Uncomfortable conversations with old friends...

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I am copying this verbatim from a SMS conversation from last night that I had with an old friend I haven't spoken to in close to 3 years, since I started medical school. We were pretty close for a few years when we worked together... I'm just starting my fourth year, doing an away rotation back home so I wanted to see how he's doing and catch up...


Friend: Wow man, look at that. Four years passed and you did something extraordinary with that time.
Me: Yeah it's crazy, I can't believe it some times.
Friend: You would be at [old company name] *but now you are a freakin doctor.
Me: Ya they would have worked me to death...
Me: Now I can work myself to death
Me: Haha
Friend: You'll be making well over 100k you son of a bitch!!
Me: Yeah man but I still have this hellish residency to look forward to.
Friend: That doesn't comfort me at all. It's temporary. You are going to be wildly successful and I hate you already.
Me: Hahahha well it was really hard.
Me: And I'm less than half way there...
Friend: You're a fourth year man I don't see how that's half way.
Friend: You get paid and it's not as grueling as med school, right?
Me: Well depends on how you look at it.
Me: It'll be a lot of hours but i am hoping I enjoy it

[End of conversation]

This conversation made me feel very uncomfortable. And this isn't the first time I have had one like this (with him or others), although this guy tends to not be shy about it and is often self deprecating. Does this stop at some point, or will I always be seen by your average person as pretentious or extremely lucky (fwiw I absolutely do feel very lucky)?

I didn't come from a group of friends who are all lawyers doctors in investment bankers. I was a non traditional student so my nonmed friends are about as varied and average as they can be, either working at their office jobs or looking for work... A few are just out of law school and struggling to make what residents make...

Will I only have doctor friends in the future *or what? Am I being hypersensitive? Anybody else experience something similar?

.

I got the same kind of posse. My best friend is gonna become a nurse so that'll be cool. Big dude too.

I'm also a nontrad like yourself and most of my friends are blue collar, non-medical, or in entry level BA/BS jobs. For me, it's easier to just not discuss medicine with them. If they're interested, they can drive the conversation toward my career plans, but 99% of the time that doesn't happen. In general, it's just easier to discuss things that we have in common. If I was in a conversation like the one you posted, I probably would've changed the subject earlier, maybe that's just me.

I guess it all depends on the personalities of your individual friends. When talking about med school, my college friends want to hear about gross medical stories (unfortunately I don't have many yet). None of them have brought up money. Then again, none of them are exactly starving either.

If your friend is making you uncomfortable, just change the subject. Eventually they'll figure out that you don't like to talk about it.

I don't think you need to avoid people who aren't doctors. I came from blue collar roots too and some of my friends/family do "get it", especially the ones who are closest to me and have seen what it has been like. It can be refreshing to spend time with people outside the world of medicine to get a break from work.
Some of your friends may just need more information about what's really involved in medical training to realize that the "rich doctors" aren't really getting away with something. It's pretty obvious that your friend in this case doesn't really understand what's involved in training to be a doctor if he thinks that residency is easier than med school. Sure, it is nice to be making money rather than going further in debt, but residents are not exactly rolling in dough (especially if you're starting to pay off loans) and we do work hard for it. When people look at you and expect you to know what to do because now you're "Doctor", it IS stressful in a way that many jobs aren't.

But, really, if you did have a normal 40 hr workweek job he probably would still think that you had it easier than he does, just because I think it's human nature for people to think that the grass is greener on the other side and that other people "have it easy".

It can be tough when talking to somone outside of medicine, even non-physicians. Medicine occupies so much of your time and attention that it is the first and last thing you think about. Secondly, as a physician you are more educated than the vast majority of people you come in contact with and can be hard to relate with other people.

Other issues I have experienced personally is reuniting with friends and family members who have dicked around and have accomplished jack. Asking them what has been going on always results in awkward answers.

Old friend "I just quit my job as fry-cook at church's chicken because my manager is a bitch."

Me: Awesome

Most of my convos go like this:

Me: I'm a pre med. I'll be a doctor some day.

