MD 3.2 GPA, 29MCAT: Chances at SGU and Anesthesiology?

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Hi! I would really appreciate some honest advice about my situation and what I should do to make myself a more competitive candidate.
I have basically decided that I would like to become a practicing anesthesiologist, and now I just need to get to the accomplishment of that goal!
I graduated from Brown University in 2010 with a degree in Neuroscience, and since this time I have had a variety of jobs! Basically, what I have learned is that I want to go to medical school. I studied as a premed and I ended up with a 3.2 GPA and 3.2 science GPA; however, I would have to admit that I was a bad student. I am currently studying for the MCAT and I am currently scoring about a 27, but I certainly think a score of 30+ is doable within the next couple of months.
I would like to know what my chances are/ what I should do to be able to get into SGU. I am not interested in DO schools, and I really would like to attend SGU over Ross or AUC. What MCAT score should I be aiming for to get into SGU? I got a 2290 on my SATs and so I realize that my performance on my MCAT will be all about how much effort I put into my studies. I have clinical research experience at UCLA, doctor shadowing, and volunteer experience.

However, I also have a confession - something that I really need advice on. In my second year of college I got caught texting during a test and ended up with a notation on my transcript about "Directed no credit ORGO2 for violation of the academic code". Yes, I understand how bad this is. However, I really am not a dishonest person, and I wasn't trying to cheat (that's why they just gave me "no credit"). My mistake was my bad attitude towards the teacher and TA (I ended up having to take the class at another school because of the tension between me and the teacher). I fully accept my responsibility and admit fault, and I have changed A LOT since that event. I just need some advice about how to tell this to SGU.
Do you think that I will have a chance at SGU with my stats (including the violation)? Any advice about what I should do?

Thank you everyone! This has been stressing me out considerably!

Originally Posted by trey57735

Hi! I would really appreciate some honest advice about my situation and what I should do to make myself a more competitive candidate.
I have basically decided that I would like to become a practicing anesthesiologist, and now I just need to get to the accomplishment of that goal!
I graduated from Brown University in 2010 with a degree in Neuroscience, and since this time I have had a variety of jobs! Basically, what I have learned is that I want to go to medical school. I studied as a premed and I ended up with a 3.2 GPA and 3.2 science GPA; however, I would have to admit that I was a bad student. I am currently studying for the MCAT and I am currently scoring about a 27, but I certainly think a score of 30+ is doable within the next couple of months.
I would like to know what my chances are/ what I should do to be able to get into SGU. I am not interested in DO schools, and I really would like to attend SGU over Ross or AUC. What MCAT score should I be aiming for to get into SGU? I got a 2290 on my SATs and so I realize that my performance on my MCAT will be all about how much effort I put into my studies. I have clinical research experience at UCLA, doctor shadowing, and volunteer experience.

However, I also have a confession - something that I really need advice on. In my second year of college I got caught texting during a test and ended up with a notation on my transcript about "Directed no credit ORGO2 for violation of the academic code". Yes, I understand how bad this is. However, I really am not a dishonest person, and I wasn't trying to cheat (that's why they just gave me "no credit"). My mistake was my bad attitude towards the teacher and TA (I ended up having to take the class at another school because of the tension between me and the teacher). I fully accept my responsibility and admit fault, and I have changed A LOT since that event. I just need some advice about how to tell this to SGU.
Do you think that I will have a chance at SGU with my stats (including the violation)? Any advice about what I should do?

Thank you everyone! This has been stressing me out considerably!

The SATs and the MCAT are two different beasts. Although I will say this - most people who were bad at critical reading on the SATs will be bad at the MCAT verbal. Again, this isn't always the case, but I'd say there's a pretty strong correlation. I don't know why you're aiming for a 29. You should be aiming higher with that GPA. You're obviously a smart student (2290, Brown, research at UCLA) and I think you're selling yourself short if you settle for AUC or Ross. You can definietly get into a US MD school with a 34 MCAT and a 3.4 (you should probably consider increasing your GPA; take extra classes or something).

Edit: If I recall correctly, anesthesiology is a rather competitive residency. It will be incredibly difficult to land one if you study overseas.

Getting into SGU isn't that hard. Can you sign loan papers and have an MCAT >20? Then you can get admitted.

Getting into SGU will be easy for you. You could take the MCAT now, get between a 22-25 and probably get in. However, getting an Anesthesiology residency from a Caribbean school would be near impossible even if you were to do fantastic on Step I.

