associate. So the profit gain from 1st to 2nd office is not the same. There are dentists who have 7 aspen offices, pulling 7 figure numbers easily.

The PPO deal is irreversible for the dentist, meaning he or she is legally binded to never walk away from the company, otherwise the dentist will lose 100% of his/her initial investment. However, if the dentist is not meeting Aspen expectations, they can kick the dentist out of the program.

Again, every aspen office is different, and the relationship between dentist and the company could slightly vary. The basic business model still applies.

So a partner dentist is NOT in charge of hiring dentists, right?? What if associates cannot meet the quota? Is it still the partner DDS fault and he/she loses a practice? How achievable the required goals are?
Can the partner DDS get to say in 'hiring a part time dentist' to meet the quota??


Hypothetically, if there were a law suit, what is the responsibility of Aspen? I've heard that at Western dental, they make associates sign the paper stating that Western is not responsible for any law suits but the dentists are....
I can't see any corporate playing fair and square with individuals.

Edit: contract for a life time is a brilliant business model. No matter how successful a practice is, it is not likely the practice will meet the quota for (let's say) 25 consecutive years. If a partner DDS fails, just kick him/her out. Take over the practice and hire associates. More profits and for ASPEN, it cost barely nothing to set that practice up. Just be patient til he/she f**ks up. just brilliant

I guess the million dollar question for a partner DDS is that how much more profits this ASPEN needs to generate than a private practice in order to sign the dotted line considering all the risks of losing it and law suits.

Okay texted my friend...he's somewhere in central Illinois at aspen

Says they work 9-6 four days a week (m,tu,wed, f)
11-8 on Thursday
And 1-2 Saturdays a month from 9-3

So that comes out to close to 50 hours a week on average

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

Okay texted my friend...he's somewhere in central Illinois at aspen

Says they work 9-6 four days a week (m,tu,wed, f)
11-8 on Thursday
And 1-2 Saturdays a month from 9-3

So that comes out to close to 50 hours a week on average

11-8? That really sucks....

I'd rather be in pharmacy if thats what Aspens hours are really like...

Corporate Dentistry really scares me sometimes.

Originally Posted by Sublimazing

Okay texted my friend...he's somewhere in central Illinois at aspen

Says they work 9-6 four days a week (m,tu,wed, f)
11-8 on Thursday
And 1-2 Saturdays a month from 9-3

So that comes out to close to 50 hours a week on average

Most weeks are 40 hours, but if you work a Saturday week, then it's 46 hours. So maximum you will work in a week is 46 hours, which is once a month.

Originally Posted by Ferneezy

if i were on a more traditional track i would burn most of my post-residency 30s doing what he did for that level of income (provided i enjoyed it that much).

sounds like he leveraged the Aspen system to maximize his personal benefit.

Keep in mind. Even the guy who makes $5M a year from aspen is considered an employee, which means aspen has full control over your taxes, just as it does on the assistant who makes $9/hr at aspen. While the owners of Aspen probably pay less tax than the Assistant.

In 2010, aspen's total offices revenue was half a billion dollars, with profits of $200-250 billion. What does aspen do with that money? Open 1 office a week, or uncle same will take that money as tax. Aspen is also a sponsor of NASCAR. Aspen lured the owners of DELL computers to invest in the company, Aspen probably has investors you wouldn't think would co-own the company.

Originally Posted by TheClutch

So a partner dentist is NOT in charge of hiring dentists, right?? What if associates cannot meet the quota? Is it still the partner DDS fault and he/she loses a practice? How achievable the required goals are?
Can the partner DDS get to say in 'hiring a part time dentist' to meet the quota??

Partner dentist is involved in the hiring process of dentists, managers, assistants, lab techs, etc.

Associate dentist makes 20% profit sharing based on total profit for the office a month, but it comes out of the partner dentist's 50% pocket a month. If associate doesn't meet goal, he/she will make daily minimum of $600 a day at a typical office. So the associate usually tries to maximize their 20% incentive, plus managers are incentivized for maximizing production on the associate's schedule. The whole system is incentivized, from regional manager who overlooks multiple aspen offices to the assistant who works for her $150 a month bonus if the office hits goal.

Hey Cold,

what's your background? Are you majored/minored in business in college, worked in the field before attending a dental school, your family runs a business, or you self-taught stuffs?

What is the hiring process like at Aspen? What do they look for and how hard is it for a recent grad to get a job there?