Friend: *Falls off chair laughing* Oh, gawd! Too funny! Can't breathe!

Originally Posted by Fakebook

I am copying this verbatim from a SMS conversation from last night that I had with an old friend I haven't spoken to in close to 3 years, since I started medical school. We were pretty close for a few years when we worked together... I'm just starting my fourth year, doing an away rotation back home so I wanted to see how he's doing and catch up...


Friend: Wow man, look at that. Four years passed and you did something extraordinary with that time.
Me: Yeah it's crazy, I can't believe it some times.
Friend: You would be at [old company name] *but now you are a freakin doctor.
Me: Ya they would have worked me to death...
Me: Now I can work myself to death
Me: Haha
Friend: You'll be making well over 100k you son of a bitch!!
Me: Yeah man but I still have this hellish residency to look forward to.
Friend: That doesn't comfort me at all. It's temporary. You are going to be wildly successful and I hate you already.
Me: Hahahha well it was really hard.
Me: And I'm less than half way there...
Friend: You're a fourth year man I don't see how that's half way.
Friend: You get paid and it's not as grueling as med school, right?
Me: Well depends on how you look at it.
Me: It'll be a lot of hours but i am hoping I enjoy it

[End of conversation]

This conversation made me feel very uncomfortable. And this isn't the first time I have had one like this (with him or others), although this guy tends to not be shy about it and is often self deprecating. Does this stop at some point, or will I always be seen by your average person as pretentious or extremely lucky (fwiw I absolutely do feel very lucky)?

I didn't come from a group of friends who are all lawyers doctors in investment bankers. I was a non traditional student so my nonmed friends are about as varied and average as they can be, either working at their office jobs or looking for work... A few are just out of law school and struggling to make what residents make...

Will I only have doctor friends in the future *or what? Am I being hypersensitive? Anybody else experience something similar?

I don't know...Not that I think your doing this, but it sure seemed like a fair amount of my classmates came off as self absorbed with a martyr complex. Especially when it came to stuff like Facebook and SMS. Seemed like so many of em' had status update after status update about how awesome they were for working so hard, or how nervous they were for that exam, or how much it sucks working on a saturday, or how awesome life as 4th year is, etc. After a while it starts to sound narcissistic.

I would just caution to be careful even joking about how you'll be "working yourself to death", or how much "residency is going to suck", to people outside of medicine. I think to some degree it can come off as condescending, because everyone is human and has their own struggles they are dealing with.... so most people don't want to hear how special we are because we work so much harder than the average guy.

But I'd be willing to bet this person and almost everyone around you is sincerely happy for you. Some people just have different ways of giving you a high five I guess.

Oh...And make sure to ask your friend how he or she is doing too.

Just my two cents..

For the most part, it doesn't really come up much. Then again, most of the (non-medical) people I interact with aren't friends from before medical school. Often times I field questions about what I do, but most of the time they don't understand (more so explaining how I'm in medical school but I'm out where I am, away from the school, doing rotations). Anyway, it's pretty easy to steer away from. A lot of the minutia people won't understand and don't care to, which is fine. There's a lot of minutia about things other people do that I don't care to know, either.

Originally Posted by seelee

It can be tough when talking to somone outside of medicine, even non-physicians. Medicine occupies so much of your time and attention that it is the first and last thing you think about. Secondly, as a physician you are more educated than the vast majority of people you come in contact with and can be hard to relate with other people.

Other issues I have experienced personally is reuniting with friends and family members who have dicked around and have accomplished jack. Asking them what has been going on always results in awkward answers.

Old friend "I just quit my job as fry-cook at church's chicken because my manager is a bitch."

Me: Awesome

This is really the only time it comes up and just like you described it. It's awkward as hell. I try to make it less awkward, but I think those who, as you described, haven't done anything in the past 10 years of their life since high school, they have a tendency to be somewhat insecure and get the vibe that you're being an ass to them in subtle ways. It's awkward, but I'm genuinely interested in what people have been up to.

I also think you didn't need to be so negative about it. I would have said something like "Yeah, I'm very fortunate to be in this career. It wasn't without some sacrifices, but it's worth it."