I would recommend trying to score 30+ on the MCAT and get your GPA up to a 3.4 to give yourself a shot at MD if you are set on Anesthesiology. However, you should see if that institutional action will be a problem for US MD.

Caribbean MD is a pretty unsure place to be at the moment. With US MD class sizes increasing and residency spots staying relatively stagnant, getting an anesthesia residency out of a Caribbean school is something you can't even get close to counting on. You're better off improving your MCAT scores, taking more class or an SMP to bump GPA, and go for low-tier MD or for good DO schools.

In terms of anesthesia residencies, the pecking order is certainly US MD > US DO > Caribbean MD

Thanks for the advice guys.

However, I should have stressed that I am not interested in taking more time to complete a masters program or taking classes to bump up my GPA. I realize that a Caribbean MD is far from ideal, but I have already decided that it will be fine for me (and the cost is not an issue - time is my issue - I want to start in January). I don't see why Anesthesiology would be nearly impossible coming from SGU (3% of their matches are into Anesthesia and most American schools match about 8-10% into anesthesia). These do not seem like impossible numbers given strong studying. I called SGU's office and they told me the same thing. I can study (I was first in my high school class), I just spent way too much time partying in undergrad.

My main concern is how high of an MCAT score should I be aiming for and how should I address the academic violation on my app. If there are any SGU students or counselors who can answer this question that would be great. Thanks

When you consider 3% anesthesiology out of 45% overall placement, the picture shifts. In US MD schools, 8-10% anesthesiology is with 98% or higher residency placement. If you equalize for total residency placements, your odds from SGU are about 7 times less to get in to anesthesiology.

That's what we are saying...

Originally Posted by Ironmandoc

When you consider 3% anesthesiology out of 45% overall placement, the picture shifts. In US MD schools, 8-10% anesthesiology is with 98% or higher residency placement. If you equalize for total residency placements, your odds from SGU are about 7 times less to get in to anesthesiology.

That's what we are saying...

What he said.

A friend of mine was at the top of his class at SGU and did rather well on his Steps. He got a residency at an amazing medical university in the US - however, he's doing family medicine. If being an anesthesiologist is your dream, it will be near impossible to get it out of SGU. Spending a year to boost up your credentials will be worth it. What's the rush?

Sorry, now I am a little bit confused. SGU told me that they have a 92% match rate for students straight out of school and a 98% match rate for students after 2 years out. Obviously, students going to SGU are of a lower caliber/ are less disciplined and dedicated, but I don't see why SGU is considered a death sentence. Granted, the vast majority go on to internal medicine and family practice, but I think that is all that most people who go to SGU want... I definitely want to hear all aspects and warnings, but it seems like SGU gets a worse rap then it deserves... Is it really that bad? My impression was that a student who goes to SGU and works hard and makes sure he is one of the best can eventually either transfer out or land in at least a semi-competitive residency, like surgery or anesthesia...

Originally Posted by trey57735

Sorry, now I am a little bit confused. SGU told me that they have a 92% match rate for students straight out of school and a 98% match rate for students after 2 years out. Obviously, students going to SGU are of a lower caliber/ are less disciplined and dedicated, but I don't see why SGU is considered a death sentence. Granted, the vast majority go on to internal medicine and family practice, but I think that is all that most people who go to SGU want... I definitely want to hear all aspects and warnings, but it seems like SGU gets a worse rap then it deserves... Is it really that bad? My impression was that a student who goes to SGU and works hard and makes sure he is one of the best can eventually either transfer out or land in at least a semi-competitive residency, like surgery or anesthesia...

A couple things. One, you're making a huge assumption that you will just "work hard". Everyone going to SGU is planning on doing the same thing. Secondly, that 92% number only includes people who actually attempt to match. Much of SGU's entering classes don't make it to that point, due to numerous tests, and a high attrition rate.

Originally Posted by SoulinNeed

A couple things. One, you're making a huge assumption that you will just "work hard". Everyone going to SGU is planning on doing the same thing. Secondly, that 92% number only includes people who actually attempt to match. Much of SGU's entering classes don't make it to that point, due to numerous tests, and a high attrition rate.

What I have bolded is exactly something SGU won't tell you.

Every medical school has an attrition rate, but the US med schools have a very small one. The professors and doctors do everything in their power to make sure you get through medical school. SGU just wants your money.

It's sad, but that's just how it is. Half of the people probably get dropped by the second year (I cannot verify this last sentence, it is just my assumption).