Originally Posted by TheClutch

Hey Cold,

what's your background? Are you majored/minored in business in college, worked in the field before attending a dental school, your family runs a business, or you self-taught stuffs?

Mostly self-taught, but I also worked in a family small business before I went to dental school too.

It was during school that one of my classmates, who was also one of my roommates talked to me the business side of dentistry a lot, but he himself did not want to jump into private practice right away after graduation. But he certainly was one of the first people who taught me how to have financial discipline and maximize self-potential. We constantly debated best thing to do when we graduated in terms of the shortest path to financial independence and early retirement. We both knew military scholarships, and other loan forgiveness paths were out of the question. So we talked a lot about how to be a successful solo practitioner. It was he who gave me the idea on what to name my practice.

During school, I read a lot of books and joined online forums on how to work on personal finance, something that is not taught in school. For example, when I started school, I had a very low fico credit score (500's), and worked on building my credit profile during school, which I knew was critical to applying for business loan when I graduate. When I finished school, my fico score was in the high 700s, which showed the bank that I knew how to manage credit, plus making the case on why they should have my business by writing a 40 page report.

I also met other people on the way through my business who were the best in their fields; commercial real estate agents, dental suppliers, marketing companies, and of course associating for Aspen Dental was a place to test things I wanted to do in my practice for free. They furthered my vision more than anyone else. I also read a lot of DentalTown forums on everything, there are very smart people on that website. There were also people on these forums who provided priceless info when I was building my first office from scratch. My accountant taught me a lot about taxes, retirement plans, etc. Some of my patients are professionals too; one of them is a Chase executive manager, and he helped get good deals on a property I bought last year.

All in all, it's a continuous learning process by meeting the right people and researching the right information, and using everything to help your vision grow. I met a lot of skepticism from dentists and friends when I opened my practice, now they don't say the same thing about my 2nd practice venture.

That's great! thanks for sharing with us. really appreciate your experience, advice and lessons.
When you mentioned up there about having lunch every other day with an ASPEN manager, I knew you are exceptional. I know Than Merill, multimillionaire, has lunch with this guy (who used to be filthy rich till his business failed) and pays him $2000 every lunch to hear about why his business failed. No wonder why you've achieved so much.

I actually have a million dollar question for you. Nowadays dental schools are so expensive. My school is only $342k, but by the time I graduate, it will be 399k. And my school is one of those cheaper schools (for OOS and private schools). Can't even imagine how much it will be for those attending "100k per year" schools. Having so much debt really hinders anyone's ability to buy a practice. I think that everyone tries to figure out how to knock off the debt as much as possible in the fastest way.

How much was your loan when you graduated? How long did you work at the corporate and what percent of your total debt was paid off when you left the corporate?
When you open up your start-up, how big was your student and practice loan? (If it was sizeable, what convinced you to take calculated risks?)

Originally Posted by TheClutch

That's great! thanks for sharing with us. really appreciate your experience, advice and lessons.
When you mentioned up there about having lunch every other day with an ASPEN manager, I knew you are exceptional. I know Than Merill, multimillionaire, has lunch with this guy (who used to be filthy rich till his business failed) and pays him $2000 every lunch to hear about why his business failed. No wonder why you've achieved so much.

I actually have a million dollar question for you. Nowadays dental schools are so expensive. My school is only $342k, but by the time I graduate, it will be 399k. And my school is one of those cheaper schools (for OOS and private schools). Can't even imagine how much it will be for those attending "100k per year" schools. Having so much debt really hinders anyone's ability to buy a practice. I think that everyone tries to figure out how to knock off the debt as much as possible in the fastest way.

How much was your loan when you graduated? How long did you work at the corporate and what percent of your total debt was paid off when you left the corporate?
When you open up your start-up, how big was your student and practice loan? (If it was sizeable, what convinced you to take calculated risks?)

I believe that the current school loan market is heading for disaster at this current rate, where the cost of education has become completely disassociated from the value that the education provided. This is particularly true for dental school.

I read somewhere that if a child is born today, and if that child ends up going to Harvard, he or she is expected to pay $600k of tuition for a 4 years program. What if that child wants to go dental school after undergrad?

The average debt for my graduating class couple of years ago was $200-250k. This is considered astronomical in today's cost of education, but the # of applicants (the demand) is mostly what created that number, please fewer doctors (the supply) willing to teach those students at dental schools. Even state schools are getting less funds from their state to keep the cost down.