I bet he wouldn't have harped on the pay after that. A lot of people work 60 hour weeks, 2 jobs, etc and will never see 6 figures. You may have had to go through school, debt, and residency, but coming out the other side leads to a better situation than most people will realize.

I think you guys are really over-analyzing this. If you saw your old friend in college star in a TV show, you would probably have a similar conversation and congratulate him. They usually aren't insecure when they congratulate you (well the OP's friend did come off a little insecure); you are just being awkward. Just accept the praise and say thank you.

Originally Posted by seelee

Old friend "I just quit my job as fry-cook at church's chicken because my manager is a bitch."

Me: Awesome

You don't have dick to say because you feel better than them, the whole time you're talking.

Originally Posted by armybound

I also think you didn't need to be so negative about it. I would have said something like "Yeah, I'm very fortunate to be in this career. It wasn't without some sacrifices, but it's worth it."

I bet he wouldn't have harped on the pay after that. A lot of people work 60 hour weeks, 2 jobs, etc and will never see 6 figures. You may have had to go through school, debt, and residency, but coming out the other side leads to a better situation than most people will realize.

I gotta kind of agree here, although don't take that to mean it's all your fault.

Just think about the reverse situation. If you knew someone who was off "living the dream" by your understanding (perhaps running a hotel in some tropical location or inventing amazing new products at Apple or something), you would be focusing on all the positive things that they have in their life, such as the great salary, status, location, benefits, etc. Unless you were genuinely jealous and hateful towards them, you would be interested in hearing about these things that seem so great from your perspective.

In reality, maybe that person hates their job or their boss or wishes the sacrifices weren't so great. Would you want to hear about those things in a conversation with them? No. Not initially at least. You have this image of them being very "successful" and "lucky", and to hear them marginalize all the benefits by focusing on the sacrifices makes them seem unappreciative of what they have. And it puts you in the "consoling" role, where you try to show them how great you see things from your side, in an attempt to cheer them up or help them focus more on the positives. If they're not receptive to your attempt, you'll probably feel even more like they're underappreciative, now both of their "great" life and of you trying to be nice with your comments.

I guess my point is that, there are going to be many people out there who don't understand how grueling a medical education can be, and they probably don't care to know. You're very successful from their perspective, and they would much rather be happy for you and hear about your happiness than help you sift through all the problems that are worrying you at this very moment. Show appreciation for their interest in your life by sharing some of the happy/fun/interesting parts of it with them. Then you can continue by showing an interest in what they're doing, asking about what good things are going on in their life. Even if you're not that close with the person any more, reciprocation is still important for at least maintaining the relationship that you have. And who knows? One day you may have the time or common interests to get closer with them again. Worth a shot.

Summary: People you're not close with don't care to hear about the pitfalls of the "great life" that you appear to be leading. Focus on the positives in your conversations, but don't go overboard and talk only about yourself. Change the subject to ask about the good things in their life as a "thank you" for them taking an interest in yours.

Give this approach a try, and if you still get resistance, maybe you're dealing with someone who is not really that happy for you in the first place!

Cheers.

[QUOTE=High Roller;12685371]I don't know...Not that I think your doing this, but it sure seemed like a fair amount of my classmates came off as self absorbed with a martyr complex. Especially when it came to stuff like Facebook and SMS. Seemed like so many of em' had status update after status update about how awesome they were for working so hard, or how nervous they were for that exam, or how much it sucks working on a saturday, or how awesome life as 4th year is, etc. After a while it starts to sound narcissistic.
[QUOTE]

Although the OP may not be trying to act like this. This is true for so many medical students. Many times when my classmates did their nights in L and D or worked their 30 hour trauma call they posted about it on facebook. People post on facebook for a reason (and its not just so you can remember what you did). Its because they want their ego stroked, or want people to feel bad for them, or to think they are super cool because you are in medical school. The fact is most other people in this world don't care what we are doing. They are trying to live their life just like we are. And, honestly, as medical students we are lucky as **** to be doing something that will pay well throughout our life, allow us to help people, and be fun if you choose the right specialty.