Last year, the NRMP data showed less than 50% of IMG's placing in US residencies, with about 1.6% in anesthesiology.

Here's another lie Caribbean schools don't tell you:
They tout a 94% USMLE Step 1 passing rate. What they don't tell you is that they only let students who they think will actually pass take the test. So, out of 800-1000 students in each class they usually only let 100-150 take their boards.

Amazingly deceptive isn't it?

Originally Posted by Ironmandoc

Last year, the NRMP data showed less than 50% of IMG's placing in US residencies, with about 1.6% in anesthesiology.

Here's another lie Caribbean schools don't tell you:
They tout a 94% USMLE Step 1 passing rate. What they don't tell you is that they only let students who they think will actually pass take the test. So, out of 800-1000 students in each class they usually only let 100-150 take their boards.

Amazingly deceptive isn't it?

Damn I did not know this...I feel bad for my friends that are over there. Wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars, and may not even come out of it an MD

Is that true for all Caribbean med schools? I thought that SGU and Ross are generally regarded as the better Carribbean med schools...

Just look at their attrition rates...

I pulled the residency numbers out of the NRMP for 2011.

Isn't it amazing how different the real numbers are from the numbers they publish.

Honestly, I'd rather become a nurse anesthetist before going to the Caribbean for an MD, but if that's what you want, be my guest. Your chances are extremely lower than becoming a DO, but you seem to be concerned about letters to make the rational choice.

3% of the Caribbean does make it into anesthesia, but that's 3% of the 45% that match which were 50% of the entering class. By now, since you've experienced undergrad and the competition, I would expect you to understand that being first in your High School is meaningless, so keep in mind the very realistic possibility that your chances are limited to primary care fields. Don't think that "being from brown" your 3.2 is "actually like a 4.0 at University of (State)" and you'll smoke your SGU competition.

Either way, good luck. I suggest you just take the MCAT. From speaking to their rep, they told me as long as your sGPA is >3.0 and MCAT is a >24, you're pretty much in.

In case you don't notice your PM's but are checking this thread...
Brown Alumna
Engineering ScB
Low GPA
Just finished up my 3rd year of med school
...so, been there done that, & I agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't go Caribbean if you haven't exhausted your other options (which it sounds like you haven't).

I am so glad that I decided to actually post here. I was too shy at first to post because I thought you guys would tear me apart about the academic violation thing! lol. Well THANK YOU ALL for the incredible advice.

The Caribbean is not the way to go!
Even SGU's Match List is Atrocious

btw, I'm gay, and the Caribbean is not a very gay-friendly place!

I would not be happy if I went to a Carib school and ended up in some Family Physician (or even anesthesia) residency in Alabama. I am really not too familiar with DO schools, but can anyone give any advice. What are the downsides to being a DO? I know they have their own residencies, but are those also really competitive or something? What are good DO schools? Also, I can still apply DO for 2013, right?

What should I do to make myself a strong candidate at a good DO school? Or is it a better idea to keep trying for MD? BTW, I can care less about the DO initials over MD. I want to make sure that I have a good opportunity to pursue whatever residency I find out I like in medical school. Is DO School good for that? Any DO's or DO students here?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by trey57735

..... I am not interested in DO schools, and I really would like to attend SGU over Ross or AUC.....

Originally Posted by trey57735

..... BTW, I can care less about the DO initials over MD.

I'll go ahead and call BS. Anyway, there are reasons to go MD and reasons to go DO. Research this yourself.

When are you taking the MCAT? your GPA is low for DO schools but with an early app and and a decent score you could get an acceptance, however with you planning on taking it in "a couple months," coupling a 27 to your 3.2 gpa is drastically different than coupling a 31. Also, you make no real mention of ECs. How were the last few semesters of school? what state of residency? you mention anes. is this your only desire? that's going to be tough. need a lot more info. also that cheating is going to be hard to overcome. not sure about that.

Originally Posted by Ironmandoc

Last year, the NRMP data showed less than 50% of IMG's placing in US residencies, with about 1.6% in anesthesiology.

Here's another lie Caribbean schools don't tell you:
They tout a 94% USMLE Step 1 passing rate. What they don't tell you is that they only let students who they think will actually pass take the test. So, out of 800-1000 students in each class they usually only let 100-150 take their boards.

Amazingly deceptive isn't it?

I agree with your NRMP data but SGU's residency posting shows a MUCH higher number of matches than 100-150 (assuming all matched), which obviously requires the students to take the boards. Can you clarify this please?