For private practice loans, the banks are willing to lend not based on how much debt you have, but the ability to pay you billis if you open a practice, which studies show 99% of solo practitioners can. So you will not have a problem getting loans, but the idea of being debt free is unlikely in the short term, specially if you buy a home, a car, have family with children, etc. Unless you take calculated risks and have a sound business model for your own private practice or more.

Originally Posted by theleatherwalle

Aspen sounds like a good deal if you set up a profitable shop.

I just have a hard time believing it is that good. I have mainly heard negative things about it. I know people here call it the Wal-Mart of dentistry. You go there when you want a quick fix, but not when you are actually getting work done.

Although it saddens me that Dentistry is being taken over by corporate. I guess most dentists are still trucking along. These numbers are still really good considering you don't have to take a loan out on the business or pay your staff or do any lab work.

Do you get any say in hiring?

Also are there set rules? Like you can only refer to the Aspen orthodontist, and you cannot refer out?

My business partner and another colleague of ours, both of whom are starting to do some intro thinking about retirement in the next 5 to 10 years, met with an Aspen rep with the possible idea of opening up an Aspen practice in Florida. They were flat out told that Aspen has a targeted goal that every new patient who walks through the door will walky out with a treatment plan of ATLEAST $3,000. That treatment plan may be comprised of everything from actual perio treatment (lots of 4 quadrant scaling treatment plans that I have seen in my own office for a 2nd opinion with generalized 2-4mm pockets, essentially no bleeding on probing, and plenty of pink, stipled gingiva) and various oral hygiene aids to restorative, oral surgery, etc. That adult patient that has a say a stained OL groove on #3, that has probably been there for 15 years, looking exactly the same and with inactive caries that isn't detectable on a radiograph, you know the type of lesion that when you see a patient for the 1st time, most of us will clinically choose to re-evaluate it at the patient's next cleaning visit to see if it needs to be restored, those types of lesions are essentially an automatic part of the patient's treatment plan at that 1st visit.

From what i've personally seen, both clinically and via 2nd opinion requests from patients, as well as via discussions with multiple collaegues about the generalized topic of corporate dentistry. Is all the work and actions of corporate dentistry questionable? Absoluetly not. Do they tend to do things/treatment plan things that one could argue are in that "gray area" at a higher frequency than most dentists would? I certainly feel that way. Then again, i'm sure that if you put 10 different dentists in a room and had them treatment plan the same patient, that at best you'd get 6 or 7 different treatment plans, realistically 8 or 9 different plans, and atleast 10% of the time, 10 different treatment plans!

Originally Posted by DrJeff

My business partner and another colleague of ours, both of whom are starting to do some intro thinking about retirement in the next 5 to 10 years, met with an Aspen rep with the possible idea of opening up an Aspen practice in Florida. They were flat out told that Aspen has a targeted goal that every new patient who walks through the door will walky out with a treatment plan of ATLEAST $3,000. That treatment plan may be comprised of everything from actual perio treatment (lots of 4 quadrant scaling treatment plans that I have seen in my own office for a 2nd opinion with generalized 2-4mm pockets, essentially no bleeding on probing, and plenty of pink, stipled gingiva) and various oral hygiene aids to restorative, oral surgery, etc. That adult patient that has a say a stained OL groove on #3, that has probably been there for 15 years, looking exactly the same and with inactive caries that isn't detectable on a radiograph, you know the type of lesion that when you see a patient for the 1st time, most of us will clinically choose to re-evaluate it at the patient's next cleaning visit to see if it needs to be restored, those types of lesions are essentially an automatic part of the patient's treatment plan at that 1st visit.

From what i've personally seen, both clinically and via 2nd opinion requests from patients, as well as via discussions with multiple collaegues about the generalized topic of corporate dentistry. Is all the work and actions of corporate dentistry questionable? Absoluetly not. Do they tend to do things/treatment plan things that one could argue are in that "gray area" at a higher frequency than most dentists would? I certainly feel that way. Then again, i'm sure that if you put 10 different dentists in a room and had them treatment plan the same patient, that at best you'd get 6 or 7 different treatment plans, realistically 8 or 9 different plans, and atleast 10% of the time, 10 different treatment plans!

Just search "Aspen Reviews" on google. Most of them are rated 1 star out of 5, at least in my neck of the woods. Here is an example of an Aspen in another state: http://www.yelp.com/biz/aspen-dental-woburn

Patient feedback tells the whole story.