Most people in medical school, me included, could use a huge dose of humility.

Although the OP may not be trying to act like this. This is true for so many medical students. Many times when my classmates did their nights in L and D or worked their 30 hour trauma call they posted about it on facebook. People post on facebook for a reason (and its not just so you can remember what you did). Its because they want their ego stroked, or want people to feel bad for them, or to think they are super cool because you are in medical school. The fact is most other people in this world don't care what we are doing. They are trying to live their life just like we are. And, honestly, as medical students we are lucky as **** to be doing something that will pay well throughout our life, allow us to help people, and be fun if you choose the right specialty.

Most people in medical school, me included, could use a huge dose of humility.[/QUOTE]

I feel ya.

I completely stopped using Facebook except for contact info/networking purposes. Don't even look anymore. Seems like all the great things you want to find are buried under a pile of useless status updates by the same 10-20 people. No....I don't care about what you had for lunch or how much you want to take a nap today. I wanna hear from those old friends about that kid they're expecting, or see pics from the once in lifetime vacation they just took, or hear about a new job they just landed. The real stuff.

And amen on your final sentence. Medicine is awesome.

Originally Posted by seelee

It can be tough when talking to somone outside of medicine, even non-physicians. Medicine occupies so much of your time and attention that it is the first and last thing you think about. Secondly, as a physician you are more educated than the vast majority of people you come in contact with and can be hard to relate with other people.

Other issues I have experienced personally is reuniting with friends and family members who have dicked around and have accomplished jack. Asking them what has been going on always results in awkward answers.

Old friend "I just quit my job as fry-cook at church's chicken because my manager is a bitch."

Me: Awesome

I know exactly what you mean.


Cheers!

I totally understand, I just tried to talk with some old friends on facebook. One was upset she couldnt find a car so she could get around. Ahh well least it helps me to realize that maybe things are not better out there.

The martyr complex really needs to go. As a future physician, you'll be in the top few percentile of earners. You worked hard, but a lot of people work hard - my dad broke his back working 60-80 hours a week for decades to give me a better life - he could have done what I did but didn't have the opportunities. He worked harder than I ever will, and making **** money. The difference is that you will be rewarded for your work. That puts you in a privileged position. Recognize it.

lol...he's just playing along with you and stroking ya, like any good friend or prostitute would. No one gives a (major) crap that you are goin to be a doctor, really. Everyone has their own lives to worry about.

[Nvm

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

I don't think complaining about being in a crappy, hard phase of your life is a 'martyr complex'. Marines bitch about training, new parents complain that their kids never sleep, and Med students talk a lot about hating Med school. You know, consciously, that this is a necessary evil and is getting you where you want to go but that doesn't change the fact that your immediate situation sucks. People tend to discuss it when their situation sucks.

Honestly it also makes better conversation. Its funnier/more interesting to hear about someone's anxieties than it is to hear about how awesome their life is right now. You every notice how many books/shows there are about intern year and how few there are about being a private practice attending?

It is interesting. Whenever someone recognizes an accomplishment we are so quick to try to downplay it.

I have been guilty of this. Perhaps I do this because I am afraid that my accomplishment will make them feel bad about themselves and so I downplay it in an attempt to make them feel better.

I don't know if it is the best idea though. When I encounter someone who has accomplished something great, I am sincerely happy for them. Maybe a better response would be to graciously thank them for their congratulations, acknowledge how hard you have worked, and express gratitude for having the opportunities.

Nvm

Originally Posted by seelee

Perhaps I do this because I am afraid that my accomplishment will make them feel bad about themselves and so I downplay it in an attempt to make them feel better.

I don't know if it is the best idea though. When I encounter someone who has accomplished something great, I am sincerely happy for them.

Exactly. It's like the asking the Harvard kid where they goto school and they respond "Boston." 99/100 times, people are just making conversation. You don't have to downplay your accomplishments for fear of hurting someones feelings. If it actually bothers them, they have serious insecurities (and if you actually feel above others by being med students, you do too)