Originally Posted by challenger22

I agree with your NRMP data but SGU's residency posting shows a MUCH higher number of matches than 100-150 (assuming all matched), which obviously requires the students to take the boards. Can you clarify this please?

Don't those residency postings also usually include reapplicants from previous years?

Originally Posted by challenger22

I agree with your NRMP data but SGU's residency posting shows a MUCH higher number of matches than 100-150 (assuming all matched), which obviously requires the students to take the boards. Can you clarify this please?

Maybe that is because they have an enormous class size...still doesn't matter. When 50% of your students don't make it past year one, 50% don't pass Step 1, and last year 49.1% of US IMGs were places according to the NRMP, I think my assertion speaks for itself. Take a look before ever considering the Caribbean

Originally Posted by Ironmandoc

Maybe that is because they have an enormous class size...still doesn't matter. When 50% of your students don't make it past year one, 50% don't pass Step 1, and last year 49.1% of US IMGs were places according to the NRMP, I think my assertion speaks for itself. Take a look before ever considering the Caribbean

Agree with this 100%

To everyone even considering the Carib to become a doctor, please don't go there. It is a money sink and the training is completely inferior to US MD/DO programs. If you cannot make it into one of these, you really need to reconsider medicine. I personally think they should not exist because they profit off of desperate premeds. Buckle down and get to work boosting the weak parts of your app. The average age in medical school is high so for everyone who is 22 and thinks that they don't want to fall behind will not be. Retake the classes you need to, retake the MCAT, get a job, volunteer, etc. Hell the average age in my class at U of A is 28 this year!!!!!!

Please do yourself a favor and take this advice.

Originally Posted by mcm628

Agree with this 100%

To everyone even considering the Carib to become a doctor, please don't go there. It is a money sink and the training is completely inferior to US MD/DO programs. If you cannot make it into one of these, you really need to reconsider medicine. I personally think they should not exist because they profit off of desperate premeds. Buckle down and get to work boosting the weak parts of your app. The average age in medical school is high so for everyone who is 22 and thinks that they don't want to fall behind will not be. Retake the classes you need to, retake the MCAT, get a job, volunteer, etc. Hell the average age in my class at U of A is 28 this year!!!!!!

Please do yourself a favor and take this advice.

AVOID CARIBBEAN SCHOOLS LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!!!

like many others posted, their numbers are deceptive.
Another thing to consider is that when you you read about SGU's residency numbers, there's a little asterisk that mentions 39% were from pre-matching. Starting for the 2013 match, no more prematching ,so even a landing a primary care spot after you manage to avoid failing out like 40% of your fellow students and acing the boards is still pretty slim.
Getting an anesthesiology residency...impossible. Better off going D.O. by the time you graduate they might have their own residency for Anesthesia.

Originally Posted by notbobtrustme

Getting into SGU isn't that hard. Can you sign loan papers and have an MCAT >20? Then you can get admitted.

I heard that SGU average mcat is 26...

Originally Posted by BestDoctorEver

I heard that SGU average mcat is 26...

Remember that SGU has a lot of Canadian students. In Canada, anything under a 3.8/33 is pretty much a Caribbean sentence.

Originally Posted by trey57735

Thanks for the advice guys.

However, I should have stressed that I am not interested in taking more time to complete a masters program or taking classes to bump up my GPA. I realize that a Caribbean MD is far from ideal, but I have already decided that it will be fine for me (and the cost is not an issue - time is my issue - I want to start in January).

The truth is if you do plan to go Caribbean you will be spending A LOT of time trying to get to the same lvl of competitiveness as in country applicants.

It is best to boost your credential(UG/G classes) now and not deal with the troubles later on.

You have a whole life of practicing medicine a head of you, I doubt taking that extra years of improvement will be that much of loss.

Originally Posted by qwerty2012

The truth is if you do plan to go Caribbean you will be spending A LOT of time trying to get to the same lvl of competitiveness as in country applicants.

It is best to boost your credential(UG/G classes) now and not deal with the troubles later on.

You have a whole life of practicing medicine a head of you, I doubt taking that extra years of improvement will be that much of loss.

I understand that cost may not be an issue for you (I am fortunate enough to have med school cost covered many times over as well). The point is that 1.) money is still money, and although you too may have the 35K PER BLOCK (at SGU there are 5 blocks before step 1 alone) there is no reason to waste it. 2.) I really want to take the chance to make it extremely clear to any premeds that are still hanging on to the idea that "well if I just make it into the carib, and pass, and get a residency that I will be an MD, and not have to be a DO" IT IS NOT TRUE. You should see how attendings look at Carib graduates, it is awful. DO = MD, it is just a fact. The only group that still thinks there is a difference are premeds who obviously have not spent enough time shadowing in hospitals.

MD=DO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hell>>>>>>>>>>>Tucson>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Carib

Just curious, are you a non traditional student? I suppose that would make sense then if you feel a bit more rushed to start. But you will be starting an inferior program that is a waste of time. And do you want surgery? Kiss it goodbye. "But I heard this one time a carib student went into neuro....." NO, BAD PREMED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN FOR YOU. Everyone thinks they will be the 1/million, but you won't be.

Ultimately do what you need to do, and trust me, I hope it works for you and best of luck

I completely agree.

US DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caribbean MD every day of the week

Originally Posted by mcm628

I understand that cost may not be an issue for you (I am fortunate enough to have med school cost covered many times over as well). The point is that 1.) money is still money, and although you too may have the 35K PER BLOCK (at SGU there are 5 blocks before step 1 alone) there is no reason to waste it. 2.) I really want to take the chance to make it extremely clear to any premeds that are still hanging on to the idea that "well if I just make it into the carib, and pass, and get a residency that I will be an MD, and not have to be a DO" IT IS NOT TRUE. You should see how attendings look at Carib graduates, it is awful. DO = MD, it is just a fact. The only group that still thinks there is a difference are premeds who obviously have not spent enough time shadowing in hospitals.

MD=DO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hell>>>>>>>>>>>Tucson>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Carib

Just curious, are you a non traditional student? I suppose that would make sense then if you feel a bit more rushed to start. But you will be starting an inferior program that is a waste of time. And do you want surgery? Kiss it goodbye. "But I heard this one time a carib student went into neuro....." NO, BAD PREMED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN FOR YOU. Everyone thinks they will be the 1/million, but you won't be.

Ultimately do what you need to do, and trust me, I hope it works for you and best of luck

Completely agree with your POV here. The transition to a way of thinking where MD=DO is well on it's way, I wouldn't say it's 100% there yet though. The last remaining stigma simply arises from the fact that it is easier to get into US DO than US MD. Once the DO admissions process is just as competitive as MD, everything will be equal. It's the same thing as going to a top 20 undergrad versus a less-known state supported school. You still have that 4 year degree and could very well be the smartest or best employee out of the bunch, but unfortunately people's first reaction is different. I fully support MD=DO and don't mind at all having DO's compete for traditionally MD residencies, and while many pre-meds don't like the idea simply because it lacks the 'MD' tag (which is the absolute wrong way to look at it), even the people that logically understand that they are the same thing realize how much less strenuous the admissions requirements are.. and those are the stem of their doubts.

To get back on topic, I completely agree with all other parts of your post and that US DO >>>> Caribbean MD in about every way.

Originally Posted by Ironmandoc

Maybe that is because they have an enormous class size...still doesn't matter. When 50% of your students don't make it past year one, 50% don't pass Step 1, and last year 49.1% of US IMGs were places according to the NRMP, I think my assertion speaks for itself. Take a look before ever considering the Caribbean

Please at least be consistent with what you say. You first said that their class size is 800-1000. Now you're saying MAYBE they have an "enormous" class size (whatever that means). So you're basically negating yourself about their class size of max. 1000. I'm not sure if people should make decisions based on MAYBEs and doubts. Where do you get the information that 50% don't make it past year one and 50% don't pass step 1? Do you have any evidence for that? At least SGU publishes the full name of people who obtained residency (it's 790 for 2012). You can copy the data to Excel to see if anyone of them are from previous years. If it's you, you'd say that they're making up the names to trick you!!! About the NRMP match rate for U.S. IMGs, it includes data from ALL Caribbean students who attempted to match. More established schools like SGU do a much better job than others for placing graduates into residency. So one shouldn't generalize. Of course, attending an off-shore medical school is not the ideal way to become a physician but at the same time I don't think posting information without any evidence is fair to those who truly want to become a physician.

Come on, man. Don't be that guy that tries to redirect an argument by cherry picking words. Look at the way Ironmandoc responds to your previous question. He is arguing that the reason SGU match list has some good matches is MAYBE because they have such a large class class. This is similar to the lottery where if you have 1200 tickets (avg SGU class size), you'll have a better chance of winning than if you only had 120 tickets (avg US MD/DO class size). In no way did he ever imply that SGU has a small class size.